“God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?”
To say that God does contradict Himself is to judge God and reduce Him to a man....To deny the multifaceted relation of being which is God is to deny ourselves. We are made in His image and most of us can at least attempt to articulate what it means to temper justice with mercy. Milton understood this. Most people do. It doesn't make them contradictory concepts. It makes them attributes in perfect relation to each other.
True fear of the Lord is to recognize who He is as He is......a being in perfect relationship.....and not simply say because He can do something....He does. God is inviolate.
Perhaps, the problems in TWI and CES do not simply come from believing the bible doesn't contradict itself, but rather......what a man purposes in his heart...so is he.
Most Christians don't believe God contradicts Himself....yet, they do not handle the scriptures deceitfully. A and B do not equal C.
I think of Ecclesiastes 3 when this contradiction stuff comes up.
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
I do believe this happens.
Vital is for the man to die to see, or find out as this scripture says.
“God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?”
To say that God does contradict Himself is to judge God and reduce Him to a man....To deny the multifaceted relation of being which is God is to deny ourselves. We are made in His image and most of us can at least attempt to articulate what it means to temper justice with mercy. Milton understood this. Most people do. It doesn't make them contradictory concepts. It makes them attributes in perfect relation to each other.
True fear of the Lord is to recognize who He is as He is......a being in perfect relationship.....and not simply say because He can do something....He does. God is inviolate.
Perhaps, the problems in TWI and CES do not simply come from believing the bible doesn't contradict itself, but rather......what a man purposes in his heart...so is he.
Most Christians don't believe God contradicts Himself....yet, they do not handle the scriptures deceitfully. A and B do not equal C.
I don't know if you realize this, but you've changed the subject from the Bible contradicting itself to God contradicting Himself.
I don't know if you realize this, but you've changed the subject from the Bible contradicting itself to God contradicting Himself.
Oh, that was me? I thought I was responding in general to the assertions made in post 50#.
To judge that God cannot contradict Himself is to reduce God to the level of man. It is to put God in a box.
God can do ANYTHING He dang well pleases! That's why HE is God and I am not. To recognize that God can do anything He dang well pleases, and I cannot, IS the fear of the Lord!
God CAN contradict Himself!
And He does so every time we draw breath.
Waysider.....will you please just put me on ignore? I am asking nicely and I would greatly appreciate it.
The way "the Bible contains no contradictions" was taught by both TWI AND CES was a lie from hell used to persuade people to switch off their critical thinking as they listened to Wierwille's teachings (and the "baby" CES did not "throw out with the bath water") and as they read the Bible in light of those teachings.
All of the other lies we bought into, the lies that wreaked so much havoc in our lives, we bought into because we bought into this one first.
Love,
Steve
Tzaia said it better when she pointed out it wasn't that we were taught THE BIBLE was inerrant,
but when we were taught TWI was inerrant, that the problems start.
If you teach the Bible is inerrant, I can accept that and reject some of your other teachings-
you are not the Bible and there's no guarantee you'll agree with it on all points.
What reason do people have for saying the Bible doesn't contradict itself? Is it because we've been taught that the Bible is God-breathed, and God cannot contradict Himself?
What reason do people have for saying the Bible-or God- contradict themselves?
Is it because they're intellectually lazy?
Look-
a small child, at one time, is humored by his parents, and at another time he is dealt with sternly.
Are his parents contradicting themselves?
That's possible, they are human.
It's more likely that the limited understanding of the small child THINKS they contradict,
when he is simply unable to see the higher-order considerations in effect.
The parents don't allow a child to do things that run a risk of injuring him.
The child may PERCEIVE that as them contradicting themselves (or being mean.)
When it comes to God, we are less able to perceive the grand scale He does than a young child
can keep up with adults having a philosophical discussion on the nature of good and evil.
To judge that God cannot contradict Himself is to reduce God to the level of man. It is to put God in a box.
To conclude that God DOES contradict Himself just because he has the capacity to do so-
and cnclude he WOULD just because he COULD-
is as just and fair as accusing you of rape just because you have the necessary tools to do so.
Of course, you would not rape because it would be wrong for you to do so.....
Come on, follow it one step further...
God can do ANYTHING He dang well pleases! That's why HE is God and I am not. To recognize that God can do anything He dang well pleases, and I cannot, IS the fear of the Lord!
God CAN produce wildly imaginative species every day-
winged hippopotami, landsharks, and so on.
He does not-because that upsets the order He put into effect, and He's better than that
whether or not we perceive it.
God CAN contradict Himself!
And He does so every time we draw breath.
God said "...in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shall surely die."
If God had not contradicted Himself, we would all have been kaput long ago. God contradicts Himself EVERY TIME He extends mercy!
Do you wonder where mercy went to in TWI? ...the Bible doesn't contradict itself!
Do you wonder how the leaders of CES tied themselves up in such senseless knots? ...the Bible doesn't contradict itself!
I can make God be what I want Him to be, and do what I want Him to do, if I can make the Bible say what I want it to say by rationalizing its contradictions. That is NOT the fear of the Lord!
Psalm 36 (NIV)
"1 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked. There is no fear of God before his eyes.
"2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin.
"3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful: he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
"Even on his bed he plots evil, he commits himself to a sinful course and does not reject what is wrong."
No, we're not supposed to FEAR God! Heavens, no! Otherwise, the Bible would contradict itself. It would all fall apart. We're just supposed to RESPECT Him, just as we would an old uncle that we no longer have to obey!
