I had some good times. I won't deny that. I also had some bad times---- lots and lots of them. The cost of those "good times" was much too high. Some even paid with their lives.
When the smoke all cleared, I was faced with the reality that The Way was nothing but a cult, not even a special cult, just a piddly little Bible cult set in a cornfield, led by a scam artist who used the Bible to attach credibility to his twisted agenda..
skyrider, out of all the "regulars" who have previously posted here on GreaseSpot Cafe, I whole-heartedly agree with YOUR comments 120%.
If an individual, for example, were about to experience a Divorce (which I think is a zillion times more stressful than learning that your minister was engaging in a few "moral improprieties"), and you had trouble sleeping for a couple of weeks, a good friend would probably recommend that person seek some psychiatric counseling and hopefully get a prescription for Prozac or Vicitin to help them sleep at night until they could get over their stress. Assuming that person were to hold that same level of bitterness and animosity against an ex spouse for DECADES or QUARTER CENTURIES, most people would view them as "insane", or maybe even candidates to be "institutionalized".
I just have one simple question for you, skyrider (and I promise NOT to elaborate any further and possibly start a riot on one of these GSC Threads again), what exactly is preventing YOU right now from either devoting yourself to another Christian entity (even if it believes in the "Trinity"), OR, starting a Christian fellowship of your own to hopefully lead others to eternal salvation? I'm sincerely curious on that.
One thing, skyrider, I blatantly DISAGREE with you on is your view on TAKIT music. There's no way on God's green earth that you're going to convince Yours Truly that the song, "Don't Stop Speaking God's Word" has Devil-possessed lyrics. I may not be able to currently listen to it off a cassette, CD, or YouTube -- unfortunately, but I still have a pretty good rendition of it stored away in my own memory bank.
The green Way bumper stickers, on the other hand, made most cars look "honky tonk" and it was probably a blessing in disguise that the Way Bookstore phased them off its merchandise list. Thank God for small miracles.
Stickin' my nose in here where it probably doesn't belong. But what the heck.
First: Wierwille wasn't merely "engaging in a few 'moral improprieties'", he was drugging and raping (yes, I said raping.) young women over whom he had moral authority. Had he done these things today, in a society that is much more tuned in and technically savvy, he would probably have been caught, tried and convicted and gotten a life sentence.....these are not "moral improprieties" being discussed.
Second: This is not a Christian site. There are many Christians here. There are many Non-Christians here, as well. We don't judge each other by virtue of how much time and energy is spent on personal interests and beliefs..
Third: We all heal at our own rates of speed. Some heal quickly and some never do. Our concern is to provide a place and resources that can aid in the healing process no matter how long it takes.
Fourth: Nowhere did anyone say your choice of music is "Devil-Possessed".
You like Takit. That's fine. We all have our personal tastes in music. It's a non-issue.
Fifth: We're in complete agreement on the bumper stickers....tacky as hell.
I can't speak for Skyrider, but I think I am a regular, and I'm going to tell you that you've missed the point. We skwak about twi on this site as a warning for anybody who hears about it AND as a light in the belfry to anybody still in it....that it's safe to get out.
We're not bitter over a bad divorce. We are more like watchmen who've found a big pot-hole in the road. We are waving a bright light at night so the traveller doesn't damage his tires (like we did) falling into it.
Zbrick - you don't know very much about this site if all you see is people speaking out against twi. There are many forums here. Those forums is us, "playing" with one another about food, regular stuff, musical games, discussing doctrine (non twi stuff). Open your eyes and take a look around.
skyrider, out of all the "regulars" who have previously posted here on GreaseSpot Cafe, I whole-heartedly agree with YOUR comments 120%.
If an individual, for example, were about to experience a Divorce (which I think is a zillion times more stressful than learning that your minister was engaging in a few "moral improprieties"), and you had trouble sleeping for a couple of weeks, a good friend would probably recommend that person seek some psychiatric counseling and hopefully get a prescription for Prozac or Vicitin to help them sleep at night until they could get over their stress. Assuming that person were to hold that same level of bitterness and animosity against an ex spouse for DECADES or QUARTER CENTURIES, most people would view them as "insane", or maybe even candidates to be "institutionalized".
<snip>
zbrick.....in reading your post, I seriously doubt that you whole-heartedly agree with my comments 120%. How could that possibly be accurate when you deviate from my stance, inject a view of insanity for "regulars" that discuss twi issues and outright state that you disagree with Takit songs?
1) On the contrary, I would say that contributions to this GSC site serve as a warning of cult involvement. Have you not read in Scriptures where Jesus warned his disciples and followers of Pharisee and scribes transgressing the commandments of God by their man-made traditions? Several times, Jesus called them out as hypocrites. Galatians 5 might also help you, zbrick, to understand the postings here......namely, standing fast in the liberty wherein Christ has set you free and after verse 16 the listing of those who walk by the flesh/lust. Twi encompasses nearly every attribute in that listing.
Like kyrs noted, many of us are signaling a warning for travelers on the highway.....but where she generously states a big pothole, I might refer to it as a sink hole. Same warning, just differing levels of concern. Everyone here at GSC has had a unique experience with twi. Some have been deeply abused. Some have gone even further than posting on this site; some have written a book. Oppression, manipulation and exploitation are vicious weapons used against the soul of mankind. Free expression is healing and liberating.
2) Your concept of "insanity" for those who post here is very interesting. Associations, groups and foundations have been formulating for hundreds of years to counter measures that they see as aggrieved. Take for instance, John Walsh's America's Most Wanted.....to get this thugs off the streets and behind bars. Is that bitterness? Is that insanity? What about thugs who stand behind the pulpit and then, in private life, set their lusts and predation on women? Victor Paul Wierwille lived a double, deceitful life: this dramboie-downing teacher abused young women. And further, he sternly told Martindale to do the same.
3) With regards to the Takit music, I found it quite interesting that your FAVORITE SONG was "Don't Stop Speaking God's Word." Perhaps, you don't realize how that song is loaded with twi buzz-speak. Does it have Christian elements in it? Yes. But is it more twi front-loaded than Christian inspiration? Most definitely.
"Don't stop, never stop, don't stop speaking God's Word, don't stop speaking!"
I loved that song! It rings in my head and heart even as I type!
The only problem is, it was never God's Word that we were speaking. We were speaking Wierwille's words.
I remember inviting Jehovah's Witnesses into our house and trying to enlighten them about "the Mystery". It wasn't until later, after leaving TWI AND CES, and studying things for myself that I realized Wierwille's "Mystery" was a plagiarized hoax.
I remember more than one stretch lasting more than 3 hours going toe to toe, verse to verse with trinitarians, without even thinking about the fact that Jesus is still alive, still head of his body and has allowed the doctrine of the trinity to stand for a good 1500 years or so, when he could have quashed it any time he wanted to. The "Word" we spoke was of Wierwille's "absent Christ".
There were many things about TWI that I loved. Probably the greatest for me was the blue banner I had hanging on the wall in the living room of my home that read "The Word of God is The Will of God". But when I realized I had been unwittingly serving an organization so corrupt that its leaders knowingly countenanced the serial drugging and raping of young women, with NO compunction or remorse, I decided that I would no longer serve that organization in ANY way, and that I should spend at least as much commitment exposing the truth about the poisonous organization as I had spent promoting it.
