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quote:

You speak with forked tongue. Out of one side of your mouth you say that a true Christian should be getting persecuted and killed, but out of the other side of your mouth you say that TWI, who supposedly raped and killed and destroyed souls, is evil even though they did what YOU SAY should be happening in the lives of true Christians.

I think you have an error in identification.

A is A. Not B, not C.

Put into simple language: God is love, the Devil is hate.

Nobody is talking out both sides of their mouth. According to PFAL, the devil hates you and the household of God loves you. Two opposites that occur in specific places.

Put another way: Persecution comes from the world (which, again, according to PFAL, belongs to the devil), not God's household.

The last place you should expect rapings and souls being destroyed (hardly acts of love) is the family of God. That's where your supposed to find solice and healing, not entrapment and injury.

Further proof Saint Vic wasn't the real deal.

SoCrates

Edited by So_crates

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Why is it that VP preyed on youth? For the most part that bolstered his exaggerated numbers. Young and inexperienced youth. Why separate families....why the isolation.....and why the continuous concentrating on the minutia in scripture? Something like....hmmm....an example might be......teaching on the word "of" for 5 hours.

Maybe to keep us numb and away from the people who had a few brain cells left to rub together.

It is no wonder he had to keep us from other Christians....they knew exactly what he was.

The money would have dried up quickly if we actually listened to those darn unbelieving believers.

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quote:

Escaping "negative" situations is not what gives us peace. In fact, we are promised persecution and suffering for His namesake.....that is one of the promises of God.

You speak with forked tongue. Out of one side of your mouth you say that a true Christian should be getting persecuted and killed, but out of the other side of your mouth you say that TWI, who supposedly raped and killed and destroyed souls, is evil even though they did what YOU SAY should be happening in the lives of true Christians.

Actually, you're accusing others of what you do, which is an old, old tactic.

The whole discussion proceeded from your faulty claims, which seem to keep changing.

twi was a "safe harbor", but not in the sense of giving "safety", and not in the sense

of acting as a "harbor." But, oh, if you follow twi's rules and the so-called

"LAW of believing" (which is unbiblical and doesn't work), then you will have a safe

feeling and be guaranteed safety.

Of course, that doesn't hold for lots of people who tried it your way and were unsafe-

and victimized by vpw HIMSELF or hurt or raped or killed (like on LEAD) because they

followed his instructions (you MUST hitchike), so now you go on the attack and someone

ELSE "speaks with forked tongue."

Anyone else but you can see the difference between what you said we said, and what we

actually said.

YOU SAID

" But if you base your life on the word of God, and you even make major decisions based on prayer and the word of God, and time and time again your prayers get answered and you escape negative situations, and you're blessed and peaceful, then it's not gambling, is it?"

That's the mechanized approach vpw claimed worked, the "law" of believing,

where you believe and you're guaranteed to get the DESIRED result-if you did it right.

That's not how it works.

Here's what Geisha said:

"Well, then Jesus was a great failure, because He prayed with great drops of blood as sweat....and His cup didn't pass. Paul, who basically carried out the second half of Jesus ministry.....did not have his thorn in the flesh removed....and along with the other apostles was beaten and imprisoned time and again. With the exception of John....who was not sent to Club Med, the Apostles were martyred. Peter died a horrible death, we believe after watching his wife suffer a similar fate. You are going to be hard pressed not to find persecution, violence, or suffering, from creation on in scripture.

The only person who was called upright and perfect before God...Job, went through a horrible trial of human suffering. He didn't do anything wrong....and you know what? He never found out why.

Escaping "negative" situations is not what gives us peace. In fact, we are promised persecution and suffering for His namesake.....that is one of the promises of God. The peace that is promised us....stems from a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is about our safety in Him...not this life. According to scripture....God has a pretty poor track record of keeping people safe in this life. Jesus presents us blameless and spotless before God...not this world."

Here's what I said:

"So, so far, twi's "safe harbor" offers no PHYSICAL safety (took 20 pages to get there),

and the only "safety" twi offers is a promise that prayers will result CONSISTENTLY

in deliverance (which, as the rest of us know, contradicts Scripture, since praying men

like Jesus, Paul, Peter etc prayed earnestly and did not escape physical peril nor

execution.)"

