I mentioned several points you have failed to address. You are apparently a troll looking just for an argument and not an exchange of ideas, or your lack of a sound mind makes posting to you a waste of time. Goodbye
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quote:Amen!!! I too grieve for those who stipulate the need for a perfect teacher and pass up perfect teaching that they really do need.
Who here has ever said they expected a "perfect teacher"? No one here Mike. So it seems you grieve for no one as you once again attmept to paint a false picture. But hey, that's just your nature isn't it?
There is no need for a perfect teacher, only for one that meets the bare minimum of standards set fort in the scriptures. Wierwille didn't meet them. Not even close.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
Ok, you had enough time. In addition to the error (corrected) I made, let me fix your misread.
Yes, Michelson-Morely (and others I think) made the measurements, but everyone (in Physics) thought there was something wrong.
Lorentz was the boldest with his contraction/dilation hypothesis, but he still maintained the absolutivity of space and time. He merely thought that it was merely our MEASUREMENTS that were affected by the ether wind, not the more basic time and space absolutes.
It was Einstein who went the next step and said there is no difference between the root concept of time and the measurement of time. He said that time is that which is measured by clocks, not something in itself, (ditto for space) and that it was “c” that was an independent absolute.
The other miscommunication we made here was I committed an ambiguity in my two statements of “Einstein saw” which was clarified by my later addition of the two parenthetical statements.
The first “seeing” referred to what he saw in the 1940’s and 50’s in the way society was bastardizing his theory by saying “Everything’s relative.”
The second “seeing” referred to what he saw in the years of physical measurements that proceeded him before the turn of the century.
With all this in mind, maybe you should reconsider my “distortion” of PFAL.
Nope. Exactly the same shi-, er, horse manure that he's been peddling, except even more intense - he claims that at the return, Jesus will be teaching out of a piffle book.
On the thread where you were posting about Ken (my apologies, I forgot his last name), you actually seemed like an okay guy, with normal emotions and everything, and you were even likeable.
quote:So what is VP's contribution to history, exactly? I think I've missed something here.
Ex10, you didn't miss it, in fact you were there to witness it. He led (or was a major part of a movement that led) thousands of folks to a more accurate knowledge of the bible, folks who might not have been reached otherwise. No question in my mind that's a huge accomplishment.
What I witnessed, I don't think was thanks to VPW, but to Jesus Christ.
I beg to differ about the "more accurate knowledge of the bible..." thing, and the "folks who might not have been reached otherwise..." thing.
VP promoted a more accurate knowledge of his interpretation of the bible. (Although, to be fair, he did introduce the inductive method of study to a whole bunch of people. However, that is hardly history-making.)
Jesus promised that those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, shall be filled. I believe him.
Hardly, Mike. As usual, you have selectively distorted the facts to reach your dubious conclusions. Lorentz was not the first to derive the dilation equations, and Poincare was writing about lightspeed invariance five years before Einstein published his paper on special relativity.
Condescension when one is correct is merely arrogant and rude. Condescension when one is deliberately misleading, as you are doing here, is either foolish, a desperate attempt at misdirection, or both.
So you don't want to live if PFAL is wrong, eh? Well, guess what? It is wrong. Rafael Olmeda's challenge to you is still unaddressed, yet you continue to pontificate, obfuscate, and downright squawk about your "mastery" of your flighty philosophies. However, it's blatantly obvious you don't have the balls to actually make good on your acid-tripping skydive bluster, which leads anyone with half a synapse firing in their brains to conclude that you are, yet again, still talking out of your a$$. No, actually, that might be more intelligible. You're giving false prophets a bad name there...
I certainly do not have a problem with you having a "belief system" that is absolute for you. There are many such systems in today's marketplace of religious thought...question the pope on the virgin birth, question a trinitarian on Jesus not being God, or question a Wahabi on a woman not wearing the veil? These are all very sacrid beliefs in their systems of belief. So, you are not unique in your absolute unquestioned adherence to an absolute doctrine. That doesn't discredit those of us who are willing to say that we don't have it all figured out on things pertaining to God and Spirituality. What if we were able to determine the inherent and inerrant truth of God's Word to contridict what "Doctor" taught us? Would we change? Would Wierwile have listened to this new light when he was alive? He certainly banished a few in the ministry who questioned him with new light. You see, he was no different than any other bible student when his ideas were challenged...it became more about the researcher than the research. VP's scientific approach in his search for "the truth" was pretty revolutionary for his time. The only problem when others used those "keys to research" to come to different conclusions he brushed them off as "blasphemers to the truth". Was he willing to have his premise challenged like he challenged others? It certainly has the appearance of a double standard. In academia, you and I are held to a higher standard than VP allowed himself to be subject to. It's dishonest for him to have done so. It makes me take an even harder look at "belief systems" that I acquired via this man.
I hope Brady doesn’t mind me sneaking back on. Can you take the blame for this one for me?
You wrote: “Hey, Mike - On the thread where you were posting about Ken (my apologies, I forgot his last name), you actually seemed like an okay guy, with normal emotions and everything, and you were even likeable.”