The Way International was, and STILL IS, a totalitarian organization. It requires a total and CONTINUING commitment from its promoters. It required a total and continuing commitment from ME. A commitment I believed I could make to my Lord Jesus Christ ONLY. It seems to me that the only proper response I can make is to a TOTAL and CONTINUING exposure of The Way International's corruption as long as that organization exists.
One thing, skyrider, I blatantly DISAGREE with you on is your view on TAKIT music. There's no way on God's green earth that you're going to convince Yours Truly that the song, "Don't Stop Speaking God's Word" has Devil-possessed lyrics. I may not be able to currently listen to it off a cassette, CD, or YouTube -- unfortunately, but I still have a pretty good rendition of it stored away in my own memory bank.
The green Way bumper stickers, on the other hand, made most cars look "honky tonk" and it was probably a blessing in disguise that the Way Bookstore phased them off its merchandise list. Thank God for small miracles.
Now there is a quantum leap of insinuation.
No, I am not trying to convince "Yours Truly" that the song, Don't Stop Speaking God's Word
has Devil-possessed lyrics............BUT since you, zbrick, brought it up, have you checked this
out according to Scripture?
I see NO REFERENCE to "speaking God's Word."
There ARE references to 1) speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God,
2) speaking boldly in the Lord, 3) speaking by the Spirit of God, 4) speaking
the truth in love, 5) speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.
Don't stop speaking God's Word is twi buzz-speak. Period.
There were many things about TWI that I loved. Probably the greatest for me was the blue banner I had hanging on the wall in the living room of my home that read "The Word of God is The Will of God". But when I realized I had been unwittingly serving an organization so corrupt that its leaders knowingly countenanced the serial drugging and raping of young women, with NO compunction or remorse, I decided that I would no longer serve that organization in ANY way, and that I should spend at least as much commitment exposing the truth about the poisonous organization as I had spent promoting it.
Yeah....teaching truth and exposing their "bait and switch" fraud.
Religion and its practices always hide in the shadows of truth, always mask their intentions,
always provide a caste system of hierarchy, always fleece the underlings.
No surprise here. The gospels are full of accounts where Jesus confronted Pharisee poison.
The apostle Paul encountered religious opposition time and time again. In confronting them,
we are lessening the adulation and cash flow that strengthens their gains. Same deal,
Your concept of "insanity" for those who post here is very interesting. Associations, groups and foundations have been formulating for hundreds of years to counter measures that they see as aggrieved. Take for instance, John Walsh's America's Most Wanted.....to get this thugs off the streets and behind bars. Is that bitterness? Is that insanity? What about thugs who stand behind the pulpit and then, in private life, set their lusts and predation on women? Victor Paul Wierwille lived a double, deceitful life: this dramboie-downing teacher abused young women. And further, he sternly told Martindale to do the same. -- skyrider
As a point of disclosure here, my personal relationship with the Way Ministry is probably not as involved and intimate as most of the “regulars” here on Grease Spot Café. I was never Way Corps. I was a military WOW, which isn’t quite the same as being a regular WOW. So perhaps if I were a little more involved, I’d be a little more bitter against some of the Way leadership, even to this day. And then when you view someone like John Walsh of America’s Most Wanted , there probably is a very fine line between people who are truly “passionate” about a certain cause, and those who might be “insane”.
I often wondered if I had a close friend or relative who was either killed or maimed in 9/11 or last April’s Boston Marathon bombing, would I HATE and LOATHE the Muslim people right now – not just a handful of radical terrorists – but ALL Muslim people? Yeah, I probably would, maybe out of respect somehow for my friends and relatives. Although I know full well that in the end, all that pent up animosity and bitterness against Muslims ain’t really going to do me much good.
Victor Paul Wierwille, Don Wierwille, and Howard Allen have all gone on – several decades now – to meet God Almighty for their very own Judgment Day. Assuming even a fraction of the stuff said about these “gentlemen” here on GSC is true, then their Judgment Day experiences will be the ONLY glimpses of Heaven these guys will ever have. There’s no doubt in my mind, whatsoever, that God will deal harshly and justly to any false teacher of His Word. God can and will initiate REVENGE against anybody who screwed over His people – Vengeance is Mine, thus saith the Lord. I don’t believe for a second these guys “escaped” anything by dying – if anything, it merely started their eternity in Hell.
Enter L. Craig Martindale, who at last check was living in exile in that “sun and fun capital of the world”, Toledo Ohio. Wow, so I suppose that that’s just a wee bit more exciting than living in New Knoxville Ohio. And what might Martindale be doing these days for “laughs and giggles”??? I heard he was “doubling” his employment opportunities as both a UPS (United Parcel Service) driver, and then working as a fitness consultant at a nearby Bally’s gym. So if that’s true, here you’ve got a guy who, just about 20 years ago was running a multi-million dollar International church organization, and today he’s referred to as a “brownie” driver, and then afterwards, he shows fat, overweight people how to do crunches and squats.
Somebody told me that Martindale is just a mere shell of what he used to be – gee, I never would’ve guessed. Perhaps the more appropriate quote would be from King David, on former King Saul and his son Jonathan – Oh, how the mighty have fallen.
My question here is: If true, don’t you think Martindale has already gotten a little taste of what Hell might be like? Lastly, how does knowing the aforementioned information about Martindale positively enhance anybody’s Eternal Salvation here on Grease Spot Café?
"Don't stop, never stop, don't stop speaking God's Word, don't stop speaking!"
I loved that song! It rings in my head and heart even as I type!
The only problem is, it was never God's Word that we were speaking. We were speaking Wierwille's words.
Steve Lortz
A young lady, who was a Corps grad and involved in Way Productions, told me that it was no accident that the Ministry tapped, “Don’t Stop Speaking God’s Word” by TAKIT, as its marquee song to end, at least a couple, Rock of Ages.
Compare that to: “Rock And Roll All Nite”, by KISS, the beat of these songs, along with the catchy lyrics, prompts people to sing and dance along, even subconsciously. Since TAKIT member Skip Mesquite (who’s now passed on) performed with the popular Rock group, Tower of Power, he understood how to get people hooked on their music.
My friend told me that if secular Rock music uses this type of psychology to influence people to the message of their songs, then why can’t Christian music artists do the same thing? And appropriately so, how could you not leave the Rock of Ages, with listening to: “Don’t Stop Speaking God’s Word” at the very end, and then automatically think to yourself: I’m going to set the Way Ministry record in this next year for running the most PFAL classes – WOOOOO HOOOOOO!!!!!
Somebody told me that Martindale is just a mere shell of what he used to be – gee, I never would’ve guessed. Perhaps the more appropriate quote would be from King David, on former King Saul and his son Jonathan – Oh, how the mighty have fallen.
My question here is: If true, don’t you think Martindale has already gotten a little taste of what Hell might be like?
No, but I think he's gotten a taste of what punishment is like for his evil deeds.
I don't know if he even understands that he did evil deeds or what they were-
vpw certainly had no true understanding in his heart that what he did was wrong.
