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On 1/14/2024 at 5:58 PM, Stayed Too Long said:

“There is a lot of terms” for sure in the RC religion, many that no other religions even acknowledge or know/care about. 

Seems to me all religions are filled with words that all other religions don't know/care about, but most old religious traditions do include near-equivalents to Purgatory as both a state of being and an actual location associated with the dead. Naraka, Diyu, Tir Na Nog, etc.. As with the ecosystems of Catholicity, each is a living and unique response and expression of human encounters with the many fields and layers of life beyond life. And as with Catholicism, most are old enough to have long been hollowed out and filled with surface ideas and applications nearly utterly divorced from these kinds of roots, providing poor examples of the original ancestral wisdom, leaving us mostly naked, lost and afraid in our mortality, grief and shame. In this, we have mostly replaced living practices and direct experience for mere explanations of distant things. Yet, it seems within each religion there are folks in touch with those deeper strands. fwiw

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I'm glad we have the god given ability to see things like heaven in our minds, and by being there. Even if it's not quite the way we think it is, we will be corrected soon enough.

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Former RC here, had a very good education in the RC doctrine. This was in the 50's and 60's. Kinda dropped off the rack about 1965. I don't embrace the religion but I appreciate the community and the way they've designed their church service buildings. 

My take is that RC's developed their doctrines on hell, purgatory, satan and their view of heaven from a mix of early Christian records and doctrines, Jewish history, Roman philosophy and dieties and ancient Egyptian mythologies. The history of Christianity includes Roman influence, Constantine making it a legally recognized "state" religion. It all gets a long way from the Gospel records and the earliest epistles that spread the new doctrine of salvation in a faith in Christ. 

Me? I believe that some of all that just reflects the simple realities of what we in fact see in natural life - humans die and our bodies turn to dust. If we're buried we are in the ground, in the dark and we have no consciousness that we know of. Dead bodies exposed to the elements look deformed and misshapen and frightening. The grave, the holes in the ground, the disposal and destruction of the human remains - all that's cold, dark, terrible. 

Our consciousness isn't there anymore, at least as far as we know. The "me" of my life is somewhere else. Interestingly the body that my consciousness was in and knew, that hurt, got tired, was in pain or had pleasure, is gone. So any sense of "me" having any experience with it in a post-death existence wouldn't seem possible. So - what's this post Me, and what's it doing if in fact it's doing anything at all...? 

Good question. My impression is that the idea - idea only - of a purgatory, might be seen in the process of our lives after death and over a future time. Not in a punishment or pseudo hell way or any of that but - if we do in fact die and lose consciousness but have a future restoration of it, in "new" bodies, there will be a process of purification that occurs where by our pneuma hagion fueled consciousness will have shed all past references to these bodies and this new life consciousness will inhabit a new body. 

I'll spare dragging out all the verses in Corinthians and Thessalonians, etc etc that we all probably know, but I derived that from what's in the Bible. It seems to be similar to the process Jesus Christ went through - lived, died, resurrected, lived, ascended to the right hand of God (whatever that really means) If we follow suit in this timeline we have from here, it will be a process of change that will ultimately produce the New Me, in a "3rd heaven and 3rd earth". 

YMMV. Peace and plenty, to all. 

 

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On 1/27/2024 at 8:06 PM, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea

I think the new heaven and earth are already there and has been for a long time, continuing to be more populated every day.

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2 hours ago, cman said:

I think the new heaven and earth are already there and has been for a long time, continuing to be more populated every day.

Indeed. It may be, as I suspect, that the grand tour of the Apocalypse is not merely about future events, but rather a illumination of ongoing Processes, including the processes, patterns and stages of inner life, which includes of course how these inner conditions and changes impact the outer world. The book seems more like a user manual than mere list of predictions, although clearer discernment of inner processes and their impacts on the outer world does also lend to seeing clearer trajectories in outer events, increasing our capacity to predict things. These are not one-time events, but rather patterns that repeat as the conditions support them, which is perhaps why folks for millenia who try to apply the symbols and archetypes to specific literal one-time events are constantly mostly wrong. 

Also, the history of Catholicism is quite full of rich diversity. Often ignored or misunderstood by protestant leaning beliefs are the contemplative and monastic orders and disciplines, such as Franciscan, Cistercian, Benedictine, etc.. These include folks who do not always fit the standard current mainstream Catholic codes in belief or practice about Purgatory or anything else. 

