Without trying to sound too cynical, I pose the question: What did Wierwille ever do that could be construed as an example to follow? How about Howard Allen? Seriously, what,specifically, did they ever really do that people could pattern their lives after?
It's interesting that currently the old timers are held up as pillars of the church. Like Vic, Ermal, Harry, George Jess, etc. It's taught into the in-residence way corps that these men led by example, they are almost made to sound like they are pioneers and the in-rez corps are inheriting the silver spoon.
I thought this would make an interesting topic since many here knew these men (and others) and likely saw their example.
My husband worked with George Jess a few times...planting trees.....we both have the same strong feelings about TWI...but, he does say that George Jess was a very gentle and kind man...the very little he knew him.
Jess taught hubby to plant trees...hubby ended up a Master Gardener. He said Jess knew what he was doing when it came to planting trees. For what any of that is worth to your question. :)
I guess I should add..planting trees in TWI had nothing to do with my husband's choice of vocation...that was from years wasted working for some tyrant of a limb leader. By the time we got out...it was all he knew...so he went with it and took to a new level. Sad isn't it?
Ever notice there are some familiar names that NEVER seem to come up on the threads about abuse? Names like George Jess, Ray and Vera Kaderly, and Mal George, to name just a few. I don't think that's a coincidence.
I'll also vouch for George Jess. I worked with him once. He, at least with me, was a man of few words, though I heard later that he would talk your ear off about the Cincinnati Reds. He was the type of worker who didn't particularly move all that fast, but he was so efficient that he accomplished things quickly. He was a peaceful guy to be around.
Frankly, Howard Allen, VP, and Donald were always nice to me. I'm not defending them nor am I saying they didn't commit sin. To me, though, they were always nice and respectful. Sometimes VP gave me the "willys". I was College Division so I had opportunity to spend time with Don. I was a young kid of 18 and like a lot of guys in my generation, I didn't have a whole lot of men that gave me much attention. Don W. did, and he took a very strong interest in my education, seriously. When he became V.P. we didn't get to talk as much.
Ever notice there are some familiar names that NEVER seem to come up on the threads about abuse? Names like George Jess, Ray and Vera Kaderly, and Mal George, to name just a few. I don't think that's a coincidence.
Doesn't mean that every name you hear was involved in abuse does it?
geisha's account about George Jess at the least sounded like he was a genuine person? (I've only heard of him, don't know the man,) While were talking was KC Pillai a pedophile? I mean does everyone have to be that ever was made mention to by twi made into a pervert? Or a sex abuser? Or a rapist?
It's interesting that currently the old timers are held up as pillars of the church. Like Vic, Ermal, Harry, George Jess, etc. It's taught into the in-residence way corps that these men led by example, they are almost made to sound like they are pioneers...
Seems to me.....wierwille used george jess as a "front man." Designated as the first corps director, george jess gave cover for wierwille.
Who REALLY believed that george jess was the first corps DIRECTOR?
More importantly, what made him such an authority on a culture that existed so long ago? Would someone in New York City, 2,000 years from now, be able to claim to be an authority on 21st century customs in New Orleans?
Interesting responses. Could be that Vic surrounded himself with some hardworking, descent people. Could be that Vic learned to take advantage of the church early on and corrupted others who had the same proclivity?
More importantly, what made him such an authority on a culture that existed so long ago? Would someone in New York City, 2,000 years from now, be able to claim to be an authority on 21st century customs in New Orleans?
His wine is legend, so it was really good? I hear he used concord grapes and wine snobs frown on the concord. I like them personally and used to eat them whenever I found them hanging on the vine around HQ.
So, VPW had some good men around him. Average, but hardworking and basically good people. It would then seem that he hyped them to get the keeeds to not only work away on staff, but also to go out and get busy with WOW and way corps. Just trying to piece some of the history together. Is this about the size of things?
