With me, it seems that the particular perks may depend on what really drives the splinter group leader, and the perks they hold to may be telling.
I have no doubt that some are driven by the kind of perks you describe because it was just part of what TWI did for it's very top leadership and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree in this case.
But based on my experience Skyrider if the splinter group leader thrives on owning people;lock,stock, and barrel along with being so hung up on being "The Man" that he will break down and try to eliminate every single normal and healthy familial relationship in order to be the only center of authority, attention, and loyalty for every single member it may be even more pernicious than simple greed.
Not much different than the cr@p that goes on in corporate America.
"Oh, look at me!. I've decided to forego my salary this year. Aren't I just wonderful?-----Shhhhh! No need to ruffle feathers by telling people about the 47 MILLION dollar bonus I'll be accepting."
I started a thread awhile ago about the "splinter business"...I think these guys are lazy lowlifes who have avoided finding a "real" job in favor of following their "fadder in da werd"...they set themselves up with a cushy existance at the expense of the naive and the gullible.
Like Leonard Cohen wrote..."...everybody wants a box of chocolates and a long stem rose..."
These c** k suckers take advantage of a person's quest and desire to know God by feeding them their filthy doctrines of "send me your money"...Every last one of them can kiss my arse.
Like in corporate America or politics, the splinter group top man position comes with lots of perks. Sure, there is the obvious adulation and a cushy desk job.....but the bigger the "sphere of their reach," the more their travel excursions and petty cash accounts get blurred, mixing "business" with pleasure.
Maybe, just maybe......there are a few honest leaders out there (cough, cough), but I am rather skeptical since the wierwille legacy left us in a wake of exploitation and destruction.
If there is "growing work in California" (and the group is headquartered in Michigan)......well, it sure is nice to go visit the "believers" in California, ESPECIALLY IN FEBRUARY. Or, if there is a "nibble of interest" in South Carolina.....well, maybe they should travel to Myrtle Beach just to check it out??
Heck......wierwille went traveling all over.....deer hunting, elk hunting, motorcycle riding in canada, indianapolis 500 races, etc. on twi's expense. Nice gig with no accountability. And, all these splinter groups (100? or more???).....all these ex-corps leaders are made in the image of wierwille?
So.....hypothetically, what if the top guy's salary is $55,000 a year. What else?
...1) All hotel/motel expenses paid
...2) All meals/snacks/drinks expenses paid
...3) All gas and/or mileage reimbursement
...4) Possibly, a "ministry" car to use....(errands/grocery trips/soccer practise of kids)
...5) All phone/utilities/office supplies....."ministry" expense
...6) All meals during a conference weekend
...7) Petty cash for overnight guests.....pizza anyone?
...8) Plants for meeting.....later, go to personal use
...9) Extra food/snack/ from conference luncheon....go to personal refrigerator
...10) Etc. Etc. Etc.
No......$55,000 may not seem like much, UNTIL you really look at ALL THE PERKS.
Oh, that tax-exempt status is a gift that just keeps on giving!!!
Please tell me that this is not happening??????
Many of the splinter group leaders i've encounters look like they're tortured by doubt and deep remorse . . . the honest ones anyways. On top of that they have to work with hurt, confused, needy people without any real training. I can't imagine that this is a dream job . . .
I started a thread awhile ago about the "splinter business"...I think these guys are lazy lowlifes who have avoided finding a "real" job .....
Groucho......yeah, I agree with you that "lazy lowlifes" has alot to do with it. And further, wierwille groomed these men to take it further than he would.......and, they too, saw the motorcoaches, motorcycles, fawning women everywhere, rock-star status, and dare I say that some had ALREADY PARTAKEN of the "fruit from the pear (pair) tree."
Of course, add those elements of arrogance and elitism and DISTANCE (where many, who live in other faraway states tithe to the splinter group) that permeated twi to its core, the culture is ripe for picking bushels of fruit and hiding it in one's own barn. I mean, c'mon......even during the Geer power-grab era, the Indiana limb guy had part-time staff people and volunteers help restore his boat!!!! Sure, he broke away from twi....only to put his shingle on cgeer's street. Someone told me years ago that he quit paying the cgeer franchise fees and is now has his own splinter sub-group.
