proably Wierwille at his 1st consistory meeting in Payne after being reprimanded about sermons on tithing.
lol Thomas,.. That would have been funny to see,... VPW in Lederhosen and one of those little green felt hats with the pins, and knickers,.... yell,... er, yodelling!
although Craig excelled in yelling, throwing a temper tantrum(spoiled brat) like a terrible 2 or 3 year old demanding his way, Geer could be like that and both learned from Wierwille(and in turn possibly from papa Ernest). The consistory meeting(similar to church council or parish vestry) had lay president reprimanding Victor Paul and Wierwille proably exploded in rage against them, proably saying something like "I am the one who is ordained and had seminary training, not you bozos/SOB's" and intimated them with fear. btw, in reformed tradtion, laity are co-equal with clergy and may fire/excommunicate them, even regional leaders for disagreement if laity think clergy are heretics. clasis are like districts/conferences/clusters/associations, and synods are similar to dioceses. Wierwille was a master of deception relating to anger and could be a pussycat when necessary. Craig was never that smart, always angry at the world, maybe even against God and Jesus Christ.
If the doctrine were written anywhere, I think it would say, "A person's spirituality is in direct proportion to how loud they can yell." Everyone who prided themselves as a leader yelled. It was spiritual anger, don't you know. Of course, VP would do whatever it took. He did at least as much crying in public as he did yelling.
Wasn't it funny, though, that some people's voices would get really "squeaky" when they yelled? They'd try to be all "spiritual" but would come off sounding like that lead dog in "Up" when his translator malfunctioned.
I heard VeePee talk about his father beating him behind the wood shed, maybe his dad beat that kind a anger in him, learned behavior?
Maybe - but if that's the case, he didn't take his own advice about leaving that stuff behind.
My experience with that kind of person is that they can dish it out, but they can't take it. They also pick (on) people who won't confront the bad behavior. It tends to reinforce and normalize the behavior.
I just learned that VeePee truly was a con, crazy how that yelling was a tool, in the tread of the 7 corp grads by OldScool, waysider put a link to a thread that explained what I saw in Cheyenne, Wyo., groovy heart was their, then something come to town.
So, in private, vpw would yell and tear into people, people he liked,
people he was in charge of, and he would make all sorts of excuses
as to why it was a good idea. "I yell because you can take it!"
Things like that.
Or, "I only yell at you because I love you, and I want what's best." Isn't that another sign of an abuser those of you who are trained in this area. That is, redefining one's abusive behavior and convincing the victim it's actually a loving act.
lcm was often in the room when vpw was doing that. lcm was convinced
vpw was the real deal, so, hot out of college, all lcm did was try
to copy vpw as best he could. So, lcm learned to yell at people and
rationalize it as "right."
I pretty much think LCM was a yeller right out of the gate. I don't think he needed anyone to teach him. Maybe VP helped him refine this "skill". I don't remember him ever being a particularly nice guy.
to yell at great length on tape and in people's faces. All through
the 1990s, lcm yelled at people at every opportunity. He copied
vpw as best he could. lcm didn't know vpw was a fraud, and so he
didn't know he HIMSELF was a fraud! He's STILL a fraud, and he STILL
doesn't know it!
LCM took the yelling to whole new level. Even VPW didn't stand up in public meetings and swear (he did in private meetings though). In fact, VPW himself confronted LCM about the language he used. There were more than a few times I had to defend LCM to some father of small children who just witnessed him cussing his head off in some public meeting.
I pretty much think LCM was a yeller right out of the gate.
Sure, there are some people like that, but most of us are socialized to think that yelling is unacceptable, no matter how inclined we may be in that direction.
Sure, there are some people like that, but most of us are socialized to think that yelling is unacceptable, no matter how inclined we may be in that direction.
I heard VeePee talk about his father beating him behind the wood shed, maybe his dad beat that kind a anger in him, learned behavior?
Possibly.
Eyewitness reports said Old Man Wierwille was an angry, aggressive man who dished
it out in every direction. One POSSIBLE reason young vic kept wandering away from his
chores on the farm was to get away from him- but that's mostly speculation on my part,
nobody around at the time even SUGGESTED it.
But yes, many unhealed abuse victims become abusers themselves, abusing others by
exerting power over them and abusing it. (Abusing THEM in the process.)
