I don't know about TWI being Christian Nationalist, but here's my take.
A thing about TWI was that mostly they simply didn't regard others as having a valid viewpoint. Our way or the highway. So little regard for others that they didn't even notice them. There was a big oval table in the auditorium. Inlaid countries of the world. Lovely. Where was New Zealand? And what other countries were missing?
Other countries have different cultural traditions, including Christian traditions. But no. You will do it our way. Even if it was culturally offensive or ineffective.
Disclaimer on this : in Christian Etiquette, Mrs Allen taught how Americans should eat, how to handle a knife and fork, etc. She made the point that this was American etiquette and urged people from other countries to follow their style of eating. Good - because in my countries, eating American-style is poor manners and only used by children learning to eat properly!! Might be used casually but never in "polite society."
I have lived in two other countries for very long periods and visited many others, and I have a number of friends who have been missionaries in other countries. American ways are often viewed with suspicion. Solutions to problems can be imposed, rather than reached in consensus with locals. (As an aside: You only have to look at the world situation now to see how "solutions" are trying to be imposed without taking into account the views of others involved - but no more of this, least it be deemed "political.")
But I don't know if this was just TWI, or if it was American culture generally, that thought the American way was the only way worthy of living. I doubt that any such culture would have been recognised in the middle east, where Christianity was born. It certainly isn't in line with Jesus's teachings.
Certainly TWI dismissed other Christian traditions without considering the merits thereof, any spiritual help those traditions gave to others, and neither did they consider whether their own "brand" was really helpful to people from any cultural background. USA is such a huge country with so much diversity. One size does not fit all.
Just read that link and my confidence in AI fell even lower than it already was.
1. TWI does NOT believe in the divinity of Jesus.
2. They most certainly DO (or did) lean heavily into political ideologies, as evidenced by the hot water they found themselves in when promoting a certain politician's campaign in the 1970s.
"Christian nationalism, ideology that seeks to create or maintain a legal fusion of Christian religion with a nation’s character. Advocates of Christian nationalism consider their view of Christianity to be an integral part of their country’s identity and want the government to promote—or even enforce—the religion’s position within it."
In my experience with The Way, it was clear Wierwille believed the U.S. was founded to be a Christian nation and his ministry's goal was to bring it back to God's word (which was in actuality Wierwille's mostly-stolen bible teachings). Numerous outreach efforts were put into action, one year Word over the World ambassadors were assigned to target political elections. There was a program "God's Word in Culture" which aimed to convert folks who could spread The Way's propaganda anywhere and everywhere. Wierwille didn't make a secret out of his hope that this country would return to what he believed the founders intended, which was to base the U.S. on Christianity. This sure fits the profile of Christian Nationalism. It is not the way of democracy.
I once wrote a paper titled, From Fundamentalism to Freedom. Here are a few quotes:
"Dr. Wierwille was determined in this mission. "The United States of America is the central battlefield in a spiritual warfare being waged between the sons of God empowered and enlightened by His Word and spiritual wickedness from on high...we have been appointed and commissioned by God to carry the light of His Word to a nation desperately in need." (Wierwille, The Way Magazine 1974).
He also wrote: "One reason America was in need, was that it had turned from God’s way of doing things. “So we in the good old U.S.A. have been caught up in the efforts to replace our American Christian foundation with a man-centered philosophy” (Wierwille “By The Way”. Those articles were published in the St. Mary's Evening Leader newspaper).
The Way historian back in the 1980s told me that: "He [Wierwille] came across a book, The Light and the Glory, which had a major effect on him. Many of the Way’s leaders began teaching it in classes designed to show the importance of America in God’s plan to get The Word over the world.This was the goal of The Way Ministry.In practice, it meant promoting the PFAL class and running Way fellowships in every country. She also told me that a staff person, who had worked closely with Dr. Wierwille, said that before this time in the 1970’s most people on staff did not even vote. She remarked that the term “founded on” seems to be the key in understanding what people refer to when they say this country is Christian. In other words, when someone says this country was “founded on the Bible,” they are usually appealing to the Puritan and other Christian influences of the early settlers, not to what the Constitution sets forth separating church and state."
Since I had never read The Light and the Glory, I found a copy and read the authors’ basic premise. One basic presupposition is that God had a definite and extremely demanding plan for America ... First, God had put a special ‘call’ on this country and the people who were to inhabit it. In the virgin wilderness of America, God was making His most significant attempt since ancient Israel to create a new Israel of people living in obedience to the laws of God through faith in Jesus Christ (Marshall, Manuel 22).
