I just think it odd how serious, or how real, those terms were used. Stick, Twig, Limb, Leaf(rarely) etc. It's a labeling of a person/group within or previously within the organization. Is that what they really are?
Much like how people would describe devil spirits they'd seen. Is that what they really saw? . . . . Or The "Law of Believing" is sometimes referred to as "magical thinking". A person drives their mind to change their perception reality.
The Way Tree terminology - the purpose - to distort the fact in people's minds that TWI is an organization?
I just think it odd how serious, or how real, those terms were used. Stick, Twig, Limb, Leaf(rarely) etc. It's a labeling of a person/group within or previously within the organization. Is that what they really are?
Much like how people would describe devil spirits they'd seen. Is that what they really saw? . . . . Or The "Law of Believing" is sometimes referred to as "magical thinking". A person drives their mind to change their perception reality.
The Way Tree terminology - the purpose - to distort the fact in people's minds that TWI is an organization?
Multiple issues involved in that set of comments.
I understand such things as the list of what you referred to as "Way Tree terminology" as metaphors. Dumb metaphors, as I see it now, but metaphors nevertheless.
It's just a way to understand the organization. Not necessarily good or bad, just something to help people understand how twi saw itself.
"Magical thinking" involves plenty more than just the law of believing. One example: thinking that something you observed happen but weren't necessarily expecting or praying for was done by God for your benefit. That's completely outside of you and your prayer life. Oh, that must have happened because God wanted me to __________.
Of course, that does encompass people changing their perception of reality, or perhaps changing how they define the purpose of anything that happens.
Btw, I don't recall ever having heard the expression "stick fellowship" before reading this thread. But then again, I left twi about 30 years ago.
Btw, I don't recall ever having heard the expression "stick fellowship" before reading this thread. But then again, I left twi about 30 years ago.
Likely started during or post-fog then. Stick Fellowships operate like twigs but are no longer attached to the Tree, so they don't get the nourishment from the root and they die blah blah you get picture.
The way people refer to each other with those terms . . . maybe I don't describe it well enough here . . . that's what gets my attention.
Btw, I don't recall ever having heard the expression "stick fellowship" before reading this thread. But then again, I left twi about 30 years ago.
Nor had I.
Multiple issues involved in that set of comments.
I understand such things as the list of what you referred to as "Way Tree terminology" as metaphors. Dumb metaphors, as I see it now, but metaphors nevertheless.
It's just a way to understand the organization. Not necessarily good or bad, just something to help people understand how twi saw itself.
Actually, I've come to the point of seeing it as much more than that. Does the basic design of "the Way Tree" have any biblical basis for it? Like many others, I used to think it did. Then, (not so long ago) not so much. But more recently, yeah, maybe it does... but definitely not in the way I used to think, nor in accordance with what Paul reveals concerning the body of Christ.
I'm actually inclined to think that with how legalistic the church at Jerusalem is said to have been, it may very well have developed a somewhat similar structure. What might they have patterned it after? Perhaps after how the Jewish religion may have operated, given its system of priests and its many synagogues spread around the world.
But the Way Tree very quickly developed a life of its own, and an all too powerful means of control and financial gain.
"Magical thinking" involves plenty more than just the law of believing. One example: thinking that something you observed happen but weren't necessarily expecting or praying for was done by God for your benefit. That's completely outside of you and your prayer life. Oh, that must have happened because God wanted me to __________.
Of course, that does encompass people changing their perception of reality, or perhaps changing how they define the purpose of anything that happens.
Regardless of whether it's called or thought of as "magical thinking" or a "law," there is a latent power resident within how anyone disciplines their mind to think. And yes, it certainly can change what our perception of reality is (or isn't.)
"Regardless of whether it's called or thought of as "magical thinking" or a "law," there is a latent power resident within how anyone disciplines their mind to think. And yes, it certainly can change what our perception of reality is (or isn't.)"
Perception of reality, yes. Reality, no.
Regardless of how successful and popular this concept has become, the fact remains that you can't change the physical world around you one whit with the thoughts inside your mind, whether positive or negative.
edit: Off-Topic, though. Perhaps refer to one of the many discussions of the subject we have had here.
