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The Absent Christ?


OldSkool
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First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of the absent Christ. Damnable heresy all the way here. It would be worded better if they just told the truth: The way ministry takes the place of the real Jesus Christ. That holds true across the board for people in the way international. The directors act as the head of the body. The way ministry is considered by the way ministry "the functioning body of Christ"...the way corps stand in the gap....the only gap I have ever known about was the one that was put between God and his people by the sin nature. The real Jesus Christ stands in that gap as the way, the truth, and the life. Jesus Christ died for our sins...not the way international. I could keep going....does anyone have any idea whatsoever where this awful doctrine originated? I have never heard it outside the way ministry. Was this VPW's brainchild? 

To me this is a very anti-Christ doctrine. Nowhere is Christ ever called absent and nowhere is he replaced by anything. He has all the preeminance. Period. Jesus Christ is the chief corner stone and no other foundation can no man lay. I

Edited by OldSkool
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If something is absent, it's not here, it's not present.

God in Christ in you? How can Christ be in you if Christ is absent? Are you absent? Where is the power if it is absent?

And what is the word that takes the place of this absent Christ? The Bible? The KJV Bible? The Llamsa Bible? What a disappointing substitute!

This is one of many, many examples of victor defecating in his own hand and then throwing that feces in the face of God.

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That is the WORST ERRANT doctrine that TWI ever taught and promoted. I clearly saw that as I was leaving TWI in the late 1980s. I even wrote an article to help educate people as I was leaving in the late 1980s. The article title was and is: "Lordship of Jesus Christ Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man". With editing I even added this chapter as one of the 16 chapters of my recent biblical teaching book. The following is quoted from this chapter.

Quote

       There should be no doctrine or teaching which elevates some people at the expense of other legitimate followers of Jesus Christ. Only God the Father and his Son Jesus are to be exalted. Today we have false doctrines such as the pope being the Vicar of Christ, or that by our minds renewed to God's word we take the place of the absent Christ, as was taught in the Christian organization I used to associate with. Christ is surely not absent nor is anyone, regardless of which denomination or Christian organization he heads, be it big or small, the head of the body of believers. The only head of the body of believers is seated at God’s right hand in heaven, the Lord Jesus Christ (Colossians 3:1). It seems the Church, as made up of all believers in Jesus Christ regardless of denominational affiliation, is continually in jeopardy of making its leaders as lords and even worse, mediators between God and men, when in fact, there is but one God and only one mediator between God and men or humans, the man Christ Jesus from 1 Timothy 2:5. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  (KJV)

In addition, if I met one of the leaders of TWI now, I would try to correct this false doctrine in a peaceful way. Hopefully, they corrected at least some of this DUMB DEE DUMB DUMB, errant and false doctrine.  

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

If something is absent, it's not here, it's not present.

God in Christ in you? How can Christ be in you if Christ is absent? Are you absent? Where is the power if it is absent?

And what is the word that takes the place of this absent Christ? The Bible? The KJV Bible? The Llamsa Bible? What a disappointing substitute!

This is one of many, many examples of victor defecating in his own hand and then throwing that feces in the face of God.

That's a great point using the way international's own favorite section of scripture - it's Christ in you!

Beyond that though. Check out the book of Acts. It's filled with people (of course primarily Peter and then Paul but also many others) who had interaction with the Lord Jesus Christ as he functioned as the head of the body and directed the affairs of the Church. Nothing has changed with this relationship. He is still head of the body and still directing the affairs of the church and so very much more. God has literally given all things into his hands.

“…yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.” – 2 Corinthians 5:16

Christ is no longer what we know as "flesh and blood." He has been completely transformed at his resurection. To me it's a good example of Wierwille's fleshly mind trying to comprehend true spiritual matters...and appearantly he couldn't. That's telling.

Wierwille was unable to lead people to a relationship with Jesus Christ because he didn't know him. He knew of him...but he didn't know him. And nobody can say he sidestepped Jesus Christ and went to God some other way. Those that try that route are called thiefs and robbers.