As I read along, I wondered how the authors could reconcile these statements with the First Amendment. They feel the early settlers had a correct understanding of the will of God for America, and that this tradition is still somehow alive today. In Christians on the Right, I found further evidence of this way of thinking. "It was a God-given opportunity to do what they (the Puritans) had never been able to accomplish in the Old World: to establish a society which would be built entirely on their understanding of God’s laws as revealed in the Bible (Kater 22)."
The Way held similar beliefs. I realized I had been in a group which tried to indoctrinate others with its own idea of God’s will just as those mentioned above. I saw that I had believed The Way’s interpretation and understanding of the Bible should be accepted by everyone. Where was the freedom to choose in that? During my years in The Way, I did think we should be and were examples to the world of what it means for Christians to live together in love. We were convinced our goal was attainable. We felt so strongly about this that one of our aims was to influence decisions made by our government. Dr. Wierwille was very adamant about this. “Let us put men and women into office who stand for the principles of God’s Word and let us rally to their support...get involved in the outreach of God’s Word or see America die. (Wierwille, The Way Magazine 1975. 30). I admitted we had just been reenacting what the Puritans had done long ago".
"Christian nationalism, ideology that seeks to create or maintain a legal fusion of Christian religion with a nation’s character. Advocates of Christian nationalism consider their view of Christianity to be an integral part of their country’s identity and want the government to promote—or even enforce—the religion’s position within it."
In my experience with The Way, it was clear Wierwille believed the U.S. was founded to be a Christian nation and his ministry's goal was to bring it back to God's word (which was in actuality Wierwille's mostly-stolen bible teachings). Numerous outreach efforts were put into action, one year Word over the World ambassadors were assigned to target political elections. There was a program "God's Word in Culture" which aimed to convert folks who could spread The Way's propaganda anywhere and everywhere. Wierwille didn't make a secret out of his hope that this country would return to what he believed the founders intended, which was to base the U.S. on Christianity. This sure fits the profile of Christian Nationalism. It is not the way of democracy.
I once wrote a paper titled, From Fundamentalism to Freedom. Here are a few quotes:
"Dr. Wierwille was determined in this mission. "The United States of America is the central battlefield in a spiritual warfare being waged between the sons of God empowered and enlightened by His Word and spiritual wickedness from on high...we have been appointed and commissioned by God to carry the light of His Word to a nation desperately in need." (Wierwille, The Way Magazine 1974).
He also wrote: "One reason America was in need, was that it had turned from God’s way of doing things. “So we in the good old U.S.A. have been caught up in the efforts to replace our American Christian foundation with a man-centered philosophy” (Wierwille “By The Way”. Those articles were published in the St. Mary's Evening Leader newspaper).
The Way historian back in the 1980s told me that: "He [Wierwille] came across a book, The Light and the Glory, which had a major effect on him. Many of the Way’s leaders began teaching it in classes designed to show the importance of America in God’s plan to get The Word over the world.This was the goal of The Way Ministry.In practice, it meant promoting the PFAL class and running Way fellowships in every country. She also told me that a staff person, who had worked closely with Dr. Wierwille, said that before this time in the 1970’s most people on staff did not even vote. She remarked that the term “founded on” seems to be the key in understanding what people refer to when they say this country is Christian. In other words, when someone says this country was “founded on the Bible,” they are usually appealing to the Puritan and other Christian influences of the early settlers, not to what the Constitution sets forth separating church and state."
Since I had never read The Light and the Glory, I found a copy and read the authors’ basic premise. One basic presupposition is that God had a definite and extremely demanding plan for America ... First, God had put a special ‘call’ on this country and the people who were to inhabit it. In the virgin wilderness of America, God was making His most significant attempt since ancient Israel to create a new Israel of people living in obedience to the laws of God through faith in Jesus Christ (Marshall, Manuel 22).
As I read along, I wondered how the authors could reconcile these statements with the First Amendment. They feel the early settlers had a correct understanding of the will of God for America, and that this tradition is still somehow alive today. In Christians on the Right, I found further evidence of this way of thinking. "It was a God-given opportunity to do what they (the Puritans) had never been able to accomplish in the Old World: to establish a society which would be built entirely on their understanding of God’s laws as revealed in the Bible (Kater 22)."