Love,
Steve
That was either all very sloppy, or examples of someone who decided they knew the answers before
asking the questions. I'm willing to try to address any or all of those- and I would- for someone
who honestly wants to know. Sounds like if I bothered to try here, however, it would be a waste
of typing.
I see a God who, at ultimate levels, makes perfect sense and NEVER contradicts- He plays by His rules
and is faithful to them. I'm willing to admit the weak link in the chain is my stupidity and
not God's constancy.
I don't know if you realize this, but you've changed the subject from the Bible contradicting itself to God contradicting Himself.
I don't know if you realized this, but Steve L did it and Geisha responded to him.
If you want to "blame" someone for the expansion of the topic (it's still on "inerrancy" and "contradiction",
you might point that at Steve and not Geisha.
Me, I thought both of them were on-topic as far as this discussion has gone.
I don't know. Does anyone? So, suppose we take the word "spiritual" out and just talk about enlightenment in general. Enlightenment, on any subject, is not fostered by rigid adherence to an attitude of "inerrancy". Enlightenment comes with exploration, experimentation, reconsideration, expanding ones vistas of learning.
a little off topic, but maybe not...
ive looked into this. further complicated is how there are about a dozen different ways "spiritual" is used in English. Some say it means "supernatural," some say it means "emotional," some say it means "existential", some say it means "causal," some say it means "whatever is your ultimate concern", so on and so forth. So I say it depends on how the word is being used in that moment. As long as we are at least interested in inquiring, the word can be useful. Otherwise, its as confusing as any other of those old words, like "God" "love" "heaven" "hell" etc... We may assume someone is using it the same way we do...but odds are against it.
"enlightenment" too, a diverse set of definitions in play. In addition to being the result of exploration, experimentation and such as waysider pointed out, i would have to add "enlightenment" also comes with disillusionment and loss of previous views. And is oftentimes accidental, unexpected, and comes with a certain element of confusion. Some speak of "enlightenment" as being some sort of ultimate once-in-a-lifetime event. Others consider the onset of rational thought (in people or the world) as enlightenment. Others say life is an ongoing series of big and little enlightenments, involving different depths and degrees of enlightenments. I can also appreciate the old saying that "death is enlightenment at gunpoint." Some sages of old, when referring to "the ground of awareness" that enlightenment seekers seek, ask "who is not already enlightened?"
So, perhaps not only does TWi contradict itself, scripture contradicts itself, God contradicts God, we contradict ourselves...even language contradicts itself....perfectly imperfect.
What reason do people have for saying the Bible-or God- contradict themselves?
Is it because they're intellectually lazy?
Look-
a small child, at one time, is humored by his parents, and at another time he is dealt with sternly.
Are his parents contradicting themselves?
That's possible, they are human.
It's more likely that the limited understanding of the small child THINKS they contradict,
when he is simply unable to see the higher-order considerations in effect.
The parents don't allow a child to do things that run a risk of injuring him.
The child may PERCEIVE that as them contradicting themselves (or being mean.)
When it comes to God, we are less able to perceive the grand scale He does than a young child
can keep up with adults having a philosophical discussion on the nature of good and evil.
To conclude that God DOES contradict Himself just because he has the capacity to do so-
and cnclude he WOULD just because he COULD-
is as just and fair as accusing you of rape just because you have the necessary tools to do so.
Of course, you would not rape because it would be wrong for you to do so.....
Come on, follow it one step further...
God CAN produce wildly imaginative species every day-
winged hippopotami, landsharks, and so on.
He does not-because that upsets the order He put into effect, and He's better than that
whether or not we perceive it.
That was either all very sloppy, or examples of someone who decided they knew the answers before
asking the questions. I'm willing to try to address any or all of those- and I would- for someone
who honestly wants to know. Sounds like if I bothered to try here, however, it would be a waste
of typing.
I see a God who, at ultimate levels, makes perfect sense and NEVER contradicts- He plays by His rules
and is faithful to them. I'm willing to admit the weak link in the chain is my stupidity and
not God's constancy.
..........
Spot on ....knowing that God can do anything He pleases is not the same thing as knowing what God pleases. Saying He can do anything and then assuming He will contradict Himself is really not the fear of the Lord. That is bringing God down to our level rather than seeking His. God is inviolate, in tact.....
Through scripture, God does express Himself to us. Yes, it is with imperfect language, but it is not impossible to glimpse at the complete holy and right state of being which is God. To us, finite beings, who are imperfect and flawed, completeness and perfection are almost impossible concepts. They can seem paradoxical. However, paradox is not always the same thing as contradiction, although people often use them interchangeably.
To explain Him in finite terms is just futile and we end up with nothing IMO. Well, we end up with a pretty shaky and uncertain God.
Rather, as you say, assuming we are missing something....and having that humbleness before complete perfection......our questions are usually answered. It is a relationship....and it grows. Knowing our place in the relationship really does help. We are not the definers...He is who He is....but, when trying to describe the indescribable...it can get pretty tricky. There are a great many temptations to neatly wrap it up.
I think you should, as you have offered, write out some of these things. Although you may not see it right away....it does reach, touch, and help people. It might be like Nicodemus coming in the night...but, people do let you know.
“God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?”
And I suppose that the point of quoting this is to show that the Bible says that God does not lie, thus God cannot lie. Period.
But the verse goes on to say "or the son of man, the he should change his mind (repent). Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"
There are plenty of places where God changes His mind (repents), where He says something but does not do it (because He changes His mind). This seems contradictory if the above verse is universally applicable.
If the fact that He will not change His mind is applicable only here where Balaam is speaking to Balak then is that true also of the statement that He cannot (or shouldn't) lie?
