Yes, I was being warped by the RC school system in my preteen youth, and at the same time conducted studies in Comparative Religions 101 with my Protestant playmates.
40 years ago the Deadheads had a reputation of being maximum irresponsible, and very spaced out. I was surprised to see the modern ones looking and acting so different than what I saw long ago.
40 years ago the Deadheads had a reputation of being maximum irresponsible, and very spaced out. I was surprised to see the modern ones looking and acting so different than what I saw long ago.
A lot of folks just grew up and went on to do their thing which you noted...also after the dead stopped touring a lot if not most of the youngsters started following Phish around...think the psychadelics went too.
Mike - as for the Churches. Is it better to have a Church with doctrinal issues but otherwise loves and feeds the flock the best they are able....or....have a Church that thinks it has all the doctrinal issues in check and figured out but has rampant sin and people get hurt, and on down the line.
Note: When I say rampant sin I am not talking about the private lives of attendees/members/whatever .. Im treating the Church as it's own entity and referring to the state of that entity on its own merits.
I just wanted you to know that I have finished all my backlog of responses, but have two left that I want to think more on how to answer. Here they are, just in case you want to add to them or edit for greater clarity.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*//*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Hi, my name is Oldskool and you now know someone who is an advocate of critical thinking skills and I know just what to do when the test is passed...It results in faith when applied to scripture. It never means its above question -- faith and inquiry are not mutually exclusive. Truth is truth...it should stand to questions at any point without folding, getting defensive, or whatever. Problem is when you apply critical thinking to wierwille and compare it with scripture (not wierwilles' version of scripture) wierwille usually doesnt stand as true. Sure, he has some truth...but a little leaven leaveneth the entire lump...not my words...but I have no problem repeating them in this context.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*//*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
OldSkool wrote:
Im not so sure I would call it an absolute truth. There is so much I don't understand on the topic that I refuse to close my mind off to other possibilities...for me it's a faith issue based on my limited understanding of scripture. There's God saying that man will die once he sins. Why would there be a need for resurections and all that stuff if everyone is alive already. I have faith in God's Word that dead=lack of consciousness or existance. Does that mean I understand everything on the subject or what actually happens when a person dies? No. So with that said, there's much to be understood that I simply don't know.
Mike - as for the Churches. Is it better to have a Church with doctrinal issues but otherwise loves and feeds the flock the best they are able....or....have a Church that thinks it has all the doctrinal issues in check and figured out but has rampant sin and people get hurt, and on down the line.
Note: When I say rampant sin I am not talking about the private lives of attendees/members/whatever .. Im treating the Church as it's own entity and referring to the state of that entity on its own merits.
No doubt in my mind that TWI-2 stood a better chance at success had VPW been the man he knew to be. But in spite of that, lots of us benefited from his TWI-1, and some benefited with TWI-2. When he walked with God, God was able to bless us big time.
Whenever he walked in fellowship, VPW had that same boost holy spirit provides all of us, even when we are "not walking so well lately."
I'm thankful that God allowed him back in fellowship faithfully, just like He does us every time we simply admit that we have sinned. First John Chapter 1 promises this clearly. Of course, then the repenting that follows helps us stay in fellowship longer, and with greater richness.
God gave us an example of His extreme grace and mercy with Paul, and I think He did the same thing, and even greater with VPW. Are the two demonstrations identical? Nope! Are they extreme in giving glory to God? Yes.
I think it is comforting for us to know that no matter how bad we blow it, we can ALWAYS come to ourselves and remember to return to our loving Father and resume our relationship with Him.
If you think you can do this better than VPW, that is great! Do it!
Do it again tomorrow!
There is no end to God's grace and mercy with us, especially when we turn our attention to His business of caring for His family.
If you think you can do this better than VPW, that is great! Do it!
Dude, without even trying most of us are doing better than Saint Vic. Most of us responding to you have never shown a "dog" film when it was known minors were present. Most of us have never used women the way Saint Vic did.
God gave us an example of His extreme grace and mercy with Paul, and I think He did the same thing, and even greater with VPW. Are the two demonstrations identical? Nope! Are they extreme in giving glory to God? Yes.
I think it is comforting for us to know that no matter how bad we blow it, we can ALWAYS come to ourselves and remember to return to our loving Father and resume our relationship with Him.
If you think you can do this better than VPW, that is great! Do it!
Do it again tomorrow!
There is no end to God's grace and mercy with us, especially when we turn our attention to His business of caring for His family.
And once again, why shouldn't we follow Saint Vic's example and do whatever we please (only not as extreme as Saint Vic) collecting grace?
And don't give the you won't get as many rewards line. You mean Saint Vic is going to get less rewards than I do?
