Ex dubs are the most notorious "cut and paste" quoters on the net that Ive ever seen. They are always trying to catch people out contradicting themselves.
Many of them have studied their churches old doctrinal books and collected contradictions and changes of position by the cult.
And so they carry the practise on in their online discussions and disputes.
In twi that would have been a very loose description of "iron sharpeneth iron"...again I repeat very loose. Questioning one on their views and understanding is good for the gray matter. More than once I have changed mine (views) from this group and now from my home board. It's a good thing indeed.
But searcher, I see this group of which I am one (ex-twi) in many of the same ways as you stated, talk about having been micro-managed and perception of close scrutiny, oh yea how familiar that is.
If I am understanding what you are saying correctly...
Some ex-jw's like some ex-twi's may be in need of professional mental help.
When someone has left an abusive and/or controlling enviroment (such as a cult). It might not be a bad idea to see if/how many issues need to be addressed. This can only be done by a trained in mental health.
Hopefully, those who need it will realize that they need it, and get it.
I can think of good things to come out of twi (some of my best friends were brought up in that place).
I can think of good things to come out of LDS for instance. But JW? I can't think of anything good that came out of that place.
I can think of good things about LDS --
:)--> The LDS nurturing through their missionary program is terrific. Many of the problems twi's WOW Ambassador problem had -- kids having loose morals and hurting themselves and each other because of uncontrolled se x, finances out of control, abuse by leaders, etc. -- doesn't occur because the LDS missionaries live with and work closely with the established church where they are sent.
:)--> The LDS takes care of their own.
:)--> The LDS teaches their children how to do things, crafts and artwork, job apprentice work, etc. Their children are not tv dummies.
:)--> The LDS has a great disaster preparedness network.
Twi benefits are hotly debated at the Greasespot Cafe, and the depth of affection for the Lord and what He says some attribute to that twi place.
But JW? I can't think of anything good that came out of that place.
JWs have the callous arrogance and disrespect to anyone who believes different that comes with cult membership, but there seems to be no mitigating kindness and affection which comes with any touch of the Lord and of the Holy Spirit.
And from what has been demonstrated by the ex-jws who come to the Greasespot Cafe, the spawns of jw are even worse -- more hardhearted, more arrogant, more disrespectful to other beliefs and concerns.
So what do you ex-jws say is good from jw?
Do you have any benefits you are thankful for?
Did they hold your family together?
What kind of kindness did you learn in jw? (Kindness, I believe, is the mark of Holy Spirit's work.)
It sounds like both groups have power plays but I see a difference
JW does not have such a thick line of who is and who isnt really allowed to "hold those in close scruntiny".
many who post here are grads of the corps progrma which is an elite
group inside of twi. the actual" better than" people(groomed to be leaders of the flock by twi) they held the commintment high and longer than the "ordinary believers" who ironicly often paid their way through the program .
This is an hiearchy formed within twi, again it is so ingrained it isnt notice even within their own ranks... you will notice a poster conceeding being extra kind and gentle to way corps grads . At grease spot only the chosen know who the chosen are in the posts and it is clear they often still hold this power over others and within themselves.
twi is not a cult with a even playing board of self righteousness , power, prestige and say so, was earned by the number of years in who you knew , your family memebers and their rank etc.
these mind sets do not erase themselves it takes a humbling process to realize the false throne you sit upon is nothing more than a pile of crap .
the problem is and always has been within a group think setting those who adore and want to pay allegence are just as ignorant, loyal and self righteous with the parasitic nature they learned
while in the cult. hence the desire for grease spot cafe.
the idea of catching one in a contradictory statement or some such....is probably the residual of symptamatic cult life....a common thread amoung many ex-cult people.
Trying to shake the imperialistic sense of superiority these cults can bring to ones personality is a humility process all its own.