I'm truly wanting to know. Please pardon me if this has already been covered or is too elementary.
“God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?”
And I suppose that the point of quoting this is to show that the Bible says that God does not lie, thus God cannot lie. Period.
But the verse goes on to say "or the son of man, the he should change his mind (repent). Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"
There are plenty of places where God changes His mind (repents), where He says something but does not do it (because He changes His mind). This seems contradictory if the above verse is universally applicable.
If the fact that He will not change His mind is applicable only here where Balaam is speaking to Balak then is that true also of the statement that He cannot (or shouldn't) lie?
I'm truly wanting to know. Please pardon me if this has already been covered or is too elementary.
Peace
Most people here will try to answer any question, as long as they have time, it's asked
in a civil manner, and the person seems to really want to know.
(The rare exceptions generally relate to details on specific members of vpw's family
who do not post here and probably want to get on with their lives.)
Geisha can answer for herself. I'll take a shot at it, any way. (Hey, it's free.)
If you posit a God who knows the immediate future as much as the present (and the distant future),
then He knows the result of every conversation, and every deal.
That means that God knew Israel would be unfaithful to Him each and every time they were going to
be unfaithful, and, knowing that, He still treated them faithfully and kept up His end of every
agreement. He also acts as if He exists in linear time-when, technically, He does not-He knows
the results of all discussions and interactions before they happen. For the benefit of us
humans, he interacts down at our level of understanding so we can deal with Him.
(This reminded me once of the scientific construct "Flatland." But that's another thread.)
So, when He speaks to Adam and Eve, He knows full well what they have done-He's using a
"VOICE" when previously the 5 senses weren't specified-He knows their spirit's dead.
He asks each what they have done. Doesn't He know? It's blatantly obvious He knew- but He
asked them for THEIR understanding, not His own. He was going to hold them to account
for what they did- and made sure they understood it was their own fault for breaking the
rules they clearly understood.
When Abraham negotiates with God concerning Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham gets God to agree
to spare them if 50 righteous can be found there-then 40, then 30, then 20, then 10.
God knew all this, but permitted all this for Abraham's sake- and stopped before Abraham
asked Him to spare them for the sake of one, because God was not going to do that.
And so on. God has delivered warnings to people- "You will die shortly"- who repented and
returned to faithful paths- then God told them they would live longer. Did God change His
mind? No, He had to give them the first message knowing that would get them to the point
the last message would apply.
Simply put, He deals with us as if He exists limited as we are, for our sake. He is not,
Sir G....that is almost too beautiful an analogy to apply, but apply it does. Nicely said.
thanks, Geisha
thought i would retrace my steps to find out where i first heard it.
probably here:
"Don't think; feel. It's like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger, or you will miss all the heavenly glory." Bruce Lee in Enter The Dragon
and then here:
The nun Wu Jincang asked the Sixth Patriach Huineng, "I have studied the Mahaparinirvana sutra for many years, yet there are many areas i do not quite understand. Please enlighten me."
The patriach responded, "I am illiterate. Please read out the characters to me and perhaps i will be able to explain the meaning."
Said the nun, "You cannot even recognize the characters. How are you able then to understand the meaning?"
"Truth has nothing to do with words. Truth can be likened to the bright moon in the sky. Words, in this case, can be likened to a finger. The finger can point to the moon's location. However, the finger is not the moon. To look at the moon, it is necessary to gaze beyond the finger, right?"
"God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"
And I suppose that the point of quoting this is to show that the Bible says that God does not lie, thus God cannot lie. Period.
But the verse goes on to say "or the son of man, the he should change his mind (repent). Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"
There are plenty of places where God changes His mind (repents), where He says something but does not do it (because He changes His mind). This seems contradictory if the above verse is universally applicable.
If the fact that He will not change His mind is applicable only here where Balaam is speaking to Balak then is that true also of the statement that He cannot (or shouldn't) lie?
I'm truly wanting to know. Please pardon me if this has already been covered or is too elementary.
Peace
Hi Pat....
WordWolf did a great job explaining this to you as we understand it....I say we because his explanation is how I too understand it. I would only reiterate that if you look at these questions from the vantage point of God's condescension(Which is a major plot line in scripture)...it not only begins to unfold how God doesn't really change His mind...., but more importantly....it begins to reveal a truly loving and compassionate God. He condescends, because He is good. God is good.
He doesn't have to do any of this...use language so that we can understand....and He certainly doesn't have to use anthropomorphic language(taking on human attributes) but He does. He could answer us with one lightening bolt for yes, two for no. From the beginning He has always used language..... Jesus is called the word.
Speaking directly to the account in Numbers of Baalam, if you take a look at it..... the statement, "God is not a man that He should lie"....it is an overall true statement, but it is also directed specifically to Baalam....a lying prophet. It is contrasting two natures...God vs Baalam.
There is also a difference between an edict and an absolute command. Note God's conversation with Abraham about Sodom and Gomorrah. ( I know WW covered this) But, God did allow Abraham some wiggle room. It wasn't as if old Ab was more moral than God in pleading for those lives.....and Abraham kept confessing each time he bargained..."we know you are merciful." He wasn't flattering God or manipulating Him, Abraham knew God. God was gracious and very generous with Abraham in allowing him to ask. That was for Abraham....not for God to change His mind. That is how God is...gentle, loving, kind and generous. He cares, He loves, and He gives amazing gifts to people.