Maybe - but if that's the case, he didn't take his own advice about leaving that stuff behind.
My experience with that kind of person is that they can dish it out, but they can't take it. They also pick (on) people who won't confront the bad behavior. It tends to reinforce and normalize the behavior.
Well, vpw really got GOOD at abuse. He selected 2 different personas- one nice and one abusive.
He selected the targets for the abusive one- those who he could get away with it with-
and the people to play "nice guy" with- the ones who'd get him in trouble fast.
For all his bluster and swagger, he never stood up to any guy who could have knocked
him on his posterior- unless you count when he designated some twi'ers as bully boys to
have THEM confront others. (Not to mention having attack dogs raised, which he then used
to intimidate others. We have eyewitness accounts of that...)
Or, "I only yell at you because I love you, and I want what's best." Isn't that another sign of an abuser those of you who are trained in this area. That is, redefining one's abusive behavior and convincing the victim it's actually a loving act.
Pretty much, yeah. They get people to redefine their abuse as normal and acceptable. Once they manage that,
the whole thing's easy. In vpw's case, he had an entire inner circle of twi to cover his tracks.
People like Bob and Dottie "Moneyhands" were used to watch anyone who'd been particularly abused
(raped by vpw or drugged then raped by vpw), to redirect them away from telling the authorities.
Those who seemed likely to tell were rushed off grounds, put on a slow bus home, and while they
travelled, vpw had their reputation ruined on grounds and back home, calling them "possessed" and
other things. So, when they got home, few would listen to them at all. Brutally efficient system,
the sign of someone who KNOWS fully well what they're doing, and are determined to do it effectively
no matter how many people get crushed along the way.
I pretty much think LCM was a yeller right out of the gate. I don't think he needed anyone to teach him. Maybe VP helped him refine this "skill". I don't remember him ever being a particularly nice guy.
Ah, some people who met him when he was a student in the corps and thereabouts have said
he was an actual human being back then. If he fit ANY stereotype, it was the "dumb jock".
That made it a lot easier for vpw to con him completely. As time progressed, he was less and
less a nice, approachable guy and slowly transformed (across the 70s) into the guy you knew.
In some of the SNTs, he didn't yell AT ALL, and in others, he yelled and apologized about it
and said some things got him that angry. (That was the early and mid 80s, respectively.)
By 1990, lcm was confirmed on his current course, and any redeeming qualities he'd pretty much
ditched the previous year when he demanded an oath of allegiance from the twi'ers, and expected
them to "blindly follow him" no matter WHAT. (As far as he was concerned, that was the
EXPECTED STATE of the Corps and Staff, and later of everyone in twi.)
LCM took the yelling to whole new level. Even VPW didn't stand up in public meetings and swear (he did in private meetings though). In fact, VPW himself confronted LCM about the language he used. There were more than a few times I had to defend LCM to some father of small children who just witnessed him cussing his head off in some public meeting.
The 90s were an "exciting" time in twi.
(As in the old curse, "May you be cursed to live in interesting times.")
vpw knew he himself was a fraud- and knew how far to push his audiences,
which audiences to push, and so on. When the cameras were on, he was SUCH a nice guy....
When he was yelling and lacking self-control, it was in private.
lcm thought vpw was the real deal, and thus whatever vpw did was fine with God.
lcm didn't know there were limits to pushing an audience-he didn't know it was all a fraud.
So, the yelling vpw did in private, lcm did in public. The cursing vpw did in private,
lcm did in public. He didn't even cover his adultery tracks as well as vpw did.
Other things he adapted was vpw demanding an oath of loyalty. vpw pushed 2 groups of
early Corps, and one was required to give vpw an oath of loyalty.
lcm took that private practice, and made it public- requiring all twi'ers to do so to him.
About 1993, things got REALLY weird. That's when lcm finished going completely around the
bend, and began issuing truly bizarre doctrine, senseless practice, and so on.
lcm announced "The Word is over The World", put the Corps as full-time salaried employees,
I've often wondered if LCM went slightly insane after Passing of the Patriarch. Having one's dirty laundry hanging out there for everyone to see, and then being confronted about it even by subordinates can be very upsetting. Couple that with his desire to "be somebody" and you could have a rather explosive situation.
