Is there a splinter group that is web based? Runs everything on the internet even their fellowships (or whatever they call them in his group). I had a convo with a guy who was apart of one who said they run it on the internet.
His Believers' Bible Camp was ordaining people as if ordinations were boxes of Crackerjack for a while, until some people he ordained went off and made fools of themselves AND of Believers' Bible Camp. Then, all of a sudden "the Holy Spirit" got real picky about who He let Sides ordain, and Believers' Bible Camp changed its name to Liberating Ministries for Christ International (WHY! OH, WHY! Does every podunk spin-off of TWI call itself INTERNATIONAL!?! It's like Wierwille calling himself DOCTOR!)
I'm not sure, but using the word 'international' in your corporate name is probably a legal strategy, having to do with your tax status and/or what you as a business can claim as expenses.
Is there a splinter group that is web based? Runs everything on the internet even their fellowships (or whatever they call them in his group). I had a convo with a guy who was apart of one who said they run it on the internet.
JAL has most of his organization using the interweb to connect. I am sure there are some loose knit fellowships, probably around Indianapolis where JAL resides. But TLTF does web fellowships, and a lot of other things online. Not sure if this it the group that was mentioned in the conversation you had.
JAL has most of his organization using the interweb to connect. I am sure there are some loose knit fellowships, probably around Indianapolis where JAL resides. But TLTF does web fellowships, and a lot of other things online. Not sure if this it the group that was mentioned in the conversation you had.
That may be it... In the right city anyway....
I find it comical I clicked on the link and the first thing that comes up is the Anti- Santa Christmas Jargon same stuff we are discussing on another thread.
Some things change and some things just never change....
Note the contrast between Calvary Chapel and TWI-- TWI flamed out in 15 years, because VPW was a false teacher who sucked life out of people, while Calvary Chapel continues to go strong.
Yes that is an interesting comparison. You can read more about them at http://calvarychapel.com/. Their tag line "simply teaching the Bible simply" explains a lot of the origin. They promote simply reading and obeying scriptures - their teachings (at least from the few services I've attended of theirs) usually are in series covering whole sectors of the Bible and have a lot more reading and a lot less commentary than many other approaches. You can look at their numbers in the "Find a Church" section of the website - there are churches in all 50 states and internationally. Oh, and the churches are not like TWI "work" in that it's 2 families or 8 people in one house that's work in a state - they are full churches with buildings rented or owned with a presence in the community.
They are a mainstream Christianity alternative, much as other denominations are. They are growing. TWI is dying.
JAL has most of his organization using the interweb to connect. I am sure there are some loose knit fellowships, probably around Indianapolis where JAL resides. But TLTF does web fellowships, and a lot of other things online. Not sure if this it the group that was mentioned in the conversation you had.
Well, once you've screwed up 2 splinter groups, selling over the internet where you don't have to actually deal with people is probably JAL's safest bet.
without going into detail-when a family member who was giving everything to Calvary church, and considered them her 'family' was suddenly in the hospital with meningitis, the only response from the church was a call demanding to know who she may have infected. No prayer, no visits, no concern, and a lot of pompous condescension-I thought I was back in TWI
No prayer, no visits, no concern, and a lot of pompous condescension-I thought I was back in TWI
Yep, very cold. I experienced a very cold indifference (in the kinder, gentler TWI) when my son was born with health complications. Only a couple people offered to help, and the "ministers" we reached out to told us that he would be delivered when we (his parents) were ready to receive. Meanwhile, we had spent months in ministry publications, studies, etc., and I don't know how much more ready we could have been. But since what they teach does not work, they have no choice but to blame it on the victims. The logic is something like God is perfect, his Word is perfect, mankind is not perfect but needs to rise up and claim what God has already given.
I'm inclined to think that EVERY ministry should sell off its assets and donate the proceeds to the poor when its founder dies. The second generation is NEVER the same as the original, and the post-founder ministry just settles into an ossified relic... dead.
I just went and browsed around at John Lynn's website. In the Statement of Beliefs, it reads in part, "It is possible to understand each verse by applying logic and the sound linguistic principles of biblical interpretation in conjunction with the spirit of God in us."
Notice that the first item listed is "logic." This is not the logic of a middle-school class in Logic; propositions, syllogisms, etc. It is a strange system of rationalization, originally birthed by Wierwille in PFAL, but engorged on steroids by CES. As far as "sound linguistic principles of biblical interpretation", PFAL/CES/TLTF "logic" trumps everything else, even what's clearly written in black and white.
