After the first 2 - COUNT 'EM - 2 days of reading for this paper, I am convinced Wierwille burnt all his reference books simply because he did not want to do the hard work of genuine scholarship!
Ok, so let's start with some obvious questions: How many languages were heard? If it's more than 12, that would seem to indicate there were more than 12 people SITting.
Ok, so let's start with some obvious questions: How many languages were heard? If it's more than 12, that would seem to indicate there were more than 12 people SITting.
No?
Well... I actually have to start with the most obvious question of all... what did Luke mean when he wrote "...kai en toi sumplerousthai ten hemeran tes pentecostes..."
I currently think it can be translated accurately as "and during the topping-off of the day of Pentecost..."
That's as far as I've gotten so far...
No wait... FIRST, I have to ask how probable was it that "Luke" wrote it? ...and did he mean it as history?... or as theology? ... or as BOTH? Did "Luke" get his chocolate mixed up with his peanut butter?
I have begun reading I. Howard Marshall's Luke: Historian and Theologian, (Grand Rapids, Zondervan: 1970) to see what he has to say about it, and to keep a reading journal so I can reference what I've read, if I need to later.
I think it's going to take about two years to do this topic (A Translation of Acts 2 through the Lens of Walter Kaiser's Diachronic Promise-Plan Organizing Principle) right. There will be times when this thread moves at a seeming snail's pace. I guarantee it won't be what we were taught in PFAL.
The paper will also need a biblically derived definition of "spirit", and an explanation of the Stoic concept of "spirit" to show how I Corinthians 8:6 sheds light on the happenings of Acts 2.
I Corinthians 8:6 doesn't contain the word "spirit", but the use of the prepositions "out from" (ek) and "into" (eis) imply a concept the Stoics called "tonic motion", and attributed to the spirit which informs all of the cosmos, and transmits the logos (the will of the hegemonikon) from the hegemonikon (the mind of the cosmos) throughout the cosmos.
I am what we are learning in Theology and Culture to call a "social outlier"! That's part of the reason I think it's gonna take me a couple o' years to write this puppy!
I just need to know if your thesis is intended to be read by Jesuit priests, Buddhist monks or angry atheists.
My profs don't fit into any of those categories, nor are they evangelical protestants, nor fundamentalists. The group came out of the Holiness Movement of the 1880s, so it has some parallels with the Wesleyans, however, this particular group rejected all creeds as man-made and divisive. There are all kinds of Christians in our classes, including a Quaker "pastor" and a Coptic Egyptian. It's more fun than a barrel of monkeys! but it does have its own form of rigor. Today's Theology and Culture presentation/seminar was on post-modern deconstruction (in favor of, cuz that particular prof is younger than I am).
Why does it matter who the thesis is intended to be read by? As long as "jargon," being terms where the meaning is known by a particular closed group, surely whatever Steve finds should be available to all? We ex-TWI folk have had enough jargon (Wayspeak) to last our lifetimes. Steve's terms have to be defined, not known and understood only by the in-crowd. With such a mixed bunch of fellow students, jargon may be naturally limited.
Having said that, I'm not entirely sure what "social outlier" or "post-modern deconstruction" mean!
Steve, look forward to your postings on this thread.
Curious to know his capacity for intellectual freedom. If his professors are Dawkins and Hawking, he's wasting his time. If they are Robertson and Billy Graham, he is not advised to question the authorship or historicity of Acts. Just want to know how free he can be.
Curious to know his capacity for intellectual freedom. If his professors are Dawkins and Hawking, he's wasting his time. If they are Robertson and Billy Graham, he is not advised to question the authorship or historicity of Acts. Just want to know how free he can be.
My Theology and Culture professor is named Robertson, and he will be my thesis mentor (a job I used to do for seniors at the high school where my "day job" was teaching 7th graders how to write persuasive essays), but he ain't THAT Robertson! Due to an unusual conjunction of circumstances, I can be as free as the breeze, and I know my profs will evaluate me on how well I do my research (REAL research, not TWI crap), and how I do the presentation, not on whether my conclusions agree with pre-conceived dogma.
I can say that because I have written some pretty controversial class papers already, and I spend a lot of time hanging out with the profs during their office hours.
I originally came to school as an undergraduate here in the fall of 1967. I have learned that several of my profs graduated in the spring of 1967, and we were like ships that passed in the night. We can talk about buildings and events and people who were significant on campus 45 years ago, like when the SDS people came over from the local state university to try to organize a leftist political peace movement, but were frustrated because there was already a well-organized religious peace movement on campus.
