I think Exodus 31:13 may give an indication of who is obliged to keep the sabbath "For I (God) give unto you (Israel) the sabbath, to keep forever (Age lasting) you and your generations." ... this will probs get moved to the doctrinal discussion Waxit :)
Oh goodness, 34 pages. Can you summarise a little, Waxit?
5 hours ago, Allan said:
For I (God) give unto you (Israel) the sabbath
So some might say, does that refer to the then Israel, or to the "spiritual Israel" meaning all believers now?
You need to look at (if you don't mind the expression) The "heart behind it." Work six days, have a rest and spend time with your family. God knows it's important to have periodic rests. He also knows it's important to keep family structures together (heck, he invented "family") and all hanging out together, eating together, is important for family cohesion and family values (one of which would be respecting the Lord).
Equally, however, there are some that did not "keep the Sabbath" on the "Sabbath day." These would include those working in the temple - all the Levites and other officials. We don't know when their "day of rest" would be; perhaps the day before, though that's off topic here.
Exodus 31:
12 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
13" Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant."[/end quote/]
And don't forget this, either, from Matthew 12:1-14:
At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.[/end quote/]
You can see that Jesus always kept the law - but he didn't always keep the Sabbath.
Sorry, the Quote bit went wrong for me - again. But you can figure out what's what, I'm sure.
Good points Waxit and Twinky...Someone once said "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath" I tend towards the Israelites being such hardworkers and 'money and success driven' that the sabbath was given to them to remember and honour who their sufficiency was ! As born again Christians we know (ought to) WHO our sufficiency is and can worship and praise Him in spirit and in truth 24/7...Interesting that Isaiah 28:11,12 is quoted by Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:21 "The rest wherewith He (God) causes the weary to rest" referring to s.i.t.
I work hard, and it's quite physical at times. Generally, I don't do any work on Sunday (unless I have to care for someone, visit and help them in their home). I go to my lovely "community" church and am welcomed by friends. There's so much hanging around both before and after the service! Maybe have lunch with a friend at their house. Then, I maybe go for a long walk and enjoy the freedom of it and relish God's beauty in the fields and wildlife around me. Or I tend my own garden and again, relish God's beauty and ability to provide. Maybe (though not lately nor foreseeably) I visit my Mum.
If I don't have this time to rest, the following week is much harder, more tiring.
People: take time to breathe. Time to smell the roses. Time to appreciate God's beauty in all the things around you. In the people around you. You need a rest.
One of the things we should remember is that when God got around to fashioning our world, he did things - from rest to rest.
And the evening and the morning were the first/second/… day.
Your day starts from rest (sunset the day before, reset through the night, work through the day, then returns to rest in the evening. Too often we think our day starts when we get up. It doesn't it starts earlier than that: when you rest.
And your working week also starts from that position of rest: a time to relax, unwind, enjoy God, breathe, before a full-on week … then rest again.
I think Exodus 31:13 may give an indication of who is obliged to keep the sabbath "For I (God) give unto you (Israel) the sabbath, to keep forever (Age lasting) you and your generations." ... this will probs get moved to the doctrinal discussion Waxit :)
Twinky brought out a good point about physical Israel and spiritual Israel
Alan, It doesnt mean that just because "God gave the sabbath to children of Israel (physical descendants of Abraham)
that the sabbath doesnt apply to children of God (born again christians through the acceptance
and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Born again christians are the spiritual Israel (born again christians who love God and will obey all
God's commandments including all the 10 commandments
Bear in mind the importance between the physical -fleshly nature of physical israel and the spiritual nature of born again
Christians who believe and obey all the commandments of God
Why is it important to obey all the commandments of God (including the 7th day sabbath) as the Israel of God (spiritual Israel)
James 2:10 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
physical Israel to whom the 10 commandments were given to by God through Moses represent the stock of Abraham's physical descendants
If you say Allan,that according to your interpretation of Ex 31:13- you are not obliged to keep the sabbath -it applies to the nation of Israel of that era
It's like saying - Moses presented and spoke the 10 commandments to the children of Israel- He didnt speak to me personally so it doesn't apply to me.
So folowing that logic, you can steal, you can lie and you can commit adultery because the 10 commandments was not spoken to you
directly or addressed to you personally so it doesnt apply to you. I am sure you know that's absurd
The truth is the children of God (born again christians) are the spiritual Israel who have a greater responsibility than physical Israel (direct descendants
of Abraham). Dont look at the sabbath as a burden or an inconvenience- if you do then you will be missing the point and be constantly finding an excuse
People say that the love of God is the greatest commandment and that's all that matters.
Ok! let's see what God specifies as "the love of God"
1 John 5:3King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandmentsss(plural-includes the 4th commandment- 7th day sabbath)
and his commandments are not grievous.
Let's look at what constitutes physical Israel and spiritual Israel and why spiritual Israel who enjoy the greatest blessing have
the greater responsibilty in keeping the 7th day (sabbath) not 1st day of the week (sunday)
Physical Israel (descendants of Abraham by physical birth)
Genesis 28
13 And, behold, theLordstood above it, and said, I am theLordGod of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac:
the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east,
and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Dust represents the physical nature of the israelitish generations - it is the physical multiplication of the seed of
Abraham through normal physical birth. It does not require believing faith to be born into the lineage of Abraham" spiritual
seed. Esau was a direct physical descendant of Abrahm through Issac but missed out on the blessings big time.
Why? because he was ignorant and didnt care
Being of the stock of Abraham like the pharisees who said we have Abraham for our father doesnt mean they will believe
all the commandments of God by faith like Abraham and that's why Jesus Christ emphasisized the spiritual nature of Abraham.
Genesis 15:
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children (spiritual Israel
who believe in faith and obey), ye would do the works of Abraham.
What were the works of abraham? He believed God and obeyed even to the point where he was willing to offer Issac as a sacrifice
Pharisees and religious people frequently bring in their own traditions (carnal flesh) and will oppose the commandments of God (spiritual)
Spiritual Israel (descendants of Abraham by spiritual birth)
Genesis 15
2 And Abram said,LordGod, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of theLordcame unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be (spiritual seed)
6 And he believed in theLord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Notice physical israel is compared to dust- earthy- physical while spiritual Israel is represented as "the stars of heaven"- heavenly- kingdom of God-spiritual
If we are truly born again christians by spiritual birth then we will toss aside man's traditions and believe and
obey what God's word says. The devil knows if you keep obeying Man made traditions (sunday keeping) as opposed to sabbath keeping (7th day-Saturday)
just on this point (James 2:10) then he will have great joy in knowing that you will miss out like Esau- ahh! what does it matter.