I'm thankful that God allowed him back in fellowship faithfully, just like He does us every time we simply admit that we have sinned. First John Chapter 1 promises this clearly. Of course, then the repenting that follows helps us stay in fellowship longer, and with greater richness.
What was it vic said at the end of his life? Something about searching his mind for when or where he went wrong? He couldn't find anything. This doesn't sound like someone admitting or repenting anything, and it doesn't line up with wishing to be a man he knew to be.
It sounds more like those criminals who burst into tears at the sentencing stage of their trials. They aren't sorry for what they've done, they are only sorry for getting caught.
What was it vic said at the end of his life? Something about searching his mind for when or where he went wrong? He couldn't find anything. This doesn't sound like someone admitting or repenting anything, and it doesn't line up with wishing to be a man he knew to be.
It sounds more like those criminals who burst into tears at the sentencing stage of their trials. They aren't sorry for what they've done, they are only sorry for getting caught.
A poster here had spoken with someone who interacted a lot with vpw in his final weeks and especially his final hours. They passed along how, in the final few hours, vpw searched his memory actively, looking to find SOMETHING he'd done for which God would have disapproved, so that he could identify it, try to address it, and get his healing. He was convinced that he could be completely healed if only he could identify ANYTHING he'd done which would have displeased God.
Either the man was acting through the last few hours of his life, or he really couldn't find any wrongdoing in his own life.
If he was acting then, he was a fraud even through the final hours and minutes of his life. If he was sincere, then he looked back over decades of plagiarism, rape, molestation, drugging women, simony, displaying pornography to young folk (and occasionally minors), embezzling church funds for his own vices of alcohol and tobacco which actually killed him, and then said "I wonder what I could have done that would have displeased God?" Most of us who love God can usually point to something we've done which would have displeased God, and it would be something a LOT less minor, like not donating to the poor, or showing anger once to someone. Then again, this WAS a man of absolutes. When he discovered he had cancer, he claimed he'd previously never had a sick day in his life and had never taken an aspirin ever in his life. I find that very hard to swallow.
A poster here had spoken with someone who interacted a lot with vpw in his final weeks and especially his final hours. They passed along how, in the final few hours, vpw searched his memory actively, looking to find SOMETHING he'd done for which God would have disapproved, so that he could identify it, try to address it, and get his healing. He was convinced that he could be completely healed if only he could identify ANYTHING he'd done which would have displeased God.
Either the man was acting through the last few hours of his life, or he really couldn't find any wrongdoing in his own life.
If he was acting then, he was a fraud even through the final hours and minutes of his life. If he was sincere, then he looked back over decades of plagiarism, rape, molestation, drugging women, simony, displaying pornography to young folk (and occasionally minors), embezzling church funds for his own vices of alcohol and tobacco which actually killed him, and then said "I wonder what I could have done that would have displeased God?" Most of us who love God can usually point to something we've done which would have displeased God, and it would be something a LOT less minor, like not donating to the poor, or showing anger once to someone. Then again, this WAS a man of absolutes. When he discovered he had cancer, he claimed he'd previously never had a sick day in his life and had never taken an aspirin ever in his life. I find that very hard to swallow.
No doubt in my mind that TWI-2 stood a better chance at success had VPW been the man he knew to be. But in spite of that, lots of us benefited from his TWI-1, and some benefited with TWI-2. When he walked with God, God was able to bless us big time.
Whenever he walked in fellowship, VPW had that same boost holy spirit provides all of us, even when we are "not walking so well lately."
I'm thankful that God allowed him back in fellowship faithfully, just like He does us every time we simply admit that we have sinned. First John Chapter 1 promises this clearly. Of course, then the repenting that follows helps us stay in fellowship longer, and with greater richness.
God gave us an example of His extreme grace and mercy with Paul, and I think He did the same thing, and even greater with VPW. Are the two demonstrations identical? Nope! Are they extreme in giving glory to God? Yes.
I think it is comforting for us to know that no matter how bad we blow it, we can ALWAYS come to ourselves and remember to return to our loving Father and resume our relationship with Him.
If you think you can do this better than VPW, that is great! Do it!
Do it again tomorrow!
There is no end to God's grace and mercy with us, especially when we turn our attention to His business of caring for His family.
You cant confess his sins for him...he owed a public explanation. Honest churches respond in such fashion when their leadership sins against the congregation.
You cant confess his sins for him...he owed a public explanation. Honest churches respond in such fashion when their leadership sins against the congregation.
You can't un-confess his sins either, and you can in no way have ANY idea what went on between him and God. I place no stock in anonymous rumors of his last words on his last days.