When it was pointed out to the leaders of CES that Wierwille's interpretation of Romans 8:9-11 contradicted what Paul actually wrote, those leaders came out with a teaching that the book of Romans couldn't be trusted because it was tainted with Paul's "Jewish mindset". God couldn't reveal the fulness of the Administration of the Sacred Secret to Paul until Paul's Jewish mindset was "broken" by his Momentus... er... Jerusalem experience.
Also notice that the purpose of Lynn's hermeneutics is not to comprehend the whole message of the gospel, but to understand "each verse", seemingly in isolation.
TWI hermeneutics are like a Chinese finger-trap. The more you struggle to make its "logic" work, the more tightly ensnared you become in error.
I just went and browsed around at John Lynn's website. In the Statement of Beliefs, it reads in part, "It is possible to understand each verse by applying logic and the sound linguistic principles of biblical interpretation in conjunction with the spirit of God in us."
Naten00 wrote "I find it comical I clicked on the link and the first thing that comes up is the Anti- Santa Christmas Jargon same stuff we are discussing on another thread."
What I thought was weird was the claim that Santa Claus is a caricature of God - I don't remember hearing that one before, though maybe I just didn't pick up the implications of the different grumblings I heard. Doesn't he know about Saint Nicholas? (Trying to add link to thread: ). Would he ever think of looking something up? I think that he must have watched Miracle on somethingth Street too much, where the Santa character is called Kris Kringle (a mangling of Christkindl, the Christ child) and then got confused. Or am I confused?
just need to say that my experience with Calvary church (I'm assuming it's the same john j is speaking about ), was the most negative, unloving, , soul sapping time, ever, short of TWI. I don't care to write an essay right now, but it was almost as destructive as most of my way time.
There are lots of churches and groups that have "calvary" as part of their name.
Calvary Chapels normally go by the title "Calvary Chapel (of City Name)" I've known people in several different "Calvary Chapels" and all reported positive experiences, so I suspect the Calvary you went to was something else.
Is there a splinter group that is web based? Runs everything on the internet even their fellowships (or whatever they call them in his group). I had a convo with a guy who was apart of one who said they run it on the internet.
Have you ever found yourself consumed with the fear you may be starting to forget all the cool Way jargon?
No sweat.
Now you can go to THIS FB page and refresh your memory.
I wouldn't be so sure, john j. This is the same Calvary that is popping up everywhere. Everything I've read and know about this group is exactly like the Calvary you're referring to. I realize there are a lot of Calvary's this and that, but I'm almost certain that this is the same group you're referring to.
But I am going to check it out-first by establihing if it's 'Chapel'. I do want to be fair.
Have you ever found yourself consumed with the fear you may be starting to forget all the cool Way jargon?
No sweat.
Now you can go to THIS FB page and refresh your memory.
I checked the FB link. Today, so much of these kinds of postings become so tedious to read and re-read anymore. There seems to be no natural, ordinary conversation; rather just 'religious' pious statements to make people sound spiritually connected. "It's not what you say...it is what you do."
iI'm sorry, johnj, but I checked it out, and this is the same Calvary Chapel you're defending. I don't know what they're like elsewhere, but I wouldn't give you 2 cents for this particular group. Before the hospital disaster happened, I attended a few services, in the name of family harmony. I found it very similar to TWI in tone, and leadership arrogance. Of course doctrinally they were nothing like the way.
Have you ever found yourself consumed with the fear you may be starting to forget all the cool Way jargon?
No sweat.
Now you can go to THIS FB page and refresh your memory.
Thanks Waysider.... Is this from a splinter group??? I have a splinter group buddy a friend of mine apart of it.
I see they start off with mantra of brain washing "Scrub Scrub" with the phrase "The Word of God is the WILL of God" as if they are they sole directors.
Brain washing isn't hard just redefine terminology in way that makes everything come out as if THE LEADER is ALWAYS right.
It is so easy... Splinter sell groups can pop up anywhere!
I see they favor a Calvinistic theology.... I wonder if they give credit to where credit is due (To calvin and those who formed his theology forming the TULIP model)...
Not to get off topic on that but why so much arrogance on the FB page.... Same stuff when talking from someone at TWI....
