Not long ago I decided to abandon the "agnostic atheist" label because it caused more arguments than it resolved.
Here's how I answer now: YOUR god is a fictional character whose non-existence is his ONLY redeeming quality. When it comes to YOUR god, I am an atheist with the certainty of a typist hitting the A key and expecting the letter A to show up on the page.
I can't speak about any other hypothetical gods, but they are irrelevant anyway because you only care if I believe in YOUR God. I don't. He's made up.
Not long ago I decided to abandon the "agnostic atheist" label because it caused more arguments than it resolved.
Here's how I answer now: YOUR god is a fictional character whose non-existence is his ONLY redeeming quality. When it comes to YOUR god, I am an atheist with the certainty of a typist hitting the A key and expecting the letter A to show up on the page.
I can't speak about any other hypothetical gods, but they are irrelevant anyway because you only care if I believe in YOUR God. I don't. He's made up.
Bart Ehrman used to identify as "agnostic atheist."
Agnostic is a term I can get behind, but not as a label. I've said here before that I know next to nothing and embracing this not knowing leads to a healthier life experience. Either I know or I don't, and I am open to following to following the evidence, wherever it might lead.
Atheist, theist, agnostic... Whatever the label, it tells one little to nothing. I'm not sure these labels are helpful at all when one is trying to find out about another.
Either I know or I don't, and I am open... to following the evidence, wherever it might lead.
Atheist, theist, agnostic... Whatever the label, it tells one little to nothing. I'm not sure these labels are helpful at all when one is trying to find out about another.
That's very intriguing (to me, anyway) Nathan. I offered up this thread not because I needed (or wanted) to know anything about anyone at GSC, but as food for thought.
I was raised Catholic in upstate NY until moving w/my mother and two siblings to Arizona. During most of that time in AZ before leaving for basic training, I identified as agnostic. However, I was entrenched in Christian culture anyway. I won't ramble on about my conversion to considering myself Christian.
My 12+ years in TWI and (independent) fellowships in the imprint of TWI thereafter ultimately turned me off to religion. Sure, I tried a church or two after no longer embracing the imprint of twi, but really I had no use for religion because of Victor/Loy and twi. For years, I've considered myself Deist, but really, I'm agnostic and leaning away from the concept of a personal God.
I don't need to tell people I could identify as Atheist. I just don't usually bother.
I offered up this thread not because I needed (or wanted) to know anything about anyone at GSC, but as food for thought.
Right. I got that from the beginning. The food just brought me to the thought that labels are a product of our conditioning. Labels are insufficient and usually problematic, divisive and destructive for the labeler and the labeled. Whether we realize it or not, labels are constructed out of laziness, immaturity and a lack of clear thinking, intellectually and spiritually. Can we see this about ourselves?
One can not see what actually, truly is as long as one is artificially labeling. And one can never come upon that which is eternal, that which has no name, if one is always seeking to label according to one's conditioning, programming, indoctrination.
This was true in Bronze Age Palestine and it's true today.
I was raised a RC and did everything to be the best young man possible. Went to mass twice a day, being the alter boy at 6:30am low mass, and singing in the choir at the 8:15am high mass. After a number of years realizing all the masses, studying everyday after school, did nothing to make me closer to God. On the contrary, feeling nothing towards God was quite disheartening and led to hating the whole mess, and after graduation, the only time attending mass was at weddings and funerals. However, I did feel God was still important, and when witnessed to at a cafe by a TWI WOW, jumped at the idea to once again do something God wanted me too. I ate PFAL up like a hungary kid. My bible had all the believing and faith markings, and anthing else heard in a tape or from a leader. However, after my branch leader and his wife died in a horrific car accident, and no leader had any intentions of raising them from the dead, but condemned them for missing the revelation God was attempting to give them to avoid the accident, my faith went South. I stuck around for years after that, only because of the fear of becoming a greasespot my midnight overtook me. When I filed for a divorce I was M&A so was forced to leave. Thank goodness I was finally out and able to recover sanity.
Being out and able to think for myself, started realizing the only actions I saw about God performing miracles, was in a book written thousands of years ago. Why no parting of water in a lake when people were overtaken in a storm? Why no water being turned into wine, or the hungry getting their meager food multiplied to them?
At this point, questioning the bible and God really made sense. I can’t put a label on the kind of unbeliever I am, but have determined God, Santa Clause, and the Easter Bunny are in the same class. I believe there is some kind of supernatural powers, but don’t believe anyone of them will ever be my savior. Like Sam Harris said, being an atheist allows me to expand my knowledge of life. I cannot explain it all for sure, but can study things I do not understand.
