Hey johniam, your posts are annoying and drive me up the wall. How about some of us take you out back and knock the stupid out of you? Clearly you "deserve it". Yeah I guess I could leave GS or not read your posts, but I feel that my only real option is to kick your foot.
Bad idea?
Sounds pretty wacko when I say it like that, doesn't it?
Go back and re-read your "clock her like she deserves" post in the light of someone "clocking" YOU like you deserve.
Steve, if I'm suffering from Tunnel Vision, then so are you my friend!
What was I "sheltered" from? Perhaps not having to deal with a family who wasn't involved with twi, for years. Since my whole family was involved, it was a blessing. But the "connections" argument doesn't make my experience or opinions any less valid than yours, or anyone elses.
Oh and btw, if you asked those of my family who are still alive, if there was widespread female gender abuse, they'd probably say it's preposterous, like I just have. What nonsense.
Yeah, as I undertand it, oldies, some of em understood the unique responsibilities required of one functioning at such a high area of spiritual responsibility....there in lay their value.
What would you call the Corp/VPW taught practice of getting a female believer (preferably young and nubile) to 'meet the Man of God's needs', or else depicting the refuser as a cop-out, possessed, and all the other names that went along with it? What would you call the blind and goosestepping closing of ranks around VPW when his abusive actions were proven and verified according to the biblical standard of two or more witnesses? (Yes, Virginia, they were)
Umm Oldiesman? Could I have a private word with you in the pt? I think I may be able to help, if the rest of you don't mind. I just hate to see all of this ugliness going on here. Yes, I put on my asbestos suit , but it doesn't help too much.
quote: It's always wrong for a man to hit a woman. Nobody can drive you up a wall, you have to do that yourself...johniam, I hate to say this, but you sound like a sicko.
It's ALWAYS wrong for a man to hit a woman? I've posted this before, but I'll do it again just for you. In 1996 at the Democratic convention the "right reverend" Hillary Clinton said how proud she was that her husband is the first president who ever said that a man should never hit a woman. Then two years and change later she whacked him in the face with a cell phone knowing he was going to be on TV one hour later. I hate to say this, but you sound like a stooge.
John n oldies, THAT attitude is a shining example of what years of participation in twi develops within one....It ain`t pretty....It ain`t christian, and it certainly ain`t right, not by a long shot.
Come on Frankee, being a christian, doesn`t mean you have to be a wuss, surely your eyes are not so tender that names can offend you to the point of fleeing?
Shoot as far as name calling goes, Jesus had a few choice nasties reserved for guys hurting folks.....
quote:Just because some women had power in TWI, and that the current prez is a woman, doesn't negate widespread abuse of women.
It's a cybermyth that there was widespread female gender abuse.
I wouldn't have been involved in a group/movement for almost 20 years, had there been widespread female abuse in it. That's preposterous.
guffaw, om we already know that you are not 'all' there.....if you were in twi and was involved it was there right before your face...for a guy I guess, that so believed it really put your shoulders back and head up high to have the man totally in charge, huh, om?
quote: Hey johniam, your posts are annoying and drive me up the wall. How about some of us take you out back and knock the stupid out of you? Clearly you "deserve it". Yeah I guess I could leave GS or not read your posts, but I feel that my only real option is to kick your foot.
Bad idea?
Sounds pretty wacko when I say it like that, doesn't it?
Go back and re-read your "clock her like she deserves" post in the light of someone "clocking" YOU like you deserve.
Actually, I'm glad you brought this up. You've been married. You know that reading posts on a website is quite different than being in the same living space with someone and hearing the tone of their voice. How about this? If a MAN speaks non stop and drives you up a wall deliberately, then that same man deserves to get clocked, too.
This is all an extention of spanking children. It's a matter of degrees; you don't brutalize them, but they have to know that if their behavior gets far enough out of bounds, then there will be consequences. Why should they learn this by getting beat up on the elementary school playground or by getting sent to jail when they can learn it in the "comfort" of their home and family. I learned this in an eye opening way.