Well, when these profs left in the spring of '67, they made a plan to come back and take over the seminary. They don't think they've succeeded, because they've pretty much been here on a day-by-day basis, but I haven't! I've been adventuring around for the last 45 years (only 7 in TWI, only about 9 with CES), and I see some BIG CHANGES that have happened here. Some of the younger profs are more radical (in a theological, not a political sense)than us old geezers, but we think that is a good thing, more open to changes we had to take risks to pioneer. Right now, right here, I think there is more openness to honest, thoughful re-examination than any other place I know of.
I broke myself of spouting TWI jargon after I left CES. Sometimes that's what pains me so much when I read the latest thing John Lynn has put out. I am learning how to state the things I believe in the recognizable language of genuine scholarship, and I believe I will be successful, and will be allowed to be successful!
I do not know Thia and can't vouch for her beyond some bathroom wall commentary.
Sometimes I feel like kicking myself in the head until I'm senseless...
When I came home from Acts class today, my wife and I went through a little routine we do. When I come in the front door I can walk straight across the parlor and go into the bedroom. In the bedroom, I can turn right and go into the kitchen. In the kitchen, I can turn right and walk into my "scriptorium" (home office). In the scriproium, I can turn right and walk back into the parlor. This is an old house, and the corner where the four rooms meet is where the fireplace and chimney were located before they put central heating in.
So my wife is usually in the bedroom when I come in and I say, "I'm home!" She starts going through the kitchen and scriptorium to meet me while I go through the bedroom and the kitchen. We go around for a few times, calling out to each other, "Hey, where are you? I can hear you, but I can't see you!" Then one of us decides to quit playing and stops.
As we were doing that this noon, It struck me that I could use trigonometric functions to diagram our game as a circle on polar coordinate graph paper. We weouldn't be able to see each other because our positions (points of view) on the circle were out of phase and both were dynamic and in parallel. When one of us stopped, that point of view became static, and the one with the point of view that was still dynamic would meet the other because the phase was no longer parallel. (That was all stuff I had to learn in order to keep from destroying the Pogy by paralleling two electrical turbo-generators out of phase.)
While I was walking back up on campus for my afternoon Greek class, I was thinking that linear perspective, which was one of the keys to naturalistic representation in the Renaissance, has conditioned me to view things by default from a static point of view. (I learned that as an art major, in a galaxy far, far away, a long time ago.) When I got to class, and we started reviewing the advanced definitions of Greek tenses, it ALL fell into place... In English, we think of the passage of time from a static point of view... the Greeks thought of the passage of time from a dynamic point of view!
This has no direct bearing on the immediate matter of this thread, but I know it's going to come into play somewhere before this thesis is finished.
I want to kick myself in the head because now, I know, that I'm going to have to learn how to explain it!
Thanks for your patience, ALL you fans!
Love,
Steve
CORRECTION: Our points of view on the circle were IN phase until one of us stopped. That's when they went out of phase, and we could meet!
It cites many studies, papers, and books you might find helpful as well. Although it is not dealing with tongues in ancient cultures particularly.....it does explore tongues in current non Christian cultures.
I am getting a bit confused about what goes where now, so, I am not sure this is the right place to give this to you. I would have simply sent it to you privately, but, since it opens up a whole new set of questions about SIT.....especially for the Christian reader....I thought others may enjoy it as well. Hope it is okay I posted it here.
I am interested in this thread Steve can I ask when you write greek out you use the language and not transliterate... It makes it easier when comparing notes and looking it up in my Greek NT... If you have a Mac your keyboard can become a Greek Keyboard!
It cites many studies, papers, and books you might find helpful as well. Although it is not dealing with tongues in ancient cultures particularly.....it does explore tongues in current non Christian cultures.
I am getting a bit confused about what goes where now, so, I am not sure this is the right place to give this to you. I would have simply sent it to you privately, but, since it opens up a whole new set of questions about SIT.....especially for the Christian reader....I thought others may enjoy it as well. Hope it is okay I posted it here.
Geisha
This is a good thread for considering the reference you posted. Part of the reason I started this thread is because I know Raf doesn't want his thread to become too doctrinal. I scanned the article, though I will have to read it in detail later. I welcome your participation in this discussion. I need to understand YOUR point of view especially while I'm working on this paper!
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Steve Lortz
I know the first question some of my profs would ask me is "What do you really mean by 'really'?"
Gotta give it some thought...
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
After the first 2 - COUNT 'EM - 2 days of reading for this paper, I am convinced Wierwille burnt all his reference books simply because he did not want to do the hard work of genuine scholarship!
Love,
Steve
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Raf
There is that likelihood.