That was Ken Barden. Thanks for noticing that I’m an OK guy. I do try to be easy going, and in person I think I have achieved that somewhat, especially in the last several years. I still have more to go, and I try to improve in how I relate to people. However, I am very tough when it comes to the very tough subject of separating truth from error. It’s a ball-buster fer shr. I hate error and how it has hurt us all. I love the people, and tolerate everyone who has error, me included, but when I see a hurtful error I nail it best I can. If someone gets in the way that’s their problem. Later, I try to see if I can help them get over it, but I do not refrain from the error busting if I can do something about it.
The post you asked for is in simpatico’s thread on the “Every Picture Tells a Story” forum titled “7th Corps Lead Adventure/ Feb.79 Tinnie, New Mexico” and is mostly on the second page. Ken Barden comes up on all those pages so far. Here’s the URL:
It's ERNST Mach, and that was a precursor of general relativity and not special relativity. Now go back and edit your post, like you often do, to cover up your gross negligence.
Forget skydiving, just go run your car in the garage with the door closed while you're trying to think up your next new kink in your retroactive continuity.
quote: I believe his contribution will be carried into history by those in whose lives it made a real positive difference. Whether or not it made a positive difference in your life or not I can't say, only you can.
What The Hay, no need to mince words here, I believe (and maybe you as well) that VP made a positive difference in all of our lives, in varying degrees, especially those of us who hung around TWI 10, 15, 20, 25, even almost 30 years, whether folks will admit to it or not. That's why we hung around TWI for so long...the ultimate compliment for TWI was that we folks hung around that long.
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Mike
Zixar,
I think you misread my post. Before I correct you, I'll give you a chance to go and do it yourself.
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IMF777
Mike,
I mentioned several points you have failed to address. You are apparently a troll looking just for an argument and not an exchange of ideas, or your lack of a sound mind makes posting to you a waste of time. Goodbye
Copyright 2004 by the author. All rights reserved. Posting may not be copied or reproduced by anyone, including employees and followers of The Way International, Inc.
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Goey
Posted by Mike:
Who here has ever said they expected a "perfect teacher"? No one here Mike. So it seems you grieve for no one as you once again attmept to paint a false picture. But hey, that's just your nature isn't it?
There is no need for a perfect teacher, only for one that meets the bare minimum of standards set fort in the scriptures. Wierwille didn't meet them. Not even close.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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Mike
Zixar,
I may be wrong here.
I went back and added (in society) and (in Physics) to make it read more accurate. You may have not had a chance to see my edit. Sorry.
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CoolWaters
Note to self...
Stop.
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Mike
IMF,
You may be an egotist to think I have the time to devote to every point you make here.
Have you ever tried debating with 5 people all at once?
Sometimes I gloss over points if I've posted on them many times in the past year.
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Raf
Hi everyone! Sorry I've been away from these discussions so long. Have I missed anything?
Hi CoolWaters! God Bless You.
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Mike
Goey,
Sorry. I'm guilty of a little hyperbole there.
It seems you feel a need to nit pick because you have no substantial things to pick at.
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Mike
Gads Rafael! Show up when there are 5 people on my back or something!
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Mike
CoolWaters,
No matter you THINK, or post, or delete, I NEVER NEVER NEVER said you should consider leaving your husband. ...or anything LIKE it!
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ex10
Hi Raf!! Not to worry, you haven't missed anything. Mike's hijacked another thread and declared himself king of the mountain.........again.
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Mike
Zixar,
Ok, you had enough time. In addition to the error (corrected) I made, let me fix your misread.
Yes, Michelson-Morely (and others I think) made the measurements, but everyone (in Physics) thought there was something wrong.
Lorentz was the boldest with his contraction/dilation hypothesis, but he still maintained the absolutivity of space and time. He merely thought that it was merely our MEASUREMENTS that were affected by the ether wind, not the more basic time and space absolutes.
It was Einstein who went the next step and said there is no difference between the root concept of time and the measurement of time. He said that time is that which is measured by clocks, not something in itself, (ditto for space) and that it was “c” that was an independent absolute.
The other miscommunication we made here was I committed an ambiguity in my two statements of “Einstein saw” which was clarified by my later addition of the two parenthetical statements.
The first “seeing” referred to what he saw in the 1940’s and 50’s in the way society was bastardizing his theory by saying “Everything’s relative.”
The second “seeing” referred to what he saw in the years of physical measurements that proceeded him before the turn of the century.
With all this in mind, maybe you should reconsider my “distortion” of PFAL.
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Mike
Brady,
My apologies for hijacking this thread.
At least I made it a big one for you.
;)-->
You can come back now. I'll stop.
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Steve!
Raf -
Nope. Exactly the same shi-, er, horse manure that he's been peddling, except even more intense - he claims that at the return, Jesus will be teaching out of a piffle book.
Can you imagine?
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Steve!
Hey, Mike -
On the thread where you were posting about Ken (my apologies, I forgot his last name), you actually seemed like an okay guy, with normal emotions and everything, and you were even likeable.