However, after my branch leader and his wife died in a horrific car accident, and no leader had any intentions of raising them from the dead, but condemned them for missing the revelation God was attempting to give them to avoid the accident, my faith went South.
What a horror story! Abject wickedness.
The leaders who condemned the your branch leader? Do you remember their names? Where they live?
At this point, questioning the bible and God really made sense. I can’t put a label on the kind of unbeliever I am, but have determined God, Santa Clause, and the Easter Bunny are in the same class. I believe there is some kind of supernatural powers, but don’t believe anyone of them will ever be my savior. Like Sam Harris said, being an atheist allows me to expand my knowledge of life. I cannot explain it all for sure, but can study things I do not understand.
Thanks for sharing your story, STL – that’s some tough experiences
I’m not a big fan of putting labels on people anyway…since I left TWI and stopped doing that, I‘ve found I appreciate the perspective of others a lot more.
“being an atheist allows me to expand my knowledge of life. I cannot explain it all for sure, but can study things I do not understand”…kudos to you, man! Thanks for your input on numerous threads – I know belief-wise we’re a gazillion miles apart but folks like you help keep the journey to understand real and grounded.
The leaders who condemned the your branch leader? Do you remember their names? Where they live?
I am really taxing my 75 year old memory attempting to recall the names of my branch leaders who died, let alone their bosses, an event that happened over 40 years ago. Neither names presently comes to mind amd probably never will.
I am really taxing my 75 year old memory attempting to recall the names of my branch leaders who died, let alone their bosses, an event that happened over 40 years ago. Neither names presently comes to mind amd probably never will.
No worries! It doesn't even matter. Just morbid curiosity. Great suffering and calamity has befallen those leaders who condemned the accidental death of your branch leaders. I was hoping to read the public records and news media chronicles of their demise.
Not long ago I decided to abandon the "agnostic atheist" label because it caused more arguments than it resolved.
Here's how I answer now: YOUR god is a fictional character whose non-existence is his ONLY redeeming quality. When it comes to YOUR god, I am an atheist with the certainty of a typist hitting the A key and expecting the letter A to show up on the page.
I can't speak about any other hypothetical gods, but they are irrelevant anyway because you only care if I believe in YOUR God. I don't. He's made up.
Raf, I have not been informed about your journey into atheism but would like to read about it, if you want to share it. Am genuinely curious as to what, where, how, why, etc.
I read an article recently asking why there even has to be a term for anyone not believing in god? If you don’t believe in the tooth fairly or santa clause there is no name applied to your unbelief.
I read an article recently asking why there even has to be a term for anyone not believing in god? If you don’t believe in the tooth fairly or santa clause there is no name applied to your unbelief.
Yes. I've heard the same argument. There is no term for anyone who doesn't believe in astrology, either.
The atheists I have known and read are simply unconvinced of any reason to believe in an any god. The theist says there are gods. The atheist says the theist's evidence for Zeus or Yahweh or Isis is insufficient. The atheist doesn't have to prove the negative, the burden of proof is on the theist for his positive claim.
Ultimately, it's up to each atheist what that term means for him. It's a loaded and misleading term. I don't find it very useful.
victor paul wierwille, cult founder and charlatan, said the atheist beleeeves that no god exists, so even the atheist is a beleeever in something. That's inaccurate. (Add it to the pile.) The atheist doesn't beleeeve at all because he hasn't found sufficient reason or evidence to beleeeve.
Yes. I've heard the same argument. There is no term for anyone who doesn't believe in astrology, either.
The atheists I have known and read are simply unconvinced of any reason to believe in an any god. The theist says there are gods. The atheist says the theist's evidence for Zeus or Yahweh or Isis is insufficient. The atheist doesn't have to prove the negative, the burden of proof is on the theist for his positive claim.
Ultimately, it's up to each atheist what that term means for him. It's a loaded and misleading term. I don't find it very useful.
victor paul wierwille, cult founder and charlatan, said the atheist beleeeves that no god exists, so even the atheist is a beleeever in something. That's inaccurate. (Add it to the pile.) The atheist doesn't beleeeve at all because he hasn't found sufficient reason or evidence to beleeeve.
So it seems to me.
It seems to me, both STL and you (NathanJr) made good points. It also seems to me this is only an issue in Western Civilization because of Christianity being the dominant way society frames the issue. Then again, in Islamic regions of the world, people who don't believe in Islam and Allah are infidels, right?
IOW, it's all in how the society in which you live looks at it.
It seems to me, both STL and you (NathanJr) made good points. It also seems to me this is only an issue in Western Civilization because of Christianity being the dominant way society frames the issue. Then again, in Islamic regions of the world, people who don't believe in Islam and Allah are infidels, right?
