That book sounds like it makes some pretty good points Pat,
It is common that feeling, as time passes though and you distance yourself from twi....the decisions become easier....you relax and realise that mistakes are not a reason to become tied up in knots....
You tend to become philosophical about making decisions...knowing that even the mistakes sometimes lead down some fascinating roads that you wouldn`t have normally traveled, but wouldn`t have missed it for the world.
We were so hard on ourselves in twi....we come away desperatly afraid of making the wrong choice.....
EVERYBODY makes mistakes....most people don`t even think about it....most just pause, take another look at the map and head off in a new direction....the trick for me I have found is to attempt to relax and enjoy the journey instead of sweating out how I am going to arrive at my destination.
In TWI we were led to believe that they were all life or death, that we could end up "out of fellowship" and outside of God's blessings and protection. It put us in a mental straight jacket.
I now believe God is so much bigger than that. If we truely love Him, He knows that and his care is constant. He can always cover for our silly mistakes.
my thoughts on mistakes.. if you don't make them you are doing nothing! never be afraid of making mistakes i do almost every day and hopefully i learn from them a become a better person because of it
The whole sin thing that twi putin my head freaks my life out!
Yes it has messed up my life.
a standard hmm? pretty tough to live by.
I watch my adult children and they make choices without the turmoil of what God would think and they are fine and in fact alot of the world does christians and leaders in off shoots included!!
but no I sit here and doubt myslef and maybe do not do what I want becuase God and some of the teachings I have heard..
bother me mess up my life?
yeah . if there is a bema good lord I cant wait what kind of attitude is that in Life hmm? I wish I could be better.
... he said we should do "What works" instead of "What's right". -Pat
Pat, I've found I'm much happier asking "Is this idea useful?" than asking "Is it on the word? or is it right?"
It kind of assumes an innate goodness in ourselves that something obviously wrong wouldn't work, or wouldn't be useful. For example, even if I could get away with a lie or cheating on my wife, or stealing something, it wouldn't work for me. I wouldn't find it useful because of the inner consequences.
Funny that obviously the way didn't want people to assume they had that innate goodness, when in fact the top leadership didn't seem to have it at all.
I just read a review of "The Sociopath Next Door" by Martha Stout. She's a psychologist and estimates that fully one person in 25 don't have the ability to feel regret when they abuse people. Google it.
You say that you make decisions by asking yourself "is this idea useful?", but in determining whether it will be useful, you consider the "inner consequences". This is what I'm talking about. My inner consequences have to a large degree been manufactured by TWI, rather than by my own conscience. And you mention asking whether it is "on the Word" (which is Way-thinking for sure, because anyone else would ask whether it is "IN the Word), there is also confusion, because we were given so much mis-information about the Word. For me, there is definitely a loss of confidence in myself as well, and so I find myself second-guessing many things that I do, or not doing things because it might be wrong - or it might not, but let's not risk it. And as time goes by, I wonder if this craziness is not getting worse, instead of better. -Pat
When a decision needs to be made, the Way teachings do pop up--I spent almost all my adult life there, so that is just an unpleasant side affect of that long, bad decision.
I decided some time ago that TWI didn't know squat about life. They new lots of itty bitty details about words,they knew how to motivate people by fear, not about life outside TWI.
So when a decision comes up, followed by the TWI thought, I guess I 'de-renew' my mind. What needs to be done? What do I really want? WWNPD--what would normal people do? What can I afford? what does Hubby think?
After I make a decision, if it turns out to be not the best--oh well. Maybe there is something to learn from it. Maybe not.
Since leaving TWI, I've been pleasantly surprised at how well we have been able to handle life.
If it helps any, your personality and conscience were formed many years before you got involved with the way. (Unless of course you were born into it, which most of us weren't.)
My3cents happens to be a well-balanced human, (obviously) and is speaking from that point of view. Fortunately, I think most of us can relate? Even though we were involved in a destructive cult, most of us were at least teenagers before we got involved. I know some weren't, but, we have a point of reference that was pre-cult? yes?