Besides......after 15 years or so in twi (and a resume that sucked), I wonder how many of them had envisioned STRIKING OUT ON THEIR OWN FOR YEARS??????
Groucho......yeah, I agree with you that "lazy lowlifes" has alot to do with it. And further, wierwille groomed these men to take it further than he would.......and, they too, saw the motorcoaches, motorcycles, fawning women everywhere, rock-star status, and dare I say that some had ALREADY PARTAKEN of the "fruit from the pear (pair) tree."
Of course, add those elements of arrogance and elitism and DISTANCE (where many, who live in other faraway states tithe to the splinter group) that permeated twi to its core, the culture is ripe for picking bushels of fruit and hiding it in one's own barn. I mean, c'mon......even during the Geer power-grab era, the Indiana limb guy had part-time staff people and volunteers help restore his boat!!!! Sure, he broke away from twi....only to put his shingle on cgeer's street. Someone told me years ago that he quit paying the cgeer franchise fees and is now has his own splinter sub-group.
Besides......after 15 years or so in twi (and a resume that sucked), I wonder how many of them had envisioned STRIKING OUT ON THEIR OWN FOR YEARS??????
They're not all lazy lowlifes . . . John Shroyer . . . . He already had a job when he started CFF . . . people joined his thing in droves because he treated them with respect and gave them a place to connect with old friends and feel peace and meaning. Many people left after they found closure. He was ok with that. He called CFF a church and regularly worked with other ministries in the area (his daughter does interdenominational meetings at CFF still). Furthermore, the guy was not lazy at all. There were so many old wayfers that wanted his attention . . . sometimes hed put in 80 hours a week. I remember him almost falling asleep during meetings he was so worn out.
They're not all lazy lowlifes . . . John Shroyer . . . . He already had a job when he started CFF . . . people joined his thing in droves because he treated them with respect and gave them a place to connect with old friends and feel peace and meaning.
It seems to me......CFF markets itself as TWI-Lite.
1) Same twig style.....same little teachings....same manifestations
2) Same pyramid structure.....same foundational class format.....other classes
3) Same call for tithing faithfully, etc.
4) Same wierwille adulation.....two wierwille kids give support
5) Same attempts to grasp "good ole days"......mock rocks????
Oh gawd, I love the "Hard work" invocation, so often heard amongst the Way Elite. While they ALWAYS paid obeisance to the concept, I never saw any of 'em actually engage in it.
I've known a lot of really hardworking folks over the years - people who actually accomplished something by day's end - and NONE of them were ever Way-flavored. YMMV - I guess...
It seems to me......CFF markets itself as TWI-Lite.
1) Same twig style.....same little teachings....same manifestations
This is true . . . except that you can pretty much teach anything and still be CFF.
2) Same pyramid structure.....same foundational class format.....other classes
Foundational classes . . . yeah, they're mostly the same doctrinally. They're classes don't teach the law of believing, the gift ministries, or down other churches like PFAL did. Also, they're foundational class has several teachers, so theres no hero worship. Also, they're structure isn't nearly the same as it was at the way. The coordinators can't tell the fellowships what to do. They're pretty much are just there to organize big meetings and keep everyone in contact.
3) Same call for tithing faithfully, etc.
CFF teaches that tithing is not required in this "administration." This actually sets them apart from many mainstream churches.
4) Same wierwille adulation.....two wierwille kids give support
No. There is no wierwille adulation. He's really never talked about around CFF.
5) Same attempts to grasp "good ole days"......mock rocks????"
Not mock rocks really .. . . . I mean, they're just normal christian retreats. people stay in hotels and go to
meatings. Food is catered in. I think a lot of churches do this.
On top of that they have to work with hurt, confused, needy people without any real training.
If they are unprepared then why on earth do they take it on unless it is for some sort of ego gratification. If they genuinely cared they would send these people to professionals who are qualified to genuinely help instead of elongating their problems. They'd take the time to honestly realize their own inabilities and get themselves some legitimate training before even attempting anything like this...