Again, I can't emphasize enough how much legend surrounds these old timers in today's TWI. I was even told by the directors that I needed to be more like George Jess a few times. More hands on, less office work - even though I was buried in useless paper all the time. Not as though I wasn't hands on either. Anywho. They never really explained much about Jess just that he was a leader who was out front with his people all the time, working away. They made him sound like one of Jesus Apostles. I doubt their account and no doubt he was not up to his neck in corporate responsibilities, reports and such. I get the impression that he was a good hard worker, but beyond that they really did not know the man. But I needed to be like the persona they projected to me. I never took the bait.
Same when I was in-rez. I mean they made Vic's peers sound like they were the most incredible people you would ever want to meet. Strong in believing, able to move mountains, able to bring in great abundance to TWI, frequently working miracles and healing the sick. I could go on but enough said. It sort of made you feel like you should aspire to walk in these great one's foot steps, be like them so to speak. It also made the current directors seem rather feeble by comparison. Guess their hype job backfired a little?
His wine is legend, so it was really good? I hear he used concord grapes and wine snobs frown on the concord. I like them personally and used to eat them whenever I found them hanging on the vine around HQ.
Giorgio Jessio. Abundant in quantity if not quality. Several versions - the dessert version had sugar added and higher alchohol content. Better to numb the brain at holiday parties to explain away your mundane existence. But no - legendary more in the name than the quality. I guess that's representative of TWI, though, isn't it?
So, VPW had some good men around him. Average, but hardworking and basically good people. It would then seem that he hyped them to get the keeeds to not only work away on staff, but also to go out and get busy with WOW and way corps. Just trying to piece some of the history together. Is this about the size of things?
yeah mostly.
Again, I can't emphasize enough how much legend surrounds these old timers in today's TWI. I was even told by the directors that I needed to be more like George Jess a few times. More hands on, less office work - even though I was buried in useless paper all the time. Not as though I wasn't hands on either. Anywho. They never really explained much about Jess just that he was a leader who was out front with his people all the time, working away. They made him sound like one of Jesus Apostles. I doubt their account and no doubt he was not up to his neck in corporate responsibilities, reports and such. I get the impression that he was a good hard worker, but beyond that they really did not know the man. But I needed to be like the persona they projected to me. I never took the bait.
I met him a few times. Not much of a conversationalist - maybe 10 words total out of multiple conversations. The directors didn't know him either, mostly. Maybe Mittler. The ironic thing about it is that I'm sure if they tried to make George Jess turn in a schedule, he would give them a puzzled look and walk away without a word. He was mostly a local farmer type. Which is why he worked. He helped in the whole 70's Corps model of getting hippies off horse by doing farm labor. I'm sure that compared to those dip sh1t$ in the Directors he probably was like one of Jesus Apostles. He worked, didn't mouth off, and didn't cheat on his wife.
But of course those clowns enshrine anything. The purpose of it all is indoctrination and control, not reality.
Same when I was in-rez. I mean they made Vic's peers sound like they were the most incredible people you would ever want to meet. Strong in believing, able to move mountains, able to bring in great abundance to TWI, frequently working miracles and healing the sick. I could go on but enough said. It sort of made you feel like you should aspire to walk in these great one's foot steps, be like them so to speak. It also made the current directors seem rather feeble by comparison. Guess their hype job backfired a little?
Again, comparatively, maybe so. Which means they were your average Christian church going farm folk with morals.
I met him a few times. Not much of a conversationalist - maybe 10 words total out of multiple conversations.als.
Ironic that they hold him in very high esteem for telling the corps at one of their meetings "communicate, communicate, communicate." And then he turned and walked away w/o another word.
Again, comparatively, maybe so. Which means they were your average Christian church going farm folk with morals.
Yep......that pretty much sums it up.
Away from the smog of sh!tville New Knoxville and the passing of time......these enablers probably never connected the dots of wierwille's ploy. So, yeah....its fair to say that these 'pillars' were just your average Joe Cornfield.
