Well, using my dictionary, it's a middle english word that means "A woman who procures prostitutes." Craig's victims WERE NOT prostitutes so I would think the emphasis in the context of the legal filings is the feminine of procurer...a.k.a "pimp." Procure also has the connotation of bringing something about by unscrupulous means.
Wow. So in other words this describes actions that are similar to the operation of the famous madam Heidi Fliess. More about Heidi on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidi_Fliess.
This type of action was VERY common during the top leadership during VPW's day, and of course under Craig's rule too. This is the type of activity that Rosalie and Donna were complicit in as told by those that were there. They would "procure" willing partners in adultery for visiting clergymen in their formative years. It was very well known to the Wierwille children all growing up that men would cheat on their wives. This was a doctrine taught and practiced in TWI's top leadership, and the "procuresses" would support it. As some supporting material to this, listen to Ralph Dubovsky's GS Radio sharing.
As an interesting side note, I saw Heidi Fliess on "Celebrity Rehab with Dr. Drew". From the wikipedia article, "Fleiss eventually moved to Pahrump, Nevada, where she came to live in solitude in Death Valley while caring for 25 parrots. Dr. Drew Pinsky, who treated Fleiss for substance abuse, performed brain scans on her that showed significant frontal lobe dysfunction, which Pinsky surmised was behind her inability to empathize with people, and her affinity for doing so with birds. She had developed a particular closeness to a macaw called Dalton who died tragically."
I wonder, if you performed a brain scan on Rosalie if you would find similar significant frontal lobe dysfunction also responsible for her inability to empathize with people. Hmmm. Things we will never know.
As an interesting side note, I saw Heidi Fliess on "Celebrity Rehab with Dr. Drew". From the wikipedia article, "Fleiss eventually moved to Pahrump, Nevada, where she came to live in solitude in Death Valley while caring for 25 parrots. Dr. Drew Pinsky, who treated Fleiss for substance abuse, performed brain scans on her that showed significant frontal lobe dysfunction, which Pinsky surmised was behind her inability to empathize with people, and her affinity for doing so with birds. She had developed a particular closeness to a macaw called Dalton who died tragically."
I wonder, if you performed a brain scan on Rosalie if you would find similar significant frontal lobe dysfunction also responsible for her inability to empathize with people. Hmmm. Things we will never know.
Hard to know if this was always there, or the result of drug abuse [more likely in her case]. However, this frontal lobe dysfunction seems to identify an insane brain even though the outward appearance doesn't reveal this. I agree, a brain scan on any of them (Rosie, LCM, VPW etc) would probably bring this out in the open.
It was very well known to the Wierwille children all growing up that men would cheat on their wives.
This is a shocking statement, although I don't doubt it for a variety of reasons. But I am startled into wanting to know whether there is any documentation on it.
I agree with Pen on this. I don't believe this is correct. I'd like to see some documentation for it.
Also - I don't think Rosie "procured", neither did Donna. Let's get real! Can you imagine Donna walking up to some girl and saying, Hey, you're a cure young thing....come over here and sleep with my husband because he's the king and all the women belong to him. Somehow, I cannot see Donna doing that. Although Rosie knew well what was going on, I don't believe she ever personally involved herself. I wouldn't put it past her to get someone to do it....but that's a far cry from doing the deed herself.
Someplace on the official pages in the front of this forum, there are documents which mention a woman by name who used to do the procurement. She wasn't the only one, but she was one of the main ones.
This is a shocking statement, although I don't doubt it for a variety of reasons. But I am startled into wanting to know whether there is any documentation on it.
Also - I don't think Rosie "procured", neither did Donna. Let's get real! Can you imagine Donna walking up to some girl and saying, Hey, you're a cure young thing....come over here and sleep with my husband because he's the king and all the women belong to him. Somehow, I cannot see Donna doing that. Although Rosie knew well what was going on, I don't believe she ever personally involved herself. I wouldn't put it past her to get someone to do it....but that's a far cry from doing the deed herself.
I don't know if she did the procuring, but I had a friend who was one of LCM's women. When asked why she thought it was ok to have sex with him, her answer was "I thought it was ok because Donna was such a good friend."
Take that for what it's worth. I never got an explanation as to what she meant by "being a good friend" to Donna, but it would appear from this statement that Donna knew and encouraged women to sleep with her husband.
Can you imagine Donna walking up to some girl and saying, Hey, you're a cute young thing....come over here and sleep with my husband because he's the king and all the women belong to him
actually, yes, I can imagine this scenario for various reasons.
kind of like..
I'm what. Middle aged.. I've produce three brood for you..
you can *bother* somebody else, as long as it the relationship is "disposable".. or "not really serious.."
sorry, I can just see it..
Honestly.. excuse what I think.
Procuress? I think it is one who finds another target, so that one is not bothered.. for sexual favors, innuendo, etc..
maybe rosie was tired of "putting out"..
just a thought.
find somebody else willing to share the "burden" or something..
If it makes any difference here..
Didn't Yoko do the same thing for (or with) her husband?
I've read too many autobiographies..