The truth is they have been "trained"--BUT by the same people who made many of these people "hurt, confused and needy" in the first place.
What do they expect to happen by using the same formulas that have been used for decades?
By some miracle the whole concoction that has proved time and again to be faulty will all of a sudden produce sweetwater instead of bitter?
Its not gonna happen, the entire system was corrupt. No tweaking of a cancer is going to make it any less deadly
If they are unprepared then why on earth do they take it on unless it is for some sort of ego gratification. If they genuinely cared they would send these people to professionals who are qualified to genuinely help instead of elongating their problems. They'd take the time to honestly realize their own inabilities and get themselves some legitimate training before even attempting anything like this...
The truth is they have been "trained"--BUT by the same people who made many of these people "hurt, confused and needy" in the first place.
What do they expect to happen by using the same formulas that have been used for decades?
By some miracle the whole concoction that has proved time and again to be faulty will all of a sudden produce sweetwater instead of bitter?
Its not gonna happen, the entire system was corrupt. No tweaking of a cancer is going to make it any less deadly
Yeah, but I don't think they believe that. They think that they are trained and that TWI doctrine all works. Hence the dissonance and doubt.
Well, in other situations folks boldly proclaim that God will heal their kids because that was group doctrine.
And sadly, they often have their kids then die because of lack of medical treatment.
I tend to think about what it may take to snap them out of the spell that their groups put them under through false prophecies and spiritual lunacy before it is too late.
But then, some of us didn't learn before the lies cost us something too.
Well, in other situations folks boldly proclaim that God will heal their kids because that was group doctrine.
And sadly, they often have their kids then die because of lack of medical treatment.
I tend to think about what it may take to snap them out of the spell that their groups put them under through false prophecies and spiritual lunacy before it is too late.
But then, some of us didn't learn before the lies cost us something too.
Yeah. I'd always cringe when someone who was sick would be like, "I'm healthy, i'm whole. I've been healed by christ's stripes." Then they don't do anything to get better and start develop a twitch from believing so hard . . . . .
Yeah. I'd always cringe when someone who was sick would be like, "I'm healthy, i'm whole. I've been healed by christ's stripes." Then they don't do anything to get better and start develop a twitch from believing so hard . . . . .
"Then they don't do anything to get better and start develop a twitch from believing so hard . . . . "
At this point in my life, my concept of a "Christian life style" does not include financially supporting people who endeavor to make a living out of the "God business"...
I have nothing against sincere folks who go to church and are trying to do the right thing...but I cannot tolerate those who work it like a business and are looking for ways to "bless your life" in order to generate revenue. I believe that a person's spiritual path should be a personal and private thing that should never be exploited by the self proclaimed "spokesmen of the Lord". I'd rather be like Alice and go down the rabbit hole alone...
...4) Possibly, a "ministry" car to use....(errands/grocery trips/soccer practise of kids)
...5) All phone/utilities/office supplies....."ministry" expense
...6) All meals during a conference weekend
...7) Petty cash for overnight guests.....pizza anyone?
...8) Plants for meeting.....later, go to personal use
...9) Extra food/snack/ from conference luncheon....go to personal refrigerator
...10) Etc. Etc. Etc.
And I wonder how much of these *little* benefits are reported to the irs..
after working over a few more important jobs, if I were an irs agent, I'd take a close look at the books of a few of the larger (and smaller) offshoots..
And I wonder how much of these *little* benefits are reported to the irs..
after working over a few more important jobs, if I were an irs agent, I'd take a close look at the books of a few of the larger (and smaller) offshoots..
ham.....I am no tax expert, but think that nearly all of these expenses would fall under categories that clearly would be legitimate expenditures for "ministry" work.
To me......the bigger issue is discretionary spending with no accountability to board members. I mean, with the loose structure of a splinter setup......traveling to California one month, then South Carolina's myrtle beach area another month, a hotel suite here, a hotel suite there.......there is NO WAY the IRS would find these objectionable, is there?
