Dig that. My cause since leaving the way int. has been to get my self deprogrammed and my family taken care of.
My time in "deprogramming" from TWI was more extended than some, because I continued to hang out with ex-wafers who were trying to "save the baby" while throwing out the bath water.
I didn't really start a thorough deprogram until I saw the same abusive patterns being repeated by leaders. Then I started to question whether there WAS any baby.
The first of Wierwille's lies I investigated was his teaching about what STFI/TLTF calls "the Administration of the Sacred Secret."
The Bible never uses the word "oikonomia" (translated "dispensation" or "administration") to mean "a period of time." Wierwille's definition of the Church as a wholely new thing fails. Wierwille's definition of salvation fails. Wierwille's understanding of the Lordship of Jesus Christ fails.
There is much to be deprogrammed of, in every way.
Stringing chairs, etc., was an exercise in programming our minds to be mindlessly obedient, to be very aware of peculiar accuracy in tiny things, while being completely oblivious to ENORMOUS error.
and johnyouare, what is your point exactly? asked with respect....
I think his point was to try to compare what we did in a "non-profit" cult to something being done in an upscale, "for profit" establishment. You know, like when people try to compare V.PeePee to David or Paul or somebody else who resembled him in no way that was relevant other than sharing the same gender. Or when they try to compare our life in the TWI commune to something that happened 2,000 freakin' years ago, in a totally different culture, under totally different circumstances....but I could be wrong...What sayest thou, John?
quote: and johnyouare, what is your point exactly? asked with respect....
I had 2 points...
1) deprogramming is natural, based on our habit patterns. Anything done by one's self to help the process along will probably be counter productive (the hurrier I go the behinder I get), and the idea of kidnapping someone, tieing them up with duct tape, and force feeding them against their chosen belief system is.....rape?
2) you don't have to be in a cult to be anal about details, and being anal about details isn't always a bad thing. I was kind of agreeing with WG that the idea that stringing chairs and being mathematically meticulous about table utensils makes one more spiritual is a waste of time. I think Solomon said it best...(Eccl. 12:12) - And further, by these (words of the wise from the previous verse), my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. (v.13) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. The reason much study is a weariness of the flesh is because that "study" always leads to activities, like stringing chairs, which is weariness of the flesh. The Pharisees laid grievous burdens on people and tithed their anise and cumin when they should have just treated those people better. I don't know just how "grievous" stringing chairs is, but you get the idea.
quote: Or when they try to compare our life in the TWI commune to something that happened 2,000 freakin' years ago, in a totally different culture, under totally different circumstances..
I think we're supposed to compare ourselves to Christ and his followers and to God's people. So you don't even believe there is a spiritual side of life anymore?
1) deprogramming is natural, based on our habit patterns. Anything done by one's self to help the process along will probably be counter productive (the hurrier I go the behinder I get), and the idea of kidnapping someone, tieing them up with duct tape, and force feeding them against their chosen belief system is.....rape?
john......your posts rarily add much to the conversation and this is another case in point.
Deprogramming, exit counseling, interventions, thought reform......all of these topics can be studied in length if one so chooses. Your little quip, "deprogramming is natural, based on our habit patterns" is a dismal attempt of interjecting your perspective of something that you, seemingly, know very little about.
Wierwille set in motion a system of repetition that "programmed" individuals from their former lives. The abandonment of family, mixed with repetition and isolation, no questioning the mog, the demands for strict loyalty, etc.....WAS a programming of thought reform. Twi adheres to a top-down command structure that runs at cross-purposes with the Father/son relationship in christianity.....and the wisdom of Proverbs. Obedience is the mortar of twi's building.......not the love of God.
Anyone who has studied thought reform or deprogramming knows that its FAR MORE than just trying to "force someone against their chosen belief system." At stages, deprogrammers introduce concepts of questioning authority to jumpstart the critical thinking process.....or bring in family members to initiate a re-bonding of family process. Etc. Etc.