In your first post. I know exactly where you are comming from. When I first got out a lot of my decisions were made by what I learned at twi. Time and what ex 10th said (reverting back to pre twi days, on how you made decisions)saved my a$$. Having said that even though I have been out a long time. I still get the same thoughts you do today "twi or not". When my mind does that I have to lose that feeling and go by gut.
I can still hear those teachings in my mind today when I have to make decisions. It is not nearly as haunting as it once was and I have more or less learned to ignore them.
Like some said here in this thread. We are going to make mistakes. IMHO, Make the decision and hope you are right but if your wrong do what you should do and learn from it. Either a right or a wrong decision will help you learn more about you and it will not haunt you so much.
Those damn people effed so many heads up. If you can and are able and WANT to, go see a professional.
Maybe it would help clarify if examples were given as to what kind of decisions.
My days are filled with decisions, many are what I would call just going with the flow. Often with these there are no right answers. Like groceries, which store to shop at etc.
Then there are big decisions, career, relationships and so forth. Some have good solid scriptural guidance and some, well hate to say it; but we are on our own as God doesn’t really care which route we take.
Oh, behind the walls of Zion everything was micro managed, more of slight of hand to keep our noses buried so we wouldn’t see what was really going on around us. So, some decisions matter and some don’t, despite Way world lack of logic.
Thanks, and Happy Easter to you. I didn't mean to put down My3Cents. If I remember correctly, he is one of the guys we were in Family Corps with - by another name, of course - and you are so right - he is very "balanced", one of the most sensible (cents-able?) men we encountered in that nightmare. I take his views quite seriously. And about my conscience - yes, it was developed long before TWI, but altered I think due to TWI. Wasn't yours? Professional help - yep, I've done that, am still doing that. The best advice I got from a counselor ... was just what you said: Gotta find that person I used to be. She suggested resuming my artwork, something I loved as a child, and a teen, and then got to busy to do. I started painting again a couple of years ago, and did in fact start finding that old self in the process. Thanks for reminding me. -Pat
And about my conscience - yes, it was developed long before TWI, but altered I think due to TWI. Wasn't yours? Professional help - yep, I've done that, am still doing that. The best advice I got from a counselor ... was just what you said: Gotta find that person I used to be. She suggested resuming my artwork, something I loved as a child, and a teen, and then got to busy to do. I started painting again a couple of years ago, and did in fact start finding that old self in the process. Thanks for reminding me. -Pat
Thanks to you and Ex10 for all the kind words. I was in the 5th way corps - don't know if that's when you were there or not. Feel free to email me direct. John@sbcoach.com
As for getting back to who you were - I just read an advice columnist today (in salon.com). The person asked about seeming to fall back into old mental habits after having done a lot of work. The coumnist said "remember you can't get cured of life".
Don't be too hard on yourself. Keep at it and enjoy what you can. Just asking the questions means you're a lot farther along than you were - and further than many people who have gotten out but didn't really change.
Also - speaking from lots of experience - the quality of professional help depends a lot on the professional. Also on the match between their background and your needs. I hope the one you're going to has experience and training in cults and the resulting trauma. If not, you might it helpful to find someone who does.
Lianne, I'm reading "The Power of Now" right now!! It is an awesome book, Schwaigers!
I also highly recommend, if you haven't already read it, Steve Hassan's "Freedom of Mind: Enabling People to Think for Themselves" It talks about our "authentic self" and how it's compromised in cults and how to get back in touch with our "authentic self", as well as drawing that out of people we are able to be in contact with who are still trapped in a cult.
I also happen to like Tom Strange's signature "I'd rather have something to regret than nothing to remember" and think of it at times when I'm tempted to not do something because it's new, scary or so very different than something I would have done in TWI.
quote:
you relax and realise that mistakes are not a reason to become tied up in knots....