I have a friend who has a mother who is an "elder' this friend is fifty something and does not go to church .
but she has never beenn thrown out it would shame her mother so much so mom lies and claims the reason she doesnt attend is for health reason for over thirty years!
her daughter is too ill, although she works full time and lives a normal life concerning attending to everything eles.
hmmmm.
but I recognize the fact this mother has a great deal of control still over my friend , she has always lived in one of her homes and has never married even when in love because her mom didnt like his race etc.
so I guess it may be the same i just have never seen it like I have in twi. also whenever I would reach out in friendship to this girl , we had the love of cats in common and met at a cat store , without fail mom and her friends would come knocking on MY door with their little paper books and wanting to vist!
so in a sense she was still controlled by the cult she was raised in , but had a slight rebellion streak that was controlled by the elders for appearance sake. sad really.
My aunt married someone who was brought up as a JW. He believed a lot of their doctrines up until a few years ago, well, ok, maybe 10 or 15, but who's counting.
Anyway, his family always helped them with stuff even though they weren't involved with the JWs and he was a great husband and father--probably the only sane one that one of my aunts married.
"many who post here are grads of the corps progrma which is an elite group inside of twi. the actual" better than" people(groomed to be leaders of the flock by twi) they held the commintment high and longer than the "ordinary believers" who ironicly often paid their way through the program"
I am NOT corpse, and from my own personal experience the only people that I ever saw within TWI who did hurt others, or mis-use others, or get into a believer's face and scream was Way-Corpse-grads.
When I have stated this on Greasespot Cafe, I have been amazed at the out-lash from many posters here. That Oh, no they were not responsible for their actions, and ALL the abuse was from VPW / LCM.
It is an amazing thing to see.
Many of the Ex-Way-Corpse do seem to still carry with them the 'identity' of being seperate from an average beleiver. My exposure was fairly limited having only been a follower of TWI for 18 years.
:-)
"This is an hiearchy formed within twi, again it is so ingrained it isnt notice even within their own ranks... you will notice a poster conceeding being extra kind and gentle to way corps grads . At grease spot only the chosen know who the chosen are in the posts and it is clear they often still hold this power over others and within themselves."
Hmm, kind of. I am not any nicer or kinder to them than to anyone else. I dont believe so. Though I have been forced to be more apologetic as anytime we speak the truth about how Way-Corpse-Nazis hurt the body-of-Christ it does offend them so.
". . . hence the desire for grease spot cafe."
I dont agree, I like GS, as herein I have found contact with a few others who share my world-view.
it isnt everyone I am not corpse , I wouldnt have a chance to post if it was everyone.
I notice it mostly in flare ups over the off shoots or doctrines .
when the little people get out of hand they tend come to lead us back to reality and the flock will fall in line .
watch you will see it . but galen you do not get into to many heated discussions cause um your a nice guy and all. try be a little less diplomatic and agreeing with the status quo here and you may recognize the idea more.
get over it, Galen---- you knew a few people and had some small contact with other dozens and you cannot seem to discriminate between that fact and the idea that there were thousands in the corps and that the majority(over 50%) were not that way...
this would be before 85, 86...I have NO idea how f-ed up they became after that but reports would indicate that they, in general, followed lcm down the primrose path to hades. Why did you stay involved, Galen?? If the kork represented the "heart" of the ministry and you despised them so, why did you stay so long?? hmmmm.....
Depends on you you're counting. The JDubs have, currently, 6,000,000 members worldwide. At it's PEAK, TWI had between one and two percent of that number (and that's assuming all 100,000 people who took PFAL stuck with TWI, not a safe assumption). It's far more likely that two TWI people will know each other than two JWs.
Tell me if I'm wrong: in many cities, all TWI members knew each other.
In JW land, you're Mr. Popular if you know more than half the people in your congregation.
it was built on family and friends for the most part.. then outreach which met anyone who was got in were to make twi folks their family and friends. the time it took to maintain twi for folks was incredible after pfal it sucked your time and resources in like a vacum and for many of us when we left we had nothing left of a life without twi and its people.
nothing and that is why so many had to flee to the off shoots .
we forgot how to live without the influence and we didnt know how to think of a life when we didnt pay someone money to tell us gods words etc... pathetic.
