A personal Soap Box

[Ham]

Both VP and the officer were people who were associated with a standard which had authority behind it,

Standard? What standard? The officer, yes. The vicster stole his "position". he wasn't really a "doctor", or don't you know that?

either way.. he was a dick. And a very small one, at that.

[So_crates]

Again, I don't care if my analogies are a 100% match. An analogy is like a parable. Jesus' parables weren't a 100% match; they drew a parallel between 2 things. For example the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15). This parable drew a parallel between 3 principal povs in 2 different situations. In the actual scenerio, there was 1) Jesus, who spoke for God, the true forgiving Father, 2) the publicans and sinners, and 3) the Pharisees and scribes, who were resentful when they should have been rejoicing. In the parable there was 1) the forgiving father, 2) the younger son, who was being judged by...3) the older son, who was resentful when he should have been rejoicing. Get it?

No a parable is a parable and an analogy is an analogy: (to quote an expression thats all the rage: soup is soup and apple butter is apple butter. Now where did I hear that?) Remember your the one that called it an analogy, not me. Now, your trying to change definitions. Get it?

Further, a percecutor is more in the public trust, like Saint Vic. Part of the reason for the outrage in my scenerio.

Both VP and the officer were people who were associated with a standard which had authority behind it, who did unspeakable things. That's the comparison. Argue all you want.

I get it perfectly: my mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts.

SoCrates

Edited March 12, 2011 by So_crates

[Ham]

the vicster had no more "authority" than that which he robbed others of..

[waysider]

I spent 4 years of my life, married to one of Gary's TWI "kids". I know lots of details that I feel no compulsion to share. So, don't go assuming I'm just spouting off about something I read on Greasespot.

[Ham]

I'm still waiting for a definition of the safe harbor, or haven, that you speak of..

I understand your frame of mind. You don't feel compelled to cast your swine before the pearls here.

Tell me if I'm off base..

[waysider]

Here's the irony, Ham. VP (You know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?) Wierwille used guilt to bully people into submission using the premise that, if they would submit to the MOG, they would, indeed, find refuge in a safe harbor. How did that one pan out?

[So_crates]

To illistrate to you how your trying to change definitions, I've posted both definitions below:

Analogy (definition)

Parable (definition)

You start by calling your example an analogy, but when you see that doesn't get any legs you switch it to being a parable. Forked tongue anyone?

SoCrates

Edited March 12, 2011 by So_crates

[waysider]

Casting Pearls Before Swine.

[Ham]

Here's the irony, Ham. VP (You know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?) Wierwille used guilt to bully people into submission using the premise that, if they would submit to the MOG, they would, indeed, find refuge in a safe harbor. How did that one pan out?

yes, and how did that turn out..

I can say one thing how that's worked out..

we have one poster here.. convinced of some kind of illusion of safety.. how many years after the demise of herr victser..

can't describe it, or define it. But somehow, it is there..

[Ham]

I dunno. Why is it so frightening, for some, to be not any different than anyone else..

no *special* privileges .. no *special* treatment..

there are no guarantees here..

safe harbor?

You've got to be kidding..

[So_crates]

yes, and how did that turn out..

I can say one thing how that's worked out..

we have one poster here.. convinced of some kind of illusion of safety.. how many years after the demise of herr victser..

can't describe it, or define it. But somehow, it is there..

And there are people who insist the earth is flat. That the round earth is just a conspiracy by globe manufacturers.

They've seen men walk on the moon. They've seen Apollo launch.

But somehow, they continue to insist the earth is flat...

How's that for analogy?

SoCrates

PS When I die, I think I'll donate everything I own to the Flat Earth Society.

Edited March 12, 2011 by So_crates

[geisha779]

quote: My opinion differs. To take a young person in their teens or just out away from their family, immerse them in TWI in their homes and all their activities, produces a higher level of indoctrination. Can that be good for people and can they exist in that beneficially? Sure, there's a lot good basic people can do to shield those in their fellowships from the problems higher up. Many of us did that as well. But at some point you have to pay the piper, one way or another.

True enough, but the same can be applied to military service and even college. What those 3, college, military, and wow have in common is discipline. Each of those things is a different kind of discipline, but ANY discipline will take the person's mind off their family and force them to rethink everything. Even a gang can do that. To an extent, I think it's healthy for young people to spend time away from their family comfort zones at some point.

Johniam,

People know what they are signing up for with the military....and I disagree that going to college is a form of indoctrination...that sounds a bit like rhetoric.

Being a WOW didn't promote some kind of genuine evaluation or rethinking, it promoted conformity. Why did 4 of age adult volunteers need a family coordinator? Why did we need someone to oversee and be in charge if it was about genuine evaluation? You shouldn't need someone to crack the whip at volunteers if they are to spend their time rethinking.

I was a family coordinator and my job was to get those classes together and run twigs that grew and split. THAT is how I knew I was successful. I was in a limb town with a limb coordinator breathing down my back. He pushed me to run classes. After all, that is what I was there to do!!! It wasn't about moving the word...it was about running PFAL classes...the two are in no way synonymous. "The word" is Jesus Christ. PFAL is a peculiar perspective on the scriptures. Wow was about winning converts to TWI. We were not telling them they could get the word elsewhere....we were it....PFAL was it.....TWI was the only place that had IT. True enough btw.