Look at the account of Him wrestling with Jacob. When He asked Jacob what his name was...it wasn't because He didn't know. He was giving Jacob a chance to come clean. Jacob had lied about his name to his father. When God asked Jacob his name.... that was condescension and also amazing grace. God also gave Him a new name. That always moves me. He also left Jacob with a reminder...and that too was kindness.
Jesus healed the man who was born blind for God's glory.... at first glance....this can look pretty messed up. Jesus was undoing what He basically said God had done. Yet, He was doing it for God's glory. Huh? What about the poor guy who had to suffer blindness for God's glory....seems paradoxical to a loving God.
The cheap way out is to say God is a contradiction. However, we look at things from a different vantage point than God....linear....in the moment. The 30 years or so this man was blind is nothing compared to the glory of his eternity. God knows this. Our momentary suffering is nothing compared to the far more exceeding weight of eternal glory.
For God to say something once...it is enough....but, He reaches out again and again.
In TWI we were trained to spend all our time arguing over nuances and words....all time wasted IMO when we could have been coming to know Him and reveling in Him and His goodness. It is like a beggar being given a 7 course meal and only sitting there complaining about the spot on the silverware.
Sorry this is so long....if you got through.....I applaud!!
_________________________________________
Excathedra:
How about instead of saying we are thinking we know more than God.....maybe some of us are speaking to each other to come to know Him. I don't think anyone here really thinks they know more than God....but sometimes it is good to relate with the people touched by the same aberrant influences. Hope that makes sense.
Bruce Lee.... Enter the Dragon? Funny, that is funny because it is so poetic and the way you used it was so apropos. I don't always agree with you or with cman for that matter....but I do glean some really great wisdom. I should mention that I appreciate that and both of your contributions.
Bruce Lee? I think it sounded nicer coming from you. :)
Thanks WordWolf and Geisha. I'm reviewing the discussion that WordWolf pointed me to and am considering what both of you said. I think I'll need to print them out and sit down with a pot of tea and mull this over.
Our eyeballs send signals to our brains about the locations of objects on a 2-dimensional plane. The signals contradict each other. They say that the same object is at different places on a 2-dimensional plane. Our brains do NOT resolve these apparent contradictions. They integrate the contradictory information to produce extra-dimensional images. I say the images are "extra-dimensional" because the brain takes two sets of contradictory information about spatial locations in two dimensions, and achieves perception of a third dimension.
Is a contradiction automatically a lie? No it is not! To "contradict" simply means to "speak against". Is either eyeball lying when their signals speak against each other? They are each telling the truth from a different viewpoint. Their contradictory signals are integrated into a higher-dimensional understanding.
Now we can very easily test the contradictions our eyeballs are sending to our brains. Extend you hand out to arm's length, with the thumb pointing upward. Close one eye and mark the location of your thumb against some object in the reasonable distance. Now, without moving your thumb or your head, close the eye you were looking through, and open the other. Notice how it seems that your thumb moves, even though you have not moved it.
OMG! Where is my thumb REALLY at!?! I decide that I cannot live with this contradiction, so I take to dressing like a pirate and wear a patch over one of my eyes. I have resolved the apparent contradiction, but in the process, I have also lost my depth perception, and become a very unreliable driver (except by using my memory to reconstruct the missing contradiction from other visual information, such as planar perspective or relative size perspective, or even aerial perspective in the case of objects so distant that the intervening air changes the perceived colors of the objects).
No detached observer can honestly deny that the four gospels contradict each other. I know my mind had been pickled so long in "the Bible contains no contradictions" that I didn't even notice how the gospels contradict each other. I didn't compare them. I just automatically assumed that everything in them could be harmonized if we put enough effort into the project. But when I DID start comparing them, without automatically assuming that they could be harmonized, I began to see contradictions that CANNOT be resolved.
When we prayerfully consider what we read in the gospels, as Geisha suggests, then the Holy Spirit can integrate their contradictory information to produce an extra-dimensional understanding of who Jesus was, and what He did, and by extension, who WE are, and what WE are to do. How many dimensions? If we accept written information as being linear, then each of the gospels accounts would present a 1-dimensional image. Since there are four gospels, then an extra dimensional understanding would be at least 5-dimensional. Now that's just speculation, but what might we call such an extra-dimensional understanding? Perhaps "spiritual enlightenment"? Perhaps "the living Word of God"?
The signals from our eyeballs contradict each other. They "speak against" each other, yet neither one is lying. Each signal is "true" from the viewpoint of the particular eyeball. Our brains integrate the contradictory information to transcend what our eyeballs are telling us. Just so, the gospels contradict each other, not because the writers were lying, but because the information each gospel presents about who Jesus is and what He did is "true" from the theological viewpoint of its particular writer. The understanding achieved when the Holy Spirit integrates the contradictions transcends the understanding we receive from any one of the gospels by itself.
BUT... if we "resolve the apparent contradictions" the way Wierwille taught in PFAL, it's like putting a pirate patch over one eye, only instead of losing our physical depth perception, we lose our comprehension of the integrity of the living Word of God! And Wierwille was right about that. The integrity of the Word IS always at stake!
People and organizations can sell the resolution of apparent contradictions for money. NOBODY can sell the integration of contradictions to produce transcendence. Only the Holy Spirit can do THAT!
So... those things being understood... I would judge the statement "There are no contradictions in the living Word of God" to be a true statement. I would judge the statement "There are no contradictions in the Bible" to be a false statement. I would judge the statement "God does not lie" to be a true statement. I would judge the statement "God cannot contradict Himself" to be a false statement.