Esau cried afterwards but did he repent. Noooo!
We will not make excuses or find something that vaguely on the surface seemingly justifies our
excuse which is what vw did with "one day esteemeth one day above another" so you can keep sunday (1st day of the week)- it doesnt matter
who cares if God commanded the 7th day sabbath. I am sure people dont do this deliberately but ignorance is no excuse.
We have the divinely inspired word of God right in front of us to guide us.
Note the second part of Ex 31:13- it states that the sabbath is applicable to "you and your generations.
The true believers to day are the spiritual Israel - they are the extensions of generations of the seed of Abraham who believe and obey
(repented born again Christians by spiritual birth)
If you read the whole of Galatians 3, you will understand that born again believers in Christ are the spiritual Israel -
Spiritual Israel are believe who believe by faith the promises of God and demonstrate that by obeying the commandments of God
Remember Abraham believed and it was accounted to him for righteousness
Galatians 3: 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 2:
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; (one who believes and obeys like Abraham)
and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit (God's word and His commandments) , and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Galatians 6: 8
8 For he that soweth to his flesh (mans traditions and works of the flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;
but he that soweth to the Spirit (word of God and the commandments of God)
shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Galatians 6:16 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God
(spiritual Israel)
Jesus Christ said in John 6:63 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh (mans traditions) profiteth nothing: the words (the word of God in the bible)
that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (spiritual Israel- born again in Christ- who believe and obey)
Though christians do believe and keep the greatest commandment- Love God with all your heart.....
they ignore the 7th day sabbath - the 4th commandment of God and therfore disqualify themselves
How do i know this?
1 John 5: 1-3
5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandmentssss (plural- all of God's word) and commandments:
and his commandments are not grievous.
What is considered the first day of the week? Is it Monday or Sunday? As far as actual work in the United States and globally, Monday is considered the first day of the week regarding work. And then Sunday is the main day off with regard to work with our seven day weeks that are part of our calendars. Although grocery stores are still open even on Sunday so that people can go there to buy food to eat.
Regarding comments, I think Twinky has made some good points here. And because of what we have today spiritually through Jesus Christ, making Sunday or Saturday a special spiritual day is insignificant to me. Through Jesus Christ, and God's gift of the Holy Spirit, every day can be spiritual to us. The question to me is are we getting enough sleep at night? We need sleep at least once a day to energize our lives because of our mortal in flesh human bodies. In the future when we get our Christ like spiritual bodies we may not need sleep then.
What is considered the first day of the week? Is it Monday or Sunday? As far as actual work in the United States and globally, Monday is considered the first day of the week regarding work. And then Sunday is the main day off with regard to work with our seven day weeks that are part of our calendars. Although grocery stores are still open even on Sunday so that people can go there to buy food to eat.
Regarding comments, I think Twinky has made some good points here. And because of what we have today spiritually through Jesus Christ, making Sunday or Saturday a special spiritual day is insignificant to me. Through Jesus Christ, and God's gift of the Holy Spirit, every day can be spiritual to us. The question to me is are we getting enough sleep at night? We need sleep at least once a day to energize our lives because of our mortal in flesh human bodies. In the future when we get our Christ like spiritual bodies we may not need sleep then.
Hi Mark
Please understand that you cannot be considered spiritual and in favour with God if you disrespect and consider insignificant what God has ordained as a significant day for rest and worship and fellowship (Sabbath)
Saturday is universally recognised as the seventh day of the week. Sunday is recognised as the first day of the week.
Dont you think what is important to Jesus Christ (Lord of Sabbath ) should be of utmost importance to you if you want Him to grant you
a new spiritual body. Like you want His blessings but you disrect His 4th commandent (in the 10 commandments) - that doesn't make sense???
Trust me you have to change your attitude to one of meekness and obedience like Moses
and become humble to God's word if you want his blessings.
It's not what you think is important or what i think is important but what God thinks is important.
If you consider yourself to be a true christian, then you must enquire- what God wants (its always the best for you and me )
and obey God's word as He clearly shows in the bible.
Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all
readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
vw showed us this scripture but loaded us with a lot of cr_p
Everday can be a spiritual day for you and me but there is a specific day that He has set aside for you and me as a sabbath
so we will be rested and free of work distrctions
(day of rest and fellowship with Him and with believers.
God specifically set aside Saturday (the seventh day) as a day of rest and worship and fellowship in the heanvens
right from the beginning when he began the work of creation
Gen 2:2-3
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it (set aside): because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
and subsequentially
confirmed it in writing (the finger of God) when He gave Moses the 10 commandments of God engraved in stone tablets
Exodus 20: 8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of theLordthy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days theLordmade heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore theLordblessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Mark which part of the above verses in the word of God, don't you understand?
Mark which part of the above verses in the word of God, don't you understand?
Am I understanding your intent Waxit to be that if anyone disagrees with your understanding, they somehow aren't "in fellowship" with God? Or some variation on that theme?
Or perhaps you meant to ask which part of any of them does anyone understand differently than you?
Hi Mark
Please understand that you cannot be considered spiritual and in favour with God if you disrespect and consider insignificant what God has ordained as a significant day for rest and worship and fellowship (Sabbath)
Saturday is universally recognised as the seventh day of the week. Sunday is recognised as the first day of the week.
Dont you think what is important to Jesus Christ (Lord of Sabbath ) should be of utmost importance to you if you want Him to grant you
a new spiritual body. Like you want His blessings but you disrect His 4th commandent (in the 10 commandments) - that doesn't make sense???
Trust me you have to change your attitude to one of meekness and obedience like Moses
and become humble to God's word if you want his blessings.
It's not what you think is important or what i think is important but what God thinks is important.
If you consider yourself to be a true christian, then you must enquire- what God wants (its always the best for you and me )
and obey God's word as He clearly shows in the bible.
Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all
readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
vw showed us this scripture but loaded us with a lot of cr_p
Everday can be a spiritual day for you and me but there is a specific day that He has set aside for you and me as a sabbath
so we will be rested and free of work distrctions
(day of rest and fellowship with Him and with believers.
God specifically set aside Saturday (the seventh day) as a day of rest and worship and fellowship in the heanvens
right from the beginning when he began the work of creation
Gen 2:2-3
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it (set aside): because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
and subsequentially
confirmed it in writing (the finger of God) when He gave Moses the 10 commandments of God engraved in stone tablets
Exodus 20: 8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of theLordthy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days theLordmade heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore theLordblessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Mark which part of the above verses in the word of God, don't you understand?
