Coming home to roost

[skyrider]

The chickens have come home to roost.....ie the bad policies, the legalism, the elitism, bad research ethics, sexual predation, bullying practices, etc....HAVE COME HOME.

Call it "what you reap, you sow".....call it karma, or whatever....it happens.

Whether in wierwille's twi, or ces, or the cgeer franchise.....it seems to take about 15 years before the followers catch on to the fool-erers. As wierwille ratcheted up his movement in 1969 with program after program, by 1982/83 it was unraveling. The wierwille cult is little more than a retirement center (hq) and anemic pockets of support for books/teaching tapes. With CES.....dangerous treks into a momentus canyon, personal prophecies where nose-spiders consume human brains, and threats of lawsuits.....the power-grabs seem so twi-like, don't they? And then, there's the geer franchise where food-chain operators wanted to distance themselves from the franchise brand and franchise bills.

Wierwille was too narcisstic to change and alter his course. He bullied his way through countless situations in his past and couldn't find humility to listen to others. Even when corps were exiting in the latter 70s......wierwille's feathers weren't ruffled. Even when bodyguards and/or pilots flew the coop...wierwille remained undaunted.

Imo....it wasn't wierwille's death nor cgeer's poop paper that initiated the exodus, it was the assimilation of discrepancies, hypocrisy, doesn't-pass-the-smell-test, etc. No longer were these ADULTS going to follow in lock-step another leader, namely Martindale. The push-back was stiffening and it was only a matter of time. Wierwille's health problems, and the subsequent cancer-death lies only solidified the growing disdain of being fleeced as fools.

The chickens were coming home to roost......and the problems mounted exponentially from there.

One generation........is about all it takes for people to wake up and see the hypocrisy, the scam. One generation........and the loyalty fades away. Most kids have no interest in following.

The wise man builds his house upon a rock.........and the house on the rock stands firm.

The foolish man builds his house upon the sand.....and it all comes tumbling down.

[excathedra]

reading too many things here

but he had no foundation

except for being perverted

he must have thought he was so lucky to find all these adoring young girls

and even people who say these young ladies "wanted it" should think about the stuff rum runner posted recently

i mean what ajerk

i can't write anymore because i can' see it

[waysider]

Ya know what?

I don't really think Wierwille gave a ratz azz whether or not the "ministry" survived beyond his lifetime. I think all the things he told "the third trunk leader" and the things he supposedly said to G33r in the POOP paper were really just a dog and pony show, one last attempt to exalt himself and bask in adulation before he kicked the bucket.

[geisha779]

Ya know what?

I don't really think Wierwille gave a ratz azz whether or not the "ministry" survived beyond his lifetime. I think all the things he told "the third trunk leader" and the things he supposedly said to G33r in the POOP paper were really just a dog and pony show, one last attempt to exalt himself and bask in adulation before he kicked the bucket.

That is about the best summation I have read here.

[Bolshevik]

That is about the best summation I have read here.

A summation of the beginning.

[penworks]

The chickens have come home to roost.....ie the bad policies, the legalism, the elitism, bad research ethics, sexual predation, bullying practices, etc....HAVE COME HOME.

Call it "what you reap, you sow".....call it karma, or whatever....it happens.

Whether in wierwille's twi, or ces, or the cgeer franchise.....it seems to take about 15 years before the followers catch on to the fool-erers. As wierwille ratcheted up his movement in 1969 with program after program, by 1982/83 it was unraveling. The wierwille cult is little more than a retirement center (hq) and anemic pockets of support for books/teaching tapes. With CES.....dangerous treks into a momentus canyon, personal prophecies where nose-spiders consume human brains, and threats of lawsuits.....the power-grabs seem so twi-like, don't they? And then, there's the geer franchise where food-chain operators wanted to distance themselves from the franchise brand and franchise bills.

Wierwille was too narcisstic to change and alter his course. He bullied his way through countless situations in his past and couldn't find humility to listen to others. Even when corps were exiting in the latter 70s......wierwille's feathers weren't ruffled. Even when bodyguards and/or pilots flew the coop...wierwille remained undaunted.

Imo....it wasn't wierwille's death nor cgeer's poop paper that initiated the exodus, it was the assimilation of discrepancies, hypocrisy, doesn't-pass-the-smell-test, etc. No longer were these ADULTS going to follow in lock-step another leader, namely Martindale. The push-back was stiffening and it was only a matter of time. Wierwille's health problems, and the subsequent cancer-death lies only solidified the growing disdain of being fleeced as fools.