Regardless of whether it's called or thought of as "magical thinking" or a "law," there is a latent power resident within how anyone disciplines their mind to think. And yes, it certainly can change what our perception of reality is (or isn't.)
(But this is also properly noted as being different than prayer.)
I've also heard it called "ego inflation". And it is still an interesting topic to re-visit, addressing where it's power really lies, IMO.
Wayfers have their own reality, which I think you have to keep in mind when communicating with them. I brought up the spirit realm and believing as examples of how Waybrain minds see things others don't.
Sticks and Waytree terminology are telling as to how Wayfers perceive the world and themselves. IMO. I was reminded of the "sticks" experiences and wanted to focus on that on this thread.
"Regardless of whether it's called or thought of as "magical thinking" or a "law," there is a latent power resident within how anyone disciplines their mind to think. And yes, it certainly can change what our perception of reality is (or isn't.)"
Perception of reality, yes. Reality, no.
Regardless of how successful and popular this concept has become, the fact remains that you can't change the physical world around you one whit with the thoughts inside your mind, whether positive or negative.
edit: Off-Topic, though. Perhaps refer to one of the many discussions of the subject we have had here.
Likely started during or post-fog then. Stick Fellowships operate like twigs but are no longer attached to the Tree, so they don't get the nourishment from the root and they die blah blah you get picture.
The way people refer to each other with those terms . . . maybe I don't describe it well enough here . . . that's what gets my attention.
and, of course, "stick" fellowships didn't contribute to the coffers of the vile root.
Thanks for this history update, Bolshevik. :)
Care to start another thread to explain?
Well, I don't know anything about the connection with quantum physics, but in case others would like to explore the concept of "magical thinking" I will be happy to start another thread.
From twi's beginning, the issue of people leaving has always existed.
And, in private, vpw had used a "swear loyalty to me or leave" tactic on the Corps
a few times. (ONLY on people primed to be loyal like resident Corps.)
vpw KNEW he was a fraud, and had convinced lcm that he was the real deal.
So, vpw could talk a good show in public, then lie in private and make it sound pious,
knowing he was lying. (God wants you to bless me with extra-marital sex...)
After vpw died, lcm was faced with some of vpw's dirty secrets coming out
(he told women to have sex with him, his "revelations" were plagiarism...)
lcm wandered confused for a few years, and things at the local levels ran FINE.
Then lcm decided to demand that EVERYONE swear loyalty to him or else.
The result, especially at that time, meant that 80% of twi present either were fired
or left voluntarily, many alongside those who were fired. There were now more people
leaving twi at once than remaining in twi. Since some areas had ALL their leadership
(or nearly all) leave together, they were able to remain together and just change the
name on the stationery and a few physical details, and keep the weekly meetings happening.
Instead of national news, they got news from the "region" or state as the top dogs.
So, twi had to call all those people who were still doing the same thing but without their
logos. The popular term for the people was "cop-outs." But it was the GROUPS that were a
threat to twi. If people could leave twi for "almost-twi", then threats to kick them out
were nullified. So. names like "stick fellowship" were needed, with stories about how
they were inferior because they weren't reporting to the farm.
This is a great synopsis. Thank you WW.
My memories are mostly post-fog. Cop-out, stick, Geer, fog were always part of the conversations. (I was just listening . . . my duty was to hush).
People were always leaving through my whole experience, until of course I left. Like Game of Thrones, don't get attached to anyone.
Losing people just added something to talk about. I felt that people in TWI had the idea that anyone who stayed in The Ministry until death got more rewards at the Bema. If people left, that just means you get a greater cut of the spiritual rewards later, because they lost out by walking away.
Witnessing . . . it wasn't about bringing in new people in . . . it was about spiritually keeping the Adversary at bay. Speaking the Word has power. The Adversary had to move his minions to counter it . . . that's how we stood to protect The Ministry . . . spiritual diversion tactics.
At the same time, people are not coming in, classes were still demanded. They had to pick on somebody. Guess who?
TWI is an organization turned inward on itself, IMO. As far as my memory serves, it always was.