At least my hyper Calvin friends can admit to the complications of their theology. Don't really see humility that should follow a Christian on that FB page.
(Not getting into the Calvin vs Amin debate trying to point out the similarities between the group and TWI).
Sooooo tempted to start trouble on that page.... Then again would Christ approve of that?
Not to get off topic on that but why so much arrogance on the FB page.... Same stuff when talking from someone at TWI....
(snip)
Arrogance was the DNA of The Way Tree. Arrogance was the DNA that gave birth to The Way Tree, it was the DNA The Way Tree used to preserve itself, it was the DNA The Way Tree used to propagate itself, and arrogance is the DNA that runs through ALL the The Way Tree off-shoots. There was no fear of God in The Way Tree's DNA to prune the pride and arrogance.
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mstar1
I always have to laugh when these groups try to tell me that they are "nothing like" TWI, or have thrown off the bad and kept the good. These splinters and keeping the form of TWI is specifically for
waysider
Even when people see it, will they believe it? Think of all the people who still can't accept the truth about The Way.
OldSkool
Sounds wonderfully tremendously electrifying! Gawd Bless you.
Naten00
Is there a splinter group that is web based? Runs everything on the internet even their fellowships (or whatever they call them in his group). I had a convo with a guy who was apart of one who said they run it on the internet.
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OperaBuff
I'm not sure, but using the word 'international' in your corporate name is probably a legal strategy, having to do with your tax status and/or what you as a business can claim as expenses.
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OldSkool
Voila!
http://www.thelivingtruthfellowship.org/tltf/Home.html
JAL has most of his organization using the interweb to connect. I am sure there are some loose knit fellowships, probably around Indianapolis where JAL resides. But TLTF does web fellowships, and a lot of other things online. Not sure if this it the group that was mentioned in the conversation you had.
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Naten00
That may be it... In the right city anyway....
I find it comical I clicked on the link and the first thing that comes up is the Anti- Santa Christmas Jargon same stuff we are discussing on another thread.
Some things change and some things just never change....
Thanks for the help I will be looking into it!
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chockfull
Yes that is an interesting comparison. You can read more about them at http://calvarychapel.com/. Their tag line "simply teaching the Bible simply" explains a lot of the origin. They promote simply reading and obeying scriptures - their teachings (at least from the few services I've attended of theirs) usually are in series covering whole sectors of the Bible and have a lot more reading and a lot less commentary than many other approaches. You can look at their numbers in the "Find a Church" section of the website - there are churches in all 50 states and internationally. Oh, and the churches are not like TWI "work" in that it's 2 families or 8 people in one house that's work in a state - they are full churches with buildings rented or owned with a presence in the community.
They are a mainstream Christianity alternative, much as other denominations are. They are growing. TWI is dying.
Well, once you've screwed up 2 splinter groups, selling over the internet where you don't have to actually deal with people is probably JAL's safest bet.
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hiway29
without going into detail-when a family member who was giving everything to Calvary church, and considered them her 'family' was suddenly in the hospital with meningitis, the only response from the church was a call demanding to know who she may have infected. No prayer, no visits, no concern, and a lot of pompous condescension-I thought I was back in TWI
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OldSkool
Yep, very cold. I experienced a very cold indifference (in the kinder, gentler TWI) when my son was born with health complications. Only a couple people offered to help, and the "ministers" we reached out to told us that he would be delivered when we (his parents) were ready to receive. Meanwhile, we had spent months in ministry publications, studies, etc., and I don't know how much more ready we could have been. But since what they teach does not work, they have no choice but to blame it on the victims. The logic is something like God is perfect, his Word is perfect, mankind is not perfect but needs to rise up and claim what God has already given.
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Steve Lortz
I'm inclined to think that EVERY ministry should sell off its assets and donate the proceeds to the poor when its founder dies. The second generation is NEVER the same as the original, and the post-founder ministry just settles into an ossified relic... dead.
I just went and browsed around at John Lynn's website. In the Statement of Beliefs, it reads in part, "It is possible to understand each verse by applying logic and the sound linguistic principles of biblical interpretation in conjunction with the spirit of God in us."
Notice that the first item listed is "logic." This is not the logic of a middle-school class in Logic; propositions, syllogisms, etc. It is a strange system of rationalization, originally birthed by Wierwille in PFAL, but engorged on steroids by CES. As far as "sound linguistic principles of biblical interpretation", PFAL/CES/TLTF "logic" trumps everything else, even what's clearly written in black and white.