The chickens were coming home to roost......and the problems mounted exponentially from there.

One generation........is about all it takes for people to wake up and see the hypocrisy, the scam. One generation........and the loyalty fades away. Most kids have no interest in following.

The wise man builds his house upon a rock.........and the house on the rock stands firm.

The foolish man builds his house upon the sand.....and it all comes tumbling down.

While I tend to agree with most of this, I can't help but wonder how this line of thinking accounts for the many (many, many, and more popping up every day that I've seen on the web) offshoots or spin-off TWI wannabees. Many of my daughter's generation (in their 30s now) revere Wierwille as their father in the Word, a man they never knew as even young teenagers, since he died in 1985. They revere the leaders of these spin-offs just a surely as we (I should speak for myself) revered VPW as "the man of God" and they continue to revere the dogmas (no matter how slightly revised or re-worded it is) and propaganda about the Bible as if it is The Word of God, just as their parents did.

Makes me wonder...

[excathedra]

ohmygod i didn't realize this loser died like 25 years ago

[Bolshevik]

While I tend to agree with most of this, I can't help but wonder how this line of thinking accounts for the many (many, many, and more popping up every day that I've seen on the web) offshoots or spin-off TWI wannabees. Many of my daughter's generation (in their 30s now) revere Wierwille as their father in the Word, a man they never knew as even young teenagers, since he died in 1985. They revere the leaders of these spin-offs just a surely as we (I should speak for myself) revered VPW as "the man of God" and they continue to revere the dogmas (no matter how slightly revised or re-worded it is) and propaganda about the Bible as if it is The Word of God, just as their parents did.

Makes me wonder...

I tell these "kids" they are responsible for anything rosie et al. does.

[skyrider]

While I tend to agree with most of this, I can't help but wonder how this line of thinking accounts for the many (many, many, and more popping up every day that I've seen on the web) offshoots or spin-off TWI wannabees. Many of my daughter's generation (in their 30s now) revere Wierwille as their father in the Word, a man they never knew as even young teenagers, since he died in 1985. They revere the leaders of these spin-offs just a surely as we (I should speak for myself) revered VPW as "the man of God" and they continue to revere the dogmas (no matter how slightly revised or re-worded it is) and propaganda about the Bible as if it is The Word of God, just as their parents did.

Makes me wonder...

penworks.....thankfully, my kids just missed the "wierwille-walks-the-earth-hype-mantra" and all. And, even though they attended 10 roa, pfal, int, meetings, etc.......my kids never even mention the twi-daze, let alone mr. wierwille. With active school involvement and higher education, they are far too busy to be wallowing in some cult cesspool.

I know lots in the next generation who've done the same.....no revered wierwille, no thanks. Obviously, much of this can be contributed to the parents and all. Those on staff or embedded corps might have more situations to dismantle.....especially those kids who were exposed to the advanced class. Thankfully, mine just missed that cut off point of "commitment." Praise the Lord. :)

[penworks]

I tell these "kids" they are responsible for anything rosie et al. does.

Interesting...could you, would you elaborate a little more on this idea?

[Ham]

I think I understand this..

some of them are hanging about, waiting for the royal "dames" demise..

in a sense, they are supporting *her(?)*..

to be or take over what she(?) is..

maybe I'm reading too much into this Bolshevik.. tell me if I'm wrong..

Edited January 26, 2010 by Ham

[waysider]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Broken Arrow]

Ya know what?

I don't really think Wierwille gave a ratz azz whether or not the "ministry" survived beyond his lifetime. I think all the things he told "the third trunk leader" and the things he supposedly said to G33r in the POOP paper were really just a dog and pony show, one last attempt to exalt himself and bask in adulation before he kicked the bucket.

I don't think the "MOG" could stomach the thought that the "ministry" could survive without him. The poop paper (I like that!) was him telling those of us that were around that none of us could make it without him...at least in his mind. He was the only one "spiritual" enough to lead the ministry.

Let me be real clear...Wierwille wanted the ministry to fail without him. He could not stand it being successful, not that it was.