IOW, it's all in how the society in which you live looks at it.
Rocky that is a good conclusion. At least in Christian and Islamic countries, a non believing person has a label placed on them.
I was raised a RC and did everything to be the best young man possible. Went to mass twice a day, being the alter boy at 6:30am low mass, and singing in the choir at the 8:15am high mass. After a number of years realizing all the masses, studying everyday after school, did nothing to make me closer to God. On the contrary, feeling nothing towards God was quite disheartening and led to hating the whole mess, and after graduation, the only time attending mass was at weddings and funerals. However, I did feel God was still important, and when witnessed to at a cafe by a TWI WOW, jumped at the idea to once again do something God wanted me too. I ate PFAL up like a hungary kid. My bible had all the believing and faith markings, and anthing else heard in a tape or from a leader. However, after my branch leader and his wife died in a horrific car accident, and no leader had any intentions of raising them from the dead, but condemned them for missing the revelation God was attempting to give them to avoid the accident, my faith went South. I stuck around for years after that, only because of the fear of becoming a greasespot my midnight overtook me. When I filed for a divorce I was M&A so was forced to leave. Thank goodness I was finally out and able to recover sanity.
Being out and able to think for myself, started realizing the only actions I saw about God performing miracles, was in a book written thousands of years ago. Why no parting of water in a lake when people were overtaken in a storm? Why no water being turned into wine, or the hungry getting their meager food multiplied to them?
At this point, questioning the bible and God really made sense. I can’t put a label on the kind of unbeliever I am, but have determined God, Santa Clause, and the Easter Bunny are in the same class. I believe there is some kind of supernatural powers, but don’t believe anyone of them will ever be my savior. Like Sam Harris said, being an atheist allows me to expand my knowledge of life. I cannot explain it all for sure, but can study things I do not understand.
STL reading about the road you traveled helps me understand where you are coming from. Sorry for the tragedy and poor judgement and communication on the part of the Wayfer idiots. Please don’t take my banter as judging you or your position.
My journey has led me to reject fundamentalism but retain my faith as a Christian. Each of us has our unique journey.
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Nathan_Jr
The term is loaded and elusive and arbitrary, as the BT video points out. I don't identify as atheist, nor do I identify as theist.
I generally like what Sam Harris has to say about atheism.
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modcat5
Raf here.
Not long ago I decided to abandon the "agnostic atheist" label because it caused more arguments than it resolved.
Here's how I answer now: YOUR god is a fictional character whose non-existence is his ONLY redeeming quality. When it comes to YOUR god, I am an atheist with the certainty of a typist hitting the A key and expecting the letter A to show up on the page.
I can't speak about any other hypothetical gods, but they are irrelevant anyway because you only care if I believe in YOUR God. I don't. He's made up.
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Nathan_Jr
Bart Ehrman used to identify as "agnostic atheist."
Agnostic is a term I can get behind, but not as a label. I've said here before that I know next to nothing and embracing this not knowing leads to a healthier life experience. Either I know or I don't, and I am open to following to following the evidence, wherever it might lead.
Atheist, theist, agnostic... Whatever the label, it tells one little to nothing. I'm not sure these labels are helpful at all when one is trying to find out about another.
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Rocky
That's very intriguing (to me, anyway) Nathan. I offered up this thread not because I needed (or wanted) to know anything about anyone at GSC, but as food for thought.
I was raised Catholic in upstate NY until moving w/my mother and two siblings to Arizona. During most of that time in AZ before leaving for basic training, I identified as agnostic. However, I was entrenched in Christian culture anyway. I won't ramble on about my conversion to considering myself Christian.
My 12+ years in TWI and (independent) fellowships in the imprint of TWI thereafter ultimately turned me off to religion. Sure, I tried a church or two after no longer embracing the imprint of twi, but really I had no use for religion because of Victor/Loy and twi. For years, I've considered myself Deist, but really, I'm agnostic and leaning away from the concept of a personal God.
I don't need to tell people I could identify as Atheist. I just don't usually bother.
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Nathan_Jr
Right. I got that from the beginning. The food just brought me to the thought that labels are a product of our conditioning. Labels are insufficient and usually problematic, divisive and destructive for the labeler and the labeled. Whether we realize it or not, labels are constructed out of laziness, immaturity and a lack of clear thinking, intellectually and spiritually. Can we see this about ourselves?
One can not see what actually, truly is as long as one is artificially labeling. And one can never come upon that which is eternal, that which has no name, if one is always seeking to label according to one's conditioning, programming, indoctrination.
This was true in Bronze Age Palestine and it's true today.