All of this stringing chairs, condiments, silverware placement, floral arrangements, meticulous flower beds, etc. is the petting loyalty to servitude obedience that strokes twi-idolatry. This busy-work detracts and negates the pressing work of healing the sick, mending the brokenhearted, relieving the heavy burdens, etc. that defines true christian work. In the end, I believe that those who continue to embrace the "programming of twi"......the day will come, when the Lord will say "Depart from me. I never knew you."
Getting rid of the way international's fingerprint on my life has not been a "natural" occurrence, something that just happened once I made it past the exit. Instead, it has been a process of discovery, soul searching, and a conscience effort to change my beliefs / behaviors from those programmed by a destructive cult to those that are allowing me to live a healthy life.
At this stage I have not gone back to any religion. I stopped briefly to nose around two offshoots and once I smelled the stench of Wierwille in their brands I kept moving.
For me the biggest, single point of release has come through reading and posting. Reading what other's have uncovered concerning Wierwille and sorting through my thoughts by typing them into the forums here at GSC. In fact, last week I ordered "Losing the Way" by Kristen Skedgell.
Stringing chairs is something I learned on the field, and did all the way through my time in twi. Even in-residence we had long strings that stretched across the larger auditorium at Camp Gunnison so we could get all those chairs perfectly aligned. In-rez we used to argue on chair stringing techniques. All of those goof ball details and all of that time wasted squabbling about NOTHING!
Wasted time in a wasted program that issues garbage degrees upon completion that are worth nothing.
Getting rid of the way international's fingerprint on my life has not been a "natural" occurrence, something that just happened once I made it past the exit. Instead, it has been a process of discovery, soul searching, and a conscience effort to change my beliefs / behaviors from those programmed by a destructive cult to those that are allowing me to live a healthy life.
Exactly!.....it takes a deliberate, conscience effort to uncover and examine and expunge the whole of wierwillism from one's life.
"Deprogramming" IS a matter of habit. To the degree that an ex-wayfer continues to fellowship with people who still hold to the Way's erroneous doctrines and practices, that person continues to be a wayfer.
john......your posts rarily add much to the conversation and this is another case in point.
Deprogramming, exit counseling, interventions, thought reform......all of these topics can be studied in length if one so chooses. Your little quip, "deprogramming is natural, based on our habit patterns" is a dismal attempt of interjecting your perspective of something that you, seemingly, know very little about.
Wierwille set in motion a system of repetition that "programmed" individuals from their former lives. The abandonment of family, mixed with repetition and isolation, no questioning the mog, the demands for strict loyalty, etc.....WAS a programming of thought reform. Twi adheres to a top-down command structure that runs at cross-purposes with the Father/son relationship in christianity.....and the wisdom of Proverbs. Obedience is the mortar of twi's building.......not the love of God.
Anyone who has studied thought reform or deprogramming knows that its FAR MORE than just trying to "force someone against their chosen belief system." At stages, deprogrammers introduce concepts of questioning authority to jumpstart the critical thinking process.....or bring in family members to initiate a re-bonding of family process. Etc. Etc.
All of this stringing chairs, condiments, silverware placement, floral arrangements, meticulous flower beds, etc. is the petting loyalty to servitude obedience that strokes twi-idolatry. This busy-work detracts and negates the pressing work of healing the sick, mending the brokenhearted, relieving the heavy burdens, etc. that defines true christian work. In the end, I believe that those who continue to embrace the "programming of twi"......the day will come, when the Lord will say "Depart from me. I never knew you."
Skyrider: You don't speak for everybody. Your pathetic house of cards moral superiority can be effortlessly knocked down by one guy (that would be me) who disagrees with you. Effortless as breathing. Nobody is morally superior to anybody else, otherwise Christ wouldn't have had to die for you. The only place where moral superiority has any real clout is in credibility. If someone is perceived to be moral, then they have more credibility, but credibility and morality are...manmade. Where else do you have credibility besides here? Again, you do not speak for everybody. Psst. Neither do I.