One of the reasons I got taken in by POP was Martindale's initial reaction, which was agreement. Now I think he was just shell-shocked at the time and wanted it all to just go away.
My two cents: When I first met LCM in 1970 and was in the 2nd corps with him, he was not a yelling type that I saw. He became that way under the indoctrination of VPW because he wanted so much to be just like VP.
I recently heard somone in a movie say something like, You are angry with so-and-so, why? not because they've overtly done something to you but because you feel guilty when you're around them. Why might that be?
as i've said here before, one night when walking along wierwille road, there was some dog giving birth and wierwille and geer were there with barbie. the way they "talked" to her was worse than you would talk to a dog - i just can't explain it -- and i come from a history where this kind of crap yelling talk is the absolute norm
oh what else? when the poop hit the paper, i did write to craig about how he could finally change the way and not walk in the steps of the fadda -- his written typed reply was SCREAMNIG -- i din't know you could yell in a letter, i swear
i did like craig back before then
another time when i was in word processing dept., vince finnegan screamed at me to where i just was dumbfounded -- it was over some stupid little sheet with the tape transcriber. i want to my dept head and is said i just couldn't take it. she went to bo and bo went to vince and i think the final outcome was that he came by and told me he was under a lot of spiritual pressure -- i don't think i said it then except in my head and to my dept head -- that he should get another job if he couldn't take the pressure
when i talked to veepee about a friend of mine getting abused by psycho geer, he didn't yell exactly, but he said how long would he have to wipe the way corps' asses ? excuse me ?
geer was a snake well so were many of them
when i told on geer, he called me at home. he didn't yell at me -- he said didn't i understand that my friend was packing big ones? what a beetch
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Bolshevik
Here ya go dude . . .
socks
As a word of warning, a cautionery tale if you will - VPW's proclivity to anger and his willingness to express it publicly is one of the most damaging influences of his life. I've expressed it before
Thomas Loy Bumgarner
proably Wierwille at his 1st consistory meeting in Payne after being reprimanded about sermons on tithing.
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teachmevp
Wow, money is the root of this yelling?
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Gen-2
lol Thomas,.. That would have been funny to see,... VPW in Lederhosen and one of those little green felt hats with the pins, and knickers,.... yell,... er, yodelling!
Smashing!
I would think!
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teachmevp
Did this Lederhosten dude teach VeePee that yelling doctrine, oops, did VeePee learn yelling by yodeling in Lederhosten?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
although Craig excelled in yelling, throwing a temper tantrum(spoiled brat) like a terrible 2 or 3 year old demanding his way, Geer could be like that and both learned from Wierwille(and in turn possibly from papa Ernest). The consistory meeting(similar to church council or parish vestry) had lay president reprimanding Victor Paul and Wierwille proably exploded in rage against them, proably saying something like "I am the one who is ordained and had seminary training, not you bozos/SOB's" and intimated them with fear. btw, in reformed tradtion, laity are co-equal with clergy and may fire/excommunicate them, even regional leaders for disagreement if laity think clergy are heretics. clasis are like districts/conferences/clusters/associations, and synods are similar to dioceses. Wierwille was a master of deception relating to anger and could be a pussycat when necessary. Craig was never that smart, always angry at the world, maybe even against God and Jesus Christ.
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Broken Arrow
If the doctrine were written anywhere, I think it would say, "A person's spirituality is in direct proportion to how loud they can yell." Everyone who prided themselves as a leader yelled. It was spiritual anger, don't you know. Of course, VP would do whatever it took. He did at least as much crying in public as he did yelling.
Wasn't it funny, though, that some people's voices would get really "squeaky" when they yelled? They'd try to be all "spiritual" but would come off sounding like that lead dog in "Up" when his translator malfunctioned.
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WordWolf
Remember, vpw, from the beginning, knew that he himself was a fraud.
He was always looking for things to pull the fraud.
That's why he he accumulated a library of "original works" of other
Christians to plagiarize and basically present as his own work.
It's also why vpw, in public, would be such a nice guy, but turn around
once the cameras were all off and would terrorize everyone around him.
He KNEW he was scamming his audience, and managed a public persona for
all the people who only knew him from stage and video. (That's why we
still get clueless people who never saw vpw when he wasn't on stage,
and think he was in reality the public persona he pretended to be.)