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Stayed Too Long
I was raised a RC and did everything to be the best young man possible. Went to mass twice a day, being the alter boy at 6:30am low mass, and singing in the choir at the 8:15am high mass. After a number of years realizing all the masses, studying everyday after school, did nothing to make me closer to God. On the contrary, feeling nothing towards God was quite disheartening and led to hating the whole mess, and after graduation, the only time attending mass was at weddings and funerals. However, I did feel God was still important, and when witnessed to at a cafe by a TWI WOW, jumped at the idea to once again do something God wanted me too. I ate PFAL up like a hungary kid. My bible had all the believing and faith markings, and anthing else heard in a tape or from a leader. However, after my branch leader and his wife died in a horrific car accident, and no leader had any intentions of raising them from the dead, but condemned them for missing the revelation God was attempting to give them to avoid the accident, my faith went South. I stuck around for years after that, only because of the fear of becoming a greasespot my midnight overtook me. When I filed for a divorce I was M&A so was forced to leave. Thank goodness I was finally out and able to recover sanity.
Being out and able to think for myself, started realizing the only actions I saw about God performing miracles, was in a book written thousands of years ago. Why no parting of water in a lake when people were overtaken in a storm? Why no water being turned into wine, or the hungry getting their meager food multiplied to them?
At this point, questioning the bible and God really made sense. I can’t put a label on the kind of unbeliever I am, but have determined God, Santa Clause, and the Easter Bunny are in the same class. I believe there is some kind of supernatural powers, but don’t believe anyone of them will ever be my savior. Like Sam Harris said, being an atheist allows me to expand my knowledge of life. I cannot explain it all for sure, but can study things I do not understand.
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Nathan_Jr
What a horror story! Abject wickedness.
The leaders who condemned the your branch leader? Do you remember their names? Where they live?
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T-Bone
Thanks for sharing your story, STL – that’s some tough experiences
I’m not a big fan of putting labels on people anyway…since I left TWI and stopped doing that, I‘ve found I appreciate the perspective of others a lot more.
“being an atheist allows me to expand my knowledge of life. I cannot explain it all for sure, but can study things I do not understand”… kudos to you, man! Thanks for your input on numerous threads – I know belief-wise we’re a gazillion miles apart but folks like you help keep the journey to understand real and grounded.
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Stayed Too Long
I am really taxing my 75 year old memory attempting to recall the names of my branch leaders who died, let alone their bosses, an event that happened over 40 years ago. Neither names presently comes to mind amd probably never will.
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Nathan_Jr
No worries! It doesn't even matter. Just morbid curiosity. Great suffering and calamity has befallen those leaders who condemned the accidental death of your branch leaders. I was hoping to read the public records and news media chronicles of their demise.
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oldiesman
Raf, I have not been informed about your journey into atheism but would like to read about it, if you want to share it. Am genuinely curious as to what, where, how, why, etc.
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modcat5
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Stayed Too Long
I read an article recently asking why there even has to be a term for anyone not believing in god? If you don’t believe in the tooth fairly or santa clause there is no name applied to your unbelief.
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Nathan_Jr
Yes. I've heard the same argument. There is no term for anyone who doesn't believe in astrology, either.
The atheists I have known and read are simply unconvinced of any reason to believe in an any god. The theist says there are gods. The atheist says the theist's evidence for Zeus or Yahweh or Isis is insufficient. The atheist doesn't have to prove the negative, the burden of proof is on the theist for his positive claim.
Ultimately, it's up to each atheist what that term means for him. It's a loaded and misleading term. I don't find it very useful.
victor paul wierwille, cult founder and charlatan, said the atheist beleeeves that no god exists, so even the atheist is a beleeever in something. That's inaccurate. (Add it to the pile.) The atheist doesn't beleeeve at all because he hasn't found sufficient reason or evidence to beleeeve.
So it seems to me.
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Rocky
It seems to me, both STL and you (NathanJr) made good points. It also seems to me this is only an issue in Western Civilization because of Christianity being the dominant way society frames the issue. Then again, in Islamic regions of the world, people who don't believe in Islam and Allah are infidels, right?
IOW, it's all in how the society in which you live looks at it.
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Stayed Too Long
Rocky that is a good conclusion. At least in Christian and Islamic countries, a non believing person has a label placed on them.
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chockfull
STL reading about the road you traveled helps me understand where you are coming from. Sorry for the tragedy and poor judgement and communication on the part of the Wayfer idiots. Please don’t take my banter as judging you or your position.
My journey has led me to reject fundamentalism but retain my faith as a Christian. Each of us has our unique journey.
Peace.
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