He knew OTHERS considered them wrong and hid them, but he convinced himself-
and lcm- that what he was doing was just fine.
If there is any form of literal Hell, then lcm's sins coming back to haunt him
is strictly "amateur hour" by comparison.
Lastly, how does knowing the aforementioned information about Martindale positively enhance anybody’s Eternal Salvation here on Grease Spot Café?
It's a non-issue. You seem to be the only one posting who thinks that it's an issue
and relevant to why we discuss what was done and what was happened.
Honestly- people keep posting the answer to Why We Post (to warn others so they can
either heal or avoid twi and its toxic doctrines and conduct),
and you keep completely ignoring the answers and pretending it's all about something
else, or that the posters here are all angry and emotional when posting warnings
and discussing evil deeds when that's usually NOT the case. I suppose that makes it
a LOT easier to dismiss everything we say, which saves you a lot of time even
entertaining whether we bring anything useful to the table.
I had some good times. I won't deny that. I also had some bad times---- lots and lots of them. The cost of those "good times" was much too high. Some even paid with their lives.
When the smoke all cleared, I was faced with the reality that The Way was nothing but a cult, not even a special cult, just a piddly little Bible cult set in a cornfield, led by a scam artist who used the Bible to attach credibility to his twisted agenda..
Attention Zbrick:
I can't speak for Skyrider, but I think I am a regular, and I'm going to tell you that you've missed the point. We skwak about twi on this site as a warning for anybody who hears about it AND as a light in the belfry to anybody still in it....that it's safe to get out.
We're not bitter over a bad divorce. We are more like watchmen who've found a big pot-hole in the road. We are waving a bright light at night so the traveller doesn't damage his tires (like we did) falling into it.
Zbrick - you don't know very much about this site if all you see is people speaking out against twi. There are many forums here. Those forums is us, "playing" with one another about food, regular stuff, musical games, discussing doctrine (non twi stuff). Open your eyes and take a look around.
zbrick.....in reading your post, I seriously doubt that you whole-heartedly agree with my comments 120%. How could that possibly be accurate when you deviate from my stance, inject a view of insanity for "regulars" that discuss twi issues and outright state that you disagree with Takit songs?
1) On the contrary, I would say that contributions to this GSC site serve as a warning of cult involvement. Have you not read in Scriptures where Jesus warned his disciples and followers of Pharisee and scribes transgressing the commandments of God by their man-made traditions? Several times, Jesus called them out as hypocrites. Galatians 5 might also help you, zbrick, to understand the postings here......namely, standing fast in the liberty wherein Christ has set you free and after verse 16 the listing of those who walk by the flesh/lust. Twi encompasses nearly every attribute in that listing.
Like kyrs noted, many of us are signaling a warning for travelers on the highway.....but where she generously states a big pothole, I might refer to it as a sink hole. Same warning, just differing levels of concern. Everyone here at GSC has had a unique experience with twi. Some have been deeply abused. Some have gone even further than posting on this site; some have written a book. Oppression, manipulation and exploitation are vicious weapons used against the soul of mankind. Free expression is healing and liberating.
2) Your concept of "insanity" for those who post here is very interesting. Associations, groups and foundations have been formulating for hundreds of years to counter measures that they see as aggrieved. Take for instance, John Walsh's America's Most Wanted.....to get this thugs off the streets and behind bars. Is that bitterness? Is that insanity? What about thugs who stand behind the pulpit and then, in private life, set their lusts and predation on women? Victor Paul Wierwille lived a double, deceitful life: this dramboie-downing teacher abused young women. And further, he sternly told Martindale to do the same.
3) With regards to the Takit music, I found it quite interesting that your FAVORITE SONG was "Don't Stop Speaking God's Word." Perhaps, you don't realize how that song is loaded with twi buzz-speak. Does it have Christian elements in it? Yes. But is it more twi front-loaded than Christian inspiration? Most definitely.
In my view, you STILL carry twi baggage with you without knowing it. You haven't taken the time to dismantle the subliminal cult messaging that is tucked away in those back compartments of your brain cells. One of the purposes of GSC is for that very purpose. Zbrick, why carry this excess baggage with you throughout life?
As a point of disclosure here, my personal relationship with the Way Ministry is probably not as involved and intimate as most of the “regulars” here on Grease Spot Café. I was never Way Corps. I was a military WOW, which isn’t quite the same as being a regular WOW. So perhaps if I were a little more involved, I’d be a little more bitter against some of the Way leadership, even to this day.[/b][/i].
It's a non-issue (Eternal Salvation). You seem to be the only one posting who thinks that it's an issue
and relevant to why we discuss what was done and what was happened.
Honestly- people keep posting the answer to Why We Post (to warn others so they can
either heal or avoid twi and its toxic doctrines and conduct),
and you keep completely ignoring the answers and pretending it's all about something
else, or that the posters here are all angry and emotional when posting warnings
and discussing evil deeds when that's usually NOT the case. I suppose that makes it
a LOT easier to dismiss everything we say, which saves you a lot of time even
entertaining whether we bring anything useful to the table.
WordWolf
It's also interesting that you feel, Eternal Salvation is just a "non-issue", I sure hope you remember that statement come Judgment Day.
But by your very own statement here Wolf dawg, specifically about "…twi and its toxic doctrines…" , so what do YOU have to say about the Trinity??? Founding Way President Victor Paul Wierwille wrote the famous book, "Jesus Christ is NOT God" – Was that the God's honest truth on Dr. Wierwille's part, OR, was that yet another example of what YOU refer to as "toxic doctrine" by the Way Ministry? Most ex-WAYfers, whom I know, still hold onto this as the God's honest truth despite whatever they may think about Dr. Wierwille's morals.
Lastly WordWolf, if you honestly believe in the aforementioned statement, do you physically reside in New Knoxville, Ohio???
The reason I ask that question is because it would truly be a LIE to even insinuate here that Way believers are relative in number to, say, the Mormons or the Jehovah Witnesses in the United States – NOT EVEN CLOSE. I live in southern NH, and prior to '02, I lived in Mass. I've NEVER been approached by anybody asking me if I'd like to go to a "Twig fellowship", OR, take "The Class" . Looking at the official Way Ministry's website, there wasn't even an option to find the nearest Twig fellowship to me – its site really isn't conducive to welcoming more people to join – it's sort of like a church's answer to the Free Masons (or a membership only group). And as I mentioned on another GSC thread fairly recently, it's been AT LEAST 25 years since I've seen a green Way bumper sticker on any vehicle I've encountered. Back in the good old days, I would probably average about one Way bumper sticker per month. Now, they are literally nowhere to be found.
So if you're that committed to these new Way believers, WordWolf dawg, why not go down to New Knoxville and live amongst them??? Why not set the example here, for everybody else to follow?
In some ways, I'm fairly sympathetic to your point of view, zbrick. But you aren't doing yourself any favors by attacking WordWolf in what seems like a mindless antagonism. There are lots of people who disagree with each other here, but the experienced hands have learned how to do it respectfully, without taking personal cheap shots at each other. Raf and I disagree about our conclusions sometimes, but I have utmost respect for his judgment, and recognize that we are coming from different basic assumptions.