Ironic that they hold him in very high esteem for telling the corps at one of their meetings "communicate, communicate, communicate." And then he turned and walked away w/o another word.
And with wierwille.....
Ironic that he was highly esteemed for preaching 'it's the word, the word, and nothing but the word.' And then......he left the podium and walked in darkness.
I don't mean to sound rude. . . . . and I truly do not mean to be harsh....but, for me, I honestly believe my life would have been better if I never heard any of their names. I could have lived quite nicely without knowing about some old farm in Ohio.
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waysider
Without trying to sound too cynical, I pose the question: What did Wierwille ever do that could be construed as an example to follow? How about Howard Allen? Seriously, what,specifically, did they ever really do that people could pattern their lives after?
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geisha779
My husband worked with George Jess a few times...planting trees.....we both have the same strong feelings about TWI...but, he does say that George Jess was a very gentle and kind man...the very little he knew him.
Jess taught hubby to plant trees...hubby ended up a Master Gardener. He said Jess knew what he was doing when it came to planting trees. For what any of that is worth to your question. :)
I guess I should add..planting trees in TWI had nothing to do with my husband's choice of vocation...that was from years wasted working for some tyrant of a limb leader. By the time we got out...it was all he knew...so he went with it and took to a new level. Sad isn't it?
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waysider
Ever notice there are some familiar names that NEVER seem to come up on the threads about abuse? Names like George Jess, Ray and Vera Kaderly, and Mal George, to name just a few. I don't think that's a coincidence.
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Broken Arrow
I'll also vouch for George Jess. I worked with him once. He, at least with me, was a man of few words, though I heard later that he would talk your ear off about the Cincinnati Reds. He was the type of worker who didn't particularly move all that fast, but he was so efficient that he accomplished things quickly. He was a peaceful guy to be around.
Frankly, Howard Allen, VP, and Donald were always nice to me. I'm not defending them nor am I saying they didn't commit sin. To me, though, they were always nice and respectful. Sometimes VP gave me the "willys". I was College Division so I had opportunity to spend time with Don. I was a young kid of 18 and like a lot of guys in my generation, I didn't have a whole lot of men that gave me much attention. Don W. did, and he took a very strong interest in my education, seriously. When he became V.P. we didn't get to talk as much.
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Human without the bean
Doesn't mean that every name you hear was involved in abuse does it?
geisha's account about George Jess at the least sounded like he was a genuine person? (I've only heard of him, don't know the man,) While were talking was KC Pillai a pedophile? I mean does everyone have to be that ever was made mention to by twi made into a pervert? Or a sex abuser? Or a rapist?
Aren't we talking pillars of the church?
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waysider
Some led by example in a good way. Some led by example in a bad way. Unfortunately, the ratio of good to bad was unbalanced.
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skyrider
Seems to me.....wierwille used george jess as a "front man." Designated as the first corps director, george jess gave cover for wierwille.
Who REALLY believed that george jess was the first corps DIRECTOR?
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mstar1
Was he really a Bishop?
Bishops generally have very large responsibilies and are pastor to several churches in a diocese of a specific geographic location.
I never met him, just curious.
Its not a position that is given lightly by most groups
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waysider
More importantly, what made him such an authority on a culture that existed so long ago? Would someone in New York City, 2,000 years from now, be able to claim to be an authority on 21st century customs in New Orleans?
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OldSkool
Interesting responses. Could be that Vic surrounded himself with some hardworking, descent people. Could be that Vic learned to take advantage of the church early on and corrupted others who had the same proclivity?
Sounds fishy. PT Barnum marketing and such.
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skyrider
Wierwille and co. had a way of hyping the "pillars of the church."
1) Wierwille.....his tall-tale stories of the '50s didn't match his '70s example?
2) Harry.........umm, he ran an upholstery business. So?
3) Ermal.........nice guy and all, but a "pillar?" Nope
4) Don...........happens all the time, everywhere. Son gets stake in father's business.