I remember four times getting spanked as a child. All 4 times my mom was present. Two of the four, my mom defended me; the other two, she did not. When she did not defend me, I had either mouthed off to her in earshot of my dad or disobeyed her. When she did defend me, my dad had over reacted. Either way, the message was successfully sent to me that if I did not respect authority then there would be consequuences. I'm sure some here believe that children should never be spanked. Glad I don't live in Sweden.
But why, Oak, do you assign this celestial value to women but not to men. We all need to get put in our place; otherwise we could become like LCM. Don't you think he should have gotten clocked at some point in time? Not by a judge's ruling or a BOD decision, but by a fist!
and Jesus said, let every man woman and child be clocked as they so deserve.....
and yay ye shall be the judge of when they shall have merrited such treatment, knowing this, that they have earned the wages of their sin.... for the unpardonable foolishness of not knowing when to shut up in your presence....selah
Shoot too bad andrea didn`t have someone like you to smack her around when she needed it n make her straighten up.
I challenge any one of you right now to think back about anything that ever scarred you during your life. Was it somebody beating you up, or was it verbal abuse? Sticks and stones can break my bones but names will never hurt me. Yeah, right!
Hey, Rascal. You feelin' emotional about now? Getting physical is not a strategy, it's a last resort, like spankings, war, bankruptcy, the death penalty, the lake of fire, and many other things. Perhaps you should take a time out.
Twi was really good at helping one justify the perpetrating of evil John, and making it seem oh so logical and acceptable.... you have learned well grass hoppa (no offense to our own local dear GH).
p.s. wouldn ya just love to be able to reach through this screen n clock me one to shut me up?? lol
johniam says..."Why should they learn this by getting beat up on the elementary school playground or by getting sent to jail when they can learn it in the "comfort" of their home and family."
OK, I have a theory...I think johniam is totally goofing on us...he's seeing how many buttons he can push by saying these outrageous things! This is his way of having fun...first, he says the most outrageous and stupid thing he can think of, and then waits for our responses! He is probably drinking a cold beer and laughing his foot off as he reads the posts!...Am I right? C'mon fess up...I'm on to you now...nobody could possibly suggest that it's better to beat your child at home to teach him a lesson, than to have them get beat at school to learn the lesson..I think you got carried away with your own sense of humor...C'mon now, fess up and we'll all laugh together...
quote:If a fly or mosquito buzzed in your ear for several seconds at a time you'd probably swat at it involuntarily until it stopped.
Are you saying, then, that if a woman verbally annoys a man, his involuntary response is to hit her??? I'd say that's a scary thought, if a man can't control his reactions any better than that. (And I'd say the same of a woman who clobbered her husband with a skillet because he annoyed her.)
What about just walking away until the annoying woman shuts up? And if she never can regain her composure in these situations, if she never shuts up, how about going for counseling and figuring out why? Or, failing that, how about divorcing her?
How can you even consider "clocking her" a viable solution to anything?
quote:That's not violent or abusive, it's merely being human and needing your space.
So hitting a woman is justified if you "need your space"? Man, I can't believe what I'm reading here.
quote: I personally believe that 90% of so called domestic violence cases are initiated by the woman. They get emotional, they don't know or care when to shut up, they keep verbally hammering away at that man non stop, driving him up a wall.......the only defense that man has is to either flee his own house, or clock her like she deserves.
90%??? You just make this stuff up, don't you? And "so-called" domestic violence cases??? You astound me. You think when a man beats the crap out of a woman, it's just so-called abuse?
I'll grant you that some women don't know when to back off and let things cool down. But that in no way justifies hitting them.
quote:But how convenient it's illegal for him to do that.
Convenient??? In case you haven't noticed, most men are FAR stronger than most women. It's illegal because if it weren't, there wouldn't be a deterrent that would keep men who feel like you apparently do from killing the women in their lives--because they needed their space.
Good Lord in heaven.
I think you are a man born out of his proper era. If I'm reading you right, you should have lived when women were no more than property... mere chattel to do with as the men would like.