In the end, I believe that those who continue to embrace the "programming of twi"......the day will come, when the Lord will say "Depart from me. I never knew you."
i think that is going too far. you can never speak for the Lord, in my humble opinion, especially when you say he will say "I never knew you"
john......your posts rarily add much to the conversation and this is another case in point.
Skyrider: You don't speak for everybody. Your pathetic house of cards moral superiority can be effortlessly knocked down by one guy (that would be me) who disagrees with you. Effortless as breathing. Nobody is morally superior to anybody else, otherwise Christ wouldn't have had to die for you. The only place where moral superiority has any real clout is in credibility. If someone is perceived to be moral, then they have more credibility, but credibility and morality are...manmade. Where else do you have credibility besides here? Again, you do not speak for everybody. Psst. Neither do I.
I agree with him and usually find myself disagreeing with you. Disagreement is not moral superiority, it's simply disagreement.
The topic made it's way to a related sub-topic, namely efforts people have taken to remove the way international's effects on their lives. No one is claiming moral superiority. In fact, it is an unnecessary requisite to disagree with you. Leave the red herring - straw man logic fallacies out of it.
This is his typical modus operandi, Old Skool.... red herrings, straw man arguments and whatever flawed attempt at logic strikes his fancy. And, when all else fails, he resorts to, "nanny, nanny, boo boo...yo mama wears combat boots!"
It kind of reminds me of the time he said that if your wife gets too annoying, you should slap her around. (Now there's some advise that's well rooted in the Bible, eh?) Except, this is the internet and real slaps don't travel well in cyber space.
Johniam/excie......seriously, I don't think that I've gone too far by saying that those who continue to embrace the "programming of twi".....stringing chairs, condiments, floral arrangements, breathmints in dishes, etc.....would lead to this. Who could possibly say that such rigid obsession of stringing chairs would lead to BUILDING ONE'S HOUSE UPON A ROCK, OR THE ROCK CHRIST JESUS?
These scriptures might possibly help convey what I said.....
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Let me add.....this whole context speaks of false prophets, good tree, good fruit, evil tree, evil fruit...
Those entrenched in this evil.......I believe it is fair to state Matt. 7:23
But hey....that's just me. <_<
Re-read the context of my statement. I cannot possibly believe that the Lord would approve of a cult's nitpicky micro-management of things.....rather than DOING the Lord's work.
All of this stringing chairs, condiments, silverware placement, floral arrangements, meticulous flower beds, etc. is the petting loyalty to servitude obedience that strokes twi-idolatry. This busy-work detracts and negates the pressing work of healing the sick, mending the brokenhearted, relieving the heavy burdens, etc. that defines true christian work. In the end, I believe that those who continue to embrace the "programming of twi"......the day will come, when the Lord will say "Depart from me. I never knew you."
Getting rid of the way international's fingerprint on my life has not been a "natural" occurrence, something that just happened once I made it past the exit. Instead, it has been a process of discovery, soul searching, and a conscience effort to change my beliefs / behaviors from those programmed by a destructive cult to those that are allowing me to live a healthy life.
At this stage I have not gone back to any religion. I stopped briefly to nose around two offshoots and once I smelled the stench of Wierwille in their brands I kept moving
well, i left shortly after the poo poo paper came out
i still have not gone back to any religion and i am absolutely fine with that and i truly believe god and christ are as well
once again sky, i would never speak for the lord our god / christ
All this detail...stringing chairs...keeping plates and flatware at exact measured(?) positions.....the persistence on retemories letter perfect......Now I see this as evil in and of it self....BECAUSE. None of us went to twi knowing anything about Scripture but we all wanted to know God and His Son....and the Scripture. So....buy insisting we follow certain exact principles, such as even how underwear and other clothing should be folded in a drawer they trained our minds to think...."everything around here is one big pile of details". It wouldn't be much of a leap for us who knew no better and had no real standard to measure Biblical Study and the correctness of such study.....it's easy to transfer the IDEA of....hey look so much detail goes in here...and over here....and don't forget how the grass is mowed.....etc that we automatically thought the Word was handled with the same care and precision. It wasn't but we had no way to know that.
quote: Disagreement is not moral superiority, it's simply disagreement.
quote: I believe that those who continue to embrace the "programming of twi"......the day will come, when the Lord will say "Depart from me. I never knew you."