Extremely sage advice here, too, I think. I realize that it's not necessarily the making the decisions that's a problem, but rather the thought processes leading UP to the decision. Is it possible for you to leave the Bible and God completely out of your decision making process for a while? Not turning your back on God, but making decisions based solely on common sense or "gut feeling" (for lack of a better term). I think if you could do that, you would find that your decisions DO line up with God's will and that you are much more capable of making right decisions and taking care of yourself and your family than you give yourself credit for.
I was told and treated as if I was incredibly stupid, ignorant and lazy while I was married and in TWI. I was not trusted to make major decisions and was chastised anytime I did or said something my ex or leadership disagreed with. I began to believe them and when I got out and divorced I went through a very rough time. I second guessed myself a lot --- A LOT!! I probably wore my parents out asking their advice and not feeling very confident in my ability to make intelligent choices. They helped me heal immensely by beginning to ask me what I thought the right decision would be and other probing questions. Then they would tell me if they agree with my decision or not (which 99.9% of the time they did agree with me). Eventually I began to trust myself and now I can see that I do know what's best for me and I do a pretty darn good job of taking care of Belle. (Her house isn't always clean and she sometimes makes bad decisions, but they are hers and never nearly as bad as TWI made her feel that they were.)
Fear of making a wrong decision never allowed for making a real decision. How can you learn from experience if you're never allowed to be wrong?
Very true. Ironically, when people lord over or at best hover-you feel wrong all the time even if their motive is to protect you.
It took me a while to not stress so much about making decisions. I had been "reproved" over so many silly things that most normal people wouldn't have thought twice about. Yet I was worn down having to "rethink" even the most minor of decisions I had made. It left me not even wanting to choose what restaurant to go to because it seemed like too much of a responsibility. What if it didn't "bless" everyone?
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rascal
That book sounds like it makes some pretty good points Pat,
It is common that feeling, as time passes though and you distance yourself from twi....the decisions become easier....you relax and realise that mistakes are not a reason to become tied up in knots....
You tend to become philosophical about making decisions...knowing that even the mistakes sometimes lead down some fascinating roads that you wouldn`t have normally traveled, but wouldn`t have missed it for the world.
We were so hard on ourselves in twi....we come away desperatly afraid of making the wrong choice.....
EVERYBODY makes mistakes....most people don`t even think about it....most just pause, take another look at the map and head off in a new direction....the trick for me I have found is to attempt to relax and enjoy the journey instead of sweating out how I am going to arrive at my destination.
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outandabout
That's so true - mistakes are unavoidable.
In TWI we were led to believe that they were all life or death, that we could end up "out of fellowship" and outside of God's blessings and protection. It put us in a mental straight jacket.
I now believe God is so much bigger than that. If we truely love Him, He knows that and his care is constant. He can always cover for our silly mistakes.
Most mistakes are not a matter of life and death.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
my thoughts on mistakes.. if you don't make them you are doing nothing! never be afraid of making mistakes i do almost every day and hopefully i learn from them a become a better person because of it
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mj412
The whole sin thing that twi putin my head freaks my life out!
Yes it has messed up my life.
a standard hmm? pretty tough to live by.
I watch my adult children and they make choices without the turmoil of what God would think and they are fine and in fact alot of the world does christians and leaders in off shoots included!!
but no I sit here and doubt myslef and maybe do not do what I want becuase God and some of the teachings I have heard..
bother me mess up my life?
yeah . if there is a bema good lord I cant wait what kind of attitude is that in Life hmm? I wish I could be better.
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Zshot
I don't make more than 1 mistake a day...
Of course if there are any other mistakes that day it is directly linked to the 1st mistake of the day...
And that mistake would be... getting out of bed
:o--> 
:P-->
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My3Cents
Pat, I've found I'm much happier asking "Is this idea useful?" than asking "Is it on the word? or is it right?"