While I tend to agree with most of this, I can't help but wonder how this line of thinking accounts for the many (many, many, and more popping up every day that I've seen on the web) offshoots or spin-off TWI wannabees. Many of my daughter's generation (in their 30s now) revere Wierwille as their father in the Word, a man they never knew as even young teenagers, since he died in 1985. They revere the leaders of these spin-offs just a surely as we (I should speak for myself) revered VPW as "the man of God" and they continue to revere the dogmas (no matter how slightly revised or re-worded it is) and propaganda about the Bible as if it is The Word of God, just as their parents did.

Makes me wonder...

Perhaps the answer is that many are looking for a hero. Perhaps the answer is many are looking for a good father substitute. I'm getting pretty deep, I know. Someone please pass the chocolate chip cookies.

Edited January 26, 2010 by erkjohn

[Broken Arrow]

One generation........is about all it takes for people to wake up and see the hypocrisy, the scam. One generation........and the loyalty fades away. Most kids have no interest in following.

I follow what you're saying but even as cults go, TWI was pretty anemic in the final analysis. Other cults have survived over a hundred years without the original leader. The Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Seventh Day Adventists to name a few. I don't understand why they keep propogating while others flash out in less than 20 years.

[penworks]

I don't think the "MOG" could stomach the thought that the "ministry" could survive without him. The poop paper (I like that!) was him telling those of us that were around that none of us could make it without him...at least in his mind. He was the only one "spiritual" enough to lead the ministry.

Let me be real clear...Wierwille wanted the ministry to fail without him. He could not stand it being successful, not that it was.

Perhaps the answer is that many are looking for a hero. Perhaps the answer is many are looking for a good father substitute. I'm getting pretty deep, I know. Someone please pass the chocolate chip cookies.

Yes, I agree that it is highly likely he didn't want his ministry to go on without him and so in the PoP tirade, he said it was aleady contaminated even before he died, etc.

My post, which I guess I didn't make too clear, was really more about questioning whether we can say the "next generation" has woken up; in my view many have NOT. They are buying into the TWI wannabee groups, repeating the same dogmas VP propounded, etc. Granted, as Skyrider shared, his kids don't, and my daughter certainly does not, but many of her peers do. They took PFAL when they were 12 years old in the mid 1980s, right around the time we left TWI, and PFAL, VPW and the cliche lifestyle still hold sway over them.

They seek out youth groups and camps and weekend "advances" run by spinoff groups to reinforce the old TWI-based Bible rhetoric and cliched thinking. These groups are under the direction of people from my generation (I guess I would be the first generation since I took PFAL in Dec. 1970 at ECU). Many spinoffs are longtime Corps grads who are, in my view, still deluded about VP being the man of God when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary but they choose to either stay ignorant of it or deny it outright. I find that irresponsible and harmful beyond words.

We're supposed to be the adults and figure out how to guide our kids, yet my peers seem to have dropped the ball by not examining the system we were in and not listening to "the other side of the story" that is told in places like this web site (not that there really are any except for a few blogs). Worse than that in my opinion, is that they're actively PROMOTING the dogmas, directly or indirectly, by continuing to indoctrinate their own kids (and other's kids), who aren't even kids anymore, they are 30 years old! I say shame on them.

On top of that, some of my generation who left TWI but just went on to other things in their lives and never tried to confront their TWI experience and sort it out have another set of problems of their own making. They did not talk to their kids (now grown up) about TWI nor explain the dangers of it or encourage their kids to get educated about cults, fundamentalism, etc. so that their kids get easily sucked into a TWI offshoot and these parents shake their heads and wonder why! I know, I've talked with them. Amazing and very sad...some of their kids, now self-righteous spinoff believers think their own parents who left TWI are the unbelievers! This is messed up beyond words.

Anyhow, my point is that I'm not sure that the cult is dying out...granted, it's slightly revised in these offshoots, but its essence still thrives in them. It's sickening to me and I hold the parents (my generation) responsible for not admitting the known facts of VPW's life, twisted research, and abuse of power. Many have not disassociated themselves with the fanatic fundamentalist attitudes, the propaganda about The Bible, and the non-civil discourse (to say the least) that these groups promote.

One reason for the failure of some parents to give up TWI dogma, I've been told, is the psychological bonding that went on between VP and his "girls," girls he took advantage of sexually long ago, some of whom are now mothers of grown up kids. That bond created a loyalty to VP and "the Word" he taught that is difficult to break, for some women (obviously not the ones willing to speak out against it). But that is another can of worms for another topic...

Enjoy your day!