Purgatory and the Apocalypse also reminds me of these: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo_Thodol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo

"In some schools of Buddhism, bardo (Classical Tibetan: བར་དོ་ Wylie: bar do) or antarābhava (Sanskrit, Chinese and Japanese: 中有, romanized in Chinese as zhōng yǒu and in Japanese as chū'u)[1] is an intermediate, transitional, or liminal state between death and rebirth. The concept arose soon after Gautama Buddha's death, with a number of earlier Buddhist schools accepting the existence of such an intermediate state, while other schools rejected it. The concept of antarābhava, an intervening state between death and rebirth, was brought into Buddhism from the Vedic-Upanishadic (later Hindu) philosophical tradition.[2][3] Later Buddhism expanded the bardo concept to six or more states of consciousness covering every stage of life and death.[4] In Tibetan Buddhism, bardo is the central theme of the Bardo Thodol (literally Liberation Through Hearing During the Intermediate State), the Tibetan Book of the Dead, a text intended to both guide the recently deceased person through the death bardo to gain a better rebirth and also to help their loved ones with the grieving process.[5]"

Wondering about life after death is like the unborn wondering about life after birth. We come out screaming bloody murder because it feels like dying, yet the scope and variety of life after birth is many many magnitudes more than life in the womb (like seed versus tree), and that great cloud of ancestral witnesses are like the nurses, midwives and relatives in the waiting room. And, while the personal ego may not survive death, it may be that other forms of life after death are overwhelmingly MORE (in both scope and variety) than what we are experiencing now. And, as with birth, where there is no guarantee a newborn lives to see its first birthday, or with sprouting seeds, where there is no guarantee it flowers, the newly dead are not immediately done with their growth. The potential of life without end is simply that. Thus, notions like Purgatory and the Bardo. 

Edited by sirguessalot
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8 hours ago, sirguessalot said:

These are not one-time events, but rather patterns that repeat as the conditions support them, which is perhaps why folks for millenia who try to apply the symbols and archetypes to specific literal one-time events are constantly mostly wrong. 

awesome...along with the rest of your post here...

Not only repeating but multiple overlaps as well and seen together as a gathering together of greatness, the greatness of the spirit...... Christ coming.

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Revelation 21:1-4

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."   New King James Version
 

I wonder if in the current age or period of time that we live now in the current earth. Will this help us have no pain:asdf: I do not think this will help us have no pain.

 

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
I can not now write any text below the quoted scripture.
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16 minutes ago, sirguessalot said:

If I may ask...what are you thinking won't help us have no pain? Those Bible verses? or...?

In the new heaven and new earth. The bible says, we will have no pain.

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Revelation 21:4

4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."   New King James Version

In the new heaven and new earth things will be MUCH BETTER than it is now with even no wars. There will be MUCH MORE PEACE than we have now, especially between nations. Especially when Jesus Christ returns to earth and has MUCH more earthly or worldly authority than He has now in this age or period of time with the devil and demons able to whisper into people's ears for deception. I figuratively call the demons and devil, spiritual pixss ants or gnats. Miss spelling because I was not able to spell the word for when we go to the bathroom and do what we often need to do to remove liquid from our physical bodies.   

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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1 hour ago, cman said:

So you are having pain when you urinate?

I think you're stuck in a twi doctrine loop. Snap out of it. Sheesh

At least 100% FALSENESS. 

cman simply wants to type the last message when ever he types on a Grease Spat Cafe forum. As an example of falseness. In the biblical teaching book that I wrote, as I was leaving TWI in the last years of the 1980s, I began the writing of the chapter, "Lordship of Jesus Christ Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man". Then I handed to TWI people paper copies of this article. The main doctrine that I opposed was their hierarchy structure. In quoting from the current revised book chapter is the following:

"Today we have false doctrines such as the pope being the Vicar of Christ, or that by our minds renewed to God’s word we take the place of the absent Christ, as was taught in the Christian organization I used to associate with."

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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Thinking of purgatory, looking at different uses of flame, lake of fire, burning bush, flaming sword, and all that is very interesting, I think there is some fire involved big time in god almighty

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The word "fire" from the New Testament was translated from the Greek word beginning with "pur" and "puros" as a part of speech. The first part of the definition of this Greek word from VINE'S EXPOSITORY DICTIONARY is the following:  

(a) of the holiness of God, which consumes all that is inconsistent therewith, Hebrews 10:27; 12:29; cf. Revelation 1:14; 2:18; 10:1; 15:2; 19:12; similarly of the holy angels as His ministers Hebrews 1:7 in Revelation 3:18 it is symbolic of that which tries the faith of saints, producing what will glorify the Lord:

(b) of the divine judgment, testing the deeds of believers, at the judgment seat of Christ 1 Corinthians 3:13 and 15:
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

Since "pur" begins with the same letters as "purgatory". This could be why the Roman Catholic Church came up with the word "purgatory".
 

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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"purity purify pure yeah, fire does that?"

Yes. Ask any blacksmith.   Ask anyone who's seen a blacksmith work.  This was well-known back then, since smithing was common back then.  For that matter, whitesmiths knew it, too.  