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Raf
I thought Sticks were Twigs that were no longer loyal to Martindale & Co.
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WordWolf
STILL sounds like it.
They were "out in left field", which is martindale-speak for "in error" or "confused"
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Bolshevik
I just think it odd how serious, or how real, those terms were used. Stick, Twig, Limb, Leaf(rarely) etc. It's a labeling of a person/group within or previously within the organization. Is that what they really are?
Much like how people would describe devil spirits they'd seen. Is that what they really saw? . . . . Or The "Law of Believing" is sometimes referred to as "magical thinking". A person drives their mind to change their perception reality.
The Way Tree terminology - the purpose - to distort the fact in people's minds that TWI is an organization?
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waysider
"The Way Tree terminology - the purpose - to distort the fact in people's minds that TWI is an organization?"
I'm picturing this as a scene from "Pinky And The Brain".
Brain: Are you thinking what I'm thinking, Pinky?
Pinky: Well, I think so, Brain, but if they called it a structured hierarchy, who'd show up to sing Little Bunny Foo Foo?
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Rocky
Clever.
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Rocky
Multiple issues involved in that set of comments.
I understand such things as the list of what you referred to as "Way Tree terminology" as metaphors. Dumb metaphors, as I see it now, but metaphors nevertheless.
It's just a way to understand the organization. Not necessarily good or bad, just something to help people understand how twi saw itself.
"Magical thinking" involves plenty more than just the law of believing. One example: thinking that something you observed happen but weren't necessarily expecting or praying for was done by God for your benefit. That's completely outside of you and your prayer life. Oh, that must have happened because God wanted me to __________.
Of course, that does encompass people changing their perception of reality, or perhaps changing how they define the purpose of anything that happens.
Btw, I don't recall ever having heard the expression "stick fellowship" before reading this thread. But then again, I left twi about 30 years ago.
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Bolshevik
Likely started during or post-fog then. Stick Fellowships operate like twigs but are no longer attached to the Tree, so they don't get the nourishment from the root and they die blah blah you get picture.
The way people refer to each other with those terms . . . maybe I don't describe it well enough here . . . that's what gets my attention.
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waysider
It's de-humanizing. That makes it easier to accept.
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Bolshevik
It is de-humanizing. It is indeed.
And a nicer-sounding term than was usually given to folks who leave or were not involved with TWI proper.
(It may have discouraged those still in from thinking of offshoots as alternatives as well.)
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TLC
Nor had I.
Actually, I've come to the point of seeing it as much more than that. Does the basic design of "the Way Tree" have any biblical basis for it? Like many others, I used to think it did. Then, (not so long ago) not so much. But more recently, yeah, maybe it does... but definitely not in the way I used to think, nor in accordance with what Paul reveals concerning the body of Christ.
I'm actually inclined to think that with how legalistic the church at Jerusalem is said to have been, it may very well have developed a somewhat similar structure. What might they have patterned it after? Perhaps after how the Jewish religion may have operated, given its system of priests and its many synagogues spread around the world.
But the Way Tree very quickly developed a life of its own, and an all too powerful means of control and financial gain.
Regardless of whether it's called or thought of as "magical thinking" or a "law," there is a latent power resident within how anyone disciplines their mind to think. And yes, it certainly can change what our perception of reality is (or isn't.)
http://www.amazon.com/The-Magic-Thinking-David-Schwartz/dp/0671646788
(But this is also properly noted as being different than prayer.)
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waysider
"Regardless of whether it's called or thought of as "magical thinking" or a "law," there is a latent power resident within how anyone disciplines their mind to think. And yes, it certainly can change what our perception of reality is (or isn't.)"
Perception of reality, yes. Reality, no.
Regardless of how successful and popular this concept has become, the fact remains that you can't change the physical world around you one whit with the thoughts inside your mind, whether positive or negative.
edit: Off-Topic, though. Perhaps refer to one of the many discussions of the subject we have had here.
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Bolshevik
I've also heard it called "ego inflation". And it is still an interesting topic to re-visit, addressing where it's power really lies, IMO.