Back to the original subject (before I get "swatted like a fly" for daring to speak up to a man...
I still contend that the father in this case is partly responsible for what happened to his children.
Let's say for the sake of argument, that I had a mentally handicapped adult male child who happened to be a rapist of little girls, and I knew this about him. Then let's say I let him watch over a group of my daughter's young friends who were having a slumber party at our house, while I went off shopping. And let's say he raped several of them.
Yes, in that scenario, my son would be a criminal, but are you trying to tell me I'd share none of the blame?
That woman's husband knew about her mental state. He left their children in her care, with no one else supervising. And you think he shares none of the blame?
You've totally sidetracked this discussion by claiming that to say the husband shared the responsibility is "men bashing" by the way. I happen to like men--a lot. I happen to think most of them are great. I also happen to think the man who fathered those five babies made a huge mistake and is partly to blame for their deaths.
Linda Z. You drew up a scenario here. I will quote you:
quote: Let's say for the sake of argument, that I had a mentally handicapped adult male child who happened to be a rapist of little girls, and I knew this about him. Then let's say I let him watch over a group of my daughter's young friends who were having a slumber party at our house, while I went off shopping. And let's say he raped several of them.
Yes, in that scenario, my son would be a criminal, but are you trying to tell me I'd share none of the blame?
To me, in this scenario, you are correct in saying that you as the mother would be guilty for letting this fictitious "adult male rapist child" watch over your teen aged daughters slumber party, and he then therefore went and raped and murdered them all while you were out at Bloomingdales or whatever.
But, this scenario is not valid, because Ms Andrea Yates was not a "known child murderer". She was not known to have had problems with murdering children. She had lived all of her life as a mother without murdering any of them. Who could have guessed it? She was known to have severe mental problems, but not to the extent that completely took EVERYONE INVOLVED by surprise and horror. That extent being, calmly and methodically murdering her kids.
If the father can be found in a court of law to have broken a LAW that is on the books, then he should be tried and convicted for the same. If not, then I believe that the guilt, shame and anguish, sadness, and the empty hole that he will have for the rest of his life will suffice.
And Rascal? You called me a wuss! I can't believe that! Why, let's put on the gloves now, c'mon, get 'em up! See if you can clock me! :)-->
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Oakspear
Hey johniam, your posts are annoying and drive me up the wall. How about some of us take you out back and knock the stupid out of you? Clearly you "deserve it". Yeah I guess I could leave GS or not read your posts, but I feel that my only real option is to kick your foot.
Bad idea?
Sounds pretty wacko when I say it like that, doesn't it?
Go back and re-read your "clock her like she deserves" post in the light of someone "clocking" YOU like you deserve.
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oldiesman
I wouldn't have been involved in a group/movement for almost 20 years, had there been widespread female abuse in it. That's preposterous.
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Steve!
om, you've repeatedly demonstrated in the past that you have severe tunnel vision.
And it's also been mentioned, more than once, that due to familial connections, you were much more sheltered than Joe Ordinary Believer.
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oldiesman
Steve, if I'm suffering from Tunnel Vision, then so are you my friend!
What was I "sheltered" from? Perhaps not having to deal with a family who wasn't involved with twi, for years. Since my whole family was involved, it was a blessing. But the "connections" argument doesn't make my experience or opinions any less valid than yours, or anyone elses.
Oh and btw, if you asked those of my family who are still alive, if there was widespread female gender abuse, they'd probably say it's preposterous, like I just have. What nonsense.
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rascal
Yeah, as I undertand it, oldies, some of em understood the unique responsibilities required of one functioning at such a high area of spiritual responsibility....there in lay their value.
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dmiller
Convincing Oldies of the error of his ways, and total lack of thinking -- is equivilant to getting Mike to renounce pfal.
Were either one to happen -- that would be the eighth wonder of the world.
-->
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GarthP2000
Smikeo--err, Oldies,
What would you call the Corp/VPW taught practice of getting a female believer (preferably young and nubile) to 'meet the Man of God's needs', or else depicting the refuser as a cop-out, possessed, and all the other names that went along with it? What would you call the blind and goosestepping closing of ranks around VPW when his abusive actions were proven and verified according to the biblical standard of two or more witnesses? (Yes, Virginia, they were)
The Living Word in a believer's life??