The Way held similar beliefs. I realized I had been in a group which tried to indoctrinate others with its own idea of God’s will just as those mentioned above. I saw that I had believed The Way’s interpretation and understanding of the Bible should be accepted by everyone. Where was the freedom to choose in that? During my years in The Way, I did think we should be and were examples to the world of what it means for Christians to live together in love. We were convinced our goal was attainable. We felt so strongly about this that one of our aims was to influence decisions made by our government. Dr. Wierwille was very adamant about this. “Let us put men and women into office who stand for the principles of God’s Word and let us rally to their support...get involved in the outreach of God’s Word or see America die. (Wierwille, The Way Magazine 1975. 30). I admitted we had just been reenacting what the Puritans had done long ago".
Thank you penworks. You're research proves that even AI doesn't know it all! I did a few other AI searches with some of your research material, and AI included snippets of your information not posted in the first AI search. So overall I believe this proves that AI isn't comprehensive all the time... Something good to know for future reference...
Thank you penworks. You're research proves that even AI doesn't know it all! I did a few other AI searches with some of your research material, and AI included snippets of your information not posted in the first AI search. So overall I believe this proves that AI isn't comprehensive all the time... Something good to know for future reference...
Your suspicion is correct. The Ten Commandments were considered passe, having been superceded by The Great Commandment. I'm pretty sure they would have rather had posters promoting S.I.T.
In regard to Christian Nationalism, Wierwille was a close follower of Willis Carto and The Liberty Lobby. You can draw your own conclusions.
I also found this woman who makes some good arguments to counter "Christian nationalism."
And I can tell you - the way she looks would not be acceptable at all to TWI. But what she says - well, neither would most of that either. So? (3) Facebook As she says - refute it from the Bible - if you can. LoL.
Your suspicion is correct. The Ten Commandments were considered passe, having been superceded by The Great Commandment. I'm pretty sure they would have rather had posters promoting S.I.T.
In regard to Christian Nationalism, Wierwille was a close follower of Willis Carto and The Liberty Lobby. You can draw your own conclusions.
Agree. I believe they also believed then (as perhaps they do today) that belief in Jesus Christ only is required for salvation and completely fulfills the Abrahamic covenant. As said in Romans, TWI drilled into us that both Jew and Gentile form one Body of Christ which is the only way to salvation. (THERE IS NO OTHER WAY). This is sometimes referred to as "replacement theology". Here's what AI says and I believe it fits with TWI beliefs:
Key aspects of Replacement Theology include
The Church as the "New Israel":Proponents believe the Church is now the true, spiritual Israel, inheriting the blessings and roles originally promised to the Jewish nation.
Abolishment or Fulfillment of Covenants:Replacement theology suggests that the Old Testament Mosaic covenant and potentially the Abrahamic covenant have been either abolished or fulfilled by the New Covenant in Christ. This can imply that the land promises made to Israel in the Old Testament are no longer relevant in a literal sense.
Israel's Diminished or Ended Role:This view asserts that God's program and interest in the nation of Israel, as a distinct entity, have ended following their rejection of Jesus as Messiah.
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Rocky
Orthodoxy was unconsciousness.
Orwell, George. 1984 (p. 63). Gates Classics. Kindle Edition.
Think about it.
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Twinky
I don't know about TWI being Christian Nationalist, but here's my take.
A thing about TWI was that mostly they simply didn't regard others as having a valid viewpoint. Our way or the highway. So little regard for others that they didn't even notice them. There was a big oval table in the auditorium. Inlaid countries of the world. Lovely. Where was New Zealand? And what other countries were missing?
Other countries have different cultural traditions, including Christian traditions. But no. You will do it our way. Even if it was culturally offensive or ineffective.
Disclaimer on this : in Christian Etiquette, Mrs Allen taught how Americans should eat, how to handle a knife and fork, etc. She made the point that this was American etiquette and urged people from other countries to follow their style of eating. Good - because in my countries, eating American-style is poor manners and only used by children learning to eat properly!! Might be used casually but never in "polite society."
I have lived in two other countries for very long periods and visited many others, and I have a number of friends who have been missionaries in other countries. American ways are often viewed with suspicion. Solutions to problems can be imposed, rather than reached in consensus with locals. (As an aside: You only have to look at the world situation now to see how "solutions" are trying to be imposed without taking into account the views of others involved - but no more of this, least it be deemed "political.")
But I don't know if this was just TWI, or if it was American culture generally, that thought the American way was the only way worthy of living. I doubt that any such culture would have been recognised in the middle east, where Christianity was born. It certainly isn't in line with Jesus's teachings.