The reason he believes that is because he thinks he's morally superior. How do you know that the offshoots aren't healing the sick, mending the brokenhearted, and relieving heavy burdens? You don't! You just assume they aren't because your moral superiority makes it so.
Jesus said "depart from me, I never knew you" before the day of Pentecost. He wasn't speaking to the church. See what happens when you depart from God's grace? You become debtor to do the whole law. The law of sin and death (Romans 8). Thanks, but I'll stick with the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus (same chapter).
I doubt anyone thinks he's morally superior. Of course it is totally correct that any of the offshoots might be producing any of the signs, miracles and wonders you mention. However, things like that seem to attract attention to themselves. When the Way East and Way West were active in the earlier days gone by....it was these things that attracted attention to these groups. I think we might have seen more of these things from any of the offshoots. Of course, most of the time in twi itself, during the time I was active (78-98) there were very very few of these healings and mending of broken hearts in comparison to what should have been going on, The offshoots are following the same path of twi so I think the results would be comparable.
I'm glad you're thinking and carefully considering these things. Too many folks just let somebody else do all the "work".
Jesus said "depart from me, I never knew you" before the day of Pentecost. He wasn't speaking to the church. See what happens when you depart from God's grace? You become debtor to do the whole law. The law of sin and death (Romans 8). Thanks, but I'll stick with the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus (same chapter).
...
What makes you so certain that the gospel of Matthew wasn't written to the Church, John? Because the Doctor (he wasn't really a doctor, you know) said so? Who says that "I never knew you!" was part of the law of Moses rather than part of Jesus Christ's fulfillment of that law?
Matthew was written well after the day of Pentecost BY a Christian TO a group of Christians, probably from a strongly Jewish background, but accepted as authoritative by the whole early Church.
The pericope in question was probably included because there were already leaders in the first century
Church who had fooled THEMSELVES into believing they were serving the Lord when they were actually serving their own bellies, as Wierwille and many of his followers did.
The book of Romans ALSO includes this passage, "Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." (Romans 11:20b-21)
My GOODNESS! How Wierwille perverted the Scriptures to make it sound as if that verse were not addressed to Christians! But if you read the section carefully, you can see it was addressed to Christians from Gentile backgrounds.
Romans 8 says nothing outside of ourselves can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord, but it doesn't say we can't willingly turn our hearts away from the Lord. And our hearts are just deceitful enough to convince us we are still serving the Lord, even when we've turned our hearts far from Him.
The "moral superiority" you write of is the "highmindedness" Romans warns us against. It is the highmindedness that Wierwille lusted after, and that we learned as arrogance from him.
It's not enough for a person to think he's corrected the damage Wierwille did to him just because he doesn't drug and rape young women himself. To find a twig that's just like it was in the good old days is not enough for him to say he's left the bad things behind.
Wierwille made fools of us! We have to go to extraordinary lengths to make sure that foolishness has been well washed away!
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
6
9
10
5
Popular Days
Mar 4
12
Feb 26
9
Feb 27
9
Mar 3
7
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 6 posts
skyrider 9 posts
waysider 10 posts
OldSkool 5 posts
Popular Days
Mar 4 2012
12 posts
Feb 26 2012
9 posts
Feb 27 2012
9 posts
Mar 3 2012
7 posts
Popular Posts
johniam
At Dennys they do wonderful things with eggs...(whispered) they cook them! And Some auditoriums do wonderful things with seats...they attach them to the floor!