Edited January 26, 2010 by penworks

[Ham]

Worse than that in my opinion, is that they're actively PROMOTING the dogmas, directly or indirectly, by continuing to indoctrinate their own kids (and other's kids), who aren't even kids anymore, they are 30 years old! I say shame on them.

It could be worse. Somebody could name their kid vic junior, and start a "ministry" for him.. or something..

[Bolshevik]

I follow what you're saying but even as cults go, TWI was pretty anemic in the final analysis. Other cults have survived over a hundred years without the original leader. The Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Seventh Day Adventists to name a few. I don't understand why they keep propogating while others flash out in less than 20 years.

are they more family oriented than twi? . . . they would "propagate" that way.

[skyrider]

My post, which I guess I didn't make too clear, was really more about questioning whether we can say the "next generation" has woken up; in my view many have NOT. They are buying into the TWI wannabee groups, repeating the same dogmas VP propounded, etc. Granted, as Skyrider shared, his kids don't, and my daughter certainly does not, but many of her peers do. They took PFAL when they were 12 years old in the mid 1980s, right around the time we left TWI, and PFAL, VPW and the cliche lifestyle still hold sway over them.

They seek out youth groups and camps and weekend "advances" run by spinoff groups to reinforce the old TWI-based Bible rhetoric and cliched thinking. These groups are under the direction of people from my generation (I guess I would be the first generation since I took PFAL in Dec. 1970 at ECU). Many spinoffs are longtime Corps grads who are, in my view, still deluded about VP being the man of God when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary but they choose to either stay ignorant of it or deny it outright. I find that irresponsible and harmful beyond words.

From where I sit......the "next generation" is, mostly, not buying into the wierwille/cult hype. Sure, there will be a few (8-10% ??) who might be swayed, but from my corner of the world.....I don't see it.

Heck, even the offshoot leaders' kids do NOT want it......CFF, CES, others?? Now granted, I have no idea about the many offshoots all over the country.....60 offshoots ??.....but have heard snippets of some.

And, didn't that SOWERS-program amount to 4 graduates .......??? At that rate, it's gonna take awhile to get "word over Ethel, Mississippi".....population 451.

<_<

[penworks]

From where I sit......the "next generation" is, mostly, not buying into the wierwille/cult hype. Sure, there will be a few (8-10% ??) who might be swayed, but from my corner of the world.....I don't see it.

Heck, even the offshoot leaders' kids do NOT want it......CFF, CES, others?? Now granted, I have no idea about the many offshoots all over the country.....60 offshoots ??.....but have heard snippets of some.

And, didn't that SOWERS-program amount to 4 graduates .......??? At that rate, it's gonna take awhile to get "word over Ethel, Mississippi".....population 451.

<_<

Thanks for this...I hope it all fades out...people do grow up and begin to question...sometimes...

[Broken Arrow]

are they more family oriented than twi? . . . they would "propagate" that way.

I thought of that too. I don't know about the Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventists, but the Mormons sure do push family values and that will always hold some attraction for a large number of people.

[waysider]

"Other cults have survived over a hundred years without the original leader. The Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Seventh Day Adventists to name a few. I don't understand why they keep propagating while others flash out in less than 20 years."

Maybe they just have better marketing techniques.

Edited January 28, 2010 by waysider

[OldSkool]

TWI is a hollowed out shell of it's former self. It's led by people who have no experience what so ever in marketing and business management neither are they forward thinkers. How can you be when your guiding light is what Dr. Wierwille did or worse yet, what did we did last year. It has become a preservation society that, no doubt, will chug along in some guise, but otherwise, it's finished.

[Bolshevik]

. . . but otherwise, it's finished.

no, it isn't. not in our lifetime.

[Bolshevik]

I think I understand this..

some of them are hanging about, waiting for the royal "dames" demise..

in a sense, they are supporting *her(?)*..

to be or take over what she(?) is..

maybe I'm reading too much into this Bolshevik.. tell me if I'm wrong..

maybe

but yes I don't see much difference between her and them. It's 2010, not 1975, why would anyone in their 30s be in twi?

[OldSkool]

I think I understand this..

some of them are hanging about, waiting for the royal "dames" demise..

in a sense, they are supporting *her(?)*..

to be or take over what she(?) is..

maybe I'm reading too much into this Bolshevik.. tell me if I'm wrong..

That is exactly what some of the cabinet/director level people are doing. I can't stomach the hypocrisy.