Just trying to understand how poking fun at the logical conclusions of atheism is a worse offense that calling some Christian groups preposterous, pretentious and extreme prophetic phoniness.
Maybe you can guide me in this nuance?
That's easy. Neither is considered acceptable- at least in this forum, there's a smidge of leeway in some specific fora- but the person who started escalated everything. Had your response been to someone's comment, I would have reminded the other person to behave. None of these posts are secret, so it's sensible that anyone I don't remind by name can still be reminded when they see it brought up.
Oh, "poking fun." It that like "the boys having a little fun" when they hit or insulted "the darkies" some time ago in the deep South? That wasn't meant to be offensive, either, but it sure as heck was. If you think someone has "logical conclusions" in their doctrine, feel free to post about it in the appropriate forum. There's an entire forum that's perfect for that one. In this one, unless the doctrine is "vpw didn't rape anyone, didn't plagiarize, wasn't an alcoholic and didn't teach lcm to be twofold the child of hades that vpw was", then it's off-topic.
So, obviously, everyone- mentioned or not- should remember that, and back off on doctrines, beliefs, coda, etc in this forum.
See, now this is interesting. I was never told the backstory. I was really disappointed in '93 because my young nephew joined me at the Rock that year. Everyone knows what it's like trying to communicate your faith or the reasons for your faith. Well, the Rock was nothing like I told him it was. It just wasn't worth it. Now I know why.
If you'd have asked, I would have mentioned it sooner. Questions are welcome here. Either you'll get an answer, or possibly some links to whole discussions of the answer. Or the names of several threads with whole discussions.
If you'd have asked, I would have mentioned it sooner. Questions are welcome here. Either you'll get an answer, or possibly some links to whole discussions of the answer. Or the names of several threads with whole discussions.
It's called a conversation. Things come out bit by but if some self appointed enforcer doesn't blow the whole thing up when someone comes along with a little push back
Unfortunately, Chockful evidently got tired of it. I've got .... and vinegar for miles.
Chockfull got tired of an imaginary persecution he/she could not document except by blatantly lying about multiple people's experience in this board.
Alright, I just glanced at that thread. Still, some seem kind of uptight- like, 'oooohhhh, don't cross that line'
So, we toss it back and forth a little, so what? I can't really tell if the criticism is objective or if it's because I'm scoring points?
Tough pill to swallow. All of us were brimming with faith at some point. Some continued on with timeless, scared truths. Others of us got wounded and became entrenched in a protective, adversarial belief system.
I don't know who said it but the way to fix a wrong turn is to go back to the place it was made (well, I guess there could be a shortcut). That can be a tough pill. As the O' Jays sang, 'if you miss it, I feel sorry, sorry for you.' We weren't wrong when we believed.
I think you know that twi will have none of the preposterous, pretentious and extreme prophetic phoniness that ministries like Morningstar (and IHOPKC, Gateway Church, Bethel Church, and others) prosper in, but they all do share in twi's history of there being sexual abuse. Now, do they all practice lovebombing like twi - that I do not know.
So here's the exact wording Joyful cited.
This was, of course, MANY posts after Joyful's broadside against atheists, so he can't honestly portray his comment as a response.
In any event, specific or even general criticisms of ministry practices are not nearly the same thing as bigoted comments about all or most Christians, and don't deserve to be treated as such.
I appreciate your judgmentalism about how uptight people are when it comes to this site's moderation. It really keeps me up, sometimes, wondering what you think of whether and how we enforce site rules.
But rest assured, if we ever REALLY need to know we'll ask you.
I think you know that twi will have none of the preposterous, pretentious and extreme prophetic phoniness that ministries like Morningstar (and IHOPKC, Gateway Church, Bethel Church, and others) prosper in, but they all do share in twi's history of there being sexual abuse. Now, do they all practice lovebombing like twi - that I do not know.
21 hours ago, Charity said:
You know nothing about what I do or do not know. What I said about those groups can easily be documented. I will do so if you're interested but not tonight - it's too late.
13 hours ago, JoyfulSoul said:
Just trying to understand how poking fun at the logical conclusions of atheism is a worse offense that calling some Christian groups preposterous, pretentious and extreme prophetic phoniness.
Maybe you can guide me in this nuance?
My post was about the prophetic phoniness (with a few extra adjectives added) that certain ministries prosper in.
Your reply made it about the ministries themselves.
Slight, but important, difference. I was aiming solely with the prophetic practices of these groups - not all the practices. These are the specific practices that I planned to document for you.
I think you know that twi will have none of the preposterous, pretentious and extreme prophetic phoniness that ministries like Morningstar (and IHOPKC, Gateway Church, Bethel Church, and others) prosper in, but they all do share in twi's history of there being sexual abuse. Now, do they all practice lovebombing like twi - that I do not know.
21 hours ago, Charity said:
You know nothing about what I do or do not know. What I said about those groups can easily be documented. I will do so if you're interested but not tonight - it's too late.
13 hours ago, JoyfulSoul said:
Just trying to understand how poking fun at the logical conclusions of atheism is a worse offense that calling some Christian groups preposterous, pretentious and extreme prophetic phoniness.
Maybe you can guide me in this nuance?
2 hours ago, Raf said:
So here's the exact wording Joyful cited.
This was, of course, MANY posts after Joyful's broadside against atheists, so he can't honestly portray his comment as a response.
In any event, specific or even general criticisms of ministry practices are not nearly the same thing as bigoted comments about all or most Christians, and don't deserve to be treated as such.
If I were to go ahead with the documentation, it would be about ministries other than twi, offshoots of twi or cults. Would it be best to do so then in the Open forum or the Doctrinal: Exploring the Bible sub-forum? (Mind you, there is not a lot of scriptural support for the documentation since it's pretty much man made doctrines and practices.)