*/*/*/*/*
We were not a regular church in any way. We were more like an army on a mission deep inside the devil's territory, planting collateral printings all over the world, with thousands of appreciative grads putting that material in their minds. There were also all kinds of inefficiencies like the TVTs that slowed the project at times and at places, and sin abd collateral damage that set back individuals' walks. But the job got done. The 1942 promise was fulfilled by mid 1985.
*/*/*/*/*
God will be the one to cover VPW's debt and calculate his rewards.
I found an interesting google passage:
Philemon owed a debt to Paul, his salvation.
Philemon was a man to whom Onesimus owed a debt,
but Philemon owed a debt as well.
Philemon's debt was greater than Onesimus' debt – his was an eternal debt to God. He also owed a debt to Paul for sharing the gospel with him,
so Philemon had a double debt.
If you need an accountant to figure all that out, so do I.
But I know that God will balance all the books and wipe away every tear soon.
God will be the one to cover VPW's debt and calculate his rewards.
I found an interesting google passage:
Philemon owed a debt to Paul, his salvation.
Philemon was a man to whom Onesimus owed a debt,
but Philemon owed a debt as well.
Philemon's debt was greater than Onesimus' debt – his was an eternal debt to God. He also owed a debt to Paul for sharing the gospel with him,
so Philemon had a double debt.
If you need an accountant to figure all that out, so do I.
But I know that God will balance all the books and wipe away every tear soon.
So what you're telling me in your usual long colluded way is that there's a possibility that a just God would give someone who's life ambition was to break every commandment in the book more rewards than an obedient person.
And don't give me that it's between him and God. Saint Vic apparently flaunted his sins, otherwise how would me know about them?
Now what kind of god would expect you to worship him when he was being so unjust?
You cant confess his sins for him...he owed a public explanation. Honest churches respond in such fashion when their leadership sins against the congregation.
You can't un-confess his sins either, and you can in no way have ANY idea what went on between him and God. I place no stock in anonymous rumors of his last words on his last days.
You put no stock in anything that disrupts your world view.
Next time you're going through the collaterals pay special attention to Paul's journey to Rome. You remind me a lot of him.
So what you're telling me in your usual long colluded way is that there's a possibility that a just God would give someone who's life ambition was to break every commandment in the book more rewards than an obedient person.
NO !!! I was thinking (and thought I wrote) just the opposite.
Please put me down for guessing LESS rewards, but knowing for sure that God knows how to be just in these matters.
You put no stock in anything that disrupts your world view.
Next time you're going through the collaterals pay special attention to Paul's journey to Rome. You remind me a lot of him.
Not true. The Schoenheit paper disrupted my world view, and I handled it; still am. I do remember feeling a little nausea the next day, though.
I mentioned here how my world view of the brain was disrupted around 1993, when one of the brain scientists I knew proved in a book to me that I had slowly drifted from what PFAL taught to the opposite, with out even knowing it. As I posted there my world view was rocked to have an unbelieving professor reprove me in writing, and send me back to getting the PFAL teaching correct again. I had drifted for 20 years to think that the brain and free will were in the spirit category. This professor's book disrupted my world view, and it helped me. Once I got over the shock, I actually loved it !!! More details to this are in the Determinism thread.
There have been other major rockings of my boat. Not as fun as the brain science one above, though. It was a big deal to decide to leave HQ in 1978.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Actually, I should mitigate my statement above about the anonymous rumor of last words. I don't know enough about that yet, and I only skimed WW's report above. My first and second impressions were to think anyone could have him say anything when it's unverifiable. Two witnesses would help.
Since there is that in the wind, I'd like to ask if anyone heard another rumor of his last words to his wife that were "Well, at least we got it all into writing."
Since there is that in the wind, I'd like to ask if anyone heard another rumor of his last words to his wife that were "Well, at least we got it all into writing."
I think I know who started this rumor. I can tell you the source of this rumor is unreliable.
HOWEVER, it seems to fit with the other last words, so it's plausible he could have said something like this.
You can't un-confess his sins either, and you can in no way have ANY idea what went on between him and God. I place no stock in anonymous rumors of his last words on his last days.
I know what never occured between him and the congregation and by all accounts he was struggling to see what he had done wrong at the end of his life....with that said I don't think it matters that I dont know what went on between him and God.
How could I possibly know ???
I leave that to God, and I know He will be just.
Why do you think I am that stupid?
Where do you get the impression I would think that way?
I don't think that way.
Ok? Are you going to believe?
And yet, you reject the testimony of ONE eyewitness, and hold to the conviction that vpw had leveled with God Almighty in his final hours based on the testimony of ZERO eyewitnesses.