Many of the Ex-Way-Corpse do seem to still carry with them the 'identity' of being seperate from an average beleiver. My exposure was fairly limited having only been a follower of TWI for 18 years.
"Limited exposure, with 18 years involvement??" Hmmm. OK -- I'll take you at your word for that, but I will also have to agree about the hierarchy espoused by twi.
I was never corps, but did get into University of Life. Because of that fact, others looked up to me as one who "could of been Corps", but had sufficient reason to not enter the program "at this time". -->
Did that make me any more "spiritual" than "Average Joe Believer"?? In their eyes it did, and I gotta admit, for a while I thought so too.
Took me a while to realize that I was saved by grace, just like "Average Joe Believer", and that my "standing with the "ministry" of twi was a whole lot different than my "standing in Christ".
Unfortunately -- yes. The caste system is still there. And twi did it's best to "alienate" folks by labels, and did so very effectively.
I currently work at a group home where I am "staff", and the guys that live there know it. I am in charge, yet if need be, I have to wipe their butts when they go to the can, since some cannot do it for themselves.
Wish I had that sort of training in twi. "Here you go Son, you're a leader now. Be a good servant."
Instead of teaching the "servant" mentality, twi taught the "lord it over others" mentality. Corps, WOW, U of L, LEAD, etc. It wasn't enough to be "Averqage Joe Believer", you had to be a member / grad/ whatever of a certain pogrom to excell.
Woops!! Did I say pogrom??? I really meant a--hemmmmm program. -->
Nuff said. As Man of 1K Names says "The lessons repeat, until they are learned".
" "Limited exposure, with 18 years involvement??" Hmmm. OK -- I'll take you at your word for that, but I will also have to agree about the hierarchy espoused by twi."
I have often been told on GS that my exposure to TWI was limited over a short period of time, which accounts for my one-sided view of Way-Corpse-Nazis.
I found that being in the 'University of Life' as well as career military did not even slow down the recruitment efforts at the 'annual limb meeting'/'Corpse recruitment drive's that occured each year. I was routinely accused of ignoring G-d's desire for my life, by not going Corpse.
"I was never corps, but _did_ get into University of Life. Because of that fact, others looked up to me as one who _"could of been Corps"_, but had sufficient reason to not enter the program "at this time". "
Again not really sure if we ever saw this phenominum, occur.
"And twi did it's best to "alienate" folks by labels, and did so very effectively."
I have seen beleivers blasted for purchasing wonderful 'dove' pins or rings, as they looked too much like the Way-Corpse-Grad rings.
"I currently work at a group home where I am "staff", . . . ."
Keep up the good work, glad to see another beleiver trying to help others. Thank you for your efforts.
[about two nights ago, we got a call from far away, Bonnie and I both had some U-of-L notebooks out reviewing and searching . . . . Going over: Romans and Ephesians. What fun. Still valuable material for us.]
Well... here I go again... I really think it depends on the perspective... (duh, of course it does)...
Galen (quotes are from Galen):
Like Alfakat, I was not around to experience most of the LCM years. I felt that I "saw" what he was and where he was headed and that wasn't my idea of what "God's Ministry" should be (My involvement was 74 to 80/81). As Alfakat also mentioned, it really sounds like "leadership" became hard hearted and mean spirited as the years went on. Not ALL leadership, but certainly a majority.
quote:I am NOT corpse, and from my own personal experience the only people that I ever saw within TWI who did hurt others, or mis-use others, or get into a believer's face and scream was Way-Corpse-grads.
That is truly a sad thing. See, I'm not disagreeing with you, I never have on that issue, I only disagree when you take that experience and then make the statement "ALL corps are".
quote:When I have stated this on Greasespot Cafe, I have been amazed at the out-lash from many posters here.