Speaking about never stop speaking God's Word, where does all your eternal salvation business come from? The phrase only occurs once in the Bible, in Hebrews 9:5, a section of scripture that Wierwille said is not addressed to the Church in "this wonderful age of grace". The verse doesn't say that eternal salvation is given to everyone on the basis of faith. It says eternal salvation is given to those who OBEY Jesus Christ. So what about Wierwille's eternal salvation? Did Wierwille jeopardize his by drugging and raping innocent sisters in Christ? Are those who still collude with Wierwille jeopardizing their eternal salvation also?
It ain't as simple as Wierwille or his progeny would have it!
Again, I say, I'm fairly sympathetic to your point of view!
When I talk about Eternal Salvation, I'm basically referring to eternity in Heaven as opposed to eternity in Hell. More specifically, Romans 10:9.
Secondly, as far as the "Regulars" here on Grease Spot Cafe, you've got basically the same 5-10 folks who ASSUME they're helping people identify "Wolves in Sheep's Clothing" (or just another cheap excuse to publicly trash Way leadership) -- YET, they can't even render a simple answer here on whether the "Trinity" is Biblically accurate or not??? WordWolf even said himself/herself that they help identify all the "toxic doctrine" taught by the Way Ministry. Sure sounds like all these former Way Corps grads don't really know what the heck they're talking about.
But hey, I'll let it go if they don't really want to address my question. No big deal.
Secondly, as far as the "Regulars" here on Grease Spot Cafe, you've got basically the same 5-10 folks who ASSUME they're helping people identify "Wolves in Sheep's Clothing" (or just another cheap excuse to publicly trash Way leadership) -- YET, they can't even render a simple answer here on whether the "Trinity" is Biblically accurate or not??? WordWolf even said himself/herself that they help identify all the "toxic doctrine" taught by the Way Ministry. Sure sounds like all these former Way Corps grads don't really know what the heck they're talking about.
What are you on about here? Is that Pentecostal salad bowl haircut you've got restricting blood flow to your brain? Does your regurgitation of 100 decibel guilt sermons have you typing in all caps again? Surely puffing your chest out and starting fights on the internet is the best way to lead people to eternal life.
But by your very own statement here Wolf dawg, specifically about “…twi and its toxic doctrines…” , so what do YOU have to say about the Trinity??? Founding Way President Victor Paul Wierwille wrote the famous book, “Jesus Christ is NOT God” – Was that the God’s honest truth on Dr. Wierwille’s part, OR, was that yet another example of what YOU refer to as “toxic doctrine” by the Way Ministry? Most ex-WAYfers, whom I know, still hold onto this as the God’s honest truth despite whatever they may think about Dr. Wierwille’s morals.
What do I have to say about the "Trinity"? Not much. It doesn't appear in the Bible. So it's a church relic, like the "Apostle's Creed". Yet Wierwille's handling of Jesus Christ leaves much to be desired, and how he lived his life doesn't line up with someone whose life is built upon a rock. it just doesn't work that way, with all your life fruit showing as crap but you have some enlightened pure doctrine. in reality, the doctrine is as flawed as the life lived spouting it.
That's a subject that is totally irrelevant to this thread. There have been many discussions of the subject over the years. Try using the search function. If you don't find what you are looking for, start a thread in the doctrinal forum.
Toxic doctrine:
Perhaps the most toxic of all is the so-called "law of believing". Again, it's not really relative in a direct sense to this particular thread. Indirectly, I suppose, one might squeeze it in as a factor of "life in neverland". Throw in some dispensationalism, guilt and absence of remorse and you've got enough toxic doctrine to kill a horse.
Incidentally, you do know he wasn't really a "Dr.", don't you?
When I talk about Eternal Salvation, I'm basically referring to eternity in Heaven as opposed to eternity in Hell. More specifically, Romans 10:9.
Secondly, as far as the "Regulars" here on Grease Spot Cafe, you've got basically the same 5-10 folks who ASSUME they're helping people identify "Wolves in Sheep's Clothing" (or just another cheap excuse to publicly trash Way leadership) -- YET, they can't even render a simple answer here on whether the "Trinity" is Biblically accurate or not??? WordWolf even said himself/herself that they help identify all the "toxic doctrine" taught by the Way Ministry. Sure sounds like all these former Way Corps grads don't really know what the heck they're talking about.
But hey, I'll let it go if they don't really want to address my question. No big deal.
Like I said, I think I'm fairly sympathetic to your point of view, but I don't understand your seemingly unwarranted antagonism to the people who post here.
Considering the subject of "toxic doctrine", do you have any idea what you are really talking about? The Christological disagreements of the early Church were settled by the time of the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD. The result was what is popularly called the doctrine of the Trinity, but it's not what people think it is. It is that Jesus Christ has two natures, he is both fully human and fully divine. Do we understand that now the same way they understood it 1,562 years ago? No, we certainly do not! I'm inclined to believe the dyophysite feature of the trinity resides in the gift of the Holy Spirit rather than in the man Christ Jesus. Do you think the Lord Jesus Christ is the active head of his body? If so, then Jesus could have negated the doctrine of the Trinity ANY TIME HE WANTED TO during the last 15 hundred and sixty-two years. But he hasn't. Jesus can work far better with people who accept some form of trinitarian belief than he can with people who teach that he is absent, and then usurp his position in the minds of their followers, the way Wierwille did.
And what do you mean about "eternity" in Heaven or Hell? Romans 10:9&10 don't say ANYTHING about Heaven or Hell OR eternity. It says that people will be "saved", period. If you want to know what Paul meant by that, you have to go to Luke 18:18-30. "Eternal salvation", the phrase in Hebrews 5:9 is soterias aioniou in the Greek, which means "salvation belonging to the age" in reference to "the age to come" rather than belonging to what Paul calls "this present evil age" in Galatians 1:4. To receive "eternal life" means to receive the Spirit of resurrection life in the age to come", and the gift of the Holy Spirit received by Christians since the day of Pentecost is the earnest that we will receive the Spirit of resurrection life when Jesus returns.
I've been doing my homework, zbrick, as well as exposing the toxic doctrine propagated by Wierwille and his progeny.
So, I don't understand, why do you have such a burr under your tail?
zbrick, wow(and I don't mean Word over the World), you still run PFAL classes? In addition to my Lutheran congregation, I host an organic church, egalitarian/equalist which has no offices or titles, and I run Alpha, Open Home/Open Bible, 8 Searching Issues, Purpose Driven Life, Foundations, Christian Believer, Beginings series, Christianity Explored, Discipleship Explored, Reality, Walk the Talk, Life Worth Living, Jesus Lifestyle, Power Surge, Christian Life and Witness, and Beta video classes for free and meals/snacks/refreshments lasting less than 2 hours usually and with small group discussion after the presentation. Far better than Power For Abundant Living/Way of Abundance and Power. I feel sorry for you. btw, read Frank Viola and Leonard Sweet's Jesus: a Theography, much better than Jesus Christ is not God or One God and One Lord from Spirit and Truth Fellowship.
by the way(pun intended) is Martindale Peter Pan, Wierwille Captain Hook, and Rivenbark Tinkerbell? :biglaugh:/> guess that makes us Smee and the Lost Boys
If it wasn't for the ''regulars'' posting here at GSC, oh about 9 years ago now.. (holy crap!!!!!) Um, I might still be a slave to the bondage of TWI abusive system of religion.