"Trust me you have to change your attitude to one of meekness and obedience like Moses
and become humble to God's word if you want his blessings."
What about Matthew 5:44-45?
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,45 that you may be childrenof your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Trust me, Waxit, you may or may not have the final word on what pleases God and what doesn't.
"Trust me you have to change your attitude to one of meekness and obedience like Moses
and become humble to God's word if you want his blessings."
What about Matthew 5:44-45?
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,45 that you may be childrenof your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Trust me, Waxit, you may or may not have the final word on what pleases God and what doesn't.
Rocky, first of all Mark is not my enemy and secondly I definitely do not have the final word on what pleases God. Only the Lord Jesus Christ will judge rigteously in the end
Only God knows who will and who will not enter the kingdom of God.
I dont know whether you give a hoot about the sabbath which is a really important topic
but instead you are picking to comment on something that you should think about before you tap on the keyboard
To be honest, I did not want to comment to Mark's reply because I thought he might be in the twilight zone
but i thought wait a minute, he needs to be shown so he can think along the correct lines outlined in the word of God
So this is actually loving the person enough to show him and not ignore someone. It was not delivered with hatred but love
It's great that you are sticking up for Mark but it's unwarranted and it's not thought through and hence the knee jerk reaction
Someone who is quick to jump the gun in defence saying Haannm! Who do you think are?
My reply to Mark is one of those cases akin to someone observing the tell tale signs of what a person is saying
and making an accurate assesment of what's going to happen to him which is in line with the manual (the word of God).
If you want to make an accurate assesment on how a car will function, you will read the car manual
If you dont like the sound your refrigerator is making, you will read the refigerator manual
So the same thing with spiritual things, you go to the bible
This is why God gave us His word so we can learn from examples in the word like Moses and see what pleases
God and to make sure we are on the right track spiritually (rightly dividing the word)
It's a bit ridiculous for you to comment on my reply to Mark and say- "I may or may not have the final word on what pleases God"
because you are assuming I am being a judge and I am not the judge- just pointing out what pleases God coming from the divinely
inspired word of God aka the bible
Why do you think God;s word written so it will remain a complete
mystery!!!!!!!and becausee God wants us confused all our lives!!!!!!!!! as to what pleases Him
No! definitely not
Thanks for quoting Mark 5:44-45 but it's unwarranted and out of context because
Mark is not my enemy, just someone who needs to be shown from the bible the error
behind his own opinionated thinking so if he decides to change his thinking,
he can be on the right track spiritually not according to what I think
but according to what God is looking for so God can shower His blessings on Mark
Biblical Definition of Meeness:: Meekness is an attribute of human nature and behavior. It has been definedseveral ways:
righteous, humble, teachable, and patient under suffering, long suffering willing to follow gospel teachings; an attribute of a true disciple
Psalm 25:
9 The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
10 All the paths of theLordare mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenantand his testimonies.
Am I understanding your intent Waxit to be that if anyone disagrees with your understanding, they somehow aren't "in fellowship" with God? Or some variation on that theme?
Or perhaps you meant to ask which part of any of them does anyone understand differently than you?
People may agree or disagree with me-that's a fact of life- I am not saying that I have all the answers and that everyone should follow me
That's not my intent- not at all
I meant to ask which part of my statement, someone is having difficulty understanding
At the end of the day- there are some people who genuinely have a difficulty understanding
for some reason and these are people that I can discuss further
But there will also be people who will refuse to understand by holding to something that is clearly
a contradiction of the word of God
and I can still love them and pray for them but i wont waste my time discussing further with them
God words is such that when you rightly divide the word- everything fits and there is one unified understanding
as vw the con man rightly stated there are no 10,000 ways to cut a coat
Does Waxit consider Sunday as the first day of the week? Again in looking at the calendar it could be the first day of the week or the seventh day of the week? Why is this important to Waxit? Regarding your doctrinal beliefs, which is more important to you? The writings of the Old Testament or the New Testament? Jesus Christ did not appear until the period of time with the New Testament and we now have the gift of Holy Spirit to help our spiritual understanding? Do you see that the importance of the Sabbath day of rest was primarily seen in the writings of the Old Testament? For example, the apostle to the gentiles named Paul, only mentions the Greek word for “Sabbath” two times in his writings. One of which is Colossians 2:16-17.
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
NIV
The only other usage from Paul, the apostle for the Gentiles in the New Testament for the Greek word for Sabbath is translated as “of the week”
1 Corinthians 16:1-3
16 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
KJV
Quote
Many Christians feel that God still expects His people to set aside one day in seven to Him. They argue that such an observance is a creation ordinance which is binding until this creation comes to an end and our ultimate rest as Christians is realized in heaven (Hebrews 4). They also believe that as part of the moral system known as the Ten Commandments, the Sabbath is morally binding upon all people for all time.
The usage of the word Sabbath in the New Testament was primarily addressed to the Hebrew people who believed that this was a special day for people to gather together in public worship. The scribes and Pharisees sometimes even criticized Jesus Christ for not observing this day even though Jesus also observed this day. But Jesus condemned the pharisaical attitude that missed the deep spiritual truth behind Sabbath observance (Matthew 12:14; Mark 2:23; Luke 6:1-11; John 5:1-18).
Mark 2:23-3:6
23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"
25 He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."
27 Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
3 Another time he went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2 Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, "Stand up in front of everyone."
4 Then Jesus asked them, "Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they remained silent.
5 He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.
NIV
Oh goodness, 34 pages. Can you summarise a little, Waxit?
So some might say, does that refer to the then Israel, or to the "spiritual Israel" meaning all believers now?
You need to look at (if you don't mind the expression) The "heart behind it." Work six days, have a rest and spend time with your family. God knows it's important to have periodic rests. He also knows it's important to keep family structures together (heck, he invented "family") and all hanging out together, eating together, is important for family cohesion and family values (one of which would be respecting the Lord).
Equally, however, there are some that did not "keep the Sabbath" on the "Sabbath day." These would include those working in the temple - all the Levites and other officials. We don't know when their "day of rest" would be; perhaps the day before, though that's off topic here.
Ok! To summarise, the weekly sabbath is always on the seventh day of the week and is a commandment from God.