The "outlash" you speak of that I've seen was for taking your personal experience with some Corps and carte blanche applying it to ALL corps. I think you'd agree that applying your personal experience with individuals across every individual in the program doesn't make it true or fair. I can certainly see why you personally have an ill feeling towards Corps people, it's based upon your experience and it's human nature to think that way. I'm thinking that a large number of the active posters here who were corps would not fall into that category.
quote:That Oh, no they were not responsible for their actions, and ALL the abuse was from VPW / LCM.
Really? That is what you "heard" from those discussions? I guess something got lost in communication. You know I participated in (and read) many of the discussions you speak of. I really do not recall anyone ever saying "they were not responsible for their actions". What I do remember people trying to communicate was "they learned these behaviors from VPW & LCM." And I think the reason (JMO) that people kept focussing on the aspect that they learned how to act from VPW & LCM was because of a perception that you hold VPW in such high esteem. At least that's where I was coming from (and I think a lot of others were as well). We couldn't understand your statements blanketing ALL Corps with a high level of disdain while perceiving that you still held VPW in such high esteem. I don't ever think anyone said "Corps were not responsible for their actions", if they did they're wrong. What I heard being said was "they learned the behavior at the feet of "the teacher" and his successor.
quote:It is an amazing thing to see.
Yes, it would be. As I said above though, I didn't see it in the posts (assuming that posts are what you are referencing here).
quote:Many of the Ex-Way-Corpse do seem to still carry with them the 'identity' of being seperate from an average beleiver.
How so? I always assumed that you used to have "University of Life Grad" in your signature because it was an accomplishment you were proud of. I never took it to mean anything like "ooh, Galen's trying to seperate himself from an average believer." I notice that you no longer have "University of Life Grad" in your signature.
I don't think I've ever seen ANY Corps person put "Corps Grad" in their signature, or any other example of the "puffiness" you allude to other than when people are sharing experiences that happened in residence, usually to help in understanding a story or example, I really haven't seen anyone saying "well, I was Corps". If someone is sharing an experience that happened to them "in residence" or "while on staff" etc., you could hardly fault them for mentioning it as part of the story. It's very similar to you stating in your stories "When I was under the sea" or "When we went to Italy". Could you please give an example or two?
quote:My exposure was fairly limited having only been a follower of TWI for 18 years.
I'm thinking you want people to take this as a sarcastic comment. I could be mistaken. You were "in" for a long time. By your own admission your's was not the normal "innie" experience though was it? Someone reading your post who doesn't know your background wouldn't know that some of those years you only had contact with "leadership" twice a year... you were military and "under the sea" a lot of the time... right? I do not say this to minimize the dastardly actions of the Corps you came in contact with, only to point out that a civilian in your position of leadership would probably have the same overall contact with Corps in a year or two that you had in 18 years... maybe that's why you were able to put up with it for so long.
quote:I am not any nicer or kinder to them than to anyone else. I dont believe so.
I agree with you whole heartedly there. I don't see the "kid glove treatment" that was referred to either. I see people at times trying to be understanding of what others may have gone through and posting appropriately, but like you (I think) I don't see any "chosen" and I certainly don't see anyone holding "this power over others".
quote:Though I have been forced to be more apologetic as anytime we speak the truth about how Way-Corpse-Nazis hurt the body-of-Christ it does offend them so.
Galen, I don't think anyone wants to "force you to be more apologetic"... :)--> I think (as I've stated a few times above) that EXCorps get offended when you use the ALL word.
I think a lot of folks here respect you and your opinions. I know that I do. Part of the reason I've been able to gain that respect is through reading your experiences. You share your experience. That often entails relating some aspect of the military because that was a part of your life. I think it's much the same for EXCorps. It was a part of their life. Much the same way you cannot share a story without mentioning that you were "on base" or "under the sea" they cannot share a story either without saying "when in residence" or "when on staff". It's the perception.