They helped me take off my ''green colored glasses''.
Case in point: I STILL have relatives in TWI.
In which one told me recently of past ATROCITY that happened to her....and her only response was to ignore it and move on. It doesn't matter how much I say about the abuses and how wrong it is, she is under dilusion. Comfortable. Not ready to leave the confines of her religion. Not wanting to upset the apple cart. BUT, if and when she is ready, I hope she can come here to find answers.
She also said "Rosalie is an old lady, what harm can she do?"
oh my.
Go to the doctrinal section if you want to 'research' the Trinity respectfully on here Zbrick, otherwise, let those who are here, help those searching for a WAY out.
It’s also interesting that you feel, Eternal Salvation is just a “non-issue”, I sure hope you remember that statement come Judgment Day.
(snip)
Is that what I actually said? Let's see....
(snip)
My question here is: If true, don’t you think Martindale has already gotten a little taste of what Hell might be like? Lastly, how does knowing the aforementioned information about Martindale positively enhance anybody’s Eternal Salvation here on Greasespot Cafe?
(snip)
So, you asked about how knowing lcm was working at UPS
or whatever enhanced anyone's eternal salvation.
It was a stupid question, so I said so in a nicer way.
It's a non-issue. You seem to be the only one posting who thinks that it's an issue
and relevant to why we discuss what was done and what was happened.
lcm's job at UPS is a non-issue cocnerning people's eternal salvation.
DUUUUUHHH.
(snip)
It’s also interesting that you feel, Eternal Salvation is just a “non-issue”, I sure hope you remember that statement come Judgment Day.
(snip)
I can't tell if you're legitimately that slow, but you seem fairly able
to communicate properly, so it seems you're doing that DELIBERATELY.
In discussions about lcm's job, discussing eternal salvation of complete
strangers to him is a non-issue and off-topic.
In discussions about eternal salvation, discussion lcm working at UPS
is a non-issue and off-topic.
But, then, you brought up BOTH on a thread about NEITHER and blamed me
for them being non-issues.
So now you’ve got a pretty good idea how it feels, WordWolf dawg when YOU and penworks about 1-2 months ago, on this very same website, suckered me into being the world’s foremost authority on, The Passing of the Patriarch, because of a posting I made on another blog about Marcus Lamb and the Daystar Ministry. I feel your pain Wolf dawg, I feel your pain.
I really was willing to let it go, and be the adult and leave you alone
about your foolishness.
What we saw before:
Ralph D, once upon a time, reported about a number of incidents-
which we have documentation on this website which people can read,
and have discussed in detail, which he has even discussed here-
and you mistakenly conflated them into ONE incident.
Then you reported that "Passing of the Patriarch" was about something it
had nothing to do with, because you didn't know any better.
Someone corrected you. You got hostile and insisted you were correct.
People linked you to the document so you can read it yourself-
instead of being someone who never read a document who was telling people
who read it what it said-and getting it all wrong.
You refused, and we dropped it.
I figured you'd later read the thing and were embarassed you had been so
incorrect and yet so strident about it and being wrong, that you
would rather just never mention it again than admit you'd made such an
elementary mistake. Being an adult, I was willing to just let that go.
I was wrong about that-I thought too much of you.
Apparently, you still haven't read it, and instead of the fault being
yours for misunderstanding something,
the fault is ours for pointing out you made a big mistake.
If it wasn't for the ''regulars'' posting here at GSC, oh about 9 years ago now.. (holy crap!!!!!) Um, I might still be a slave to the bondage of TWI abusive system of religion.
They helped me take off my ''green colored glasses''.
Case in point: I STILL have relatives in TWI.
In which one told me recently of past ATROCITY that happened to her....and her only response was to ignore it and move on. It doesn't matter how much I say about the abuses and how wrong it is, she is under dilusion. Comfortable. Not ready to leave the confines of her religion. Not wanting to upset the apple cart. BUT, if and when she is ready, I hope she can come here to find answers.
She also said "Rosalie is an old lady, what harm can she do?"
oh my.
Go to the doctrinal section if you want to 'research' the Trinity respectfully on here Zbrick, otherwise, let those who are here, help those searching for a WAY out.
Peace
THIS is why we post.
We keep saying that.
You keep missing that.
Why bother coming here when it so offends your sensibilities?
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skyrider
Will there ever be an end to this nonsense? You know.....devotees of wayworld, twiers and ex-twiers, who fantasize [idolize] the "good-ole days." Those who fondly remember the green bumper stickers,
T-Bone
You have shared this point many times….and it’s been illustrated in many folks’ stories here on Grease Spot too. But lately I’ve been so fascinated by it. For a long time after I left TWI I think I st
waysider
I had some good times. I won't deny that. I also had some bad times---- lots and lots of them. The cost of those "good times" was much too high. Some even paid with their lives.
When the smoke all cleared, I was faced with the reality that The Way was nothing but a cult, not even a special cult, just a piddly little Bible cult set in a cornfield, led by a scam artist who used the Bible to attach credibility to his twisted agenda..
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zbrick
skyrider, out of all the "regulars" who have previously posted here on GreaseSpot Cafe, I whole-heartedly agree with YOUR comments 120%.
If an individual, for example, were about to experience a Divorce (which I think is a zillion times more stressful than learning that your minister was engaging in a few "moral improprieties"), and you had trouble sleeping for a couple of weeks, a good friend would probably recommend that person seek some psychiatric counseling and hopefully get a prescription for Prozac or Vicitin to help them sleep at night until they could get over their stress. Assuming that person were to hold that same level of bitterness and animosity against an ex spouse for DECADES or QUARTER CENTURIES, most people would view them as "insane", or maybe even candidates to be "institutionalized".
I just have one simple question for you, skyrider (and I promise NOT to elaborate any further and possibly start a riot on one of these GSC Threads again), what exactly is preventing YOU right now from either devoting yourself to another Christian entity (even if it believes in the "Trinity"), OR, starting a Christian fellowship of your own to hopefully lead others to eternal salvation? I'm sincerely curious on that.
One thing, skyrider, I blatantly DISAGREE with you on is your view on TAKIT music. There's no way on God's green earth that you're going to convince Yours Truly that the song, "Don't Stop Speaking God's Word" has Devil-possessed lyrics. I may not be able to currently listen to it off a cassette, CD, or YouTube -- unfortunately, but I still have a pretty good rendition of it stored away in my own memory bank.
The green Way bumper stickers, on the other hand, made most cars look "honky tonk" and it was probably a blessing in disguise that the Way Bookstore phased them off its merchandise list. Thank God for small miracles.
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waysider
Stickin' my nose in here where it probably doesn't belong. But what the heck.