The blurring of business/pleasure/ministry could be easily disguised without red flags, couldn't it? Heck, wierwille went hunting, motorcycle riding, parked his motorcoach at IN 500 races, .....I suppose one could have spent a week at the Grand Ole Opry Hotel and written it in the books as "conference planning" for their 1984 Sound Out event, no?
Clearly, there are many reasons why so many guys jumped on board the Splinter Express when the wierwille train pulled into Dis-Union Station......but then again, maybe I'm just more skeptical these days.
ham.....I am no tax expert, but think that nearly all of these expenses would fall under categories that clearly would be legitimate expenditures for "ministry" work.
To me......the bigger issue is discretionary spending with no accountability to board members. I mean, with the loose structure of a splinter setup......traveling to California one month, then South Carolina's myrtle beach area another month, a hotel suite here, a hotel suite there.......there is NO WAY the IRS would find these objectionable, is there?
The blurring of business/pleasure/ministry could be easily disguised without red flags, couldn't it? Heck, wierwille went hunting, motorcycle riding, parked his motorcoach at IN 500 races, .....I suppose one could have spent a week at the Grand Ole Opry Hotel and written it in the books as "conference planning" for their 1984 Sound Out event, no?
Clearly, there are many reasons why so many guys jumped on board the Splinter Express when the wierwille train pulled into Dis-Union Station......but then again, maybe I'm just more skeptical these days.
Hate to be the devil's advocate but . . .
Wasn't the whole point of the splinter groups that they cleaned up the act from the Way days? I've heard a lot of people say that they "repackaged Way doctrine." You can't have it both ways though, either they changed the WAY they operated and kept the doctrine or they changed the doctrine but operated the same. Obviously if they acted like the Way and taught the same thing no one would join . . .
In my experience most splinter group leaders are in it because they think they're doing the right thing, helping people. They try to be especially careful to be honest, kind, etc because they have seen where the other path leads.
In my experience most splinter group leaders are in it because they think they're doing the right thing, helping people. They try to be especially careful to be honest, kind, etc because they have seen where the other path leads.
My experience is that they try to act honest, kind, etc. because they don't really know how to be that way. They still take far more than they give; there is still a high sense of entitlement; and honesty with them will get you ejected or called possessed.
Wasn't the whole point of the splinter groups that they cleaned up the act from the Way days?
At best, I've seen *less* abuse. Cleaned up? I dunno.. some of those guys proved themselves to be nothing more than a sow's ear.
Silk purses.. sows ear.. the two never seem to meet up together in any fashion..
Look at the stiffi's, wars of prophecy against prophecy.. "borrowed" way doctrine, the portion which suited them, and they inherited the same bad habits and arrogance from the old organization..
and geero's group. practically a carbon copy of da way. At its worst. Run by a firearm toting thug from the way's yesteryear..
and then there's the newest group, The closest carbon copy of da way it was at its worst. Smack the "followers" around (figuratively if not literally) and send them home if they don't like it. They are taught to actually WORSHIP a very young, inexperienced, *man*. da *great* *manogawd*. Hasn't hit thirty yet.. hasn't experienced life even a quarter way around the block.. and the board, a sad collection of aging ex-wayfers who probably can't afford to retire. The underlying feeling is GREAT resentment for being tossed out of the ministry on their ears.. some by a WOMAN, a usurper. Very, very deep seated bitterness. That's what I read in them.. I'd go on, but it wouldn't be anything I haven't already posted.. but to me, it is very very troubling. You couldn't find a worse pair than those two to be on a board, with arbitrary power over peoples lives. In my opinion.
And I've seen the same arrogance in twi in cff. Same pride of "knowing da word" like it hasn't been known.. but they manage to keep some of the arrogance muzzled. I remember a time when they were working on a mission statement. The thought was "everybody is doing something.. what makes us DIFFERENT? What DEFINES us as an ORGANIZATION?" I thought.. "here we go again.. we are starting to put up some of the same detestable boundaries.." and I did say something to that effect..
I have no idea how it turned out.
Then there's the River Road "fellowship".. sounds pretty detestable..
and the rood ministries guy.. imo, a real "fruitcake"..
am I missing anybody?