Maybe that is it.. Procuress = tired of putting out..
sowy. It's probably true..
I mean.. when ole "doc" came "calling"..
didn't she have staff report that she wasn't "in" or something?
I won't use my vulgar words to give her then or now description..
I agree with Pen on this. I don't believe this is correct. I'd like to see some documentation for it.
see my other quote. btw, Pen didn't say she didn't believe this was correct, so technically you're not agreeing with her. Of course you're free to not believe OldSkool and my accounts of verbal confirmation from grandchildren. I'm sure most current active TWI members would not believe that even though it's true.
Also - I don't think Rosie "procured", neither did Donna. Let's get real! Can you imagine Donna walking up to some girl and saying, Hey, you're a cure young thing....come over here and sleep with my husband because he's the king and all the women belong to him. Somehow, I cannot see Donna doing that. Although Rosie knew well what was going on, I don't believe she ever personally involved herself. I wouldn't put it past her to get someone to do it....but that's a far cry from doing the deed herself.
See Ralph Dubofsky's GreaseSpot Radio sharings. This practice was not Donna or Rosalie "procuring" for Craig, but them providing introductions for visiting clergymen to women who were known to want to do this kind of thing. This is a little different from the women who were sleeping with VP and Craig who brought other women around, but it still falls under the overall description of what was going on.
Someplace on the official pages in the front of this forum, there are documents which mention a woman by name who used to do the procurement. She wasn't the only one, but she was one of the main ones.
Throughout most of the sharings by victims, including in Kristin's book Losing the Way, there were many of the girls sleeping with these men who would do this. It was more than one woman. The one we were speaking of earlier whose husband committed suicide was accused in the Allen lawsuit of being one of them.
The point of all of this is that these women currently running TWI knew about and were complicit in this practice, as it was a practice known within the "good ole boys club" leadership and the "yak twigs" attended by the Trustees during the fog years. This is one more reason that the lawsuits settled so quickly - not only to try and salvage reputation, but also to end any investigations of these types of threads. They knew about it and eventually conspired to take advantage of it to achieve the power that they now have. Rosalie is very adept at deflecting these types of questions. She even went on the offensive with a false confrontation to the Corps about them knowing about it but not speaking up, while all along she herself was the one doing what she was confronting everyone of - she was the one who knew of the practice and did nothing about it, not the general Corps populace. I knew absolutely nothing about any of that until later.
The point of all of this is that these women currently running TWI knew about and were complicit in this practice, as it was a practice known within the "good ole boys club" leadership and the "yak twigs" attended by the Trustees during the fog years. This is one more reason that the lawsuits settled so quickly - not only to try and salvage reputation, but also to end any investigations of these types of threads. They knew about it and eventually conspired to take advantage of it to achieve the power that they now have. Rosalie is very adept at deflecting these types of questions. She even went on the offensive with a false confrontation to the Corps about them knowing about it but not speaking up, while all along she herself was the one doing what she was confronting everyone of - she was the one who knew of the practice and did nothing about it, not the general Corps populace. I knew absolutely nothing about any of that until later.
see my other quote. btw, Pen didn't say she didn't believe this was correct, so technically you're not agreeing with her. Of course you're free to not believe OldSkool and my accounts of verbal confirmation from grandchildren. I'm sure most current active TWI members would not believe that even though it's true.
I will bet you a dollar to a dime, given your location in the country and mine, the confirmations were from two of his grandchildren and not just the same one.
I will bet you a dollar to a dime, given your location in the country and mine, the confirmations were from two of his grandchildren and not just the same one.
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OldSkool
Well, using my dictionary, it's a middle english word that means "A woman who procures prostitutes." Craig's victims WERE NOT prostitutes so I would think the emphasis in the context of the legal filings is the feminine of procurer...a.k.a "pimp." Procure also has the connotation of bringing something about by unscrupulous means.
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chockfull
Wow. So in other words this describes actions that are similar to the operation of the famous madam Heidi Fliess. More about Heidi on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidi_Fliess.
This type of action was VERY common during the top leadership during VPW's day, and of course under Craig's rule too. This is the type of activity that Rosalie and Donna were complicit in as told by those that were there. They would "procure" willing partners in adultery for visiting clergymen in their formative years. It was very well known to the Wierwille children all growing up that men would cheat on their wives. This was a doctrine taught and practiced in TWI's top leadership, and the "procuresses" would support it. As some supporting material to this, listen to Ralph Dubovsky's GS Radio sharing.
As an interesting side note, I saw Heidi Fliess on "Celebrity Rehab with Dr. Drew". From the wikipedia article, "Fleiss eventually moved to Pahrump, Nevada, where she came to live in solitude in Death Valley while caring for 25 parrots. Dr. Drew Pinsky, who treated Fleiss for substance abuse, performed brain scans on her that showed significant frontal lobe dysfunction, which Pinsky surmised was behind her inability to empathize with people, and her affinity for doing so with birds. She had developed a particular closeness to a macaw called Dalton who died tragically."