When it was pointed out to the leaders of CES that Wierwille's interpretation of Romans 8:9-11 contradicted what Paul actually wrote, those leaders came out with a teaching that the book of Romans couldn't be trusted because it was tainted with Paul's "Jewish mindset". God couldn't reveal the fulness of the Administration of the Sacred Secret to Paul until Paul's Jewish mindset was "broken" by his Momentus... er... Jerusalem experience.
Also notice that the purpose of Lynn's hermeneutics is not to comprehend the whole message of the gospel, but to understand "each verse", seemingly in isolation.
TWI hermeneutics are like a Chinese finger-trap. The more you struggle to make its "logic" work, the more tightly ensnared you become in error.
Love,
Steve
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cara
Naten00 wrote "I find it comical I clicked on the link and the first thing that comes up is the Anti- Santa Christmas Jargon same stuff we are discussing on another thread."
What I thought was weird was the claim that Santa Claus is a caricature of God - I don't remember hearing that one before, though maybe I just didn't pick up the implications of the different grumblings I heard. Doesn't he know about Saint Nicholas? (Trying to add link to thread: ). Would he ever think of looking something up? I think that he must have watched Miracle on somethingth Street too much, where the Santa character is called Kris Kringle (a mangling of Christkindl, the Christ child) and then got confused. Or am I confused?
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johnj
There are lots of churches and groups that have "calvary" as part of their name.
Calvary Chapels normally go by the title "Calvary Chapel (of City Name)" I've known people in several different "Calvary Chapels" and all reported positive experiences, so I suspect the Calvary you went to was something else.
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waysider
Have you ever found yourself consumed with the fear you may be starting to forget all the cool Way jargon?
No sweat.
Now you can go to THIS FB page and refresh your memory.
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hiway29
I wouldn't be so sure, john j. This is the same Calvary that is popping up everywhere. Everything I've read and know about this group is exactly like the Calvary you're referring to. I realize there are a lot of Calvary's this and that, but I'm almost certain that this is the same group you're referring to.
But I am going to check it out-first by establihing if it's 'Chapel'. I do want to be fair.
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Rejoice
I checked the FB link. Today, so much of these kinds of postings become so tedious to read and re-read anymore. There seems to be no natural, ordinary conversation; rather just 'religious' pious statements to make people sound spiritually connected. "It's not what you say...it is what you do."
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OldSkool
Sounds wonderfully tremendously electrifying! Gawd Bless you.
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hiway29
iI'm sorry, johnj, but I checked it out, and this is the same Calvary Chapel you're defending. I don't know what they're like elsewhere, but I wouldn't give you 2 cents for this particular group. Before the hospital disaster happened, I attended a few services, in the name of family harmony. I found it very similar to TWI in tone, and leadership arrogance. Of course doctrinally they were nothing like the way.
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Naten00
Thanks Waysider.... Is this from a splinter group??? I have a splinter group buddy a friend of mine apart of it.
I see they start off with mantra of brain washing "Scrub Scrub" with the phrase "The Word of God is the WILL of God" as if they are they sole directors.
Brain washing isn't hard just redefine terminology in way that makes everything come out as if THE LEADER is ALWAYS right.
It is so easy... Splinter sell groups can pop up anywhere!
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OldSkool
I read a little of the facebook page and felt my mind go numb.
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Naten00
I see they favor a Calvinistic theology.... I wonder if they give credit to where credit is due (To calvin and those who formed his theology forming the TULIP model)...
Not to get off topic on that but why so much arrogance on the FB page.... Same stuff when talking from someone at TWI....
At least my hyper Calvin friends can admit to the complications of their theology. Don't really see humility that should follow a Christian on that FB page.
(Not getting into the Calvin vs Amin debate trying to point out the similarities between the group and TWI).
Sooooo tempted to start trouble on that page.... Then again would Christ approve of that?
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Steve Lortz
Arrogance was the DNA of The Way Tree. Arrogance was the DNA that gave birth to The Way Tree, it was the DNA The Way Tree used to preserve itself, it was the DNA The Way Tree used to propagate itself, and arrogance is the DNA that runs through ALL the The Way Tree off-shoots. There was no fear of God in The Way Tree's DNA to prune the pride and arrogance.
Love,
Steve
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