The h*ndricks organization, I never knew him. Can't say..
But a half a dozen or so of these kind of groups run by former *ministers* who fornicated liberally in the old organization..
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
5
12
8
12
Popular Days
Sep 20
25
Sep 17
11
Sep 18
9
Sep 19
7
Top Posters In This Topic
skyrider 5 posts
Ham 12 posts
waysider 8 posts
Bishop 12 posts
Popular Days
Sep 20 2009
25 posts
Sep 17 2009
11 posts
Sep 18 2009
9 posts
Sep 19 2009
7 posts
Popular Posts
GrouchoMarxJr
I started a thread awhile ago about the "splinter business"...I think these guys are lazy lowlifes who have avoided finding a "real" job in favor of following their "fadder in da werd"...they set them
leafytwiglet
So what! .. most of us here and probably you too... have been twig coordinators, branch coordinators or area coordinators with no pay in fact we payed(Abundant Sharing ) so to speak for the so called
skyrider
Like in corporate America or politics, the splinter group top man position comes with lots of perks. Sure, there is the obvious adulation and a cushy desk job.....but the bigger the "sphere of their
JeffSjo
With me, it seems that the particular perks may depend on what really drives the splinter group leader, and the perks they hold to may be telling.
I have no doubt that some are driven by the kind of perks you describe because it was just part of what TWI did for it's very top leadership and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree in this case.
But based on my experience Skyrider if the splinter group leader thrives on owning people;lock,stock, and barrel along with being so hung up on being "The Man" that he will break down and try to eliminate every single normal and healthy familial relationship in order to be the only center of authority, attention, and loyalty for every single member it may be even more pernicious than simple greed.
(edited for clarity and grammar)
Edited by JeffSjoLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Not much different than the cr@p that goes on in corporate America.
"Oh, look at me!. I've decided to forego my salary this year. Aren't I just wonderful?-----Shhhhh! No need to ruffle feathers by telling people about the 47 MILLION dollar bonus I'll be accepting."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
I started a thread awhile ago about the "splinter business"...I think these guys are lazy lowlifes who have avoided finding a "real" job in favor of following their "fadder in da werd"...they set themselves up with a cushy existance at the expense of the naive and the gullible.
Like Leonard Cohen wrote..."...everybody wants a box of chocolates and a long stem rose..."
These c** k suckers take advantage of a person's quest and desire to know God by feeding them their filthy doctrines of "send me your money"...Every last one of them can kiss my arse.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DontWorryBeHappy
yo groucho!!!
i'm with you all the way on this one bro!.........peace.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bishop
Many of the splinter group leaders i've encounters look like they're tortured by doubt and deep remorse . . . the honest ones anyways. On top of that they have to work with hurt, confused, needy people without any real training. I can't imagine that this is a dream job . . .
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Groucho......yeah, I agree with you that "lazy lowlifes" has alot to do with it. And further, wierwille groomed these men to take it further than he would.......and, they too, saw the motorcoaches, motorcycles, fawning women everywhere, rock-star status, and dare I say that some had ALREADY PARTAKEN of the "fruit from the pear (pair) tree."
Of course, add those elements of arrogance and elitism and DISTANCE (where many, who live in other faraway states tithe to the splinter group) that permeated twi to its core, the culture is ripe for picking bushels of fruit and hiding it in one's own barn. I mean, c'mon......even during the Geer power-grab era, the Indiana limb guy had part-time staff people and volunteers help restore his boat!!!! Sure, he broke away from twi....only to put his shingle on cgeer's street. Someone told me years ago that he quit paying the cgeer franchise fees and is now has his own splinter sub-group.
Besides......after 15 years or so in twi (and a resume that sucked), I wonder how many of them had envisioned STRIKING OUT ON THEIR OWN FOR YEARS??????