Edited by OldSkool
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1 hour ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

or that by our minds renewed to God's word we take the place of the absent Christ,

Thanks Mark! I enjoyed the read. Question: Was this the original doctrine? Present day (and with my involvement in TWI starting in 96 and ending in 2008) I have never heard that angle. I am assuming it's a progression of error. Obviously, we do not take the place of Christ, though we are his body, his ambassadors, etc, etc, on down the line. So am I correct in assuming the progression of error went from renewed mind believers taking Christ's place to the word of God taking the place of the absent Christ?

Wierwille appearantly had a real problem with Jesus Christ as the head of the body....because obviously he tried to take the place of Christ in directing the affairs of the body of Christ in his fantasy land the way international is the body of Christ. I refer to him as the source of this error and his followers have taken the ball and ran with it.

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OldSkool, that is simply one of the doctrines that TWI taught,  "that by our minds renewed to God's word we take the place of the absent Christ". I wonder if they still taught that from 1996 to 2008? Do other people remember that TWI doctrine?

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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2 hours ago, chockfull said:

Pygmy Pharisees take the place of the risen Christ?

:biglaugh:

they always come up short :rolleyes:

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The absent Christ doctrine is another of wierwille’s switcheroos…think about it – wierwille declared “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ”. Now any PFAL grad worth their salt knows “The Word” really means “the rightly-divided Word as taught by wierwille”. Thus for all practical purposes “The Word”…PFALthe rightly-divided Word as taught by wierwille” replaces the supremacy of Christ.

Essentially this switcheroo enabled a sneaky pseudo-Christian cult-leader like wierwille to lord it over us! wierwille used, abused, violated, subverted, and perverted cult-followers – and he did all that in the name of Christ! In my opinion that’s a  high-octane mind-fvck  because if you question, challenge or reject wierwille’s twisted interpretation of the Bible – according to TWI-groupthink you are really questioning, challenging or rejecting Christ – since wierwille’s “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ”…To which I can confidently say now ( after being out of the cult’s clutches for some 36 years )   bull$hit!  :mad2:

 

Let me spring a color-coded synchronicity “commentary” on you… the colors are just my opinion…the synchronicity aspect has to do with me being a former cult-follower and finding certain passages significantly relevant to my experiences in TWI…others my not see the connection…it’s just a walk people . :biglaugh:

Soooooooooo… bold blue Bible verses below are from BibleGateway website.

I marked the phrases in bold red that I think are pertinent to call out some of the deceptive-ideology-swapping perpetrated by pseudo-Christian cult-leaders like wierwille with their pontificating-packed classes of Biblical sounding rubbish, manipulative tactics and exploitative tendencies.

I marked the phrases in bold green that I think reflect how God   AND   Christ are   NOT   absent in a Christ-centered life…if I was a web-evangelist prone to hype I’d say “my people, we are spiritually loaded for bear !”…but me being the Grease Spotter that I am – let me just say we don’t need any of their stinking classes.

…sooooooo keep it simple –

remember bold red is bad – detrimental…what harmful and controlling cults do. :angry:

bold green is good – i.e., beneficial…what God/Christ do. :rolleyes:

this is the color-coded part of the commentary  -     believe me I don’t have high hopes to compete with Bullinger…although I have imagined T-Bone’s Companion to Grease Spot Café - - which is actually a strong cup of Irish Coffee…oh - were you assuming it’s a book? Ha gotcha – the old T-Bone switcheroo!

anyway here goes…from Colossians 1 & 2:

 

9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives, 10 so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11 being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, 12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

 

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

 

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

 

24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. 25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

 

28 He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. 29 To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me.

Colossians 1: 9-29 NIV

 

I want you to know how hard I am contending for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5 For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.

 

6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

 

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

 

9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self-ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

 

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

 

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

 

20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Colossians 2 NIV

 

Edited by T-Bone
Autocorrect takes the place of the absent editor
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12 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

OldSkool, that is simply one of the doctrines that TWI taught,  "that by our minds renewed to God's word we take the place of the absent Christ". I wonder if they still taught that from 1996 to 2008? Do other people remember that TWI doctrine?