The book of Job is about why bad things happen to good people. The LORD never gives an answer to that question in the book. I hazard to guess that proof-texts can be found at other places in the Old Testament for every one of the ideas Job's miserable comforters brought up, yet in Job 42:7 the LORD told Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath."
What did Job speak of the LORD? "I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee" (Job 42:2)
How did the miserable comforters kindle God's wrath? They were telling Job what God could and could not do based on their resolutions of the apparent contradictions in the Bible. Job's insight into the truth was that God can do whatever He wants to do, even if that entails suffering for the innocent. And suffering for the innocent was exactly what God's will entailed for Jesus Christ!
Here's an example of how there are contradictions in the gospels. This is one that the Holy Spirit has not yet integrated in my understanding. In Matthew, Mark and Luke, we become children of God at our resurrections, when we receive our inheritances as promised in Ezekiel 37. Yet in the gospel of John, and in Paul, we became children of God when we received the gift of the Holy Spirit that was promised in Joel 2:28-32, the earnest of our inheritances. I know what John wrote regarding this contradiction in his first letter, chapter 3,
"1 Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
"2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
"3 And every man that hat this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."
Has the Holy Spirit yet integrated these things in my understanding. No He has not. Am I going to resolve this apparent contradiction by taking one position and trying to rationalize away the other? No I am not. If I did do that, I would short circuit the Holy Spirit's permission to integrate them in my understanding. I would be flattering myself that I know as much as God. I would be flattering myself in my own eyes so much that I wouldn't recognize my own errors, or even care.
"The Bible contains no contradictions" IS one of the biggest lies perpetrated by TWI and some of its offshoots, and it IS one of the root lies that enabled all of the other depradations that those organizations have committed.
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waysider
When I was a little kid, I went to Sunday school at The Brookside Missionary Baptist Church on Forestdale Ave. Like most kids, I suppose, I was somewhat baffled at the prospect of Noah cramming all th
Steve Lortz
The boundary between that which is objective and that which is subjective is the human mind. That which is subjective depends on the mind of the subject. That which is objective exists independently o
Tzaia
is IMO the notion that the bible doesn't contradict itself. Really?
sirguessalot
its as if we have replaced a direct experience of the presence of an immediate God with mere concepts of a remote God.
language, like scripture, is like a finger pointing at the moon...and we can't take our eyes of the finger.
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cman
kindof absolute and relative sirg...maybe
while some only conceive remotely
even that is a relationship
as is direct experience
still having done both
there still seems to be a distance
and direct awareness
somehow not in my control or preference at any given time
cause though i want the presence and experience
which i know is there
the remote is in communication with myself i think
i figure it's not my call
only that i think sometimes, need of both
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geisha779
Sir G....that is almost too beautiful an analogy to apply, but apply it does. Nicely said.
_______________________________________________________________________________
“God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?”
To say that God does contradict Himself is to judge God and reduce Him to a man....To deny the multifaceted relation of being which is God is to deny ourselves. We are made in His image and most of us can at least attempt to articulate what it means to temper justice with mercy. Milton understood this. Most people do. It doesn't make them contradictory concepts. It makes them attributes in perfect relation to each other.
True fear of the Lord is to recognize who He is as He is......a being in perfect relationship.....and not simply say because He can do something....He does. God is inviolate.
Perhaps, the problems in TWI and CES do not simply come from believing the bible doesn't contradict itself, but rather......what a man purposes in his heart...so is he.
Most Christians don't believe God contradicts Himself....yet, they do not handle the scriptures deceitfully. A and B do not equal C.
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cman
I think of Ecclesiastes 3 when this contradiction stuff comes up.
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven
I do believe this happens.
Vital is for the man to die to see, or find out as this scripture says.
No man has seen God....
There has to be alternatives.
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waysider
I don't know if you realize this, but you've changed the subject from the Bible contradicting itself to God contradicting Himself.
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geisha779
Oh, that was me? I thought I was responding in general to the assertions made in post 50#.
To judge that God cannot contradict Himself is to reduce God to the level of man. It is to put God in a box.
God can do ANYTHING He dang well pleases! That's why HE is God and I am not. To recognize that God can do anything He dang well pleases, and I cannot, IS the fear of the Lord!
God CAN contradict Himself!
And He does so every time we draw breath.
Waysider.....will you please just put me on ignore? I am asking nicely and I would greatly appreciate it.
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waysider
I never put anyone on ignore. If you prefer, though, I can simply not respond to your posts.
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cman
reduce god to the level of man?
what does that mean?
could say, we can become one
as JC prayed
no reducing any god or gods
the Son of God
is actually a Son of God
no article 'the'
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WordWolf
Tzaia said it better when she pointed out it wasn't that we were taught THE BIBLE was inerrant,
but when we were taught TWI was inerrant, that the problems start.
If you teach the Bible is inerrant, I can accept that and reject some of your other teachings-
you are not the Bible and there's no guarantee you'll agree with it on all points.
(Statistically, it's likely you'll diverge SOMEWHERE.)
If you teach that YOUR INTERPRETATION of the Bible is inerrant and that the Bible is inerrant,
and I accept that, then any fool thing you say, you can slip past me because THEN I
"switched off my critical thinking."
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WordWolf
What reason do people have for saying the Bible-or God- contradict themselves?
Is it because they're intellectually lazy?
Look-
a small child, at one time, is humored by his parents, and at another time he is dealt with sternly.
Are his parents contradicting themselves?
That's possible, they are human.
It's more likely that the limited understanding of the small child THINKS they contradict,
when he is simply unable to see the higher-order considerations in effect.