If there is one thing that the pharisees
got it right is the observance of the sabbath on the 7th day of the week (i.e saturday not sunday (1st day of the weeK
Please read my attachment of "Romes challenge to the protestants" on how sunday came into being
despite the fact that for over 400 years since the time of the early christians- there was no such thing as a sunday sabbath
If you didnt see the attatachment
when i started the topic "One man esteemth one day above another......", let me know and i will re send it to you
You have got the right understanding behind God ordaining the day of rest and why God established it as a commandment
right from the beginning. However the details of when it is to be observed is also important. (7th day of the weeK)
Hebrews 13:8
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Gen 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested
from all his work which God created and made.
If Jesus Christ didnt keep the sabbath then he would have broken the 4th commandment
of the 10 commandments and your salvation and mine would have been kaput.
We have a perfect saviour who never sinned.
You say that Jesus Christ always kept the law but not necessarily the sabbath
You are contradicting yourself here accrding to God's word
The law is "keep the 7th day sabbath". So if Jesus did not keep the 7th day sabbath at any time, he would have broken the law.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Twinky show me in the bible where Jesus did not keep the sabbath
Are you saying that because Jesus healed the man with a withered man, he is not keeping the sabbath
This is what the pharisees said but look at what Jesus Christ replied:
Luke 6
6 And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.
7 And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.
8 But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.
9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?
So healing and sabbath service is part of the sabbath. Jesus frequently healed on the sabbath so he never broke
the 4 th commandment. The levites might have taken another day off but within the context of "keeping the sabbath
for rest, worship,teaching & fellowship, they never broke the commandment.
Sabbath starts at even (evening(sunset) of the 6th day- friday and finishes on the evening(sunset) of saturday
There is plenty of time for the priests to sleep and to have a nap
The orthodox Jews had a very strict interpretation of "no works" on the sabbath and therfore did not observe sabbath
with the right heart and attitude of having no crinkles on their colours but Jesus Christ (the Lord of the Sabbath) said:
"Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?
Healing is part of the sabbath. Today we dont have Jesus with us physically so what happens when
someone is ill - he has a common cold- He has to go to the door for medicine/antibiotics right
so in this way he gets healed and rested
God has covered us within the context of the sabbath if we ever needed healing and rest
I hope I am making sense- Jesus Christ always kept the Sabbath (7th day-saturday as commanded by God)
not sunday- man made tradition (roman catholics started it)
Read "Rome's Challenge to the Protestant" (google it if you dont have a copy or i can send you a pdf version)
Heya Waxit ! I will not reply to your initial question to me as Mark and Rocky have both said pretty much what my reply would have been. IF we are 'spiritual' Israel today, then we 'spiritually' keep the sabbath (John 4:24 perhaps) Our responsibility as NT believers is to do more you said. Well, like Mark said, we can worship God 24/7 now with the new man nature ! Can I just say, as someone who has personally known you over the years, please treat everybody here on GS with open mindedness and respect. Bless you bro !
got it right is the observance of the sabbath on the 7th day of the week (i.e saturday not sunday (1st day of the weeK
Names of days are arbitrary; in fact, most days are named after pagan gods. When a named day falls is arbitrary.
If you're going to get really precise, you have to count the 7th day from the original first "day of rest." Don't envy you that task.
Please have a little more respect for people here. You have knocked some very thoughtful people. We have reached our current views after long heart-searching, after sometimes painful journeys out of the bullying and dogmatic approach of TWI. No-one here needs anyone else to try to order us to think in a particular way. By all means, present your argument - for discussion, not for dogma or doctrine.
I know you are passionate to understand God and to do your best. Please accept that others are, also, and we are all at different places of our understanding of God. Do what's right for you, now.
Rocky, first of all Mark is not my enemy and secondly I definitely do not have the final word on what pleases God. Only the Lord Jesus Christ will judge rigteously in the end
Only God knows who will and who will not enter the kingdom of God.
I dont know whether you give a hoot about the sabbath which is a really important topic
but instead you are picking to comment on something that you should think about before you tap on the keyboard
To be honest, I did not want to comment to Mark's reply because I thought he might be in the twilight zone
but i thought wait a minute, he needs to be shown so he can think along the correct lines outlined in the word of God
So this is actually loving the person enough to show him and not ignore someone. It was not delivered with hatred but love
It's great that you are sticking up for Mark but it's unwarranted and it's not thought through and hence the knee jerk reaction
Someone who is quick to jump the gun in defence saying Haannm! Who do you think are?
My reply to Mark is one of those cases akin to someone observing the tell tale signs of what a person is saying
and making an accurate assesment of what's going to happen to him which is in line with the manual (the word of God).
If you want to make an accurate assesment on how a car will function, you will read the car manual
If you dont like the sound your refrigerator is making, you will read the refigerator manual
So the same thing with spiritual things, you go to the bible
This is why God gave us His word so we can learn from examples in the word like Moses and see what pleases
God and to make sure we are on the right track spiritually (rightly dividing the word)
It's a bit ridiculous for you to comment on my reply to Mark and say- "I may or may not have the final word on what pleases God"
because you are assuming I am being a judge and I am not the judge- just pointing out what pleases God coming from the divinely
inspired word of God aka the bible
Why do you think God;s word written so it will remain a complete
mystery!!!!!!!and becausee God wants us confused all our lives!!!!!!!!! as to what pleases Him
No! definitely not
Thanks for quoting Mark 5:44-45 but it's unwarranted and out of context because
Mark is not my enemy, just someone who needs to be shown from the bible the error
behind his own opinionated thinking so if he decides to change his thinking,
he can be on the right track spiritually not according to what I think
but according to what God is looking for so God can shower His blessings on Mark
Biblical Definition of Meeness:: Meekness is an attribute of human nature and behavior. It has been definedseveral ways:
righteous, humble, teachable, and patient under suffering, long suffering willing to follow gospel teachings; an attribute of a true disciple
Psalm 25:
9 The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
10 All the paths of theLordare mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenantand his testimonies.
Okay... but just in case you may have missed it, there's Matthew 7:1
1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged.2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
But there will also be people who will refuse to understand by holding to something that is clearly
a contradiction of the word of God
There will also be people who will refuse to agree with your understanding of something in the Bible that you emphatically hold true but may indeed be your misunderstanding. Just sayin'.
"Saturday is universally recognised as the seventh day of the week. Sunday is recognised as the first day of the week."
[When I see people's "rationale" for something as "it need not be defended" or "everyone knows this", I tend to get suspicious, It's not how someone explains, it's how someone ducks explaining something.
In all the print calendars I've seen for the past decade (and longer), nearly all of them run Monday to Sunday, and posted work schedules have likewise been "Monday to Sunday" Sounds like your position is not " universally recognized."