First: Wierwille wasn't merely "engaging in a few 'moral improprieties'", he was drugging and raping (yes, I said raping.) young women over whom he had moral authority. Had he done these things today, in a society that is much more tuned in and technically savvy, he would probably have been caught, tried and convicted and gotten a life sentence.....these are not "moral improprieties" being discussed.
Second: This is not a Christian site. There are many Christians here. There are many Non-Christians here, as well. We don't judge each other by virtue of how much time and energy is spent on personal interests and beliefs..
Third: We all heal at our own rates of speed. Some heal quickly and some never do. Our concern is to provide a place and resources that can aid in the healing process no matter how long it takes.
Fourth: Nowhere did anyone say your choice of music is "Devil-Possessed".
You like Takit. That's fine. We all have our personal tastes in music. It's a non-issue.
Fifth: We're in complete agreement on the bumper stickers....tacky as hell.
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krys
Attention Zbrick:
I can't speak for Skyrider, but I think I am a regular, and I'm going to tell you that you've missed the point. We skwak about twi on this site as a warning for anybody who hears about it AND as a light in the belfry to anybody still in it....that it's safe to get out.
We're not bitter over a bad divorce. We are more like watchmen who've found a big pot-hole in the road. We are waving a bright light at night so the traveller doesn't damage his tires (like we did) falling into it.
Zbrick - you don't know very much about this site if all you see is people speaking out against twi. There are many forums here. Those forums is us, "playing" with one another about food, regular stuff, musical games, discussing doctrine (non twi stuff). Open your eyes and take a look around.
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skyrider
zbrick.....in reading your post, I seriously doubt that you whole-heartedly agree with my comments 120%. How could that possibly be accurate when you deviate from my stance, inject a view of insanity for "regulars" that discuss twi issues and outright state that you disagree with Takit songs?
1) On the contrary, I would say that contributions to this GSC site serve as a warning of cult involvement. Have you not read in Scriptures where Jesus warned his disciples and followers of Pharisee and scribes transgressing the commandments of God by their man-made traditions? Several times, Jesus called them out as hypocrites. Galatians 5 might also help you, zbrick, to understand the postings here......namely, standing fast in the liberty wherein Christ has set you free and after verse 16 the listing of those who walk by the flesh/lust. Twi encompasses nearly every attribute in that listing.
Like kyrs noted, many of us are signaling a warning for travelers on the highway.....but where she generously states a big pothole, I might refer to it as a sink hole. Same warning, just differing levels of concern. Everyone here at GSC has had a unique experience with twi. Some have been deeply abused. Some have gone even further than posting on this site; some have written a book. Oppression, manipulation and exploitation are vicious weapons used against the soul of mankind. Free expression is healing and liberating.
2) Your concept of "insanity" for those who post here is very interesting. Associations, groups and foundations have been formulating for hundreds of years to counter measures that they see as aggrieved. Take for instance, John Walsh's America's Most Wanted.....to get this thugs off the streets and behind bars. Is that bitterness? Is that insanity? What about thugs who stand behind the pulpit and then, in private life, set their lusts and predation on women? Victor Paul Wierwille lived a double, deceitful life: this dramboie-downing teacher abused young women. And further, he sternly told Martindale to do the same.
3) With regards to the Takit music, I found it quite interesting that your FAVORITE SONG was "Don't Stop Speaking God's Word." Perhaps, you don't realize how that song is loaded with twi buzz-speak. Does it have Christian elements in it? Yes. But is it more twi front-loaded than Christian inspiration? Most definitely.
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chockfull
Actually nevermind.
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krys
I like the way skyrider thinks. Who agrees with me?
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Steve Lortz
"Don't stop, never stop, don't stop speaking God's Word, don't stop speaking!"
I loved that song! It rings in my head and heart even as I type!
The only problem is, it was never God's Word that we were speaking. We were speaking Wierwille's words.
I remember inviting Jehovah's Witnesses into our house and trying to enlighten them about "the Mystery". It wasn't until later, after leaving TWI AND CES, and studying things for myself that I realized Wierwille's "Mystery" was a plagiarized hoax.
I remember more than one stretch lasting more than 3 hours going toe to toe, verse to verse with trinitarians, without even thinking about the fact that Jesus is still alive, still head of his body and has allowed the doctrine of the trinity to stand for a good 1500 years or so, when he could have quashed it any time he wanted to. The "Word" we spoke was of Wierwille's "absent Christ".
There were many things about TWI that I loved. Probably the greatest for me was the blue banner I had hanging on the wall in the living room of my home that read "The Word of God is The Will of God". But when I realized I had been unwittingly serving an organization so corrupt that its leaders knowingly countenanced the serial drugging and raping of young women, with NO compunction or remorse, I decided that I would no longer serve that organization in ANY way, and that I should spend at least as much commitment exposing the truth about the poisonous organization as I had spent promoting it.
The Way International was, and STILL IS, a totalitarian organization. It requires a total and CONTINUING commitment from its promoters. It required a total and continuing commitment from ME. A commitment I believed I could make to my Lord Jesus Christ ONLY. It seems to me that the only proper response I can make is to a TOTAL and CONTINUING exposure of The Way International's corruption as long as that organization exists.
Love,
Steve
P.S. - And I agree with krys about skyrider!
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skyrider
Now there is a quantum leap of insinuation.
No, I am not trying to convince "Yours Truly" that the song, Don't Stop Speaking God's Word
has Devil-possessed lyrics............BUT since you, zbrick, brought it up, have you checked this
out according to Scripture?
I see NO REFERENCE to "speaking God's Word."
There ARE references to 1) speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God,
2) speaking boldly in the Lord, 3) speaking by the Spirit of God, 4) speaking
the truth in love, 5) speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.
Don't stop speaking God's Word is twi buzz-speak. Period.
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skyrider
Yeah....teaching truth and exposing their "bait and switch" fraud.
Religion and its practices always hide in the shadows of truth, always mask their intentions,
always provide a caste system of hierarchy, always fleece the underlings.
No surprise here. The gospels are full of accounts where Jesus confronted Pharisee poison.
The apostle Paul encountered religious opposition time and time again. In confronting them,
we are lessening the adulation and cash flow that strengthens their gains. Same deal,
different day.
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krys
I like that line too, Steve. It just never stops!! ha ha
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zbrick
As a point of disclosure here, my personal relationship with the Way Ministry is probably not as involved and intimate as most of the “regulars” here on Grease Spot Café. I was never Way Corps. I was a military WOW, which isn’t quite the same as being a regular WOW. So perhaps if I were a little more involved, I’d be a little more bitter against some of the Way leadership, even to this day. And then when you view someone like John Walsh of America’s Most Wanted , there probably is a very fine line between people who are truly “passionate” about a certain cause, and those who might be “insane”.
I often wondered if I had a close friend or relative who was either killed or maimed in 9/11 or last April’s Boston Marathon bombing, would I HATE and LOATHE the Muslim people right now – not just a handful of radical terrorists – but ALL Muslim people? Yeah, I probably would, maybe out of respect somehow for my friends and relatives. Although I know full well that in the end, all that pent up animosity and bitterness against Muslims ain’t really going to do me much good.