So, in private, vpw would yell and tear into people, people he liked,
people he was in charge of, and he would make all sorts of excuses
as to why it was a good idea. "I yell because you can take it!"
Things like that.
lcm was often in the room when vpw was doing that. lcm was convinced
vpw was the real deal, so, hot out of college, all lcm did was try
to copy vpw as best he could. So, lcm learned to yell at people and
rationalize it as "right."
In fact, for a time, lcm wasn't pleased at himself when he yelled at
the SNT Sunday Night Services. That was as late as 1982.
What a difference a few years made! By 1989, lcm was perfectly happy
to yell at great length on tape and in people's faces. All through
the 1990s, lcm yelled at people at every opportunity. He copied
vpw as best he could. lcm didn't know vpw was a fraud, and so he
didn't know he HIMSELF was a fraud! He's STILL a fraud, and he STILL
doesn't know it!
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teachmevp
I heard VeePee talk about his father beating him behind the wood shed, maybe his dad beat that kind a anger in him, learned behavior?
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Tzaia
Maybe - but if that's the case, he didn't take his own advice about leaving that stuff behind.
My experience with that kind of person is that they can dish it out, but they can't take it. They also pick (on) people who won't confront the bad behavior. It tends to reinforce and normalize the behavior.
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Bolshevik
"I yell because I'm spiritually concerned/angry"
"I yell because I haven't renewed my mind" (To tell the underlings, in case they start yelling)
If it's a doctrine, at least it is clear how it all works.
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teachmevp
I just learned that VeePee truly was a con, crazy how that yelling was a tool, in the tread of the 7 corp grads by OldScool, waysider put a link to a thread that explained what I saw in Cheyenne, Wyo., groovy heart was their, then something come to town.
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Bolshevik
You can see why twi doesn't like the internet . . . you can't yell at people online.
BUT YOU CAN WRITE IN ALL CAPS.
AND MAKE IT BOLD
AND BIG AND ITALIC
did that scare you L!nder?
no probably not . . .
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teachmevp
That is great stuff buddy, I can't get those buttons to work for me.
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Broken Arrow
Or, "I only yell at you because I love you, and I want what's best." Isn't that another sign of an abuser those of you who are trained in this area. That is, redefining one's abusive behavior and convincing the victim it's actually a loving act.
I pretty much think LCM was a yeller right out of the gate. I don't think he needed anyone to teach him. Maybe VP helped him refine this "skill". I don't remember him ever being a particularly nice guy.
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Broken Arrow
LCM took the yelling to whole new level. Even VPW didn't stand up in public meetings and swear (he did in private meetings though). In fact, VPW himself confronted LCM about the language he used. There were more than a few times I had to defend LCM to some father of small children who just witnessed him cussing his head off in some public meeting.
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Oakspear
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Broken Arrow
That man was always angry. It was unreal.
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Bolshevik
It makes for much better STSs. I mean, what follower of twi actually listens to what is being said?
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WordWolf
Possibly.
Eyewitness reports said Old Man Wierwille was an angry, aggressive man who dished
it out in every direction. One POSSIBLE reason young vic kept wandering away from his
chores on the farm was to get away from him- but that's mostly speculation on my part,
nobody around at the time even SUGGESTED it.
But yes, many unhealed abuse victims become abusers themselves, abusing others by
exerting power over them and abusing it. (Abusing THEM in the process.)
Well, vpw really got GOOD at abuse. He selected 2 different personas- one nice and one abusive.
He selected the targets for the abusive one- those who he could get away with it with-
and the people to play "nice guy" with- the ones who'd get him in trouble fast.
For all his bluster and swagger, he never stood up to any guy who could have knocked
him on his posterior- unless you count when he designated some twi'ers as bully boys to
have THEM confront others. (Not to mention having attack dogs raised, which he then used
to intimidate others. We have eyewitness accounts of that...)
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WordWolf
Pretty much, yeah. They get people to redefine their abuse as normal and acceptable. Once they manage that,
the whole thing's easy. In vpw's case, he had an entire inner circle of twi to cover his tracks.
People like Bob and Dottie "Moneyhands" were used to watch anyone who'd been particularly abused
(raped by vpw or drugged then raped by vpw), to redirect them away from telling the authorities.