So, in plain English, we said your rules argued against Scripture and against how

things were demonstrated to have worked. (So Crates gave modern examples.)

==================================

The sad part is that you can't tell the difference between what we said and, as you put it,

"Out of one side of your mouth you say that a true Christian should be getting persecuted and killed, but out of the other side of your mouth you say that TWI, who supposedly raped and killed and destroyed souls, is evil even though they did what YOU SAY should be happening in the lives of true Christians."

We were saying that Christians have no guarantee to avoid strife, and in fact should be

expecting to face persecution and suffering if necessary, that is because the world is evil

and we must remain faithful even though the world does not want us to be.

That doesn't mean that ALL suffering=persecution of Christians. It also doesn't mean that to

get someone closer to God, you persecute him and he should thank you for it.

Matthew 18:6-7. "6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

7Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! "

Luke 17:1-2. " 1Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

2It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."

Jesus knew that we will suffer-it's "impossible" to avoid it in the world- but the one that causes the Christians

to suffer is NOT Christian NOR to be thanked- he's in a lot of trouble with God Almighty.

So, going from Jesus' explanation, if an organization VICTIMIZES Christians and CAUSES them to suffer,

then that organization. SINCE twi has victimized Christians, has caused them to stumble and suffer,

and vpw himself raped and molested, twi was responsible for much evil, and vpw was personally

responsible for much evil. To say otherwise is to display a sharp disagreement with Jesus Christ

himself as to how things go.

One of my favorite Hitchcock movies is 'Frenzy'. Good suspense. You know who the killer is maybe 20 minutes into the movie yet the suspense continues throughout. In one scene the killer says to a woman "you're my kind of woman" and then twists logic around and around and in less than 5 minutes he's entitled to kill her. And it all started with "you're my kind of woman".

That's precisely what you do when I post; you remove what I say from its context, thus freeing you up to assign any and all application of what I said that I never intended. That's likely how you worked the word, too.

It's sad that you can't see the difference. It's disappointing that virtually everyone who reads

this thread can see the difference, and can easily see us quoting and explaining the relevance

of Scripture here, and learn thereby, but you still toss out vague insults about our understanding.

There's an appalling contrast with what's evident and what you're claiming is here.

I think you have an error in identification.

A is A. Not B, not C.

Put into simple language: God is love, the Devil is hate.

Nobody is talking out both sides of their mouth. According to PFAL, the devil hates you and the household of God loves you. Two opposites that occur in specific places.

Put another way: Persecution comes from the world (which, again, according to PFAL, belongs to the devil), not God's household.

The last place you should expect rapings and souls being destroyed (hardly acts of love) is the family of God. That's where your supposed to find solace and healing, not entrapment and injury.

Further proof Saint Vic wasn't the real deal.

SoCrates

Can it be stated any more simply than this?

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Do you think there's going to be a 'complaint department' visible immediately after the return? If there is, then there won't be any time to have the judgements.

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quote: Perhaps a brief musical interlude will shed some light on the matter.

Did you see these comments on that page?

wow the words are so retarded. it can only be used for crushing a real life rabbit with a steel toed boot. to hear the loud screams is exciting.

NYTDDS 9 hours ago

If I ever kill myself. I will do it with an overdose of Heroin and have this song playing on a loop so that when people find me they'll get a nice laugh.

These people think like the guy in 'Clockwork orange' who was 'singing in the rain'.

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What "return"? are you talking about?

He's attempting misdirection. He can't respond to the previous post rationally, so he's trying to devert our attention someplace else.

Sometimes I wonder why he wastes his and our time. Dude, read some of the other posts on this board, the evidence is overwhelming.

I know some of you want a statue erected to Saint Vic, and a street named after him, and, maybe, the Saint Vic Memorial Post Office, but those of us who knew who he really was--the real him lies in the posts on this board--think the truth is more important than worshipping the man. Idoltry anyone?

SoCrates

Edited by So_crates

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.............................................................................................................

That's the mechanized approach vpw claimed worked, the "law" of believing,

where you believe and you're guaranteed to get the DESIRED result-if you did it right.

The sad part is that you can't tell the difference between what we said and, as you put it,

..........................................................................................................