Victor Paul Wierwille, Don Wierwille, and Howard Allen have all gone on – several decades now – to meet God Almighty for their very own Judgment Day. Assuming even a fraction of the stuff said about these “gentlemen” here on GSC is true, then their Judgment Day experiences will be the ONLY glimpses of Heaven these guys will ever have. There’s no doubt in my mind, whatsoever, that God will deal harshly and justly to any false teacher of His Word. God can and will initiate REVENGE against anybody who screwed over His people – Vengeance is Mine, thus saith the Lord. I don’t believe for a second these guys “escaped” anything by dying – if anything, it merely started their eternity in Hell.
Enter L. Craig Martindale, who at last check was living in exile in that “sun and fun capital of the world”, Toledo Ohio. Wow, so I suppose that that’s just a wee bit more exciting than living in New Knoxville Ohio. And what might Martindale be doing these days for “laughs and giggles”??? I heard he was “doubling” his employment opportunities as both a UPS (United Parcel Service) driver, and then working as a fitness consultant at a nearby Bally’s gym. So if that’s true, here you’ve got a guy who, just about 20 years ago was running a multi-million dollar International church organization, and today he’s referred to as a “brownie” driver, and then afterwards, he shows fat, overweight people how to do crunches and squats.
Somebody told me that Martindale is just a mere shell of what he used to be – gee, I never would’ve guessed. Perhaps the more appropriate quote would be from King David, on former King Saul and his son Jonathan – Oh, how the mighty have fallen.
My question here is: If true, don’t you think Martindale has already gotten a little taste of what Hell might be like? Lastly, how does knowing the aforementioned information about Martindale positively enhance anybody’s Eternal Salvation here on Grease Spot Café?
A young lady, who was a Corps grad and involved in Way Productions, told me that it was no accident that the Ministry tapped, “Don’t Stop Speaking God’s Word” by TAKIT, as its marquee song to end, at least a couple, Rock of Ages.
Compare that to: “Rock And Roll All Nite”, by KISS, the beat of these songs, along with the catchy lyrics, prompts people to sing and dance along, even subconsciously. Since TAKIT member Skip Mesquite (who’s now passed on) performed with the popular Rock group, Tower of Power, he understood how to get people hooked on their music.
My friend told me that if secular Rock music uses this type of psychology to influence people to the message of their songs, then why can’t Christian music artists do the same thing? And appropriately so, how could you not leave the Rock of Ages, with listening to: “Don’t Stop Speaking God’s Word” at the very end, and then automatically think to yourself: I’m going to set the Way Ministry record in this next year for running the most PFAL classes – WOOOOO HOOOOOO!!!!!
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WordWolf
No, but I think he's gotten a taste of what punishment is like for his evil deeds.
I don't know if he even understands that he did evil deeds or what they were-
vpw certainly had no true understanding in his heart that what he did was wrong.
He knew OTHERS considered them wrong and hid them, but he convinced himself-
and lcm- that what he was doing was just fine.
If there is any form of literal Hell, then lcm's sins coming back to haunt him
is strictly "amateur hour" by comparison.
It's a non-issue. You seem to be the only one posting who thinks that it's an issue
and relevant to why we discuss what was done and what was happened.
Honestly- people keep posting the answer to Why We Post (to warn others so they can
either heal or avoid twi and its toxic doctrines and conduct),
and you keep completely ignoring the answers and pretending it's all about something
else, or that the posters here are all angry and emotional when posting warnings
and discussing evil deeds when that's usually NOT the case. I suppose that makes it
a LOT easier to dismiss everything we say, which saves you a lot of time even
entertaining whether we bring anything useful to the table.
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skyrider
Why am I not surprised?
1) Not really involved much
2) Never went corps
3) Military WOW -- ie on his own, far away
4) No involvement with twi leadership
5) Fond memories of takit's rock&roll rhythm
Where have I seen these similarities before?
Oh yeah, that other military poster.
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zbrick
It's also interesting that you feel, Eternal Salvation is just a "non-issue", I sure hope you remember that statement come Judgment Day.
But by your very own statement here Wolf dawg, specifically about "…twi and its toxic doctrines…" , so what do YOU have to say about the Trinity??? Founding Way President Victor Paul Wierwille wrote the famous book, "Jesus Christ is NOT God" – Was that the God's honest truth on Dr. Wierwille's part, OR, was that yet another example of what YOU refer to as "toxic doctrine" by the Way Ministry? Most ex-WAYfers, whom I know, still hold onto this as the God's honest truth despite whatever they may think about Dr. Wierwille's morals.
Lastly WordWolf, if you honestly believe in the aforementioned statement, do you physically reside in New Knoxville, Ohio???
The reason I ask that question is because it would truly be a LIE to even insinuate here that Way believers are relative in number to, say, the Mormons or the Jehovah Witnesses in the United States – NOT EVEN CLOSE. I live in southern NH, and prior to '02, I lived in Mass. I've NEVER been approached by anybody asking me if I'd like to go to a "Twig fellowship", OR, take "The Class" . Looking at the official Way Ministry's website, there wasn't even an option to find the nearest Twig fellowship to me – its site really isn't conducive to welcoming more people to join – it's sort of like a church's answer to the Free Masons (or a membership only group). And as I mentioned on another GSC thread fairly recently, it's been AT LEAST 25 years since I've seen a green Way bumper sticker on any vehicle I've encountered. Back in the good old days, I would probably average about one Way bumper sticker per month. Now, they are literally nowhere to be found.
So if you're that committed to these new Way believers, WordWolf dawg, why not go down to New Knoxville and live amongst them??? Why not set the example here, for everybody else to follow?
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Steve Lortz
In some ways, I'm fairly sympathetic to your point of view, zbrick. But you aren't doing yourself any favors by attacking WordWolf in what seems like a mindless antagonism. There are lots of people who disagree with each other here, but the experienced hands have learned how to do it respectfully, without taking personal cheap shots at each other. Raf and I disagree about our conclusions sometimes, but I have utmost respect for his judgment, and recognize that we are coming from different basic assumptions.
Speaking about never stop speaking God's Word, where does all your eternal salvation business come from? The phrase only occurs once in the Bible, in Hebrews 9:5, a section of scripture that Wierwille said is not addressed to the Church in "this wonderful age of grace". The verse doesn't say that eternal salvation is given to everyone on the basis of faith. It says eternal salvation is given to those who OBEY Jesus Christ. So what about Wierwille's eternal salvation? Did Wierwille jeopardize his by drugging and raping innocent sisters in Christ? Are those who still collude with Wierwille jeopardizing their eternal salvation also?
It ain't as simple as Wierwille or his progeny would have it!
Again, I say, I'm fairly sympathetic to your point of view!
Love,
Steve
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zbrick
When I talk about Eternal Salvation, I'm basically referring to eternity in Heaven as opposed to eternity in Hell. More specifically, Romans 10:9.
Secondly, as far as the "Regulars" here on Grease Spot Cafe, you've got basically the same 5-10 folks who ASSUME they're helping people identify "Wolves in Sheep's Clothing" (or just another cheap excuse to publicly trash Way leadership) -- YET, they can't even render a simple answer here on whether the "Trinity" is Biblically accurate or not??? WordWolf even said himself/herself that they help identify all the "toxic doctrine" taught by the Way Ministry. Sure sounds like all these former Way Corps grads don't really know what the heck they're talking about.