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outandabout
I copied the emotion graph and wanted to comment on how it made me aware of the wide range of emotions we as humans are capable of. A little off topic but looking at it reminds me that we were taught
WordWolf
It's also interesting to see what happened and what did NOT happen. We all know that vpw never went to his congregation and confessed his sins against them. That would have been required after havi
chockfull
I think when VPW taught that sincerity is no guarantee for the truth that is what they call a “Freudian slip”.
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OldSkool
Gotcha.
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Nathan_Jr
Only now?
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Mike
40 years ago the Deadheads had a reputation of being maximum irresponsible, and very spaced out. I was surprised to see the modern ones looking and acting so different than what I saw long ago.
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OldSkool
A lot of folks just grew up and went on to do their thing which you noted...also after the dead stopped touring a lot if not most of the youngsters started following Phish around...think the psychadelics went too.
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OldSkool
Mike - as for the Churches. Is it better to have a Church with doctrinal issues but otherwise loves and feeds the flock the best they are able....or....have a Church that thinks it has all the doctrinal issues in check and figured out but has rampant sin and people get hurt, and on down the line.
Note: When I say rampant sin I am not talking about the private lives of attendees/members/whatever .. Im treating the Church as it's own entity and referring to the state of that entity on its own merits.
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Mike
I just wanted you to know that I have finished all my backlog of responses, but have two left that I want to think more on how to answer. Here they are, just in case you want to add to them or edit for greater clarity.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*//*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Hi, my name is Oldskool and you now know someone who is an advocate of critical thinking skills and I know just what to do when the test is passed...It results in faith when applied to scripture. It never means its above question -- faith and inquiry are not mutually exclusive. Truth is truth...it should stand to questions at any point without folding, getting defensive, or whatever. Problem is when you apply critical thinking to wierwille and compare it with scripture (not wierwilles' version of scripture) wierwille usually doesnt stand as true. Sure, he has some truth...but a little leaven leaveneth the entire lump...not my words...but I have no problem repeating them in this context.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*//*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
OldSkool wrote:
Im not so sure I would call it an absolute truth. There is so much I don't understand on the topic that I refuse to close my mind off to other possibilities...for me it's a faith issue based on my limited understanding of scripture. There's God saying that man will die once he sins. Why would there be a need for resurections and all that stuff if everyone is alive already. I have faith in God's Word that dead=lack of consciousness or existance. Does that mean I understand everything on the subject or what actually happens when a person dies? No. So with that said, there's much to be understood that I simply don't know.
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Mike
No doubt in my mind that TWI-2 stood a better chance at success had VPW been the man he knew to be. But in spite of that, lots of us benefited from his TWI-1, and some benefited with TWI-2. When he walked with God, God was able to bless us big time.
Whenever he walked in fellowship, VPW had that same boost holy spirit provides all of us, even when we are "not walking so well lately."
I'm thankful that God allowed him back in fellowship faithfully, just like He does us every time we simply admit that we have sinned. First John Chapter 1 promises this clearly. Of course, then the repenting that follows helps us stay in fellowship longer, and with greater richness.
God gave us an example of His extreme grace and mercy with Paul, and I think He did the same thing, and even greater with VPW. Are the two demonstrations identical? Nope! Are they extreme in giving glory to God? Yes.
I think it is comforting for us to know that no matter how bad we blow it, we can ALWAYS come to ourselves and remember to return to our loving Father and resume our relationship with Him.
If you think you can do this better than VPW, that is great! Do it!
Do it again tomorrow!
There is no end to God's grace and mercy with us, especially when we turn our attention to His business of caring for His family.
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So_crates
Dude, without even trying most of us are doing better than Saint Vic. Most of us responding to you have never shown a "dog" film when it was known minors were present. Most of us have never used women the way Saint Vic did.
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So_crates
And once again, why shouldn't we follow Saint Vic's example and do whatever we please (only not as extreme as Saint Vic) collecting grace?
And don't give the you won't get as many rewards line. You mean Saint Vic is going to get less rewards than I do?
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Nathan_Jr
What was it vic said at the end of his life? Something about searching his mind for when or where he went wrong? He couldn't find anything. This doesn't sound like someone admitting or repenting anything, and it doesn't line up with wishing to be a man he knew to be.
It sounds more like those criminals who burst into tears at the sentencing stage of their trials. They aren't sorry for what they've done, they are only sorry for getting caught.
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WordWolf
A poster here had spoken with someone who interacted a lot with vpw in his final weeks and especially his final hours. They passed along how, in the final few hours, vpw searched his memory actively, looking to find SOMETHING he'd done for which God would have disapproved, so that he could identify it, try to address it, and get his healing. He was convinced that he could be completely healed if only he could identify ANYTHING he'd done which would have displeased God.