Those who seemed likely to tell were rushed off grounds, put on a slow bus home, and while they
travelled, vpw had their reputation ruined on grounds and back home, calling them "possessed" and
other things. So, when they got home, few would listen to them at all. Brutally efficient system,
the sign of someone who KNOWS fully well what they're doing, and are determined to do it effectively
no matter how many people get crushed along the way.
Ah, some people who met him when he was a student in the corps and thereabouts have said
he was an actual human being back then. If he fit ANY stereotype, it was the "dumb jock".
That made it a lot easier for vpw to con him completely. As time progressed, he was less and
less a nice, approachable guy and slowly transformed (across the 70s) into the guy you knew.
In some of the SNTs, he didn't yell AT ALL, and in others, he yelled and apologized about it
and said some things got him that angry. (That was the early and mid 80s, respectively.)
By 1990, lcm was confirmed on his current course, and any redeeming qualities he'd pretty much
ditched the previous year when he demanded an oath of allegiance from the twi'ers, and expected
them to "blindly follow him" no matter WHAT. (As far as he was concerned, that was the
EXPECTED STATE of the Corps and Staff, and later of everyone in twi.)
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WordWolf
The 90s were an "exciting" time in twi.
(As in the old curse, "May you be cursed to live in interesting times.")
vpw knew he himself was a fraud- and knew how far to push his audiences,
which audiences to push, and so on. When the cameras were on, he was SUCH a nice guy....
When he was yelling and lacking self-control, it was in private.
lcm thought vpw was the real deal, and thus whatever vpw did was fine with God.
lcm didn't know there were limits to pushing an audience-he didn't know it was all a fraud.
So, the yelling vpw did in private, lcm did in public. The cursing vpw did in private,
lcm did in public. He didn't even cover his adultery tracks as well as vpw did.
Other things he adapted was vpw demanding an oath of loyalty. vpw pushed 2 groups of
early Corps, and one was required to give vpw an oath of loyalty.
lcm took that private practice, and made it public- requiring all twi'ers to do so to him.
About 1993, things got REALLY weird. That's when lcm finished going completely around the
bend, and began issuing truly bizarre doctrine, senseless practice, and so on.
lcm announced "The Word is over The World", put the Corps as full-time salaried employees,
and cancelled the ROA.
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Broken Arrow
I've often wondered if LCM went slightly insane after Passing of the Patriarch. Having one's dirty laundry hanging out there for everyone to see, and then being confronted about it even by subordinates can be very upsetting. Couple that with his desire to "be somebody" and you could have a rather explosive situation.
One of the reasons I got taken in by POP was Martindale's initial reaction, which was agreement. Now I think he was just shell-shocked at the time and wanted it all to just go away.
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penworks
My two cents: When I first met LCM in 1970 and was in the 2nd corps with him, he was not a yelling type that I saw. He became that way under the indoctrination of VPW because he wanted so much to be just like VP.
I recently heard somone in a movie say something like, You are angry with so-and-so, why? not because they've overtly done something to you but because you feel guilty when you're around them. Why might that be?
Made me stop and think....
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excathedra
i don't even know where to start
as i've said here before, one night when walking along wierwille road, there was some dog giving birth and wierwille and geer were there with barbie. the way they "talked" to her was worse than you would talk to a dog - i just can't explain it -- and i come from a history where this kind of crap yelling talk is the absolute norm
oh what else? when the poop hit the paper, i did write to craig about how he could finally change the way and not walk in the steps of the fadda -- his written typed reply was SCREAMNIG -- i din't know you could yell in a letter, i swear
i did like craig back before then
another time when i was in word processing dept., vince finnegan screamed at me to where i just was dumbfounded -- it was over some stupid little sheet with the tape transcriber. i want to my dept head and is said i just couldn't take it. she went to bo and bo went to vince and i think the final outcome was that he came by and told me he was under a lot of spiritual pressure -- i don't think i said it then except in my head and to my dept head -- that he should get another job if he couldn't take the pressure
when i talked to veepee about a friend of mine getting abused by psycho geer, he didn't yell exactly, but he said how long would he have to wipe the way corps' asses ? excuse me ?
geer was a snake well so were many of them
when i told on geer, he called me at home. he didn't yell at me -- he said didn't i understand that my friend was packing big ones? what a beetch
ugh
these people should have been slapped
i'll think of more i'm sure
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