Ham
I think the only difference it made.. it showed that a few dedicated individuals really CARED. If it wasn't the vicster.. maybe it would have been for a better cause.. well, I've found a few better
waysider
I think his point was to try to compare what we did in a "non-profit" cult to something being done in an upscale, "for profit" establishment. You know, like when people try to compare V.PeePee to Davi
Steve Lortz
My time in "deprogramming" from TWI was more extended than some, because I continued to hang out with ex-wafers who were trying to "save the baby" while throwing out the bath water.
I didn't really start a thorough deprogram until I saw the same abusive patterns being repeated by leaders. Then I started to question whether there WAS any baby.
The first of Wierwille's lies I investigated was his teaching about what STFI/TLTF calls "the Administration of the Sacred Secret."
The Bible never uses the word "oikonomia" (translated "dispensation" or "administration") to mean "a period of time." Wierwille's definition of the Church as a wholely new thing fails. Wierwille's definition of salvation fails. Wierwille's understanding of the Lordship of Jesus Christ fails.
There is much to be deprogrammed of, in every way.
Stringing chairs, etc., was an exercise in programming our minds to be mindlessly obedient, to be very aware of peculiar accuracy in tiny things, while being completely oblivious to ENORMOUS error.
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
good point, steve
and johnyouare, what is your point exactly? asked with respect....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I think his point was to try to compare what we did in a "non-profit" cult to something being done in an upscale, "for profit" establishment. You know, like when people try to compare V.PeePee to David or Paul or somebody else who resembled him in no way that was relevant other than sharing the same gender. Or when they try to compare our life in the TWI commune to something that happened 2,000 freakin' years ago, in a totally different culture, under totally different circumstances....but I could be wrong...What sayest thou, John?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
quote: and johnyouare, what is your point exactly? asked with respect....
I had 2 points...
1) deprogramming is natural, based on our habit patterns. Anything done by one's self to help the process along will probably be counter productive (the hurrier I go the behinder I get), and the idea of kidnapping someone, tieing them up with duct tape, and force feeding them against their chosen belief system is.....rape?
2) you don't have to be in a cult to be anal about details, and being anal about details isn't always a bad thing. I was kind of agreeing with WG that the idea that stringing chairs and being mathematically meticulous about table utensils makes one more spiritual is a waste of time. I think Solomon said it best...(Eccl. 12:12) - And further, by these (words of the wise from the previous verse), my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. (v.13) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. The reason much study is a weariness of the flesh is because that "study" always leads to activities, like stringing chairs, which is weariness of the flesh. The Pharisees laid grievous burdens on people and tithed their anise and cumin when they should have just treated those people better. I don't know just how "grievous" stringing chairs is, but you get the idea.
quote: Or when they try to compare our life in the TWI commune to something that happened 2,000 freakin' years ago, in a totally different culture, under totally different circumstances..
I think we're supposed to compare ourselves to Christ and his followers and to God's people. So you don't even believe there is a spiritual side of life anymore?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
john......your posts rarily add much to the conversation and this is another case in point.
Deprogramming, exit counseling, interventions, thought reform......all of these topics can be studied in length if one so chooses. Your little quip, "deprogramming is natural, based on our habit patterns" is a dismal attempt of interjecting your perspective of something that you, seemingly, know very little about.
Wierwille set in motion a system of repetition that "programmed" individuals from their former lives. The abandonment of family, mixed with repetition and isolation, no questioning the mog, the demands for strict loyalty, etc.....WAS a programming of thought reform. Twi adheres to a top-down command structure that runs at cross-purposes with the Father/son relationship in christianity.....and the wisdom of Proverbs. Obedience is the mortar of twi's building.......not the love of God.
Anyone who has studied thought reform or deprogramming knows that its FAR MORE than just trying to "force someone against their chosen belief system." At stages, deprogrammers introduce concepts of questioning authority to jumpstart the critical thinking process.....or bring in family members to initiate a re-bonding of family process. Etc. Etc.