If you want to think they're setting themselves apart "carry(ing) with them the 'identity' of being seperate from an average believer" because they mention these things, so be it. I guess if I had the mindset that ALL Corps were bad, that "the only people that I ever saw within TWI who did hurt others, or mis-use others, or get into a believer's face and scream was Way-Corpse-grads" I'd probably "read" things into what they post as well.
Do you consider this an "outlash"? I sincerely hope not.
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Refiner
Ex dubs are the most notorious "cut and paste" quoters on the net that Ive ever seen. They are always trying to catch people out contradicting themselves.
Many of them have studied their churches old doctrinal books and collected contradictions and changes of position by the cult.
And so they carry the practise on in their online discussions and disputes.
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houseisarockin
In twi that would have been a very loose description of "iron sharpeneth iron"...again I repeat very loose. Questioning one on their views and understanding is good for the gray matter. More than once I have changed mine (views) from this group and now from my home board. It's a good thing indeed.
But searcher, I see this group of which I am one (ex-twi) in many of the same ways as you stated, talk about having been micro-managed and perception of close scrutiny, oh yea how familiar that is.
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A la prochaine
Searcher and Refiner,
Thank you for clarifying this. It is very easy to jump to the defense when someone has been abused in this way.
Due to the fact that I was so brutalized verbally in TWI, I try to stay away from any 'attacks' these days.
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Zshot
If I am understanding what you are saying correctly...
Some ex-jw's like some ex-twi's may be in need of professional mental help.
When someone has left an abusive and/or controlling enviroment (such as a cult). It might not be a bad idea to see if/how many issues need to be addressed. This can only be done by a trained in mental health.
Hopefully, those who need it will realize that they need it, and get it.
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Kit Sober
What's so good about JW?
I can think of good things to come out of twi (some of my best friends were brought up in that place).
I can think of good things to come out of LDS for instance. But JW? I can't think of anything good that came out of that place.
I can think of good things about LDS --
Twi benefits are hotly debated at the Greasespot Cafe, and the depth of affection for the Lord and what He says some attribute to that twi place.
But JW? I can't think of anything good that came out of that place.
JWs have the callous arrogance and disrespect to anyone who believes different that comes with cult membership, but there seems to be no mitigating kindness and affection which comes with any touch of the Lord and of the Holy Spirit.
And from what has been demonstrated by the ex-jws who come to the Greasespot Cafe, the spawns of jw are even worse -- more hardhearted, more arrogant, more disrespectful to other beliefs and concerns.
So what do you ex-jws say is good from jw?
Do you have any benefits you are thankful for?
Did they hold your family together?
What kind of kindness did you learn in jw? (Kindness, I believe, is the mark of Holy Spirit's work.)
Anything?
Kit
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searcher
Kit,
I cannot say anything because I am not ex anything, and so have no first hand knowledge.
As a 'never been' however, I can give an outsiders view of what I see, that is the reason for my post/thread.
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mj412
It sounds like both groups have power plays but I see a difference
JW does not have such a thick line of who is and who isnt really allowed to "hold those in close scruntiny".
many who post here are grads of the corps progrma which is an elite
group inside of twi. the actual" better than" people(groomed to be leaders of the flock by twi) they held the commintment high and longer than the "ordinary believers" who ironicly often paid their way through the program .
This is an hiearchy formed within twi, again it is so ingrained it isnt notice even within their own ranks... you will notice a poster conceeding being extra kind and gentle to way corps grads . At grease spot only the chosen know who the chosen are in the posts and it is clear they often still hold this power over others and within themselves.
twi is not a cult with a even playing board of self righteousness , power, prestige and say so, was earned by the number of years in who you knew , your family memebers and their rank etc.
these mind sets do not erase themselves it takes a humbling process to realize the false throne you sit upon is nothing more than a pile of crap .
the problem is and always has been within a group think setting those who adore and want to pay allegence are just as ignorant, loyal and self righteous with the parasitic nature they learned
while in the cult. hence the desire for grease spot cafe.
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washingtonweather
the idea of catching one in a contradictory statement or some such....is probably the residual of symptamatic cult life....a common thread amoung many ex-cult people.