"

The whole post was great...but this really resonated with me. . . . because the above statement is what I have not been able to put my finger on. It absolutely is a mechanized approach!! I believe we also brought that approach to scripture in general. I think that is how we were able to miss so much....and why the gospels seemed liked such a difficult read. At least they were for me. Even now, sometimes I read them and think...."WHAT did He say?"

With the notion that A & B must equal C. . . . we started out looking for C. Instead of letting the Word of God speak to us...... we started out with a premise "C" and assumed we already knew it. Then we had to jam it into scripture to fit like a hand in a glove. We did this at the expense of scriptures that didn't fit and we had to twist the meaning of much that just plain contradicted "C".

In the process, I know I missed the subtlety of scripture and the layer upon layer of depth there for us to glean. That depth is how God opens the eyes of our understanding and pierces our heart......no wonder there was little Godly transformation in TWI. We made it up as we went along, and it followed the path of these "leaders" true inclination.. brutish.

If we begin with the assumption we have the knowledge and we are just trying to see that in scripture......we miss it by a mile. But, in our weakness and inability to understand, genuine meekness, God works to enlighten us. None of that takes place going by formulas. The bible is not a scientific formula and we are not trying to prove something in approaching scripture....we are trying to find something.

With the scriptures WordWolf posted.....they speak quite plainly to us. They have a point of view. That point has depth. Not only does Jesus speak about the evil nature of causing one to stumble......and alludes to serious consequences....but, look at the language He uses to speak about believers. Little ones.....that is tender, loving language. He also uses sheep, He called Israel little chicks, but little ones fit with what He said about becoming as a child.

Mark 10:15 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." If we don't come like a child, we don't come at all.

Children are helpless, children are needy, children have no contribution or agenda..... we come trusting like a child, resting, and empty handed. When we are born into this world we learn, we acquire wisdom, we grow up. Funny thing....as we grow older, we usually realize as we learn more and more....we know less and less. When we are born-again....that starts all over.

When scripture speaks of endurance or growing in patience and that perseverance is required....it is not about our strength or the strongest surviving......we are weak and helpless as children.....we need Him to be strong and we need to trust Him for teaching us patience and that He will finish His work. Perseverance is all about true faith in Him. Trace it back in scripture.

Godly trials are a matter of trust. On the other hand...the person who causes a child to stumble.....abuses a child in the name of God......a little one......that person is not only in a whole bunch of trouble....but, doesn't have clue one about God.

Why would anyone listen to a word they have to say about God?

Edited by geisha779

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Have I mentioned lately that I'm actually getting quite a bit out of this thread?

I don't just mean in a sense of psychology/sociology/criminology,

but in a sense of Christian learning.

The whole process, with people contributing, has hit on some pretty deep stuff here

and there, and some pretty fundamental stuff here and there, and had some interesting

things to say about both. I think the dialogue has had some really beneficial posts

in them.

Of course, I don't speak for everyone, but I'd expect most of us are getting SOMETHING

from the process.

  • Upvote 1

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so, what was the safety here?

was it so.. what's the word..

I remember D*vid C*aley's description of a mescaline induced moment.. hearing the organ of the universe playing, seeing the passengers and crew of a beautiful ship beckoning to him..

and for one reason or another, he couldn't get on board with them..

is that it? A fleeting glimpse of paradise.. or something?

I'm really really trying to figure out what it exactly is that you are seeing.

C*aley had a vision once too.. that did not exactly accord with the ensuing history: da vicster, much more aged, but still vital.. the adorning crowd.. as he got off of the ship..

is that it?

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Now on a personal level.

I've had some "fascinating" visions as well.

the voices one hears, or the visions one sees..

you have the *moral* (ahem, excuse me.) RIGHT.. to reject them..

how else do us few "nutcases" function in society?

:biglaugh:

Every fleeting thought, every little flash of awareness or lack thereof.. I don't attribute to the Almighty anymore..

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It reminds me of one of the movies I watched.. no, I won't say it was a favorite.

The apes saw the Lawgiver weeping..

and what was the interpretation?

"the vision is false.."

very, very interesting..

so.. they charged the barrier.. and kicked a**..

are you a warrior.. or are you not..

me, I have had my moments.. other times, I have been too blind to see..

destruction is such a harsh word. I just hope that one can't identify me with THE destroyer..