"Rocky, first of all Mark is not my enemy and secondly I definitely do not have the final word on what pleases God. Only the Lord Jesus Christ will judge rigteously in the end
Only God knows who will and who will not enter the kingdom of God.
I dont know whether you give a hoot about the sabbath which is a really important topic
but instead you are picking to comment on something that you should think about before you tap on the keyboard
To be honest, I did not want to comment to Mark's reply because I thought he might be in the twilight zone
but i thought wait a minute, he needs to be shown so he can think along the correct lines outlined in the word of God
So this is actually loving the person enough to show him and not ignore someone. It was not delivered with hatred but love "
{Waxit,
Welcome to the Grease Spot Cafe! Here, many different opinions and positions are allowed. People can think for themselves and don't usually have to toe a company line. Christians and non-Christians discuss what interests them. It seems like this is as new an experience for you as it is for a lot of ex-twi'ers (as well as those still in.)
When you're communicating with people who may not agree with you, it is NOT effective, usually, to get on your high horse and condescend to say that you're right, they're wrong, and they'll have to get with your position or risk displeasing God Almighty. This is a common method of communication for twi innies and survivors. It is largely ineffective outside of twi and twi-style groups. A lot of us posted like that to a greater or lesser degree once- myself included. I recommend you reconsider if you want anyone to agree with you. I might think you have legitimate points to make, but few people will bother to agree with someone whose posting style makes it look like he's full of his own self-importance.
It's most likely that you'll slap a label on my post and on me- which will make it easy to dismiss what I'm saying. It's possible you'll consider whether I have a legitimate point. I recommend you think on it. Paul was all things to all men so that by all means he could save some. Perhaps you could benefit from a little flexibility in your communication style.]
12 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
3 He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread — which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"
11 He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
13 Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.
15 Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, 16 warning them not to tell who he was. 17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
NIV
Even Israelite people in Old Testament times should see that murdering someone, which is also against one of the ten commandments, should be a higher crime than working on your farm to get food for your family on Saturday or Sunday, whichever is considered the Sabbath day. And Jesus Christ did some work to help hungry people on a Sabbath day as read in Matthew chapter 12. In the next verses the Pharisees even complain about healing someone on a Sabbath day, which for them was work and not godly faith. The Pharisees wanted to commit the crime, which we also have today, of murder for even healing someone to help that person. I hope that Waxit at least sees murder as a higher godly crime than not going to his church or another church on Saturday.
There will also be people who will refuse to agree with your understanding of something in the Bible that you emphatically hold true but may indeed be your misunderstanding. Just sayin'.
Yeah! that's true- like i said if you read my previous post- there will always be people who will disagree that I hold true
and you maybe one of them- so what! The whole world accept for a small minority agreed with Jesus Christ who was THe Way, The Truth and The Life
so am i that people should agree with me when I show them the word of God. My duty as a christian
is to hold forth the word- what people do with it is their own business
Everyone is accountable to the Lord on the day of judgement
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
60
71
80
156
Popular Days
May 24
27
Apr 23
25
Apr 26
24
May 20
23
Top Posters In This Topic
Rocky 60 posts
T-Bone 71 posts
Twinky 80 posts
Waxit 156 posts
Popular Days
May 24 2020
27 posts
Apr 23 2020
25 posts
Apr 26 2020
24 posts
May 20 2020
23 posts
Popular Posts
Twinky
Right. The goal of the law is to get to know Jesus, the Christ. Get to know the Man, the King, the Shepherd, the Redeemer. The goal of the law IS NOT to get to observe any specific day, or time
WordWolf
"The thing though with you guys, it looks like in a clique, you are comfortable in protecting yourselves and when a new kid in the block comes is with something you don't like (which is quite clearl
WordWolf
Waxit: "The 7th day Sabbath was universally accepted by all and observed by both Jews,Gentiles and the apostles/leadership Acts 13: 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the
Allan
I think Exodus 31:13 may give an indication of who is obliged to keep the sabbath "For I (God) give unto you (Israel) the sabbath, to keep forever (Age lasting) you and your generations." ... this will probs get moved to the doctrinal discussion Waxit :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Oh goodness, 34 pages. Can you summarise a little, Waxit?
So some might say, does that refer to the then Israel, or to the "spiritual Israel" meaning all believers now?
You need to look at (if you don't mind the expression) The "heart behind it." Work six days, have a rest and spend time with your family. God knows it's important to have periodic rests. He also knows it's important to keep family structures together (heck, he invented "family") and all hanging out together, eating together, is important for family cohesion and family values (one of which would be respecting the Lord).
Equally, however, there are some that did not "keep the Sabbath" on the "Sabbath day." These would include those working in the temple - all the Levites and other officials. We don't know when their "day of rest" would be; perhaps the day before, though that's off topic here.
Exodus 31:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Sorry, the Quote bit went wrong for me - again. But you can figure out what's what, I'm sure.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Allan
Good points Waxit and Twinky...Someone once said "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath" I tend towards the Israelites being such hardworkers and 'money and success driven' that the sabbath was given to them to remember and honour who their sufficiency was ! As born again Christians we know (ought to) WHO our sufficiency is and can worship and praise Him in spirit and in truth 24/7...Interesting that Isaiah 28:11,12 is quoted by Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:21 "The rest wherewith He (God) causes the weary to rest" referring to s.i.t.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
I work hard, and it's quite physical at times. Generally, I don't do any work on Sunday (unless I have to care for someone, visit and help them in their home). I go to my lovely "community" church and am welcomed by friends. There's so much hanging around both before and after the service! Maybe have lunch with a friend at their house. Then, I maybe go for a long walk and enjoy the freedom of it and relish God's beauty in the fields and wildlife around me. Or I tend my own garden and again, relish God's beauty and ability to provide. Maybe (though not lately nor foreseeably) I visit my Mum.
If I don't have this time to rest, the following week is much harder, more tiring.
People: take time to breathe. Time to smell the roses. Time to appreciate God's beauty in all the things around you. In the people around you. You need a rest.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
One of the things we should remember is that when God got around to fashioning our world, he did things - from rest to rest.
And the evening and the morning were the first/second/… day.
Your day starts from rest (sunset the day before, reset through the night, work through the day, then returns to rest in the evening. Too often we think our day starts when we get up. It doesn't it starts earlier than that: when you rest.