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bishop
They're not all lazy lowlifes . . . John Shroyer . . . . He already had a job when he started CFF . . . people joined his thing in droves because he treated them with respect and gave them a place to connect with old friends and feel peace and meaning. Many people left after they found closure. He was ok with that. He called CFF a church and regularly worked with other ministries in the area (his daughter does interdenominational meetings at CFF still). Furthermore, the guy was not lazy at all. There were so many old wayfers that wanted his attention . . . sometimes hed put in 80 hours a week. I remember him almost falling asleep during meetings he was so worn out.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
John Shroyer started CFF as a social club?
I remember L!nder laughing at CFF's failures . . . kinda weird.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
In fact, a lot of Way Runs occurred during CFF's "Mock Rocks". People would go to the CFF shindig, then driveby HQ.
Edited by BolshevikLink to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I'd like to see them try going to grad school at 52 years old..
majoring in something other than aroma therapy or something, that is..
try Real Analysis.. no, you didn't get even half a clue what was coming from the little undergrad intro to real analysis course..
a kid less than half my age gave up..
so one looks at one's options.. try going the *hard* way.. and there are NO GUARANTEES of success..
or..
hmm. what does one do..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
It seems to me......CFF markets itself as TWI-Lite.
1) Same twig style.....same little teachings....same manifestations
2) Same pyramid structure.....same foundational class format.....other classes
3) Same call for tithing faithfully, etc.
4) Same wierwille adulation.....two wierwille kids give support
5) Same attempts to grasp "good ole days"......mock rocks????
But hey......I could be wrong?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
Oh gawd, I love the "Hard work" invocation, so often heard amongst the Way Elite. While they ALWAYS paid obeisance to the concept, I never saw any of 'em actually engage in it.
I've known a lot of really hardworking folks over the years - people who actually accomplished something by day's end - and NONE of them were ever Way-flavored. YMMV - I guess...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bishop
This is true . . . except that you can pretty much teach anything and still be CFF.
Foundational classes . . . yeah, they're mostly the same doctrinally. They're classes don't teach the law of believing, the gift ministries, or down other churches like PFAL did. Also, they're foundational class has several teachers, so theres no hero worship. Also, they're structure isn't nearly the same as it was at the way. The coordinators can't tell the fellowships what to do. They're pretty much are just there to organize big meetings and keep everyone in contact.
CFF teaches that tithing is not required in this "administration." This actually sets them apart from many mainstream churches.
No. There is no wierwille adulation. He's really never talked about around CFF.
Not mock rocks really .. . . . I mean, they're just normal christian retreats. people stay in hotels and go to
meatings. Food is catered in. I think a lot of churches do this.
Edited by BishopLink to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
If they are unprepared then why on earth do they take it on unless it is for some sort of ego gratification. If they genuinely cared they would send these people to professionals who are qualified to genuinely help instead of elongating their problems. They'd take the time to honestly realize their own inabilities and get themselves some legitimate training before even attempting anything like this...
The truth is they have been "trained"--BUT by the same people who made many of these people "hurt, confused and needy" in the first place.
What do they expect to happen by using the same formulas that have been used for decades?
By some miracle the whole concoction that has proved time and again to be faulty will all of a sudden produce sweetwater instead of bitter?
Its not gonna happen, the entire system was corrupt. No tweaking of a cancer is going to make it any less deadly
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bishop
Yeah, but I don't think they believe that. They think that they are trained and that TWI doctrine all works. Hence the dissonance and doubt.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JeffSjo
Well, in other situations folks boldly proclaim that God will heal their kids because that was group doctrine.
And sadly, they often have their kids then die because of lack of medical treatment.
I tend to think about what it may take to snap them out of the spell that their groups put them under through false prophecies and spiritual lunacy before it is too late.
But then, some of us didn't learn before the lies cost us something too.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bishop
Yeah. I'd always cringe when someone who was sick would be like, "I'm healthy, i'm whole. I've been healed by christ's stripes." Then they don't do anything to get better and start develop a twitch from believing so hard . . . . .
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
"Then they don't do anything to get better and start develop a twitch from believing so hard . . . . "
------------Or worse
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
At this point in my life, my concept of a "Christian life style" does not include financially supporting people who endeavor to make a living out of the "God business"...