:biglaugh:

It's damned nasty. Warriors have to play by rules.. and they seem to be becoming more confined, one decade, on generation after another..

any other thoughts from the participants here?

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scary thoughts..

the energy, or whatever it is that we are in this existence..

corrupts..

little is better.

you can look at it another way..

we are a million points of light..

and it really isn't our fault that light burns..

"by the numbers" I'm supposed to be a peacemaker.

I hope I haven't failed miserably..

:biglaugh:

I'll adopt the role, it it will adopt me..

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Crosby Stills and Nash's version was so.. lame. that isn't entirely the name..

no, they embodied it.

when they published it, it had the authors name attached..

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quote: Sometimes I wonder why he wastes his and our time. Dude, read some of the other posts on this board, the evidence is overwhelming.

Evidence? You consider any post to be "evidence"?

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quote: Sometimes I wonder why he wastes his and our time. Dude, read some of the other posts on this board, the evidence is overwhelming.

Evidence? You consider any post to be "evidence"?

Yes.

But not just "any" post. Posts that recount first hand experiences, eyewitness testimony, and posts that fill in missing pieces of my own personal experiences.

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quote: Sometimes I wonder why he wastes his and our time. Dude, read some of the other posts on this board, the evidence is overwhelming.

Evidence? You consider any post to be "evidence"?

*humbly* I say..

You'mve "missed it"..

what does the *evidence* have to do..

and what is evidence?

wasn't it given by *somebody*?

maybe that is the problem here.. "trust".

do you trust what others are saying, or not?

why, or why not should you..

sorry. I'm neutral in this. I'm supposed to be some kind of peacemaker.

the numbers tell me so..

quote: Sometimes I wonder why he wastes his and our time. Dude, read some of the other posts on this board, the evidence is overwhelming.

Evidence? You consider any post to be "evidence"?

*humbly* I say..

You'mve "missed it"..

what does the *evidence* have to do..

and what is evidence?

wasn't it given by *somebody*?

maybe that is the problem here.. "trust".

do you trust what others are saying, or not?

why, or why not should you..

sorry. I'm neutral in this. I'm supposed to be some kind of peacemaker.

the numbers tell me so..

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Hell, for that matter, some of the things posted are the types of things I saw myself but didn't understand. Like the incident T-Bone related involving the Way Corps night-owls. Wierwille openly displayed a lewd object to a 15 year old girl. It was right there in front of them but they didn't fully comprehend the significance of what they were witnessing.T-Bone wasn't the only one there at that event. Then there was the pornographic movie of bestiality that VPW displayed for various groups.I did not personally see this movie but I did, personally hear Wierwille describe the contents in the CF&S class. Then, there are the "first hand accounts" of Wierwille describing, again, in a closed group, the times he sexually molested his own daughter. These incidents aren't hearsay. They actually happened. How much more "first hand" does it get than that?

Did you take the old CF&S class, John? If you did, you, yourself, must have heard him describe the bestiality movies. That means that even you caught a glimpse of what was going on and, like many of us, failed to realize the importance of what we were seeing.

Edited by waysider

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Consider this. Wierwille described the bestiality movies (one with a German Shepherd and one with a horse, if I remember correctly.) in CF&S. Thousands of students are witness to this fact. There were underage students in some of these classes. There is one GSC poster who has testified that he was 13 or 14 when he took the class. I personally ran a class that included a 13 year old female student. Somehow, Wierwille bewitched us into thinking there was some sort of redeeming value to be found in this so-called class. There was no redeeming value. In retrospect, it was wierwille exercising his little grooming/conditioning/desensitizing game.

So, now, we have gone from someone saying, "Where's the evidence?" to a scenario that clearly demonstrates there were thousands of witnesses to, at the very least, a small but real piece of the decadent puzzle. Where is the evidence? It's been hiding in plain sight the whole time.

Edited by waysider

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I dunno. It is kind of like..

there is a drunk Spaniard here.. that I have to define Tomatina for..

:biglaugh:

his reply.. "oh yes. there are other parties.. I've never been there.."

:biglaugh:

Looking at that video of Joni..

did you know she was stricken with Polio in younger years?

looking at that.. you'd never think something like that..

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I'm not sure but I think I saw him post somewhere that he had taken the CF&S class. He admits he was there at the train wreck but denies it ever happened. How does that work?

Edited by waysider

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