Trying to shake the imperialistic sense of superiority these cults can bring to ones personality is a humility process all its own.
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Tom Strange
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mj412
I have a friend who has a mother who is an "elder' this friend is fifty something and does not go to church .
but she has never beenn thrown out it would shame her mother so much so mom lies and claims the reason she doesnt attend is for health reason for over thirty years!
her daughter is too ill, although she works full time and lives a normal life concerning attending to everything eles.
hmmmm.
but I recognize the fact this mother has a great deal of control still over my friend , she has always lived in one of her homes and has never married even when in love because her mom didnt like his race etc.
so I guess it may be the same i just have never seen it like I have in twi. also whenever I would reach out in friendship to this girl , we had the love of cats in common and met at a cat store , without fail mom and her friends would come knocking on MY door with their little paper books and wanting to vist!
so in a sense she was still controlled by the cult she was raised in , but had a slight rebellion streak that was controlled by the elders for appearance sake. sad really.
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waterbuffalo
My aunt married someone who was brought up as a JW. He believed a lot of their doctrines up until a few years ago, well, ok, maybe 10 or 15, but who's counting.
Anyway, his family always helped them with stuff even though they weren't involved with the JWs and he was a great husband and father--probably the only sane one that one of my aunts married.
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Galen
mj412:
"many who post here are grads of the corps progrma which is an elite group inside of twi. the actual" better than" people(groomed to be leaders of the flock by twi) they held the commintment high and longer than the "ordinary believers" who ironicly often paid their way through the program"
I am NOT corpse, and from my own personal experience the only people that I ever saw within TWI who did hurt others, or mis-use others, or get into a believer's face and scream was Way-Corpse-grads.
When I have stated this on Greasespot Cafe, I have been amazed at the out-lash from many posters here. That Oh, no they were not responsible for their actions, and ALL the abuse was from VPW / LCM.
It is an amazing thing to see.
Many of the Ex-Way-Corpse do seem to still carry with them the 'identity' of being seperate from an average beleiver. My exposure was fairly limited having only been a follower of TWI for 18 years.
:-)
"This is an hiearchy formed within twi, again it is so ingrained it isnt notice even within their own ranks... you will notice a poster conceeding being extra kind and gentle to way corps grads . At grease spot only the chosen know who the chosen are in the posts and it is clear they often still hold this power over others and within themselves."
Hmm, kind of. I am not any nicer or kinder to them than to anyone else. I dont believe so. Though I have been forced to be more apologetic as anytime we speak the truth about how Way-Corpse-Nazis hurt the body-of-Christ it does offend them so.
". . . hence the desire for grease spot cafe."
I dont agree, I like GS, as herein I have found contact with a few others who share my world-view.
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mj412
yes
it isnt everyone I am not corpse , I wouldnt have a chance to post if it was everyone.
I notice it mostly in flare ups over the off shoots or doctrines .
when the little people get out of hand they tend come to lead us back to reality and the flock will fall in line .
watch you will see it . but galen you do not get into to many heated discussions cause um your a nice guy and all. try be a little less diplomatic and agreeing with the status quo here and you may recognize the idea more.
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alfakat
get over it, Galen---- you knew a few people and had some small contact with other dozens and you cannot seem to discriminate between that fact and the idea that there were thousands in the corps and that the majority(over 50%) were not that way...
this would be before 85, 86...I have NO idea how f-ed up they became after that but reports would indicate that they, in general, followed lcm down the primrose path to hades. Why did you stay involved, Galen?? If the kork represented the "heart" of the ministry and you despised them so, why did you stay so long?? hmmmm.....
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excathedra
did a lot more wayfers know each other before when they were "IN" than dubs ?
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Raf
Excy,
Depends on you you're counting. The JDubs have, currently, 6,000,000 members worldwide. At it's PEAK, TWI had between one and two percent of that number (and that's assuming all 100,000 people who took PFAL stuck with TWI, not a safe assumption). It's far more likely that two TWI people will know each other than two JWs.