But hey, I'll let it go if they don't really want to address my question. No big deal.
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chockfull
What are you on about here? Is that Pentecostal salad bowl haircut you've got restricting blood flow to your brain? Does your regurgitation of 100 decibel guilt sermons have you typing in all caps again? Surely puffing your chest out and starting fights on the internet is the best way to lead people to eternal life.
Or I'll sum it up so that you can understand:
U mad bro?
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chockfull
What do I have to say about the "Trinity"? Not much. It doesn't appear in the Bible. So it's a church relic, like the "Apostle's Creed". Yet Wierwille's handling of Jesus Christ leaves much to be desired, and how he lived his life doesn't line up with someone whose life is built upon a rock. it just doesn't work that way, with all your life fruit showing as crap but you have some enlightened pure doctrine. in reality, the doctrine is as flawed as the life lived spouting it.
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waysider
The Trinity:
That's a subject that is totally irrelevant to this thread. There have been many discussions of the subject over the years. Try using the search function. If you don't find what you are looking for, start a thread in the doctrinal forum.
Toxic doctrine:
Perhaps the most toxic of all is the so-called "law of believing". Again, it's not really relative in a direct sense to this particular thread. Indirectly, I suppose, one might squeeze it in as a factor of "life in neverland". Throw in some dispensationalism, guilt and absence of remorse and you've got enough toxic doctrine to kill a horse.
Incidentally, you do know he wasn't really a "Dr.", don't you?
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Steve Lortz
Like I said, I think I'm fairly sympathetic to your point of view, but I don't understand your seemingly unwarranted antagonism to the people who post here.
Considering the subject of "toxic doctrine", do you have any idea what you are really talking about? The Christological disagreements of the early Church were settled by the time of the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD. The result was what is popularly called the doctrine of the Trinity, but it's not what people think it is. It is that Jesus Christ has two natures, he is both fully human and fully divine. Do we understand that now the same way they understood it 1,562 years ago? No, we certainly do not! I'm inclined to believe the dyophysite feature of the trinity resides in the gift of the Holy Spirit rather than in the man Christ Jesus. Do you think the Lord Jesus Christ is the active head of his body? If so, then Jesus could have negated the doctrine of the Trinity ANY TIME HE WANTED TO during the last 15 hundred and sixty-two years. But he hasn't. Jesus can work far better with people who accept some form of trinitarian belief than he can with people who teach that he is absent, and then usurp his position in the minds of their followers, the way Wierwille did.
And what do you mean about "eternity" in Heaven or Hell? Romans 10:9&10 don't say ANYTHING about Heaven or Hell OR eternity. It says that people will be "saved", period. If you want to know what Paul meant by that, you have to go to Luke 18:18-30. "Eternal salvation", the phrase in Hebrews 5:9 is soterias aioniou in the Greek, which means "salvation belonging to the age" in reference to "the age to come" rather than belonging to what Paul calls "this present evil age" in Galatians 1:4. To receive "eternal life" means to receive the Spirit of resurrection life in the age to come", and the gift of the Holy Spirit received by Christians since the day of Pentecost is the earnest that we will receive the Spirit of resurrection life when Jesus returns.
I've been doing my homework, zbrick, as well as exposing the toxic doctrine propagated by Wierwille and his progeny.
So, I don't understand, why do you have such a burr under your tail?
Love,
Steve
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
zbrick, wow(and I don't mean Word over the World), you still run PFAL classes? In addition to my Lutheran congregation, I host an organic church, egalitarian/equalist which has no offices or titles, and I run Alpha, Open Home/Open Bible, 8 Searching Issues, Purpose Driven Life, Foundations, Christian Believer, Beginings series, Christianity Explored, Discipleship Explored, Reality, Walk the Talk, Life Worth Living, Jesus Lifestyle, Power Surge, Christian Life and Witness, and Beta video classes for free and meals/snacks/refreshments lasting less than 2 hours usually and with small group discussion after the presentation. Far better than Power For Abundant Living/Way of Abundance and Power. I feel sorry for you. btw, read Frank Viola and Leonard Sweet's Jesus: a Theography, much better than Jesus Christ is not God or One God and One Lord from Spirit and Truth Fellowship.
by the way(pun intended) is Martindale Peter Pan, Wierwille Captain Hook, and Rivenbark Tinkerbell? :biglaugh:/> guess that makes us Smee and the Lost Boys
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bliss
If it wasn't for the ''regulars'' posting here at GSC, oh about 9 years ago now.. (holy crap!!!!!) Um, I might still be a slave to the bondage of TWI abusive system of religion.
They helped me take off my ''green colored glasses''.
Case in point: I STILL have relatives in TWI.
In which one told me recently of past ATROCITY that happened to her....and her only response was to ignore it and move on. It doesn't matter how much I say about the abuses and how wrong it is, she is under dilusion. Comfortable. Not ready to leave the confines of her religion. Not wanting to upset the apple cart. BUT, if and when she is ready, I hope she can come here to find answers.
She also said "Rosalie is an old lady, what harm can she do?"
oh my.
Go to the doctrinal section if you want to 'research' the Trinity respectfully on here Zbrick, otherwise, let those who are here, help those searching for a WAY out.
Peace
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WordWolf
Is that what I actually said? Let's see....
So, you asked about how knowing lcm was working at UPS
or whatever enhanced anyone's eternal salvation.
It was a stupid question, so I said so in a nicer way.
lcm's job at UPS is a non-issue cocnerning people's eternal salvation.
DUUUUUHHH.
I can't tell if you're legitimately that slow, but you seem fairly able
to communicate properly, so it seems you're doing that DELIBERATELY.
In discussions about lcm's job, discussing eternal salvation of complete
strangers to him is a non-issue and off-topic.
In discussions about eternal salvation, discussion lcm working at UPS
is a non-issue and off-topic.
But, then, you brought up BOTH on a thread about NEITHER and blamed me
for them being non-issues.
I really was willing to let it go, and be the adult and leave you alone
about your foolishness.
What we saw before:
Ralph D, once upon a time, reported about a number of incidents-
which we have documentation on this website which people can read,
and have discussed in detail, which he has even discussed here-
and you mistakenly conflated them into ONE incident.
Then you reported that "Passing of the Patriarch" was about something it
had nothing to do with, because you didn't know any better.
Someone corrected you. You got hostile and insisted you were correct.
People linked you to the document so you can read it yourself-
instead of being someone who never read a document who was telling people
who read it what it said-and getting it all wrong.
You refused, and we dropped it.
I figured you'd later read the thing and were embarassed you had been so
incorrect and yet so strident about it and being wrong, that you
would rather just never mention it again than admit you'd made such an
elementary mistake. Being an adult, I was willing to just let that go.
I was wrong about that-I thought too much of you.
Apparently, you still haven't read it, and instead of the fault being
yours for misunderstanding something,
the fault is ours for pointing out you made a big mistake.
THIS is why we post.
We keep saying that.
You keep missing that.
Why bother coming here when it so offends your sensibilities?
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