I have nothing against sincere folks who go to church and are trying to do the right thing...but I cannot tolerate those who work it like a business and are looking for ways to "bless your life" in order to generate revenue. I believe that a person's spiritual path should be a personal and private thing that should never be exploited by the self proclaimed "spokesmen of the Lord". I'd rather be like Alice and go down the rabbit hole alone...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
And I wonder how much of these *little* benefits are reported to the irs..
after working over a few more important jobs, if I were an irs agent, I'd take a close look at the books of a few of the larger (and smaller) offshoots..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
ham.....I am no tax expert, but think that nearly all of these expenses would fall under categories that clearly would be legitimate expenditures for "ministry" work.
To me......the bigger issue is discretionary spending with no accountability to board members. I mean, with the loose structure of a splinter setup......traveling to California one month, then South Carolina's myrtle beach area another month, a hotel suite here, a hotel suite there.......there is NO WAY the IRS would find these objectionable, is there?
The blurring of business/pleasure/ministry could be easily disguised without red flags, couldn't it? Heck, wierwille went hunting, motorcycle riding, parked his motorcoach at IN 500 races, .....I suppose one could have spent a week at the Grand Ole Opry Hotel and written it in the books as "conference planning" for their 1984 Sound Out event, no?
Clearly, there are many reasons why so many guys jumped on board the Splinter Express when the wierwille train pulled into Dis-Union Station......but then again, maybe I'm just more skeptical these days.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bishop
Hate to be the devil's advocate but . . .
Wasn't the whole point of the splinter groups that they cleaned up the act from the Way days? I've heard a lot of people say that they "repackaged Way doctrine." You can't have it both ways though, either they changed the WAY they operated and kept the doctrine or they changed the doctrine but operated the same. Obviously if they acted like the Way and taught the same thing no one would join . . .
In my experience most splinter group leaders are in it because they think they're doing the right thing, helping people. They try to be especially careful to be honest, kind, etc because they have seen where the other path leads.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
My experience is that they try to act honest, kind, etc. because they don't really know how to be that way. They still take far more than they give; there is still a high sense of entitlement; and honesty with them will get you ejected or called possessed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
At best, I've seen *less* abuse. Cleaned up? I dunno.. some of those guys proved themselves to be nothing more than a sow's ear.
Silk purses.. sows ear.. the two never seem to meet up together in any fashion..
Look at the stiffi's, wars of prophecy against prophecy.. "borrowed" way doctrine, the portion which suited them, and they inherited the same bad habits and arrogance from the old organization..
and geero's group. practically a carbon copy of da way. At its worst. Run by a firearm toting thug from the way's yesteryear..
and then there's the newest group, The closest carbon copy of da way it was at its worst. Smack the "followers" around (figuratively if not literally) and send them home if they don't like it. They are taught to actually WORSHIP a very young, inexperienced, *man*. da *great* *manogawd*. Hasn't hit thirty yet.. hasn't experienced life even a quarter way around the block.. and the board, a sad collection of aging ex-wayfers who probably can't afford to retire. The underlying feeling is GREAT resentment for being tossed out of the ministry on their ears.. some by a WOMAN, a usurper. Very, very deep seated bitterness. That's what I read in them.. I'd go on, but it wouldn't be anything I haven't already posted.. but to me, it is very very troubling. You couldn't find a worse pair than those two to be on a board, with arbitrary power over peoples lives. In my opinion.
And I've seen the same arrogance in twi in cff. Same pride of "knowing da word" like it hasn't been known.. but they manage to keep some of the arrogance muzzled. I remember a time when they were working on a mission statement. The thought was "everybody is doing something.. what makes us DIFFERENT? What DEFINES us as an ORGANIZATION?" I thought.. "here we go again.. we are starting to put up some of the same detestable boundaries.." and I did say something to that effect..
I have no idea how it turned out.
Then there's the River Road "fellowship".. sounds pretty detestable..
and the rood ministries guy.. imo, a real "fruitcake"..
am I missing anybody?
The h*ndricks organization, I never knew him. Can't say..
But a half a dozen or so of these kind of groups run by former *ministers* who fornicated liberally in the old organization..
It's a living, I guess..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.