Tell me if I'm wrong: in many cities, all TWI members knew each other.
In JW land, you're Mr. Popular if you know more than half the people in your congregation.
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mj412
ex.
it was built on family and friends for the most part.. then outreach which met anyone who was got in were to make twi folks their family and friends. the time it took to maintain twi for folks was incredible after pfal it sucked your time and resources in like a vacum and for many of us when we left we had nothing left of a life without twi and its people.
nothing and that is why so many had to flee to the off shoots .
we forgot how to live without the influence and we didnt know how to think of a life when we didnt pay someone money to tell us gods words etc... pathetic.
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Tom Strange
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dmiller
"Limited exposure, with 18 years involvement??" Hmmm. OK -- I'll take you at your word for that, but I will also have to agree about the hierarchy espoused by twi.
I was never corps, but did get into University of Life. Because of that fact, others looked up to me as one who "could of been Corps", but had sufficient reason to not enter the program "at this time".
-->
Did that make me any more "spiritual" than "Average Joe Believer"?? In their eyes it did, and I gotta admit, for a while I thought so too.
Took me a while to realize that I was saved by grace, just like "Average Joe Believer", and that my "standing with the "ministry" of twi was a whole lot different than my "standing in Christ".
Unfortunately -- yes. The caste system is still there. And twi did it's best to "alienate" folks by labels, and did so very effectively.
I currently work at a group home where I am "staff", and the guys that live there know it. I am in charge, yet if need be, I have to wipe their butts when they go to the can, since some cannot do it for themselves.
Wish I had that sort of training in twi. "Here you go Son, you're a leader now. Be a good servant."
Instead of teaching the "servant" mentality, twi taught the "lord it over others" mentality. Corps, WOW, U of L, LEAD, etc. It wasn't enough to be "Averqage Joe Believer", you had to be a member / grad/ whatever of a certain pogrom to excell.
Woops!!
Did I say pogrom??? I really meant a--hemmmmm program. 
-->
Nuff said. As Man of 1K Names says "The lessons repeat, until they are learned".
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dmiller
Searcher -- Sorry bro, didn't mean to de-rail here.
We were "micro-managed" too.
:(-->
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searcher
No problem
:D--> it is fascinating to learn.
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dmiller
Thought you might think so.
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Galen
dmiller:
" "Limited exposure, with 18 years involvement??" Hmmm. OK -- I'll take you at your word for that, but I will also have to agree about the hierarchy espoused by twi."
I have often been told on GS that my exposure to TWI was limited over a short period of time, which accounts for my one-sided view of Way-Corpse-Nazis.
I found that being in the 'University of Life' as well as career military did not even slow down the recruitment efforts at the 'annual limb meeting'/'Corpse recruitment drive's that occured each year. I was routinely accused of ignoring G-d's desire for my life, by not going Corpse.
"I was never corps, but _did_ get into University of Life. Because of that fact, others looked up to me as one who _"could of been Corps"_, but had sufficient reason to not enter the program "at this time". "
Again not really sure if we ever saw this phenominum, occur.
"And twi did it's best to "alienate" folks by labels, and did so very effectively."
I have seen beleivers blasted for purchasing wonderful 'dove' pins or rings, as they looked too much like the Way-Corpse-Grad rings.
"I currently work at a group home where I am "staff", . . . ."
Keep up the good work, glad to see another beleiver trying to help others. Thank you for your efforts.
[about two nights ago, we got a call from far away, Bonnie and I both had some U-of-L notebooks out reviewing and searching . . . . Going over: Romans and Ephesians. What fun. Still valuable material for us.]
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Tom Strange
Well... here I go again... I really think it depends on the perspective... (duh, of course it does)...
Galen (quotes are from Galen):
Like Alfakat, I was not around to experience most of the LCM years. I felt that I "saw" what he was and where he was headed and that wasn't my idea of what "God's Ministry" should be (My involvement was 74 to 80/81). As Alfakat also mentioned, it really sounds like "leadership" became hard hearted and mean spirited as the years went on. Not ALL leadership, but certainly a majority.