Either the man was acting through the last few hours of his life, or he really couldn't find any wrongdoing in his own life.
If he was acting then, he was a fraud even through the final hours and minutes of his life. If he was sincere, then he looked back over decades of plagiarism, rape, molestation, drugging women, simony, displaying pornography to young folk (and occasionally minors), embezzling church funds for his own vices of alcohol and tobacco which actually killed him, and then said "I wonder what I could have done that would have displeased God?" Most of us who love God can usually point to something we've done which would have displeased God, and it would be something a LOT less minor, like not donating to the poor, or showing anger once to someone. Then again, this WAS a man of absolutes. When he discovered he had cancer, he claimed he'd previously never had a sick day in his life and had never taken an aspirin ever in his life. I find that very hard to swallow.
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmmph
Thanks, WordWolf.
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OldSkool
You cant confess his sins for him...he owed a public explanation. Honest churches respond in such fashion when their leadership sins against the congregation.
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Mike
You can't un-confess his sins either, and you can in no way have ANY idea what went on between him and God. I place no stock in anonymous rumors of his last words on his last days.
*/*/*/*/*
We were not a regular church in any way. We were more like an army on a mission deep inside the devil's territory, planting collateral printings all over the world, with thousands of appreciative grads putting that material in their minds. There were also all kinds of inefficiencies like the TVTs that slowed the project at times and at places, and sin abd collateral damage that set back individuals' walks. But the job got done. The 1942 promise was fulfilled by mid 1985.
*/*/*/*/*
God will be the one to cover VPW's debt and calculate his rewards.
I found an interesting google passage:
Philemon owed a debt to Paul, his salvation.
Philemon was a man to whom Onesimus owed a debt,
but Philemon owed a debt as well.
Philemon's debt was greater than Onesimus' debt
– his was an eternal debt to God.
He also owed a debt to Paul for sharing the gospel with him,
so Philemon had a double debt.
If you need an accountant to figure all that out, so do I.
But I know that God will balance all the books and wipe away every tear soon.
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waysider
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So_crates
So what you're telling me in your usual long colluded way is that there's a possibility that a just God would give someone who's life ambition was to break every commandment in the book more rewards than an obedient person.
And don't give me that it's between him and God. Saint Vic apparently flaunted his sins, otherwise how would me know about them?
Now what kind of god would expect you to worship him when he was being so unjust?
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So_crates
I'd also give this post 10 upvotes if I could.
+10
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So_crates
You put no stock in anything that disrupts your world view.
Next time you're going through the collaterals pay special attention to Paul's journey to Rome. You remind me a lot of him.
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Mike
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Mike
Not true. The Schoenheit paper disrupted my world view, and I handled it; still am. I do remember feeling a little nausea the next day, though.
I mentioned here how my world view of the brain was disrupted around 1993, when one of the brain scientists I knew proved in a book to me that I had slowly drifted from what PFAL taught to the opposite, with out even knowing it. As I posted there my world view was rocked to have an unbelieving professor reprove me in writing, and send me back to getting the PFAL teaching correct again. I had drifted for 20 years to think that the brain and free will were in the spirit category. This professor's book disrupted my world view, and it helped me. Once I got over the shock, I actually loved it !!! More details to this are in the Determinism thread.
There have been other major rockings of my boat. Not as fun as the brain science one above, though. It was a big deal to decide to leave HQ in 1978.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Actually, I should mitigate my statement above about the anonymous rumor of last words. I don't know enough about that yet, and I only skimed WW's report above. My first and second impressions were to think anyone could have him say anything when it's unverifiable. Two witnesses would help.
Since there is that in the wind, I'd like to ask if anyone heard another rumor of his last words to his wife that were "Well, at least we got it all into writing."
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Mike
How could I possibly know ???
I leave that to God, and I know He will be just.
Why do you think I am that stupid?
Where do you get the impression I would think that way?
I don't think that way.
Ok? Are you going to believe?
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Nathan_Jr
I think I know who started this rumor. I can tell you the source of this rumor is unreliable.
HOWEVER, it seems to fit with the other last words, so it's plausible he could have said something like this.
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OldSkool
I know what never occured between him and the congregation and by all accounts he was struggling to see what he had done wrong at the end of his life....with that said I don't think it matters that I dont know what went on between him and God.
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WordWolf
And yet, you reject the testimony of ONE eyewitness, and hold to the conviction that vpw had leveled with God Almighty in his final hours based on the testimony of ZERO eyewitnesses.
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