I never heard it taught that way. It was always the word of God takes the place of the absent Christ. I was pretty deeply embedded so to speak. If it was an official doctrine in one of the classes I would have heard it. I had taken every single class they offered multiple times during my time in-residence. I also coordinated many classes for staff at HQ when I was assigned there as way corps. 

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15 hours ago, T-Bone said:

 

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

 

TBone I love your Christmas font edition of Colossians!  It rocks!

This passage stood out to me like it was in 24 font bold. This is what the Way did to me.  Took me captive with a hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and forces of the world rather than Christ.

The teachings of a separate household within the body of Christ is a Pharisee doctrine.  Pharisees set up little inner circles of communication by which they get all their work done.  Never even need to dirty their hands interacting with the masses.

Reversing this involves returning to Christ by booting the Pharisees.  
 

That’s what Jesus did.  Live like him. 
 

:wink2:

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, cman said:

If Christ is not absent, then why is there a "return"? Or "coming of the Lord". It must be talking about something other than what we were taught.

Absent is synanomous with missing. The Word of God takes the place of the missing Christ....yeah...thats in the book of Hezekiah. Im not being a smart alec to you cman. It's the most un-Christian --- "Christian" doctrine I think I've hears....welll....maybe next to all the women in the kingdom belong to the king.

Christ is "absent" because his function, purpose, and ministries changed after the ascenscion. That makes him no less asccesible, if anything, more so now that he is seated at God's right hand, is the savior for mankind, head of the Church, second in command to God, etc.. 

Edited by OldSkool
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30 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Absent is synanomous with missing. The Word of God takes the place of the missing Christ....yeah...thats in the book of Hezekiah. Im not being a smart alec to you cman. It's the most un-Christian --- "Christian" doctrine I think I've hears....welll....maybe next to all the women in the kingdom belong to the king.

Christ is "absent" because his function, purpose, and ministries changed after the ascenscion. That makes him no less asccesible, if anything, more so now that he is seated at God's right hand, is the savior for mankind, head of the Church, second in command to God, etc.. 

Cman is asking why is there a return if he's NOT absent. Regardless of his function, he is NOT absent, right? Or is he absent because of his function?

Maybe these questions were answered and I missed it. Could you explain? Pretend I'm a golden retriever. 

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7 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Cman is asking why is there a return if he's NOT absent. Regardless of his function, he is NOT absent, right? Or is he absent because of his function?

Maybe these questions were answered and I missed it. Could you explain? Pretend I'm a golden retriever. 

Im pulliing my logic from 2 Corinthians 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

Whatever form or function Jesus Christ currently has he is not in a flesh and bones body on the earth. In that sense - yes - he is absent. As the head of the Church and God's right hand man he has never been absent, even though Wierwille wanted him to be.

I understand Im walking a tightrope here and don't wanna get into doctrinal issues here. And of course I posted this here because I am only interested in the origin of the word of God takes the place of the absent Christ. I have never heard that anywhere but TWI.

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1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

Im pulliing my logic from 2 Corinthians 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

Whatever form or function Jesus Christ currently has he is not in a flesh and bones body on the earth. In that sense - yes - he is absent. As the head of the Church and God's right hand man he has never been absent, even though Wierwille wanted him to be.

I understand Im walking a tightrope here and don't wanna get into doctrinal issues here. And of course I posted this here because I am only interested in the origin of the word of God takes the place of the absent Christ. I have never heard that anywhere but TWI.

Perfect. Thanks. I agree. Vic's doctrines were goofy non-sequiturs, including this one. 

So, according to victor, the word of God replaces the carnal, fleshly Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, who is obviously absent in the five senses realm. What do you think he meant by "the word of God?"

 

Edited by Nathan_Jr
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21 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

I'm pulling my logic from

Logic?

Any impression of logic from Victor Wierwille or any of his successors is entirely an illusion.

I'm not trying to be facetious. Stories are not within the realm of logic. The bible is a series of stories. Even if they are/were factually true, they are still stories.

My view as to where this particular story originated, without anyone providing any supporting documentation, I have to believe Victor pulled it out of his butt.

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18 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Logic?

Any impression of logic from Victor Wierwille or any of his successors is entirely an illusion.