That is truly a sad thing. See, I'm not disagreeing with you, I never have on that issue, I only disagree when you take that experience and then make the statement "ALL corps are".The "outlash" you speak of that I've seen was for taking your personal experience with some Corps and carte blanche applying it to ALL corps. I think you'd agree that applying your personal experience with individuals across every individual in the program doesn't make it true or fair. I can certainly see why you personally have an ill feeling towards Corps people, it's based upon your experience and it's human nature to think that way. I'm thinking that a large number of the active posters here who were corps would not fall into that category. Really? That is what you "heard" from those discussions? I guess something got lost in communication. You know I participated in (and read) many of the discussions you speak of. I really do not recall anyone ever saying "they were not responsible for their actions". What I do remember people trying to communicate was "they learned these behaviors from VPW & LCM." And I think the reason (JMO) that people kept focussing on the aspect that they learned how to act from VPW & LCM was because of a perception that you hold VPW in such high esteem. At least that's where I was coming from (and I think a lot of others were as well). We couldn't understand your statements blanketing ALL Corps with a high level of disdain while perceiving that you still held VPW in such high esteem. I don't ever think anyone said "Corps were not responsible for their actions", if they did they're wrong. What I heard being said was "they learned the behavior at the feet of "the teacher" and his successor.Yes, it would be. As I said above though, I didn't see it in the posts (assuming that posts are what you are referencing here).How so? I always assumed that you used to have "University of Life Grad" in your signature because it was an accomplishment you were proud of. I never took it to mean anything like "ooh, Galen's trying to seperate himself from an average believer." I notice that you no longer have "University of Life Grad" in your signature.I don't think I've ever seen ANY Corps person put "Corps Grad" in their signature, or any other example of the "puffiness" you allude to other than when people are sharing experiences that happened in residence, usually to help in understanding a story or example, I really haven't seen anyone saying "well, I was Corps". If someone is sharing an experience that happened to them "in residence" or "while on staff" etc., you could hardly fault them for mentioning it as part of the story. It's very similar to you stating in your stories "When I was under the sea" or "When we went to Italy". Could you please give an example or two?
I'm thinking you want people to take this as a sarcastic comment. I could be mistaken. You were "in" for a long time. By your own admission your's was not the normal "innie" experience though was it? Someone reading your post who doesn't know your background wouldn't know that some of those years you only had contact with "leadership" twice a year... you were military and "under the sea" a lot of the time... right? I do not say this to minimize the dastardly actions of the Corps you came in contact with, only to point out that a civilian in your position of leadership would probably have the same overall contact with Corps in a year or two that you had in 18 years... maybe that's why you were able to put up with it for so long. I agree with you whole heartedly there. I don't see the "kid glove treatment" that was referred to either. I see people at times trying to be understanding of what others may have gone through and posting appropriately, but like you (I think) I don't see any "chosen" and I certainly don't see anyone holding "this power over others".Galen, I don't think anyone wants to "force you to be more apologetic"...I think a lot of folks here respect you and your opinions. I know that I do. Part of the reason I've been able to gain that respect is through reading your experiences. You share your experience. That often entails relating some aspect of the military because that was a part of your life. I think it's much the same for EXCorps. It was a part of their life. Much the same way you cannot share a story without mentioning that you were "on base" or "under the sea" they cannot share a story either without saying "when in residence" or "when on staff". It's the perception.
If you want to think they're setting themselves apart "carry(ing) with them the 'identity' of being seperate from an average believer" because they mention these things, so be it. I guess if I had the mindset that ALL Corps were bad, that "the only people that I ever saw within TWI who did hurt others, or mis-use others, or get into a believer's face and scream was Way-Corpse-grads" I'd probably "read" things into what they post as well.
Do you consider this an "outlash"? I sincerely hope not.
Take Care.
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