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oldiesman
Ex10, you didn't miss it, in fact you were there to witness it. He led (or was a major part of a movement that led) thousands of folks to a more accurate knowledge of the bible, folks who might not have been reached otherwise. No question in my mind that's a huge accomplishment.
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ex10
Oldies
What I witnessed, I don't think was thanks to VPW, but to Jesus Christ.
I beg to differ about the "more accurate knowledge of the bible..." thing, and the "folks who might not have been reached otherwise..." thing.
VP promoted a more accurate knowledge of his interpretation of the bible. (Although, to be fair, he did introduce the inductive method of study to a whole bunch of people. However, that is hardly history-making.)
Jesus promised that those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, shall be filled. I believe him.
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Zixar
Hardly, Mike. As usual, you have selectively distorted the facts to reach your dubious conclusions. Lorentz was not the first to derive the dilation equations, and Poincare was writing about lightspeed invariance five years before Einstein published his paper on special relativity.
Condescension when one is correct is merely arrogant and rude. Condescension when one is deliberately misleading, as you are doing here, is either foolish, a desperate attempt at misdirection, or both.
So you don't want to live if PFAL is wrong, eh? Well, guess what? It is wrong. Rafael Olmeda's challenge to you is still unaddressed, yet you continue to pontificate, obfuscate, and downright squawk about your "mastery" of your flighty philosophies. However, it's blatantly obvious you don't have the balls to actually make good on your acid-tripping skydive bluster, which leads anyone with half a synapse firing in their brains to conclude that you are, yet again, still talking out of your a$$. No, actually, that might be more intelligible. You're giving false prophets a bad name there...
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Doze
I certainly do not have a problem with you having a "belief system" that is absolute for you. There are many such systems in today's marketplace of religious thought...question the pope on the virgin birth, question a trinitarian on Jesus not being God, or question a Wahabi on a woman not wearing the veil? These are all very sacrid beliefs in their systems of belief. So, you are not unique in your absolute unquestioned adherence to an absolute doctrine. That doesn't discredit those of us who are willing to say that we don't have it all figured out on things pertaining to God and Spirituality. What if we were able to determine the inherent and inerrant truth of God's Word to contridict what "Doctor" taught us? Would we change? Would Wierwile have listened to this new light when he was alive? He certainly banished a few in the ministry who questioned him with new light. You see, he was no different than any other bible student when his ideas were challenged...it became more about the researcher than the research. VP's scientific approach in his search for "the truth" was pretty revolutionary for his time. The only problem when others used those "keys to research" to come to different conclusions he brushed them off as "blasphemers to the truth". Was he willing to have his premise challenged like he challenged others? It certainly has the appearance of a double standard. In academia, you and I are held to a higher standard than VP allowed himself to be subject to. It's dishonest for him to have done so. It makes me take an even harder look at "belief systems" that I acquired via this man.
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Mister P-Mosh
And I don't mean W.O.W.
This thread is making the politics section look like one big happy family.
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Mike
Steve!,
I hope Brady doesn’t mind me sneaking back on. Can you take the blame for this one for me?
You wrote: “Hey, Mike - On the thread where you were posting about Ken (my apologies, I forgot his last name), you actually seemed like an okay guy, with normal emotions and everything, and you were even likeable.”
That was Ken Barden. Thanks for noticing that I’m an OK guy. I do try to be easy going, and in person I think I have achieved that somewhat, especially in the last several years. I still have more to go, and I try to improve in how I relate to people. However, I am very tough when it comes to the very tough subject of separating truth from error. It’s a ball-buster fer shr. I hate error and how it has hurt us all. I love the people, and tolerate everyone who has error, me included, but when I see a hurtful error I nail it best I can. If someone gets in the way that’s their problem. Later, I try to see if I can help them get over it, but I do not refrain from the error busting if I can do something about it.
The post you asked for is in simpatico’s thread on the “Every Picture Tells a Story” forum titled “7th Corps Lead Adventure/ Feb.79 Tinnie, New Mexico” and is mostly on the second page. Ken Barden comes up on all those pages so far. Here’s the URL:
http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a=tpc...=7046054155&p=2
Ken was indeed a spectacular man, and was high on the adversary’s hit list. I think of Steven in Acts of the Apostles when I say this.
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Mike
Zixar,
Ok I give up. In the rush to post and all the others on my back, I did forget about Poincare.
But you forgot about Earnest Mach!
Einstein kinda "put it all together" if that reminds you of anything.
;)-->
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Zixar
Forget skydiving, just go run your car in the garage with the door closed while you're trying to think up your next new kink in your retroactive continuity.
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oldiesman
What The Hay Said:
What The Hay, no need to mince words here, I believe (and maybe you as well) that VP made a positive difference in all of our lives, in varying degrees, especially those of us who hung around TWI 10, 15, 20, 25, even almost 30 years, whether folks will admit to it or not. That's why we hung around TWI for so long...the ultimate compliment for TWI was that we folks hung around that long.
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