I'm not trying to be facetious. Stories are not within the realm of logic. The bible is a series of stories. Even if they are/were factually true, they are still stories.

My view as to where this particular story originated, without anyone providing any supporting documentation, I have to believe Victor pulled it out of his butt.

I believe otherwise about the Bible, Jesus Christ, God. I respect your choice to believe as you do. Peace!

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33 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Perfect. Thanks. I agree. Vic's doctrines we're goofy non-sequiturs, including this one. 

So, according to victor, the word of God replaces the carnal, fleshly Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, who is obviously absent in the five senses realm. What do you think he meant by "the word of God?"

 

Well, judging from my experiences at HQ and from reporting to the directors for a couple years, I would say the word of God is whatever the way international says it is. My 2 cents anyways.

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59 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Well, judging from my experiences at HQ and from reporting to the directors for a couple years, I would say the word of God is whatever the way international says it is. My 2 cents anyways.

That sounds about right. Not matter the size and shape of he hand, they can MAKE it fit the glove.

if the word of God is the will of God, I'm going with the will. The will of God takes the place of the absent Christ. This is what victor meant in the original.... I think.

So much bull$hit, it's hard to know for sure.

 

Edited by Nathan_Jr
The will, the will, and nothing but the will!
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4 hours ago, cman said:

If Christ is not absent, then why is there a "return"? Or "coming of the Lord".

It must be talking about something other than what we were taught.

That’s a great question, cman!

And I agree with your guesstimate “It must be talking about something other than what we were taught”. And in my humble opinion, trying to wade through the mishmash of confusing, eclectic, and sometimes contradictory ideas of what wierwille/TWI taught is more than just a daunting task – it’s downright absurd to the Nth degree…but limiting your “guesstimate statement”  :rolleyes:     to just the fundamentalism aspect of TWI-doctrine  -  I’ll take a stab at it – merely as food for thought on this discussion.

Fundamentalism takes a strictly literal approach to interpreting the Bible. The Bible says Jesus Christ ascended into heaven – so he’s gone. He’s at the right hand of God…someday he’s coming back as King of kings…so he’s not here…but what about verses like: I’m with you always…it’s God in Christ in you…so which is it? Is he here or there?

I think it’s possibly both.

I don’t know how…but trying to wrap my mind around stuff that may go way beyond our concepts of matter, energy, space and time is fun to try...and investigating and explaining the unseen and unknown is the passion of  theorists who get into  stuff like   string theory     ,   superstring theory    and   the theory of everything  …and there may even be more ways for spiritual beings and the spiritual realm to be immanent and yet at the same time transcendent – maybe that info is classified :biglaugh:  .  A fascinating subject though – I’ve touched on this    here     and     here   .

 

Fundamentalism won’t allow for reasoning, speculating, or theorizing outside its rigid dogma.

You might enjoy exploring philosophy and philosophy of religion. There’s a lot more wiggle room in both.

 

DVD extras:

quantum mechanics

immanence

transcendence

Edited by T-Bone
The editor-in-chief is neither here nor there
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3 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Well, judging from my experiences at HQ and from reporting to the directors for a couple years, I would say the word of God is whatever the way international says it is. My 2 cents anyways.

Hence, no logic. EVERY religion pretty much operates the same way.

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4 hours ago, OldSkool said:

I believe otherwise about the Bible, Jesus Christ, God. I respect your choice to believe as you do. Peace!

There's a difference between rational and logical, though they can overlap.

The bible IS a book of stories. I didn't make that up and I'm not saying that the stories are untrue. Stories, however, are not based on logic. Yet, even when they are not based on logic, the can still be rational. 

Story noun In lit., a narrative, either true or fictitious, in prose or verse; a tale, written in a more or less imaginative style, of that which has happened or is supposed to have happened; specifically, a fictitious tale, shorter and less elaborate than a novel; a short romance; a folk-tale.

logic noun The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.

rational adjective Having or exercising the ability to reason. adjective Consistent with or based on reason or good judgment.

In this way, I'm NOT denigrating the bible, but I emphatically believe Wierwille's approach to the bible was kittywhompus to begin with despite his explicit claims to the contrary.

Edited by Rocky
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