Psalms 12:6

6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

 

Anyone familiar with either smithing or smelting will understand this, and that was done by hand back then, which made it common knowledge.

Malachi 3:2-3

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

 

Silver was seen as a "pure" metal, and God was said to purify silver.    Here we also see soap mentioned as a purifying agent. If it's not clear how soap cleanses, I can't help.

 

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On 2/9/2024 at 11:46 PM, WordWolf said:

Silver was seen as a "pure" metal, and God was said to purify silver.    Here we also see soap mentioned as a purifying agent. If it's not clear how soap cleanses, I can't help

Since soap is used for physical cleaning. Soap could figuratively represent spiritual cleaning or purification through God and his Son Jesus Christ. The book of Malachi, the last book of the Old Testament, looks prophetic for Jesus Christ.

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5 minutes ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Since soap is used for physical cleaning. Soap could figuratively represent spiritual cleaning or purification through God and his Son Jesus Christ. The book of Malachi, the last book of the Old Testament, looks prophetic for Jesus Christ.

All I can say to this is, if the Lord wants to wash my mouth and heart out with His kind of soap for however long he pleases, I will gladly submit myself to all that He desires of me and accept all that He permits to happen to me.

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2 hours ago, oldiesman said:

All I can say to this is, if the Lord wants to wash my mouth and heart out with His kind of soap for however long he pleases, I will gladly submit myself to all that He desires of me and accept all that He permits to happen to me.

That's a very stoic sentiment you put forth, Oldies? My perspective is the bible is all story. Clearly there are still some on this thread who hew to the fundamentalist way of trying to figure out what's going to happen in the future... by looking at concordances and such.

BUT... accepting what comes your way in life is a very (emotionally) healthy approach overall anyway. Put another way, as Stoicism writer Ryan Holiday put it, Stillness is the key. Regardless of your believe in or denial of purgatory, I appreciate your Stoic reflection on the subject.

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On 2/8/2024 at 7:26 PM, Mark Sanguinetti said:

The word "fire" from the New Testament was translated from the Greek word beginning with "pur" and "puros" as a part of speech. The first part of the definition of this Greek word from VINE'S EXPOSITORY DICTIONARY is the following:  

(a) of the holiness of God, which consumes all that is inconsistent therewith, Hebrews 10:27; 12:29; cf. Revelation 1:14; 2:18; 10:1; 15:2; 19:12; similarly of the holy angels as His ministers Hebrews 1:7 in Revelation 3:18 it is symbolic of that which tries the faith of saints, producing what will glorify the Lord:

(b) of the divine judgment, testing the deeds of believers, at the judgment seat of Christ 1 Corinthians 3:13 and 15:
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

Since "pur" begins with the same letters as "purgatory". This could be why the Roman Catholic Church came up with the word "purgatory".
 

So with RC history the pattern seems to be accept, accommodate, and integrate.  An intermediate state between death and judgement keeps the followers in dynamic tension allowing for a greater level of control.  Do good?  Pay your toll?  You advance.  Don’t pay your toll?  Everlasting hellfire buddy!

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It may also be that the competence of John's baptism strongly involved the seemingly "magic" and "cultic" but actually quite pragmatic medicinal impacts of hygiene, where the competence of Christ's fire was more akin to the kind of medicine that heals when there is no cure, which involves washing in the inner flames of realities like grief, guilt, humiliation and most specifically, shame, and the depth and degrees of our capacities to touch, hold and handle any of this is what keeps us from both eden and paradise. In this light (NOT counting the dead), one might even say that there are currently maybe billions of living souls on Earth drowning tormented in such an inner lake of fire right now. Meanwhile, there are also maybe millions alive walking in the very same fire. 

Which is perhaps also why "fire" seems to have long been a living metaphor in the contexts of end-of-life care-giving and companionship (in what other field is the harvest so plentious and the laborers so few?), and is firmly rooted in a "healing the healer" approach, or medicine for the "wounded healer." Communities of the devoted to supporting each other in doing their inner work so they cause even less harm. Essential baseline mode of care for anyone wanting to heal (or lead or teach) anyone else. This deeper history of hospitals, nursing and medicine runs through the Gospels. Quite revolutionary in times of mass avoidance and fixers run amuck. 

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8 hours ago, chockfull said:

So with RC history the pattern seems to be accept, accommodate, and integrate.

(snip)

Often, I would say.

However, since Oldiesman posts here, and he's currently a Roman Catholic, and this is not an RCC survivor's messageboard, there's no compelling reason to take shots at his denomination.  Let's consider posting with a little kindness, instead. 

(I'm not in complete accord with the RCC myself, but I don't have to just load the old shotgun whenever they're mentioned.  Even if I am EX-RCC.)

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