Wayfers have their own reality, which I think you have to keep in mind when communicating with them. I brought up the spirit realm and believing as examples of how Waybrain minds see things others don't.
Sticks and Waytree terminology are telling as to how Wayfers perceive the world and themselves. IMO. I was reminded of the "sticks" experiences and wanted to focus on that on this thread.
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waysider
I remember fellowships that fit this description but don't remember ever hearing this terminology. Not much more I can add to the conversation.
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TLC
Quantum physics might disagree with you.
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waysider
Care to start another thread to explain?
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Bolshevik
Oh dear, we've reached an excited state of being.
I appreciate your and everyone's input on this thread, Waysider.
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waysider
You were probably believing this would happen..... you sly rascal, you.
edit: Removed the negative connotation involved with "probably".
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TLC
Not "particular"ly.
(yuk, yuk...)
I'm not a physicist, and probably way under qualified to do much explaining of it.
(But I was sorta curious what DWBH might have to say in response to my inquiry over in this thread.)
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Rocky
and, of course, "stick" fellowships didn't contribute to the coffers of the vile root.
Thanks for this history update, Bolshevik. :)
Well, I don't know anything about the connection with quantum physics, but in case others would like to explore the concept of "magical thinking" I will be happy to start another thread.
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WordWolf
From twi's beginning, the issue of people leaving has always existed.
And, in private, vpw had used a "swear loyalty to me or leave" tactic on the Corps
a few times. (ONLY on people primed to be loyal like resident Corps.)
vpw KNEW he was a fraud, and had convinced lcm that he was the real deal.
So, vpw could talk a good show in public, then lie in private and make it sound pious,
knowing he was lying. (God wants you to bless me with extra-marital sex...)
After vpw died, lcm was faced with some of vpw's dirty secrets coming out
(he told women to have sex with him, his "revelations" were plagiarism...)
lcm wandered confused for a few years, and things at the local levels ran FINE.
Then lcm decided to demand that EVERYONE swear loyalty to him or else.
The result, especially at that time, meant that 80% of twi present either were fired
or left voluntarily, many alongside those who were fired. There were now more people
leaving twi at once than remaining in twi. Since some areas had ALL their leadership
(or nearly all) leave together, they were able to remain together and just change the
name on the stationery and a few physical details, and keep the weekly meetings happening.
Instead of national news, they got news from the "region" or state as the top dogs.
So, twi had to call all those people who were still doing the same thing but without their
logos. The popular term for the people was "cop-outs." But it was the GROUPS that were a
threat to twi. If people could leave twi for "almost-twi", then threats to kick them out
were nullified. So. names like "stick fellowship" were needed, with stories about how
they were inferior because they weren't reporting to the farm.
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Bolshevik
This is a great synopsis. Thank you WW.
My memories are mostly post-fog. Cop-out, stick, Geer, fog were always part of the conversations. (I was just listening . . . my duty was to hush).
People were always leaving through my whole experience, until of course I left. Like Game of Thrones, don't get attached to anyone.
Losing people just added something to talk about. I felt that people in TWI had the idea that anyone who stayed in The Ministry until death got more rewards at the Bema. If people left, that just means you get a greater cut of the spiritual rewards later, because they lost out by walking away.
Witnessing . . . it wasn't about bringing in new people in . . . it was about spiritually keeping the Adversary at bay. Speaking the Word has power. The Adversary had to move his minions to counter it . . . that's how we stood to protect The Ministry . . . spiritual diversion tactics.
At the same time, people are not coming in, classes were still demanded. They had to pick on somebody. Guess who?
TWI is an organization turned inward on itself, IMO. As far as my memory serves, it always was.
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shortfuse
This thread triggered some Way Productions related PTSD. I hope you can hear Mike Martins voice in the following lines too:
"I'm tapped in tight
right to the root
you can tell that I am
'cause I bare much fruit?"
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Bolshevik
Breathe, MM, breathe!
Subliminal messaging at its most pathetic. Bringing every thought Captive. And water-boarded.
(If you start humming to Trdy, DO seek counseling.)
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shortfuse
Damn it, man!
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