Other than doing so specifically in response to JoyfulSoul's post, the documentation sheds a light on what leaders of these mega churches are saying and doing.
I think the bottom line is, nothing Charity said amounts to a broad attack on Christians in general that warrants a pre-emptive retaliatory attack on atheists.
I can understand where you are coming from making such a statement, since believer’s think one can only experience joy by what is written in a book written thousands of years ago. They rationalize the only way of knowing if something is right or wrong is by reading it chapter and verse from this book. They also must read, apparently, what joy is to bevable to experience it.
As an atheist I can tell you i have not experienced so much joy since no longer relying on god. I find joy in everyday living doing the things necessary to live. Family and friends play a significant role in my happiness and it doesn’t matter what their religious beliefs might be.
Plus I no longer have to be concerned if I am pleasing god or not.
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Oakspear
Almost thou persuadest me to be an atheist
Raf
WW kind of sideswiped a theory I've been working under for the past few years. I've brought it up before but it bears repeating. I have a suspicion (not enough evidence to call it a theory) that
waysider
That's really big brush you're painting with there.
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WordWolf
That's easy. Neither is considered acceptable- at least in this forum, there's a smidge of leeway in some specific fora- but the person who started escalated everything. Had your response been to someone's comment, I would have reminded the other person to behave. None of these posts are secret, so it's sensible that anyone I don't remind by name can still be reminded when they see it brought up.
Oh, "poking fun." It that like "the boys having a little fun" when they hit or insulted "the darkies" some time ago in the deep South? That wasn't meant to be offensive, either, but it sure as heck was. If you think someone has "logical conclusions" in their doctrine, feel free to post about it in the appropriate forum. There's an entire forum that's perfect for that one. In this one, unless the doctrine is "vpw didn't rape anyone, didn't plagiarize, wasn't an alcoholic and didn't teach lcm to be twofold the child of hades that vpw was", then it's off-topic.
So, obviously, everyone- mentioned or not- should remember that, and back off on doctrines, beliefs, coda, etc in this forum.
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WordWolf
If you'd have asked, I would have mentioned it sooner. Questions are welcome here. Either you'll get an answer, or possibly some links to whole discussions of the answer. Or the names of several threads with whole discussions.
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JoyfulSoul
It's called a conversation. Things come out bit by but if some self appointed enforcer doesn't blow the whole thing up when someone comes along with a little push back
Unfortunately, Chockful evidently got tired of it. I've got .... and vinegar for miles.
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Raf
Chockfull got tired of an imaginary persecution he/she could not document except by blatantly lying about multiple people's experience in this board.
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JoyfulSoul
Alright, I just glanced at that thread. Still, some seem kind of uptight- like, 'oooohhhh, don't cross that line'
So, we toss it back and forth a little, so what? I can't really tell if the criticism is objective or if it's because I'm scoring points?
Tough pill to swallow. All of us were brimming with faith at some point. Some continued on with timeless, scared truths. Others of us got wounded and became entrenched in a protective, adversarial belief system.
I don't know who said it but the way to fix a wrong turn is to go back to the place it was made (well, I guess there could be a shortcut). That can be a tough pill. As the O' Jays sang, 'if you miss it, I feel sorry, sorry for you.' We weren't wrong when we believed.
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Raf
So here's the exact wording Joyful cited.
This was, of course, MANY posts after Joyful's broadside against atheists, so he can't honestly portray his comment as a response.
In any event, specific or even general criticisms of ministry practices are not nearly the same thing as bigoted comments about all or most Christians, and don't deserve to be treated as such.
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Raf
I appreciate your judgmentalism about how uptight people are when it comes to this site's moderation. It really keeps me up, sometimes, wondering what you think of whether and how we enforce site rules.
But rest assured, if we ever REALLY need to know we'll ask you.
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JoyfulSoul
The mob can dish it out. Taking it? Not so much.
I started reading the thread I started to find out why it felt right to be a 'bit' punchy. Lots of snarky and it didn't start with me.
It's a balancing act. I'll withdraw from this thread just as I did the other. It was an interesting conversation. Now, I'm done.
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Raf
Same pattern.
Break the clear site rules.
Find out no one's going to put up with it.
Claim bias and persecution and run off pretending to be taking the high ground.
It was a nice try.
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waysider
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Charity
My post was about the prophetic phoniness (with a few extra adjectives added) that certain ministries prosper in.
Your reply made it about the ministries themselves.
Slight, but important, difference. I was aiming solely with the prophetic practices of these groups - not all the practices. These are the specific practices that I planned to document for you.
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Charity
If I were to go ahead with the documentation, it would be about ministries other than twi, offshoots of twi or cults. Would it be best to do so then in the Open forum or the Doctrinal: Exploring the Bible sub-forum? (Mind you, there is not a lot of scriptural support for the documentation since it's pretty much man made doctrines and practices.)
Other than doing so specifically in response to JoyfulSoul's post, the documentation sheds a light on what leaders of these mega churches are saying and doing.
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Raf
I think the bottom line is, nothing Charity said amounts to a broad attack on Christians in general that warrants a pre-emptive retaliatory attack on atheists.
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Stayed Too Long
I can understand where you are coming from making such a statement, since believer’s think one can only experience joy by what is written in a book written thousands of years ago. They rationalize the only way of knowing if something is right or wrong is by reading it chapter and verse from this book. They also must read, apparently, what joy is to bevable to experience it.
As an atheist I can tell you i have not experienced so much joy since no longer relying on god. I find joy in everyday living doing the things necessary to live. Family and friends play a significant role in my happiness and it doesn’t matter what their religious beliefs might be.
Plus I no longer have to be concerned if I am pleasing god or not.
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