Certainly TWI dismissed other Christian traditions without considering the merits thereof, any spiritual help those traditions gave to others, and neither did they consider whether their own "brand" was really helpful to people from any cultural background. USA is such a huge country with so much diversity. One size does not fit all.
Well. That's a cult for you.
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oldiesman
Here's what our friend AI says, FWIW:
https://www.google.com/search?q=is+The+Way+International+a+Christian+Nationalist+group%3F&sca_esv=18be89dfcaae8ca6&sxsrf=AE3TifN47sLtLRfoS_HPzrJ2yE51s5tlWw%3A1754995720174&source=hp&ei=CBybaNX_B5WgptQPmbWD0Qc&iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaJsqGKF6_TaCQfgJ5a2-mSFLf_hoSIry&ved=0ahUKEwjVo-zDjIWPAxUVkIkEHZnaIHoQ4dUDCBo&uact=5&oq=is+The+Way+International+a+Christian+Nationalist+group%3F&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IjdpcyBUaGUgV2F5IEludGVybmF0aW9uYWwgYSBDaHJpc3RpYW4gTmF0aW9uYWxpc3QgZ3JvdXA_MgUQIRigAUiHf1AAWI13cAZ4AJABAJgBrQigAZJWqgEPMTQuMjYuNi4zLjYtMy4xuAEDyAEA-AEBmAI4oAKdU8ICBBAjGCfCAgcQIxjwBRgnwgIKECMY8AUYJxjJAsICCxAAGIAEGLEDGIMBwgIFEC4YgATCAhEQLhiABBixAxjRAxiDARjHAcICCBAuGIAEGLEDwgIFEAAYgATCAgQQABgDwgIOEAAYgAQYsQMYgwEYigXCAggQABiABBixA8ICFBAuGIAEGMcBGJgFGJkFGJ4FGK8BwgILEC4YgAQYxwEYrwHCAgYQABgWGB7CAgUQABjvBcICCBAAGIAEGKIEwgIIEAAYogQYiQXCAgcQIRigARgKwgILEAAYgAQYhgMYigXCAgUQIRirApgDAJIHDzE2LjI5LjQuMy4wLjEuM6AH79ECsgcPMTAuMjkuNC4zLjAuMS4zuAfuUsIHCTAuMTkuMzEuNsgHggI&sclient=gws-wiz
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waysider
Just read that link and my confidence in AI fell even lower than it already was.
1. TWI does NOT believe in the divinity of Jesus.
2. They most certainly DO (or did) lean heavily into political ideologies, as evidenced by the hot water they found themselves in when promoting a certain politician's campaign in the 1970s.
3. Wierwille wasn't really a "Dr.".
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penworks
I'll use this definistion from:Christian nationalism | Definition, History, United States, & Facts | Britannica:
"Christian nationalism, ideology that seeks to create or maintain a legal fusion of Christian religion with a nation’s character. Advocates of Christian nationalism consider their view of Christianity to be an integral part of their country’s identity and want the government to promote—or even enforce—the religion’s position within it."
In my experience with The Way, it was clear Wierwille believed the U.S. was founded to be a Christian nation and his ministry's goal was to bring it back to God's word (which was in actuality Wierwille's mostly-stolen bible teachings). Numerous outreach efforts were put into action, one year Word over the World ambassadors were assigned to target political elections. There was a program "God's Word in Culture" which aimed to convert folks who could spread The Way's propaganda anywhere and everywhere. Wierwille didn't make a secret out of his hope that this country would return to what he believed the founders intended, which was to base the U.S. on Christianity. This sure fits the profile of Christian Nationalism. It is not the way of democracy.
I once wrote a paper titled, From Fundamentalism to Freedom. Here are a few quotes:
"Dr. Wierwille was determined in this mission. "The United States of America is the central battlefield in a spiritual warfare being waged between the sons of God empowered and enlightened by His Word and spiritual wickedness from on high...we have been appointed and commissioned by God to carry the light of His Word to a nation desperately in need." (Wierwille, The Way Magazine 1974).
He also wrote: "One reason America was in need, was that it had turned from God’s way of doing things. “So we in the good old U.S.A. have been caught up in the efforts to replace our American Christian foundation with a man-centered philosophy” (Wierwille “By The Way”. Those articles were published in the St. Mary's Evening Leader newspaper).