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Steve Lortz
Thanks, Raf! I don't know what you drink, but have one on me!
Love,
Steve
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Raf
Ok, so let's start with some obvious questions: How many languages were heard? If it's more than 12, that would seem to indicate there were more than 12 people SITting.
No?
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Steve Lortz
Well... I actually have to start with the most obvious question of all... what did Luke mean when he wrote "...kai en toi sumplerousthai ten hemeran tes pentecostes..."
I currently think it can be translated accurately as "and during the topping-off of the day of Pentecost..."
That's as far as I've gotten so far...
No wait... FIRST, I have to ask how probable was it that "Luke" wrote it? ...and did he mean it as history?... or as theology? ... or as BOTH? Did "Luke" get his chocolate mixed up with his peanut butter?
I have begun reading I. Howard Marshall's Luke: Historian and Theologian, (Grand Rapids, Zondervan: 1970) to see what he has to say about it, and to keep a reading journal so I can reference what I've read, if I need to later.
I think it's going to take about two years to do this topic (A Translation of Acts 2 through the Lens of Walter Kaiser's Diachronic Promise-Plan Organizing Principle) right. There will be times when this thread moves at a seeming snail's pace. I guarantee it won't be what we were taught in PFAL.
The paper will also need a biblically derived definition of "spirit", and an explanation of the Stoic concept of "spirit" to show how I Corinthians 8:6 sheds light on the happenings of Acts 2.
Stay tuned and be patient...
And please keep my feet to the fire!
Love,
Steve
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Raf
Questioning the very authorship of Acts?
Take the red pill, Neo, but know that once you do, there's no going back...
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Steve Lortz
I know that if I DON'T question everything, the committee that evaluates my thesis WILL :o
Love,
Steve
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Raf
Tell me about the school and the committee.
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cman
With respect to Acts 2.
What are you indicating or seeing in 1 Cor 8:6?
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Steve Lortz
...not much time right now, more details as time permits...
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
I Corinthians 8:6 doesn't contain the word "spirit", but the use of the prepositions "out from" (ek) and "into" (eis) imply a concept the Stoics called "tonic motion", and attributed to the spirit which informs all of the cosmos, and transmits the logos (the will of the hegemonikon) from the hegemonikon (the mind of the cosmos) throughout the cosmos.
I am what we are learning in Theology and Culture to call a "social outlier"! That's part of the reason I think it's gonna take me a couple o' years to write this puppy!
Love,
Steve
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Raf
I just need to know if your thesis is intended to be read by Jesuit priests, Buddhist monks or angry atheists.
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Steve Lortz
My profs don't fit into any of those categories, nor are they evangelical protestants, nor fundamentalists. The group came out of the Holiness Movement of the 1880s, so it has some parallels with the Wesleyans, however, this particular group rejected all creeds as man-made and divisive. There are all kinds of Christians in our classes, including a Quaker "pastor" and a Coptic Egyptian. It's more fun than a barrel of monkeys! but it does have its own form of rigor. Today's Theology and Culture presentation/seminar was on post-modern deconstruction (in favor of, cuz that particular prof is younger than I am).
Love,
Steve
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Twinky
Why does it matter who the thesis is intended to be read by? As long as "jargon," being terms where the meaning is known by a particular closed group, surely whatever Steve finds should be available to all? We ex-TWI folk have had enough jargon (Wayspeak) to last our lifetimes. Steve's terms have to be defined, not known and understood only by the in-crowd. With such a mixed bunch of fellow students, jargon may be naturally limited.
Having said that, I'm not entirely sure what "social outlier" or "post-modern deconstruction" mean!
Steve, look forward to your postings on this thread.
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Raf
Curious to know his capacity for intellectual freedom. If his professors are Dawkins and Hawking, he's wasting his time. If they are Robertson and Billy Graham, he is not advised to question the authorship or historicity of Acts. Just want to know how free he can be.
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waysider
Take it from an old theatre hack, it's always good to know what your audience expects.
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Steve Lortz
My Theology and Culture professor is named Robertson, and he will be my thesis mentor (a job I used to do for seniors at the high school where my "day job" was teaching 7th graders how to write persuasive essays), but he ain't THAT Robertson! Due to an unusual conjunction of circumstances, I can be as free as the breeze, and I know my profs will evaluate me on how well I do my research (REAL research, not TWI crap), and how I do the presentation, not on whether my conclusions agree with pre-conceived dogma.
I can say that because I have written some pretty controversial class papers already, and I spend a lot of time hanging out with the profs during their office hours.