It kind of assumes an innate goodness in ourselves that something obviously wrong wouldn't work, or wouldn't be useful. For example, even if I could get away with a lie or cheating on my wife, or stealing something, it wouldn't work for me. I wouldn't find it useful because of the inner consequences.
Funny that obviously the way didn't want people to assume they had that innate goodness, when in fact the top leadership didn't seem to have it at all.
I just read a review of "The Sociopath Next Door" by Martha Stout. She's a psychologist and estimates that fully one person in 25 don't have the ability to feel regret when they abuse people. Google it.
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Schwaigers
3 Cents,
You say that you make decisions by asking yourself "is this idea useful?", but in determining whether it will be useful, you consider the "inner consequences". This is what I'm talking about. My inner consequences have to a large degree been manufactured by TWI, rather than by my own conscience. And you mention asking whether it is "on the Word" (which is Way-thinking for sure, because anyone else would ask whether it is "IN the Word), there is also confusion, because we were given so much mis-information about the Word. For me, there is definitely a loss of confidence in myself as well, and so I find myself second-guessing many things that I do, or not doing things because it might be wrong - or it might not, but let's not risk it. And as time goes by, I wonder if this craziness is not getting worse, instead of better. -Pat
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Bramble
When a decision needs to be made, the Way teachings do pop up--I spent almost all my adult life there, so that is just an unpleasant side affect of that long, bad decision.
I decided some time ago that TWI didn't know squat about life. They new lots of itty bitty details about words,they knew how to motivate people by fear, not about life outside TWI.
So when a decision comes up, followed by the TWI thought, I guess I 'de-renew' my mind. What needs to be done? What do I really want? WWNPD--what would normal people do? What can I afford? what does Hubby think?
After I make a decision, if it turns out to be not the best--oh well. Maybe there is something to learn from it. Maybe not.
Since leaving TWI, I've been pleasantly surprised at how well we have been able to handle life.
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ex10
Pat,
If it helps any, your personality and conscience were formed many years before you got involved with the way. (Unless of course you were born into it, which most of us weren't.)
My3cents happens to be a well-balanced human, (obviously) and is speaking from that point of view. Fortunately, I think most of us can relate? Even though we were involved in a destructive cult, most of us were at least teenagers before we got involved. I know some weren't, but, we have a point of reference that was pre-cult? yes?
We need to find that person once again, I think.
Love you so, dear.
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justloafing
Pat,
In your first post. I know exactly where you are comming from. When I first got out a lot of my decisions were made by what I learned at twi. Time and what ex 10th said (reverting back to pre twi days, on how you made decisions)saved my a$$. Having said that even though I have been out a long time. I still get the same thoughts you do today "twi or not". When my mind does that I have to lose that feeling and go by gut.
I can still hear those teachings in my mind today when I have to make decisions. It is not nearly as haunting as it once was and I have more or less learned to ignore them.
Like some said here in this thread. We are going to make mistakes. IMHO, Make the decision and hope you are right but if your wrong do what you should do and learn from it. Either a right or a wrong decision will help you learn more about you and it will not haunt you so much.
Those damn people effed so many heads up. If you can and are able and WANT to, go see a professional.
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wingnut
Maybe it would help clarify if examples were given as to what kind of decisions.
My days are filled with decisions, many are what I would call just going with the flow. Often with these there are no right answers. Like groceries, which store to shop at etc.
Then there are big decisions, career, relationships and so forth. Some have good solid scriptural guidance and some, well hate to say it; but we are on our own as God doesn’t really care which route we take.
Oh, behind the walls of Zion everything was micro managed, more of slight of hand to keep our noses buried so we wouldn’t see what was really going on around us. So, some decisions matter and some don’t, despite Way world lack of logic.
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Schwaigers
Ex 10 ...