All of this stringing chairs, condiments, silverware placement, floral arrangements, meticulous flower beds, etc. is the petting loyalty to servitude obedience that strokes twi-idolatry. This busy-work detracts and negates the pressing work of healing the sick, mending the brokenhearted, relieving the heavy burdens, etc. that defines true christian work. In the end, I believe that those who continue to embrace the "programming of twi"......the day will come, when the Lord will say "Depart from me. I never knew you."
.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Getting rid of the way international's fingerprint on my life has not been a "natural" occurrence, something that just happened once I made it past the exit. Instead, it has been a process of discovery, soul searching, and a conscience effort to change my beliefs / behaviors from those programmed by a destructive cult to those that are allowing me to live a healthy life.
At this stage I have not gone back to any religion. I stopped briefly to nose around two offshoots and once I smelled the stench of Wierwille in their brands I kept moving.
For me the biggest, single point of release has come through reading and posting. Reading what other's have uncovered concerning Wierwille and sorting through my thoughts by typing them into the forums here at GSC. In fact, last week I ordered "Losing the Way" by Kristen Skedgell.
Stringing chairs is something I learned on the field, and did all the way through my time in twi. Even in-residence we had long strings that stretched across the larger auditorium at Camp Gunnison so we could get all those chairs perfectly aligned. In-rez we used to argue on chair stringing techniques. All of those goof ball details and all of that time wasted squabbling about NOTHING!
Wasted time in a wasted program that issues garbage degrees upon completion that are worth nothing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Exactly!.....it takes a deliberate, conscience effort to uncover and examine and expunge the whole of wierwillism from one's life.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
"Deprogramming" IS a matter of habit. To the degree that an ex-wayfer continues to fellowship with people who still hold to the Way's erroneous doctrines and practices, that person continues to be a wayfer.
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
thanks for the reply, johnyouare
that's a worthy cause daer friend. i wish you all good
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Thanks excie!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i think that is going too far. you can never speak for the Lord, in my humble opinion, especially when you say he will say "I never knew you"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
I agree with him and usually find myself disagreeing with you. Disagreement is not moral superiority, it's simply disagreement.
The topic made it's way to a related sub-topic, namely efforts people have taken to remove the way international's effects on their lives. No one is claiming moral superiority. In fact, it is an unnecessary requisite to disagree with you. Leave the red herring - straw man logic fallacies out of it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
This is his typical modus operandi, Old Skool.... red herrings, straw man arguments and whatever flawed attempt at logic strikes his fancy. And, when all else fails, he resorts to, "nanny, nanny, boo boo...yo mama wears combat boots!"
It kind of reminds me of the time he said that if your wife gets too annoying, you should slap her around. (Now there's some advise that's well rooted in the Bible, eh?) Except, this is the internet and real slaps don't travel well in cyber space.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Johniam/excie......seriously, I don't think that I've gone too far by saying that those who continue to embrace the "programming of twi".....stringing chairs, condiments, floral arrangements, breathmints in dishes, etc.....would lead to this. Who could possibly say that such rigid obsession of stringing chairs would lead to BUILDING ONE'S HOUSE UPON A ROCK, OR THE ROCK CHRIST JESUS?
These scriptures might possibly help convey what I said.....
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Let me add.....this whole context speaks of false prophets, good tree, good fruit, evil tree, evil fruit...
Those entrenched in this evil.......I believe it is fair to state Matt. 7:23
But hey....that's just me. <_<
Re-read the context of my statement. I cannot possibly believe that the Lord would approve of a cult's nitpicky micro-management of things.....rather than DOING the Lord's work.
.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I was just thinking ....If fictional character Adrian Monk had been in The Way, he would have been the greatest class instructor of all time.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
well, i left shortly after the poo poo paper came out
i still have not gone back to any religion and i am absolutely fine with that and i truly believe god and christ are as well
once again sky, i would never speak for the lord our god / christ
you have no idea what is within someone
that's my take
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Disagreement.. hmm. How about disagreeing with one's self?