The Way historian back in the 1980s told me that: "He [Wierwille] came across a book, The Light and the Glory, which had a major effect on him. Many of the Way’s leaders began teaching it in classes designed to show the importance of America in God’s plan to get The Word over the world. This was the goal of The Way Ministry. In practice, it meant promoting the PFAL class and running Way fellowships in every country. She also told me that a staff person, who had worked closely with Dr. Wierwille, said that before this time in the 1970’s most people on staff did not even vote. She remarked that the term “founded on” seems to be the key in understanding what people refer to when they say this country is Christian. In other words, when someone says this country was “founded on the Bible,” they are usually appealing to the Puritan and other Christian influences of the early settlers, not to what the Constitution sets forth separating church and state."
Since I had never read The Light and the Glory, I found a copy and read the authors’ basic premise. One basic presupposition is that God had a definite and extremely demanding plan for America ... First, God had put a special ‘call’ on this country and the people who were to inhabit it. In the virgin wilderness of America, God was making His most significant attempt since ancient Israel to create a new Israel of people living in obedience to the laws of God through faith in Jesus Christ (Marshall, Manuel 22).
As I read along, I wondered how the authors could reconcile these statements with the First Amendment. They feel the early settlers had a correct understanding of the will of God for America, and that this tradition is still somehow alive today. In Christians on the Right, I found further evidence of this way of thinking. "It was a God-given opportunity to do what they (the Puritans) had never been able to accomplish in the Old World: to establish a society which would be built entirely on their understanding of God’s laws as revealed in the Bible (Kater 22)."
The Way held similar beliefs. I realized I had been in a group which tried to indoctrinate others with its own idea of God’s will just as those mentioned above. I saw that I had believed The Way’s interpretation and understanding of the Bible should be accepted by everyone. Where was the freedom to choose in that? During my years in The Way, I did think we should be and were examples to the world of what it means for Christians to live together in love. We were convinced our goal was attainable. We felt so strongly about this that one of our aims was to influence decisions made by our government. Dr. Wierwille was very adamant about this. “Let us put men and women into office who stand for the principles of God’s Word and let us rally to their support...get involved in the outreach of God’s Word or see America die. (Wierwille, The Way Magazine 1975. 30). I admitted we had just been reenacting what the Puritans had done long ago".
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waysider
Excellent!
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Twinky
This just popped into my Facebook feed: (3) Facebook - a clip by one Pastor Paul Drees, about power (and abuse thereof) in Christian Nationalism
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oldiesman
Thank you penworks. You're research proves that even AI doesn't know it all! I did a few other AI searches with some of your research material, and AI included snippets of your information not posted in the first AI search. So overall I believe this proves that AI isn't comprehensive all the time... Something good to know for future reference...
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waysider
I think what it shows is that AI is only as reliable as the data fed into it, which might or might not be accurate and/or biased.
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penworks
You're welcome.
You're welcome.
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Nathan_Jr
Christian Nationalism, Jihadism
Tomato, Tomahto
*projectile vomits*
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Nathan_Jr
Would TWI or victor support the mandatory display of the Ten Commandments in classrooms - a hallmark of contemporary Christian Nationalism?
I suspect they wouldn't, since that's a Jew thing and that Jew law doesn't apply to Christians. Any thoughts on this?
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waysider
Your suspicion is correct. The Ten Commandments were considered passe, having been superceded by The Great Commandment. I'm pretty sure they would have rather had posters promoting S.I.T.
In regard to Christian Nationalism, Wierwille was a close follower of Willis Carto and The Liberty Lobby. You can draw your own conclusions.
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Twinky
I also found this woman who makes some good arguments to counter "Christian nationalism."
And I can tell you - the way she looks would not be acceptable at all to TWI. But what she says - well, neither would most of that either. So? (3) Facebook As she says - refute it from the Bible - if you can. LoL.
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Rocky
Intriguing, Oldies, that you refer to AI as "our friend."
There have been posts on TWI before that had hallmarks of AI. Clearly, AI, which Harari calls Alien Intelligence, is far from perfect.
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Rocky
Excellent characterization.
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oldiesman
Agree. I believe they also believed then (as perhaps they do today) that belief in Jesus Christ only is required for salvation and completely fulfills the Abrahamic covenant. As said in Romans, TWI drilled into us that both Jew and Gentile form one Body of Christ which is the only way to salvation. (THERE IS NO OTHER WAY). This is sometimes referred to as "replacement theology". Here's what AI says and I believe it fits with TWI beliefs:
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