The parents don't allow a child to do things that run a risk of injuring him.
The child may PERCEIVE that as them contradicting themselves (or being mean.)
When it comes to God, we are less able to perceive the grand scale He does than a young child
can keep up with adults having a philosophical discussion on the nature of good and evil.
To conclude that God DOES contradict Himself just because he has the capacity to do so-
and cnclude he WOULD just because he COULD-
is as just and fair as accusing you of rape just because you have the necessary tools to do so.
Of course, you would not rape because it would be wrong for you to do so.....
Come on, follow it one step further...
God CAN produce wildly imaginative species every day-
winged hippopotami, landsharks, and so on.
He does not-because that upsets the order He put into effect, and He's better than that
whether or not we perceive it.
That was either all very sloppy, or examples of someone who decided they knew the answers before
asking the questions. I'm willing to try to address any or all of those- and I would- for someone
who honestly wants to know. Sounds like if I bothered to try here, however, it would be a waste
of typing.
I see a God who, at ultimate levels, makes perfect sense and NEVER contradicts- He plays by His rules
and is faithful to them. I'm willing to admit the weak link in the chain is my stupidity and
not God's constancy.
I don't know if you realized this, but Steve L did it and Geisha responded to him.
If you want to "blame" someone for the expansion of the topic (it's still on "inerrancy" and "contradiction",
you might point that at Steve and not Geisha.
Me, I thought both of them were on-topic as far as this discussion has gone.
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cman
I like the parent child analogy WW.
As the children grow they are dealt with differently as well.
To which I suspect you agree.
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sirguessalot
well said...after all, it is still such an awesome finger.
also reminds me of one of the sayings about practicing presence..."practice does not work, but it does make us more accident prone."
contradictions abound...like wisdom in folly
yeah. not all children are the same stage.
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sirguessalot
reminds me of another scriptural "contradiction"
some places tell us to be be like children, or that we are eternal children,
and other places tell us to grow up, stop acting like children, and become wise.
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sirguessalot
a little off topic, but maybe not...
ive looked into this. further complicated is how there are about a dozen different ways "spiritual" is used in English. Some say it means "supernatural," some say it means "emotional," some say it means "existential", some say it means "causal," some say it means "whatever is your ultimate concern", so on and so forth. So I say it depends on how the word is being used in that moment. As long as we are at least interested in inquiring, the word can be useful. Otherwise, its as confusing as any other of those old words, like "God" "love" "heaven" "hell" etc... We may assume someone is using it the same way we do...but odds are against it.
"enlightenment" too, a diverse set of definitions in play. In addition to being the result of exploration, experimentation and such as waysider pointed out, i would have to add "enlightenment" also comes with disillusionment and loss of previous views. And is oftentimes accidental, unexpected, and comes with a certain element of confusion. Some speak of "enlightenment" as being some sort of ultimate once-in-a-lifetime event. Others consider the onset of rational thought (in people or the world) as enlightenment. Others say life is an ongoing series of big and little enlightenments, involving different depths and degrees of enlightenments. I can also appreciate the old saying that "death is enlightenment at gunpoint." Some sages of old, when referring to "the ground of awareness" that enlightenment seekers seek, ask "who is not already enlightened?"
So, perhaps not only does TWi contradict itself, scripture contradicts itself, God contradicts God, we contradict ourselves...even language contradicts itself....perfectly imperfect.
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geisha779
Spot on ....knowing that God can do anything He pleases is not the same thing as knowing what God pleases. Saying He can do anything and then assuming He will contradict Himself is really not the fear of the Lord. That is bringing God down to our level rather than seeking His. God is inviolate, in tact.....
Through scripture, God does express Himself to us. Yes, it is with imperfect language, but it is not impossible to glimpse at the complete holy and right state of being which is God. To us, finite beings, who are imperfect and flawed, completeness and perfection are almost impossible concepts. They can seem paradoxical. However, paradox is not always the same thing as contradiction, although people often use them interchangeably.
To explain Him in finite terms is just futile and we end up with nothing IMO. Well, we end up with a pretty shaky and uncertain God.
Rather, as you say, assuming we are missing something....and having that humbleness before complete perfection......our questions are usually answered. It is a relationship....and it grows. Knowing our place in the relationship really does help. We are not the definers...He is who He is....but, when trying to describe the indescribable...it can get pretty tricky. There are a great many temptations to neatly wrap it up.
I think you should, as you have offered, write out some of these things. Although you may not see it right away....it does reach, touch, and help people. It might be like Nicodemus coming in the night...but, people do let you know.
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PatAnswer
Geisha,
In an earlier post you quoted this verse:
“God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?”
And I suppose that the point of quoting this is to show that the Bible says that God does not lie, thus God cannot lie. Period.
But the verse goes on to say "or the son of man, the he should change his mind (repent). Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"
There are plenty of places where God changes His mind (repents), where He says something but does not do it (because He changes His mind). This seems contradictory if the above verse is universally applicable.
If the fact that He will not change His mind is applicable only here where Balaam is speaking to Balak then is that true also of the statement that He cannot (or shouldn't) lie?
I'm truly wanting to know. Please pardon me if this has already been covered or is too elementary.
Peace
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WordWolf
Most people here will try to answer any question, as long as they have time, it's asked
in a civil manner, and the person seems to really want to know.
(The rare exceptions generally relate to details on specific members of vpw's family
who do not post here and probably want to get on with their lives.)
Geisha can answer for herself. I'll take a shot at it, any way. (Hey, it's free.)