And your working week also starts from that position of rest: a time to relax, unwind, enjoy God, breathe, before a full-on week … then rest again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Waxit
Twinky brought out a good point about physical Israel and spiritual Israel
Alan, It doesnt mean that just because "God gave the sabbath to children of Israel (physical descendants of Abraham)
that the sabbath doesnt apply to children of God (born again christians through the acceptance
and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Born again christians are the spiritual Israel (born again christians who love God and will obey all
God's commandments including all the 10 commandments
Bear in mind the importance between the physical -fleshly nature of physical israel and the spiritual nature of born again
Christians who believe and obey all the commandments of God
Why is it important to obey all the commandments of God (including the 7th day sabbath) as the Israel of God (spiritual Israel)
James 2:10
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
physical Israel to whom the 10 commandments were given to by God through Moses represent the stock of Abraham's physical descendants
If you say Allan,that according to your interpretation of Ex 31:13- you are not obliged to keep the sabbath -it applies to the nation of Israel of that era
It's like saying - Moses presented and spoke the 10 commandments to the children of Israel- He didnt speak to me personally so it doesn't apply to me.
So folowing that logic, you can steal, you can lie and you can commit adultery because the 10 commandments was not spoken to you
directly or addressed to you personally so it doesnt apply to you. I am sure you know that's absurd
The truth is the children of God (born again christians) are the spiritual Israel who have a greater responsibility than physical Israel (direct descendants
of Abraham). Dont look at the sabbath as a burden or an inconvenience- if you do then you will be missing the point and be constantly finding an excuse
People say that the love of God is the greatest commandment and that's all that matters.
Ok! let's see what God specifies as "the love of God"
1 John 5:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandmentsss(plural-includes the 4th commandment- 7th day sabbath)
and his commandments are not grievous.
Let's look at what constitutes physical Israel and spiritual Israel and why spiritual Israel who enjoy the greatest blessing have
the greater responsibilty in keeping the 7th day (sabbath) not 1st day of the week (sunday)
Physical Israel (descendants of Abraham by physical birth)
Genesis 28
13 And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac:
the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east,
and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Dust represents the physical nature of the israelitish generations - it is the physical multiplication of the seed of
Abraham through normal physical birth. It does not require believing faith to be born into the lineage of Abraham" spiritual
seed. Esau was a direct physical descendant of Abrahm through Issac but missed out on the blessings big time.
Why? because he was ignorant and didnt care
Being of the stock of Abraham like the pharisees who said we have Abraham for our father doesnt mean they will believe
all the commandments of God by faith like Abraham and that's why Jesus Christ emphasisized the spiritual nature of Abraham.
Genesis 15:
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children (spiritual Israel
who believe in faith and obey), ye would do the works of Abraham.
What were the works of abraham? He believed God and obeyed even to the point where he was willing to offer Issac as a sacrifice
Pharisees and religious people frequently bring in their own traditions (carnal flesh) and will oppose the commandments of God (spiritual)
Spiritual Israel (descendants of Abraham by spiritual birth)
Genesis 15
2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be (spiritual seed)
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Notice physical israel is compared to dust- earthy- physical while spiritual Israel is represented as "the stars of heaven"- heavenly- kingdom of God-spiritual
If we are truly born again christians by spiritual birth then we will toss aside man's traditions and believe and
obey what God's word says. The devil knows if you keep obeying Man made traditions (sunday keeping) as opposed to sabbath keeping (7th day-Saturday)
just on this point (James 2:10) then he will have great joy in knowing that you will miss out like Esau- ahh! what does it matter.
Esau cried afterwards but did he repent. Noooo!
We will not make excuses or find something that vaguely on the surface seemingly justifies our
excuse which is what vw did with "one day esteemeth one day above another" so you can keep sunday (1st day of the week)- it doesnt matter
who cares if God commanded the 7th day sabbath. I am sure people dont do this deliberately but ignorance is no excuse.
We have the divinely inspired word of God right in front of us to guide us.
Note the second part of Ex 31:13- it states that the sabbath is applicable to "you and your generations.
The true believers to day are the spiritual Israel - they are the extensions of generations of the seed of Abraham who believe and obey
(repented born again Christians by spiritual birth)
If you read the whole of Galatians 3, you will understand that born again believers in Christ are the spiritual Israel -
Spiritual Israel are believe who believe by faith the promises of God and demonstrate that by obeying the commandments of God
Remember Abraham believed and it was accounted to him for righteousness
Galatians 3:
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 2:
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; (one who believes and obeys like Abraham)
and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit (God's word and His commandments)
, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Galatians 6: 8
8 For he that soweth to his flesh (mans traditions and works of the flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;
but he that soweth to the Spirit (word of God and the commandments of God)
shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Galatians 6:16
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God
(spiritual Israel)
Jesus Christ said in John 6:63
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh (mans traditions) profiteth nothing: the words (the word of God in the bible)
that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (spiritual Israel- born again in Christ- who believe and obey)
Though christians do believe and keep the greatest commandment- Love God with all your heart.....
they ignore the 7th day sabbath - the 4th commandment of God and therfore disqualify themselves
How do i know this?
1 John 5: 1-3
5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandmentssss (plural- all of God's word) and commandments:
and his commandments are not grievous.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
What is considered the first day of the week? Is it Monday or Sunday? As far as actual work in the United States and globally, Monday is considered the first day of the week regarding work. And then Sunday is the main day off with regard to work with our seven day weeks that are part of our calendars. Although grocery stores are still open even on Sunday so that people can go there to buy food to eat.
Regarding comments, I think Twinky has made some good points here. And because of what we have today spiritually through Jesus Christ, making Sunday or Saturday a special spiritual day is insignificant to me. Through Jesus Christ, and God's gift of the Holy Spirit, every day can be spiritual to us. The question to me is are we getting enough sleep at night? We need sleep at least once a day to energize our lives because of our mortal in flesh human bodies. In the future when we get our Christ like spiritual bodies we may not need sleep then.
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
Share on other sites
Waxit
Hi Mark
Please understand that you cannot be considered spiritual and in favour with God
if you disrespect and consider insignificant what God has ordained as a significant day for rest and worship and fellowship (Sabbath)
Saturday is universally recognised as the seventh day of the week. Sunday is recognised as the first day of the week.
Dont you think what is important to Jesus Christ (Lord of Sabbath ) should be of utmost importance to you if you want Him to grant you
a new spiritual body. Like you want His blessings but you disrect His 4th commandent (in the 10 commandments) - that doesn't make sense???
Trust me you have to change your attitude to one of meekness and obedience like Moses
and become humble to God's word if you want his blessings.