So one wakes up.. and finds everything that one put stock into believing was just plain, completely, nasty, wrong..
there are worse things in life. Blindly going on, thinking that one has the tiger by the tail..
Maybe the tiger has YOU..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Ahhh,yes...maybe the tiger has YOU.
Dad: Stop pulling the cat's tail, son.
Son: I'm just hanging on. The cat's doing all the pulling.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
krys
All this detail...stringing chairs...keeping plates and flatware at exact measured(?) positions.....the persistence on retemories letter perfect......Now I see this as evil in and of it self....BECAUSE. None of us went to twi knowing anything about Scripture but we all wanted to know God and His Son....and the Scripture. So....buy insisting we follow certain exact principles, such as even how underwear and other clothing should be folded in a drawer they trained our minds to think...."everything around here is one big pile of details". It wouldn't be much of a leap for us who knew no better and had no real standard to measure Biblical Study and the correctness of such study.....it's easy to transfer the IDEA of....hey look so much detail goes in here...and over here....and don't forget how the grass is mowed.....etc that we automatically thought the Word was handled with the same care and precision. It wasn't but we had no way to know that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
quote: Disagreement is not moral superiority, it's simply disagreement.
quote: I believe that those who continue to embrace the "programming of twi"......the day will come, when the Lord will say "Depart from me. I never knew you."
The reason he believes that is because he thinks he's morally superior. How do you know that the offshoots aren't healing the sick, mending the brokenhearted, and relieving heavy burdens? You don't! You just assume they aren't because your moral superiority makes it so.
Jesus said "depart from me, I never knew you" before the day of Pentecost. He wasn't speaking to the church. See what happens when you depart from God's grace? You become debtor to do the whole law. The law of sin and death (Romans 8). Thanks, but I'll stick with the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus (same chapter).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
krys
I doubt anyone thinks he's morally superior. Of course it is totally correct that any of the offshoots might be producing any of the signs, miracles and wonders you mention. However, things like that seem to attract attention to themselves. When the Way East and Way West were active in the earlier days gone by....it was these things that attracted attention to these groups. I think we might have seen more of these things from any of the offshoots. Of course, most of the time in twi itself, during the time I was active (78-98) there were very very few of these healings and mending of broken hearts in comparison to what should have been going on, The offshoots are following the same path of twi so I think the results would be comparable.
I'm glad you're thinking and carefully considering these things. Too many folks just let somebody else do all the "work".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
What makes you so certain that the gospel of Matthew wasn't written to the Church, John? Because the Doctor (he wasn't really a doctor, you know) said so? Who says that "I never knew you!" was part of the law of Moses rather than part of Jesus Christ's fulfillment of that law?
Matthew was written well after the day of Pentecost BY a Christian TO a group of Christians, probably from a strongly Jewish background, but accepted as authoritative by the whole early Church.
The pericope in question was probably included because there were already leaders in the first century
Church who had fooled THEMSELVES into believing they were serving the Lord when they were actually serving their own bellies, as Wierwille and many of his followers did.
The book of Romans ALSO includes this passage, "Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." (Romans 11:20b-21)
My GOODNESS! How Wierwille perverted the Scriptures to make it sound as if that verse were not addressed to Christians! But if you read the section carefully, you can see it was addressed to Christians from Gentile backgrounds.
Romans 8 says nothing outside of ourselves can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord, but it doesn't say we can't willingly turn our hearts away from the Lord. And our hearts are just deceitful enough to convince us we are still serving the Lord, even when we've turned our hearts far from Him.
The "moral superiority" you write of is the "highmindedness" Romans warns us against. It is the highmindedness that Wierwille lusted after, and that we learned as arrogance from him.
It's not enough for a person to think he's corrected the damage Wierwille did to him just because he doesn't drug and rape young women himself. To find a twig that's just like it was in the good old days is not enough for him to say he's left the bad things behind.
Wierwille made fools of us! We have to go to extraordinary lengths to make sure that foolishness has been well washed away!
Love,
Steve
Edited by Steve LortzLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.