5) Howard........worked in a Kentucky lumberyard. Later drove the party coach.
6) Dorothy, Rhoda......no kids, plenty of time for organ/piano and work
7) Craig...............this pillar was slipped out the back door at midnight.
All that leadership/pillar stuff was hyperbole for twi-consumption.
There are people everywhere......business, church, community, non-profit......that exhibit inspirational, sleeves-rolled-up, leadership.
.
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outandabout
George Jess made good wine.
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OldSkool
His wine is legend, so it was really good? I hear he used concord grapes and wine snobs frown on the concord. I like them personally and used to eat them whenever I found them hanging on the vine around HQ.
So, VPW had some good men around him. Average, but hardworking and basically good people. It would then seem that he hyped them to get the keeeds to not only work away on staff, but also to go out and get busy with WOW and way corps. Just trying to piece some of the history together. Is this about the size of things?
Again, I can't emphasize enough how much legend surrounds these old timers in today's TWI. I was even told by the directors that I needed to be more like George Jess a few times. More hands on, less office work - even though I was buried in useless paper all the time. Not as though I wasn't hands on either. Anywho. They never really explained much about Jess just that he was a leader who was out front with his people all the time, working away. They made him sound like one of Jesus Apostles. I doubt their account and no doubt he was not up to his neck in corporate responsibilities, reports and such. I get the impression that he was a good hard worker, but beyond that they really did not know the man. But I needed to be like the persona they projected to me. I never took the bait.
Same when I was in-rez. I mean they made Vic's peers sound like they were the most incredible people you would ever want to meet. Strong in believing, able to move mountains, able to bring in great abundance to TWI, frequently working miracles and healing the sick. I could go on but enough said. It sort of made you feel like you should aspire to walk in these great one's foot steps, be like them so to speak. It also made the current directors seem rather feeble by comparison. Guess their hype job backfired a little?
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chockfull
Giorgio Jessio. Abundant in quantity if not quality. Several versions - the dessert version had sugar added and higher alchohol content. Better to numb the brain at holiday parties to explain away your mundane existence. But no - legendary more in the name than the quality. I guess that's representative of TWI, though, isn't it?
yeah mostly.
I met him a few times. Not much of a conversationalist - maybe 10 words total out of multiple conversations. The directors didn't know him either, mostly. Maybe Mittler. The ironic thing about it is that I'm sure if they tried to make George Jess turn in a schedule, he would give them a puzzled look and walk away without a word. He was mostly a local farmer type. Which is why he worked. He helped in the whole 70's Corps model of getting hippies off horse by doing farm labor. I'm sure that compared to those dip sh1t$ in the Directors he probably was like one of Jesus Apostles. He worked, didn't mouth off, and didn't cheat on his wife.
But of course those clowns enshrine anything. The purpose of it all is indoctrination and control, not reality.
Again, comparatively, maybe so. Which means they were your average Christian church going farm folk with morals.
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OldSkool
Ironic that they hold him in very high esteem for telling the corps at one of their meetings "communicate, communicate, communicate." And then he turned and walked away w/o another word.
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skyrider
Yep......that pretty much sums it up.
Away from the smog of sh!tville New Knoxville and the passing of time......these enablers probably never connected the dots of wierwille's ploy. So, yeah....its fair to say that these 'pillars' were just your average Joe Cornfield.
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skyrider
And with wierwille.....
Ironic that he was highly esteemed for preaching 'it's the word, the word, and nothing but the word.' And then......he left the podium and walked in darkness.
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geisha779
I don't mean to sound rude. . . . . and I truly do not mean to be harsh....but, for me, I honestly believe my life would have been better if I never heard any of their names. I could have lived quite nicely without knowing about some old farm in Ohio.
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outandabout
When I said George Jess's wine was good, I was thinking of the nice buzz.
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Broken Arrow
That, and they wear these really big hats.
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