If you posit a God who knows the immediate future as much as the present (and the distant future),
then He knows the result of every conversation, and every deal.
That means that God knew Israel would be unfaithful to Him each and every time they were going to
be unfaithful, and, knowing that, He still treated them faithfully and kept up His end of every
agreement. He also acts as if He exists in linear time-when, technically, He does not-He knows
the results of all discussions and interactions before they happen. For the benefit of us
humans, he interacts down at our level of understanding so we can deal with Him.
(This reminded me once of the scientific construct "Flatland." But that's another thread.)
So, when He speaks to Adam and Eve, He knows full well what they have done-He's using a
"VOICE" when previously the 5 senses weren't specified-He knows their spirit's dead.
He asks each what they have done. Doesn't He know? It's blatantly obvious He knew- but He
asked them for THEIR understanding, not His own. He was going to hold them to account
for what they did- and made sure they understood it was their own fault for breaking the
rules they clearly understood.
When Abraham negotiates with God concerning Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham gets God to agree
to spare them if 50 righteous can be found there-then 40, then 30, then 20, then 10.
God knew all this, but permitted all this for Abraham's sake- and stopped before Abraham
asked Him to spare them for the sake of one, because God was not going to do that.
And so on. God has delivered warnings to people- "You will die shortly"- who repented and
returned to faithful paths- then God told them they would live longer. Did God change His
mind? No, He had to give them the first message knowing that would get them to the point
the last message would apply.
Simply put, He deals with us as if He exists limited as we are, for our sake. He is not,
but, in a sense, He limits Himself for our sakes.
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sirguessalot
thanks, Geisha
thought i would retrace my steps to find out where i first heard it.
probably here:
and then here:
in my search i also came across this blog entry which seemed to touch the topic of this thread: Abbot's blog "A Finger Pointing at the Moon"
there is a similar saying: "Don't mistake the map for the territory."
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WordWolf
BTW, PatAnswer,
(May I call you Pat? I'd say "Patrick" or "Patricia" if I knew if you were male or female,
but Pat works as a screen-name, either way....)
We discussed some aspects of this on a thread some time ago.
The thread was in Doctrinal, and called "What Does God Know?" I started it.
Here's the link:
(If that link ever breaks, you have the title, author and section, so you can find it
fairly easily.)
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excathedra
people should stop trying to know as much as god
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geisha779
Hi Pat....
WordWolf did a great job explaining this to you as we understand it....I say we because his explanation is how I too understand it. I would only reiterate that if you look at these questions from the vantage point of God's condescension(Which is a major plot line in scripture)...it not only begins to unfold how God doesn't really change His mind...., but more importantly....it begins to reveal a truly loving and compassionate God. He condescends, because He is good. God is good.
He doesn't have to do any of this...use language so that we can understand....and He certainly doesn't have to use anthropomorphic language(taking on human attributes) but He does. He could answer us with one lightening bolt for yes, two for no. From the beginning He has always used language..... Jesus is called the word.
Speaking directly to the account in Numbers of Baalam, if you take a look at it..... the statement, "God is not a man that He should lie"....it is an overall true statement, but it is also directed specifically to Baalam....a lying prophet. It is contrasting two natures...God vs Baalam.
There is also a difference between an edict and an absolute command. Note God's conversation with Abraham about Sodom and Gomorrah. ( I know WW covered this) But, God did allow Abraham some wiggle room. It wasn't as if old Ab was more moral than God in pleading for those lives.....and Abraham kept confessing each time he bargained..."we know you are merciful." He wasn't flattering God or manipulating Him, Abraham knew God. God was gracious and very generous with Abraham in allowing him to ask. That was for Abraham....not for God to change His mind. That is how God is...gentle, loving, kind and generous. He cares, He loves, and He gives amazing gifts to people.
Look at the account of Him wrestling with Jacob. When He asked Jacob what his name was...it wasn't because He didn't know. He was giving Jacob a chance to come clean. Jacob had lied about his name to his father. When God asked Jacob his name.... that was condescension and also amazing grace. God also gave Him a new name. That always moves me. He also left Jacob with a reminder...and that too was kindness.
Jesus healed the man who was born blind for God's glory.... at first glance....this can look pretty messed up. Jesus was undoing what He basically said God had done. Yet, He was doing it for God's glory. Huh? What about the poor guy who had to suffer blindness for God's glory....seems paradoxical to a loving God.
The cheap way out is to say God is a contradiction. However, we look at things from a different vantage point than God....linear....in the moment. The 30 years or so this man was blind is nothing compared to the glory of his eternity. God knows this. Our momentary suffering is nothing compared to the far more exceeding weight of eternal glory.
For God to say something once...it is enough....but, He reaches out again and again.
In TWI we were trained to spend all our time arguing over nuances and words....all time wasted IMO when we could have been coming to know Him and reveling in Him and His goodness. It is like a beggar being given a 7 course meal and only sitting there complaining about the spot on the silverware.
Sorry this is so long....if you got through.....I applaud!!
_________________________________________
Excathedra:
How about instead of saying we are thinking we know more than God.....maybe some of us are speaking to each other to come to know Him. I don't think anyone here really thinks they know more than God....but sometimes it is good to relate with the people touched by the same aberrant influences. Hope that makes sense.
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geisha779
Sir G,
Bruce Lee.... Enter the Dragon? Funny, that is funny because it is so poetic and the way you used it was so apropos. I don't always agree with you or with cman for that matter....but I do glean some really great wisdom. I should mention that I appreciate that and both of your contributions.