In order to be a a WOW one had to have taken PFAL and that is nearly 36 hours of initial indoctrination already under our belts. That mind set and particular way of understanding the bible had already been established. WOW just solidified that mindset. Bring it back to the blue book, work the blue book....you don't remember any of that? I say burn the blue book and buy a good study bible and a decent commentary.

No wonder some people left after the WOW year.....lucky people wised up and figured it out!

Wish I had.

[waysider]

my job was to get those classes together and run twigs that grew and split. THAT is how I knew I was successful. I was in a limb town with a limb coordinator breathing down my back. He pushed me to run classes. After all, that is what I was there to do!!! It wasn't about moving the word...it was about running PFAL classes...the two are in no way synonymous.

Exactly----It says as much right there in the Witnessing and Undershepherding syllabus on page 2.

"The basic reason we witness is to help people into the classes on Power For Abundant Living and help them to walk on it."

Edited March 12, 2011 by waysider

[geisha779]

VP used us to grow his following and fill his coffers...yet, many of us of lived in poverty as WOWs ....tell me he wasn't good at indoctrination.....he had us believing it was for our own good, ... and he actually got us to pay for the privilege.

Evil genius.

[Ham]

He may have said that in the book, but, it certainly wasn't reflected in the way he dealt with Gary Dunhoff's death.

how do you know.. were you there?

Apples and oranges: VP wasn't trying to guilt anyone into service, he was saying get it together or get out. He was harder on way corps than others; he thought God let that happen because they knew better. He was saying after all this time why don't you believe me.

and that perhaps is the focal point of the error. "why don't you believe.. *MEEE.."

believe what..

colonic scrubbing, with psyllium seed and a colloidal suspension of bentonite was the *way* to true spirituality?

colon cleansing.. wild conspiracy theories.. far out doctrines.. drambuie and female "companionship" unlimited..

you know he really wasn't a doctor, don't you?

Do you remember "Dr Bronner's" magic soap?

I actually emailed them, and asked about the "dr's" credentials.

and they gave me an honest reply. "no, he REALLY wasn't a doctor.."

why can't old wayfers be just as honest?

[waysider]

you know he really wasn't a doctor, don't you?

Are you sure?

'cause I could have sworn I heard him being introduced as "Dr." Wierwille.

I mean, if he wasn't really a "Dr.", surely he would have insisted that people stop introducing him like that, no?

[Ham]

"you know, my Critics say I got my degree at a diploma mill.. well. you know, *Dr* Lininger.."

oh yeah.. even the syllabus. I don't have it any more but.. wasn't it claimed to be the work of *dr* vp wienerville?

[waysider]

"you know, my Critics say I got my degree at a diploma mill.. well. you know, *Dr* Lininger.."

Oh, yeah, Dr. Lininger. Wasn't he the president of The University of Chicago or something? Or was it Harvard?

"you know, my Critics say I got my degree at a diploma mill.. well. you know, *Dr* Lininger.."

oh yeah.. even the syllabus. I don't have it any more but.. wasn't it claimed to be the work of *dr* vp wienerville?

Ahhhhh...I have here in front of me a PFAL syllabus.

....................................

POWER

for

abundant

living

with

Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille

Copyright, The Way Inc., 1968

.................................................

[Ham]

I gave all that junk to one of my kids to sell on Ebay. Never happened. It was "rescued" by an offshoot..

gawd forbid, that we have da greatness of da word, fall into "enemy" hands..

very, very interesting..

I don't know about now. But the ex regarded these materials, even after they horribly failed.. as some kind of TREASURE..

really, really, weird..

explains a lot, to me.

So all I have to do, to get the seven to nine syllabi, pfal books, and the rest of the junk back.. is to..

go back to "twig".

no thanks. keep your ill gotten "treasure"..

in the mean time. Please scratch my name off of the inside covers..

[waysider]

I never noticed until just now that it says "with", not "by".

Sheesh. That could have simplified those old plagiarism threads a bit, ya know?

[waysider]

I can't begin to even tell you all the great spiritual truths God taught me while I was marking all my dechomai's and lambano's. (Think how especially wonderful that is, when you consider that the D&L concept has been shown to be based on faulty "research".)

And all those hours spent putting my big HS's and little hs's in my Zondervan Bible with the specially made leather cover, complete with the holy spirit dove, descending at the ministry approved angle, is time I'll always treasure, as I reflect on the highlights of my precious memories.

[waysider]

And who can forget this old T.V.ad for PFAL?

"I'm not a real doctor but I play one at Rock of Ages."

[Ham]

I had in my Oxford loose leaf bible..a complete transcription of the 62 page holy relic..

every usage of lambano and dechomai, not just those translated as "recieve" diligently marked..

whole pages of literal "translations" by da way..

most of the intermediate class syllabus..

every reference in Bullinger's "also"..

figures of speech..

maybe this needs a new thread..

[waysider]

One of my favorite lines from PFAL:

"Even if you get to heaven and find out it's not there, I will have had one kick azz time riding my motor scooters."

........................................

Oops! Sorry John.

We seem to have derailed "your" thread.

You've taught us well.

Edited March 12, 2011 by waysider

[T-Bone]

Waysider, you're in pretty good company