It's not what you think is important or what i think is important but what God thinks is important.
If you consider yourself to be a true christian, then you must enquire- what God wants (its always the best for you and me )
and obey God's word as He clearly shows in the bible.
Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all
readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
vw showed us this scripture but loaded us with a lot of cr_p
Everday can be a spiritual day for you and me but there is a specific day that He has set aside for you and me as a sabbath
so we will be rested and free of work distrctions
(day of rest and fellowship with Him and with believers.
God specifically set aside Saturday (the seventh day) as a day of rest and worship and fellowship in the heanvens
right from the beginning when he began the work of creation
Gen 2:2-3
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it (set aside): because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
and subsequentially
confirmed it in writing (the finger of God) when He gave Moses the 10 commandments of God engraved in stone tablets
Exodus 20: 8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Mark which part of the above verses in the word of God, don't you understand?
Edited by WaxitLink to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Am I understanding your intent Waxit to be that if anyone disagrees with your understanding, they somehow aren't "in fellowship" with God? Or some variation on that theme?
Or perhaps you meant to ask which part of any of them does anyone understand differently than you?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
"Trust me you have to change your attitude to one of meekness and obedience like Moses
and become humble to God's word if you want his blessings."
What about Matthew 5:44-45?
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Trust me, Waxit, you may or may not have the final word on what pleases God and what doesn't.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Waxit
Rocky, first of all Mark is not my enemy and secondly I definitely do not have the final word on what pleases God. Only the Lord Jesus Christ will judge rigteously in the end
Only God knows who will and who will not enter the kingdom of God.
I dont know whether you give a hoot about the sabbath which is a really important topic
but instead you are picking to comment on something that you should think about before you tap on the keyboard
To be honest, I did not want to comment to Mark's reply because I thought he might be in the twilight zone
but i thought wait a minute, he needs to be shown so he can think along the correct lines outlined in the word of God
So this is actually loving the person enough to show him and not ignore someone. It was not delivered with hatred but love
It's great that you are sticking up for Mark but it's unwarranted and it's not thought through and hence the knee jerk reaction
Someone who is quick to jump the gun in defence saying Haannm! Who do you think are?
My reply to Mark is one of those cases akin to someone observing the tell tale signs of what a person is saying
and making an accurate assesment of what's going to happen to him which is in line with the manual (the word of God).
If you want to make an accurate assesment on how a car will function, you will read the car manual
If you dont like the sound your refrigerator is making, you will read the refigerator manual
So the same thing with spiritual things, you go to the bible
This is why God gave us His word so we can learn from examples in the word like Moses and see what pleases
God and to make sure we are on the right track spiritually (rightly dividing the word)
It's a bit ridiculous for you to comment on my reply to Mark and say- "I may or may not have the final word on what pleases God"
because you are assuming I am being a judge and I am not the judge- just pointing out what pleases God coming from the divinely
inspired word of God aka the bible
Why do you think God;s word written so it will remain a complete
mystery!!!!!!!and becausee God wants us confused all our lives!!!!!!!!! as to what pleases Him
No! definitely not
Thanks for quoting Mark 5:44-45 but it's unwarranted and out of context because
Mark is not my enemy, just someone who needs to be shown from the bible the error
behind his own opinionated thinking so if he decides to change his thinking,
he can be on the right track spiritually not according to what I think
but according to what God is looking for so God can shower His blessings on Mark
Biblical Definition of Meeness::
Meekness is an attribute of human nature and behavior. It has been defined several ways:
righteous, humble, teachable, and patient under suffering, long suffering
willing to follow gospel teachings; an attribute of a true disciple
Psalm 25:
9 The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
10 All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.
Edited by WaxitLink to comment
Share on other sites
Waxit
People may agree or disagree with me-that's a fact of life- I am not saying that I have all the answers and that everyone should follow me
That's not my intent- not at all
I meant to ask which part of my statement, someone is having difficulty understanding
At the end of the day- there are some people who genuinely have a difficulty understanding
for some reason and these are people that I can discuss further
But there will also be people who will refuse to understand by holding to something that is clearly
a contradiction of the word of God
and I can still love them and pray for them but i wont waste my time discussing further with them
God words is such that when you rightly divide the word- everything fits and there is one unified understanding
as vw the con man rightly stated there are no 10,000 ways to cut a coat
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Does Waxit consider Sunday as the first day of the week? Again in looking at the calendar it could be the first day of the week or the seventh day of the week? Why is this important to Waxit? Regarding your doctrinal beliefs, which is more important to you? The writings of the Old Testament or the New Testament? Jesus Christ did not appear until the period of time with the New Testament and we now have the gift of Holy Spirit to help our spiritual understanding? Do you see that the importance of the Sabbath day of rest was primarily seen in the writings of the Old Testament? For example, the apostle to the gentiles named Paul, only mentions the Greek word for “Sabbath” two times in his writings. One of which is Colossians 2:16-17.
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
NIV
The only other usage from Paul, the apostle for the Gentiles in the New Testament for the Greek word for Sabbath is translated as “of the week”
1 Corinthians 16:1-3
16 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
KJV
The usage of the word Sabbath in the New Testament was primarily addressed to the Hebrew people who believed that this was a special day for people to gather together in public worship. The scribes and Pharisees sometimes even criticized Jesus Christ for not observing this day even though Jesus also observed this day. But Jesus condemned the pharisaical attitude that missed the deep spiritual truth behind Sabbath observance (Matthew 12:14; Mark 2:23; Luke 6:1-11; John 5:1-18).
Mark 2:23-3:6
Edited by Mark Sanguinetti23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"
25 He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."
27 Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
3 Another time he went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2 Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, "Stand up in front of everyone."
4 Then Jesus asked them, "Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they remained silent.
5 He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.
NIV
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Waxit
Ok! To summarise, the weekly sabbath is always on the seventh day of the week and is a commandment from God.
If there is one thing that the pharisees
got it right is the observance of the sabbath on the 7th day of the week (i.e saturday not sunday (1st day of the weeK
Please read my attachment of "Romes challenge to the protestants" on how sunday came into being
despite the fact that for over 400 years since the time of the early christians- there was no such thing as a sunday sabbath
If you didnt see the attatachment
when i started the topic "One man esteemth one day above another......", let me know and i will re send it to you
You have got the right understanding behind God ordaining the day of rest and why God established it as a commandment
right from the beginning. However the details of when it is to be observed is also important. (7th day of the weeK)
Hebrews 13:8
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Gen 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested
from all his work which God created and made.