Bruce Lee? I think it sounded nicer coming from you. :)
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PatAnswer
Thanks WordWolf and Geisha. I'm reviewing the discussion that WordWolf pointed me to and am considering what both of you said. I think I'll need to print them out and sit down with a pot of tea and mull this over.
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Steve Lortz
Our eyeballs send signals to our brains about the locations of objects on a 2-dimensional plane. The signals contradict each other. They say that the same object is at different places on a 2-dimensional plane. Our brains do NOT resolve these apparent contradictions. They integrate the contradictory information to produce extra-dimensional images. I say the images are "extra-dimensional" because the brain takes two sets of contradictory information about spatial locations in two dimensions, and achieves perception of a third dimension.
Is a contradiction automatically a lie? No it is not! To "contradict" simply means to "speak against". Is either eyeball lying when their signals speak against each other? They are each telling the truth from a different viewpoint. Their contradictory signals are integrated into a higher-dimensional understanding.
Now we can very easily test the contradictions our eyeballs are sending to our brains. Extend you hand out to arm's length, with the thumb pointing upward. Close one eye and mark the location of your thumb against some object in the reasonable distance. Now, without moving your thumb or your head, close the eye you were looking through, and open the other. Notice how it seems that your thumb moves, even though you have not moved it.
OMG! Where is my thumb REALLY at!?! I decide that I cannot live with this contradiction, so I take to dressing like a pirate and wear a patch over one of my eyes. I have resolved the apparent contradiction, but in the process, I have also lost my depth perception, and become a very unreliable driver (except by using my memory to reconstruct the missing contradiction from other visual information, such as planar perspective or relative size perspective, or even aerial perspective in the case of objects so distant that the intervening air changes the perceived colors of the objects).
No detached observer can honestly deny that the four gospels contradict each other. I know my mind had been pickled so long in "the Bible contains no contradictions" that I didn't even notice how the gospels contradict each other. I didn't compare them. I just automatically assumed that everything in them could be harmonized if we put enough effort into the project. But when I DID start comparing them, without automatically assuming that they could be harmonized, I began to see contradictions that CANNOT be resolved.
When we prayerfully consider what we read in the gospels, as Geisha suggests, then the Holy Spirit can integrate their contradictory information to produce an extra-dimensional understanding of who Jesus was, and what He did, and by extension, who WE are, and what WE are to do. How many dimensions? If we accept written information as being linear, then each of the gospels accounts would present a 1-dimensional image. Since there are four gospels, then an extra dimensional understanding would be at least 5-dimensional. Now that's just speculation, but what might we call such an extra-dimensional understanding? Perhaps "spiritual enlightenment"? Perhaps "the living Word of God"?
The signals from our eyeballs contradict each other. They "speak against" each other, yet neither one is lying. Each signal is "true" from the viewpoint of the particular eyeball. Our brains integrate the contradictory information to transcend what our eyeballs are telling us. Just so, the gospels contradict each other, not because the writers were lying, but because the information each gospel presents about who Jesus is and what He did is "true" from the theological viewpoint of its particular writer. The understanding achieved when the Holy Spirit integrates the contradictions transcends the understanding we receive from any one of the gospels by itself.
BUT... if we "resolve the apparent contradictions" the way Wierwille taught in PFAL, it's like putting a pirate patch over one eye, only instead of losing our physical depth perception, we lose our comprehension of the integrity of the living Word of God! And Wierwille was right about that. The integrity of the Word IS always at stake!
People and organizations can sell the resolution of apparent contradictions for money. NOBODY can sell the integration of contradictions to produce transcendence. Only the Holy Spirit can do THAT!
So... those things being understood... I would judge the statement "There are no contradictions in the living Word of God" to be a true statement. I would judge the statement "There are no contradictions in the Bible" to be a false statement. I would judge the statement "God does not lie" to be a true statement. I would judge the statement "God cannot contradict Himself" to be a false statement.
The book of Job is about why bad things happen to good people. The LORD never gives an answer to that question in the book. I hazard to guess that proof-texts can be found at other places in the Old Testament for every one of the ideas Job's miserable comforters brought up, yet in Job 42:7 the LORD told Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath."
What did Job speak of the LORD? "I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee" (Job 42:2)
How did the miserable comforters kindle God's wrath? They were telling Job what God could and could not do based on their resolutions of the apparent contradictions in the Bible. Job's insight into the truth was that God can do whatever He wants to do, even if that entails suffering for the innocent. And suffering for the innocent was exactly what God's will entailed for Jesus Christ!
Here's an example of how there are contradictions in the gospels. This is one that the Holy Spirit has not yet integrated in my understanding. In Matthew, Mark and Luke, we become children of God at our resurrections, when we receive our inheritances as promised in Ezekiel 37. Yet in the gospel of John, and in Paul, we became children of God when we received the gift of the Holy Spirit that was promised in Joel 2:28-32, the earnest of our inheritances. I know what John wrote regarding this contradiction in his first letter, chapter 3,
"1 Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
"2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
"3 And every man that hat this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."
Has the Holy Spirit yet integrated these things in my understanding. No He has not. Am I going to resolve this apparent contradiction by taking one position and trying to rationalize away the other? No I am not. If I did do that, I would short circuit the Holy Spirit's permission to integrate them in my understanding. I would be flattering myself that I know as much as God. I would be flattering myself in my own eyes so much that I wouldn't recognize my own errors, or even care.
"The Bible contains no contradictions" IS one of the biggest lies perpetrated by TWI and some of its offshoots, and it IS one of the root lies that enabled all of the other depradations that those organizations have committed.
Love,
Steve
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