Thanks, and Happy Easter to you. I didn't mean to put down My3Cents. If I remember correctly, he is one of the guys we were in Family Corps with - by another name, of course - and you are so right - he is very "balanced", one of the most sensible (cents-able?) men we encountered in that nightmare. I take his views quite seriously. And about my conscience - yes, it was developed long before TWI, but altered I think due to TWI. Wasn't yours? Professional help - yep, I've done that, am still doing that. The best advice I got from a counselor ... was just what you said: Gotta find that person I used to be. She suggested resuming my artwork, something I loved as a child, and a teen, and then got to busy to do. I started painting again a couple of years ago, and did in fact start finding that old self in the process. Thanks for reminding me. -Pat
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My3Cents
Thanks to you and Ex10 for all the kind words. I was in the 5th way corps - don't know if that's when you were there or not. Feel free to email me direct. John@sbcoach.com
As for getting back to who you were - I just read an advice columnist today (in salon.com). The person asked about seeming to fall back into old mental habits after having done a lot of work. The coumnist said "remember you can't get cured of life".
Don't be too hard on yourself. Keep at it and enjoy what you can. Just asking the questions means you're a lot farther along than you were - and further than many people who have gotten out but didn't really change.
Also - speaking from lots of experience - the quality of professional help depends a lot on the professional. Also on the match between their background and your needs. I hope the one you're going to has experience and training in cults and the resulting trauma. If not, you might it helpful to find someone who does.
Keep painting!
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DaddyHoundog
Check out the book...
The Power of Now
by
Eckhart Tolle
ight help with geting some of those things back into perspective.
Lianne
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Belle
Lianne, I'm reading "The Power of Now" right now!! It is an awesome book, Schwaigers!
I also highly recommend, if you haven't already read it, Steve Hassan's "Freedom of Mind: Enabling People to Think for Themselves" It talks about our "authentic self" and how it's compromised in cults and how to get back in touch with our "authentic self", as well as drawing that out of people we are able to be in contact with who are still trapped in a cult.
I also happen to like Tom Strange's signature "I'd rather have something to regret than nothing to remember" and think of it at times when I'm tempted to not do something because it's new, scary or so very different than something I would have done in TWI.
Extremely sage advice here, too, I think. I realize that it's not necessarily the making the decisions that's a problem, but rather the thought processes leading UP to the decision. Is it possible for you to leave the Bible and God completely out of your decision making process for a while? Not turning your back on God, but making decisions based solely on common sense or "gut feeling" (for lack of a better term). I think if you could do that, you would find that your decisions DO line up with God's will and that you are much more capable of making right decisions and taking care of yourself and your family than you give yourself credit for.
I was told and treated as if I was incredibly stupid, ignorant and lazy while I was married and in TWI. I was not trusted to make major decisions and was chastised anytime I did or said something my ex or leadership disagreed with. I began to believe them and when I got out and divorced I went through a very rough time. I second guessed myself a lot --- A LOT!! I probably wore my parents out asking their advice and not feeling very confident in my ability to make intelligent choices. They helped me heal immensely by beginning to ask me what I thought the right decision would be and other probing questions. Then they would tell me if they agree with my decision or not (which 99.9% of the time they did agree with me). Eventually I began to trust myself and now I can see that I do know what's best for me and I do a pretty darn good job of taking care of Belle. (Her house isn't always clean and she sometimes makes bad decisions, but they are hers and never nearly as bad as TWI made her feel that they were.)
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Bolshevik
Fear of making a wrong decision never allowed for making a real decision. How can you learn from experience if you're never allowed to be wrong?
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crystalclearblue
Very true. Ironically, when people lord over or at best hover-you feel wrong all the time even if their motive is to protect you.
It took me a while to not stress so much about making decisions. I had been "reproved" over so many silly things that most normal people wouldn't have thought twice about. Yet I was worn down having to "rethink" even the most minor of decisions I had made. It left me not even wanting to choose what restaurant to go to because it seemed like too much of a responsibility. What if it didn't "bless" everyone?
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