If Jesus Christ didnt keep the sabbath then he would have broken the 4th commandment
of the 10 commandments and your salvation and mine would have been kaput.
We have a perfect saviour who never sinned.
You say that Jesus Christ always kept the law but not necessarily the sabbath
You are contradicting yourself here accrding to God's word
The law is "keep the 7th day sabbath". So if Jesus did not keep the 7th day sabbath at any time, he would have broken the law.
1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Twinky show me in the bible where Jesus did not keep the sabbath
Are you saying that because Jesus healed the man with a withered man, he is not keeping the sabbath
This is what the pharisees said but look at what Jesus Christ replied:
Luke 6
6 And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.
7 And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.
8 But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.
9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?
So healing and sabbath service is part of the sabbath. Jesus frequently healed on the sabbath so he never broke
the 4 th commandment. The levites might have taken another day off but within the context of "keeping the sabbath
for rest, worship,teaching & fellowship, they never broke the commandment.
Sabbath starts at even (evening(sunset) of the 6th day- friday and finishes on the evening(sunset) of saturday
There is plenty of time for the priests to sleep and to have a nap
The orthodox Jews had a very strict interpretation of "no works" on the sabbath and therfore did not observe sabbath
with the right heart and attitude of having no crinkles on their colours but Jesus Christ (the Lord of the Sabbath) said:
"Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?
Healing is part of the sabbath. Today we dont have Jesus with us physically so what happens when
someone is ill - he has a common cold- He has to go to the door for medicine/antibiotics right
so in this way he gets healed and rested
God has covered us within the context of the sabbath if we ever needed healing and rest
I hope I am making sense- Jesus Christ always kept the Sabbath (7th day-saturday as commanded by God)
not sunday- man made tradition (roman catholics started it)
Read "Rome's Challenge to the Protestant" (google it if you dont have a copy or i can send you a pdf version)
Edited by WaxitLink to comment
Share on other sites
Allan
Heya Waxit ! I will not reply to your initial question to me as Mark and Rocky have both said pretty much what my reply would have been. IF we are 'spiritual' Israel today, then we 'spiritually' keep the sabbath (John 4:24 perhaps) Our responsibility as NT believers is to do more you said. Well, like Mark said, we can worship God 24/7 now with the new man nature ! Can I just say, as someone who has personally known you over the years, please treat everybody here on GS with open mindedness and respect. Bless you bro !
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Names of days are arbitrary; in fact, most days are named after pagan gods. When a named day falls is arbitrary.
If you're going to get really precise, you have to count the 7th day from the original first "day of rest." Don't envy you that task.
Please have a little more respect for people here. You have knocked some very thoughtful people. We have reached our current views after long heart-searching, after sometimes painful journeys out of the bullying and dogmatic approach of TWI. No-one here needs anyone else to try to order us to think in a particular way. By all means, present your argument - for discussion, not for dogma or doctrine.
I know you are passionate to understand God and to do your best. Please accept that others are, also, and we are all at different places of our understanding of God. Do what's right for you, now.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Okay... but just in case you may have missed it, there's Matthew 7:1
1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
There will also be people who will refuse to agree with your understanding of something in the Bible that you emphatically hold true but may indeed be your misunderstanding. Just sayin'.
Pride goes before the fall. See Proverbs 16.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
How do we define "God's Word"?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Waxit:
"Saturday is universally recognised as the seventh day of the week. Sunday is recognised as the first day of the week."
[When I see people's "rationale" for something as "it need not be defended" or "everyone knows this", I tend to get suspicious, It's not how someone explains, it's how someone ducks explaining something.
In all the print calendars I've seen for the past decade (and longer), nearly all of them run Monday to Sunday, and posted work schedules have likewise been "Monday to Sunday" Sounds like your position is not " universally recognized."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Waxit:
"Rocky, first of all Mark is not my enemy and secondly I definitely do not have the final word on what pleases God. Only the Lord Jesus Christ will judge rigteously in the end
Only God knows who will and who will not enter the kingdom of God.
I dont know whether you give a hoot about the sabbath which is a really important topic
but instead you are picking to comment on something that you should think about before you tap on the keyboard
To be honest, I did not want to comment to Mark's reply because I thought he might be in the twilight zone
but i thought wait a minute, he needs to be shown so he can think along the correct lines outlined in the word of God
So this is actually loving the person enough to show him and not ignore someone. It was not delivered with hatred but love "
{Waxit,
Welcome to the Grease Spot Cafe! Here, many different opinions and positions are allowed. People can think for themselves and don't usually have to toe a company line. Christians and non-Christians discuss what interests them. It seems like this is as new an experience for you as it is for a lot of ex-twi'ers (as well as those still in.)
When you're communicating with people who may not agree with you, it is NOT effective, usually, to get on your high horse and condescend to say that you're right, they're wrong, and they'll have to get with your position or risk displeasing God Almighty. This is a common method of communication for twi innies and survivors. It is largely ineffective outside of twi and twi-style groups. A lot of us posted like that to a greater or lesser degree once- myself included. I recommend you reconsider if you want anyone to agree with you. I might think you have legitimate points to make, but few people will bother to agree with someone whose posting style makes it look like he's full of his own self-importance.
It's most likely that you'll slap a label on my post and on me- which will make it easy to dismiss what I'm saying. It's possible you'll consider whether I have a legitimate point. I recommend you think on it. Paul was all things to all men so that by all means he could save some. Perhaps you could benefit from a little flexibility in your communication style.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Even Israelite people in Old Testament times should see that murdering someone, which is also against one of the ten commandments, should be a higher crime than working on your farm to get food for your family on Saturday or Sunday, whichever is considered the Sabbath day. And Jesus Christ did some work to help hungry people on a Sabbath day as read in Matthew chapter 12. In the next verses the Pharisees even complain about healing someone on a Sabbath day, which for them was work and not godly faith. The Pharisees wanted to commit the crime, which we also have today, of murder for even healing someone to help that person. I hope that Waxit at least sees murder as a higher godly crime than not going to his church or another church on Saturday.
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
Share on other sites
Waxit
Yeah! that's true- like i said if you read my previous post- there will always be people who will disagree that I hold true
and you maybe one of them- so what! The whole world accept for a small minority agreed with Jesus Christ who was THe Way, The Truth and The Life
so am i that people should agree with me when I show them the word of God. My duty as a christian
is to hold forth the word- what people do with it is their own business
Everyone is accountable to the Lord on the day of judgement
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.