I originally came to school as an undergraduate here in the fall of 1967. I have learned that several of my profs graduated in the spring of 1967, and we were like ships that passed in the night. We can talk about buildings and events and people who were significant on campus 45 years ago, like when the SDS people came over from the local state university to try to organize a leftist political peace movement, but were frustrated because there was already a well-organized religious peace movement on campus.
Well, when these profs left in the spring of '67, they made a plan to come back and take over the seminary. They don't think they've succeeded, because they've pretty much been here on a day-by-day basis, but I haven't! I've been adventuring around for the last 45 years (only 7 in TWI, only about 9 with CES), and I see some BIG CHANGES that have happened here. Some of the younger profs are more radical (in a theological, not a political sense)than us old geezers, but we think that is a good thing, more open to changes we had to take risks to pioneer. Right now, right here, I think there is more openness to honest, thoughful re-examination than any other place I know of.
I broke myself of spouting TWI jargon after I left CES. Sometimes that's what pains me so much when I read the latest thing John Lynn has put out. I am learning how to state the things I believe in the recognizable language of genuine scholarship, and I believe I will be successful, and will be allowed to be successful!
Love,
Steve
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Raf
Oh, man, thia is gonna be good!
This. I meant this.
I do not know Thia and can't vouch for her beyond some bathroom wall commentary.
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Steve Lortz
Sometimes I feel like kicking myself in the head until I'm senseless...
When I came home from Acts class today, my wife and I went through a little routine we do. When I come in the front door I can walk straight across the parlor and go into the bedroom. In the bedroom, I can turn right and go into the kitchen. In the kitchen, I can turn right and walk into my "scriptorium" (home office). In the scriproium, I can turn right and walk back into the parlor. This is an old house, and the corner where the four rooms meet is where the fireplace and chimney were located before they put central heating in.
So my wife is usually in the bedroom when I come in and I say, "I'm home!" She starts going through the kitchen and scriptorium to meet me while I go through the bedroom and the kitchen. We go around for a few times, calling out to each other, "Hey, where are you? I can hear you, but I can't see you!" Then one of us decides to quit playing and stops.
As we were doing that this noon, It struck me that I could use trigonometric functions to diagram our game as a circle on polar coordinate graph paper. We weouldn't be able to see each other because our positions (points of view) on the circle were out of phase and both were dynamic and in parallel. When one of us stopped, that point of view became static, and the one with the point of view that was still dynamic would meet the other because the phase was no longer parallel. (That was all stuff I had to learn in order to keep from destroying the Pogy by paralleling two electrical turbo-generators out of phase.)
While I was walking back up on campus for my afternoon Greek class, I was thinking that linear perspective, which was one of the keys to naturalistic representation in the Renaissance, has conditioned me to view things by default from a static point of view. (I learned that as an art major, in a galaxy far, far away, a long time ago.) When I got to class, and we started reviewing the advanced definitions of Greek tenses, it ALL fell into place... In English, we think of the passage of time from a static point of view... the Greeks thought of the passage of time from a dynamic point of view!
This has no direct bearing on the immediate matter of this thread, but I know it's going to come into play somewhere before this thesis is finished.
I want to kick myself in the head because now, I know, that I'm going to have to learn how to explain it!
Thanks for your patience, ALL you fans!
Love,
Steve
CORRECTION: Our points of view on the circle were IN phase until one of us stopped. That's when they went out of phase, and we could meet!
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waysider
I can hear you but I can't see you.
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geisha779
Hey Steve,
I know you were asking for references in the SIT thread and I thought you might find this paper useful...... http://www.asa3.org/...68Jennings.html
It cites many studies, papers, and books you might find helpful as well. Although it is not dealing with tongues in ancient cultures particularly.....it does explore tongues in current non Christian cultures.
I am getting a bit confused about what goes where now, so, I am not sure this is the right place to give this to you. I would have simply sent it to you privately, but, since it opens up a whole new set of questions about SIT.....especially for the Christian reader....I thought others may enjoy it as well. Hope it is okay I posted it here.
Geisha
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Naten00
I am interested in this thread Steve can I ask when you write greek out you use the language and not transliterate... It makes it easier when comparing notes and looking it up in my Greek NT... If you have a Mac your keyboard can become a Greek Keyboard!
Hope all is well Steve
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Steve Lortz
This is a good thread for considering the reference you posted. Part of the reason I started this thread is because I know Raf doesn't want his thread to become too doctrinal. I scanned the article, though I will have to read it in detail later. I welcome your participation in this discussion. I need to understand YOUR point of view especially while I'm working on this paper!
Love,
Steve
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