I wonder, if you performed a brain scan on Rosalie if you would find similar significant frontal lobe dysfunction also responsible for her inability to empathize with people. Hmmm. Things we will never know.
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Rejoice
Hard to know if this was always there, or the result of drug abuse [more likely in her case]. However, this frontal lobe dysfunction seems to identify an insane brain even though the outward appearance doesn't reveal this. I agree, a brain scan on any of them (Rosie, LCM, VPW etc) would probably bring this out in the open.
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penworks
This is a shocking statement, although I don't doubt it for a variety of reasons. But I am startled into wanting to know whether there is any documentation on it.
Pen
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krys
I agree with Pen on this. I don't believe this is correct. I'd like to see some documentation for it.
Also - I don't think Rosie "procured", neither did Donna. Let's get real! Can you imagine Donna walking up to some girl and saying, Hey, you're a cure young thing....come over here and sleep with my husband because he's the king and all the women belong to him. Somehow, I cannot see Donna doing that. Although Rosie knew well what was going on, I don't believe she ever personally involved herself. I wouldn't put it past her to get someone to do it....but that's a far cry from doing the deed herself.
Someplace on the official pages in the front of this forum, there are documents which mention a woman by name who used to do the procurement. She wasn't the only one, but she was one of the main ones.
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OldSkool
His granddaughter confirmed it for me.
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JavaJane
I don't know if she did the procuring, but I had a friend who was one of LCM's women. When asked why she thought it was ok to have sex with him, her answer was "I thought it was ok because Donna was such a good friend."
Take that for what it's worth. I never got an explanation as to what she meant by "being a good friend" to Donna, but it would appear from this statement that Donna knew and encouraged women to sleep with her husband.
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waysider
What if you found out the church you attend had secretly been used as a brothel?
(That's a question to be pondered by innies who may be lurking.)
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Ham
actually, yes, I can imagine this scenario for various reasons.
kind of like..
I'm what. Middle aged.. I've produce three brood for you..
you can *bother* somebody else, as long as it the relationship is "disposable".. or "not really serious.."
sorry, I can just see it..
Honestly.. excuse what I think.
Procuress? I think it is one who finds another target, so that one is not bothered.. for sexual favors, innuendo, etc..
maybe rosie was tired of "putting out"..
just a thought.
find somebody else willing to share the "burden" or something..
If it makes any difference here..
Didn't Yoko do the same thing for (or with) her husband?
I've read too many autobiographies..
Maybe that is it.. Procuress = tired of putting out..
sowy. It's probably true..
I mean.. when ole "doc" came "calling"..
didn't she have staff report that she wasn't "in" or something?
I won't use my vulgar words to give her then or now description..
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Ham
It starts with an "S", the a "k" then an "a", then and "n"..
I won't continue. But what does that spell?
sowy. I think she has defined herself.. skank at the mog's table..
sowy. skank is the most unprofane word I could come up with, in the circumstances..
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Ham
Now she pretends to be a mogstress or something like that..
christ. "I spread my legs (a few times for) da mog... that makes me.. what, SPECIAL?"...
sowy. It was any port in the storm, friend..
don't take that as a compliment. By no means..
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Ham
*Mr* linder or misbegotten replacement, please pass this observation, or insult, to the appropriate personage, or place.
Thank you.
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chockfull
This is what I have as well as far as documentation. Verbal confirmation from VP's grandchildren that is what they were taught growing up.
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chockfull
see my other quote. btw, Pen didn't say she didn't believe this was correct, so technically you're not agreeing with her. Of course you're free to not believe OldSkool and my accounts of verbal confirmation from grandchildren. I'm sure most current active TWI members would not believe that even though it's true.
See Ralph Dubofsky's GreaseSpot Radio sharings. This practice was not Donna or Rosalie "procuring" for Craig, but them providing introductions for visiting clergymen to women who were known to want to do this kind of thing. This is a little different from the women who were sleeping with VP and Craig who brought other women around, but it still falls under the overall description of what was going on.
Throughout most of the sharings by victims, including in Kristin's book Losing the Way, there were many of the girls sleeping with these men who would do this. It was more than one woman. The one we were speaking of earlier whose husband committed suicide was accused in the Allen lawsuit of being one of them.
The point of all of this is that these women currently running TWI knew about and were complicit in this practice, as it was a practice known within the "good ole boys club" leadership and the "yak twigs" attended by the Trustees during the fog years. This is one more reason that the lawsuits settled so quickly - not only to try and salvage reputation, but also to end any investigations of these types of threads. They knew about it and eventually conspired to take advantage of it to achieve the power that they now have. Rosalie is very adept at deflecting these types of questions. She even went on the offensive with a false confrontation to the Corps about them knowing about it but not speaking up, while all along she herself was the one doing what she was confronting everyone of - she was the one who knew of the practice and did nothing about it, not the general Corps populace. I knew absolutely nothing about any of that until later.
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krys
I agree with this totally
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OldSkool
I will bet you a dollar to a dime, given your location in the country and mine, the confirmations were from two of his grandchildren and not just the same one.
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chockfull
I would guarantee it.
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