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Oakspear
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Oakspear
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Frankee
Umm Oldiesman? Could I have a private word with you in the pt? I think I may be able to help, if the rest of you don't mind. I just hate to see all of this ugliness going on here. Yes, I put on my asbestos suit , but it doesn't help too much.
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johniam
Uncle Hairy:
quote: It's always wrong for a man to hit a woman. Nobody can drive you up a wall, you have to do that yourself...johniam, I hate to say this, but you sound like a sicko.
It's ALWAYS wrong for a man to hit a woman? I've posted this before, but I'll do it again just for you. In 1996 at the Democratic convention the "right reverend" Hillary Clinton said how proud she was that her husband is the first president who ever said that a man should never hit a woman. Then two years and change later she whacked him in the face with a cell phone knowing he was going to be on TV one hour later. I hate to say this, but you sound like a stooge.
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johniam
Oldies: this actually happened.
woman (to winston Churchill): Why, if you were my husband, I'd put poison in your tea!
Churchill: If you were my wife, I'd drink it!
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rascal
John n oldies, THAT attitude is a shining example of what years of participation in twi develops within one....It ain`t pretty....It ain`t christian, and it certainly ain`t right, not by a long shot.
Come on Frankee, being a christian, doesn`t mean you have to be a wuss, surely your eyes are not so tender that names can offend you to the point of fleeing?
Shoot as far as name calling goes, Jesus had a few choice nasties reserved for guys hurting folks.....
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vickles
guffaw, om we already know that you are not 'all' there.....if you were in twi and was involved it was there right before your face...for a guy I guess, that so believed it really put your shoulders back and head up high to have the man totally in charge, huh, om?
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johniam
Oakspear:
quote: Hey johniam, your posts are annoying and drive me up the wall. How about some of us take you out back and knock the stupid out of you? Clearly you "deserve it". Yeah I guess I could leave GS or not read your posts, but I feel that my only real option is to kick your foot.
Bad idea?
Sounds pretty wacko when I say it like that, doesn't it?
Go back and re-read your "clock her like she deserves" post in the light of someone "clocking" YOU like you deserve.
Actually, I'm glad you brought this up. You've been married. You know that reading posts on a website is quite different than being in the same living space with someone and hearing the tone of their voice. How about this? If a MAN speaks non stop and drives you up a wall deliberately, then that same man deserves to get clocked, too.
This is all an extention of spanking children. It's a matter of degrees; you don't brutalize them, but they have to know that if their behavior gets far enough out of bounds, then there will be consequences. Why should they learn this by getting beat up on the elementary school playground or by getting sent to jail when they can learn it in the "comfort" of their home and family. I learned this in an eye opening way.
I remember four times getting spanked as a child. All 4 times my mom was present. Two of the four, my mom defended me; the other two, she did not. When she did not defend me, I had either mouthed off to her in earshot of my dad or disobeyed her. When she did defend me, my dad had over reacted. Either way, the message was successfully sent to me that if I did not respect authority then there would be consequuences. I'm sure some here believe that children should never be spanked. Glad I don't live in Sweden.
But why, Oak, do you assign this celestial value to women but not to men. We all need to get put in our place; otherwise we could become like LCM. Don't you think he should have gotten clocked at some point in time? Not by a judge's ruling or a BOD decision, but by a fist!
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rascal
and Jesus said, let every man woman and child be clocked as they so deserve.....
and yay ye shall be the judge of when they shall have merrited such treatment, knowing this, that they have earned the wages of their sin.... for the unpardonable foolishness of not knowing when to shut up in your presence....selah
Shoot too bad andrea didn`t have someone like you to smack her around when she needed it n make her straighten up.
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johniam
I challenge any one of you right now to think back about anything that ever scarred you during your life. Was it somebody beating you up, or was it verbal abuse? Sticks and stones can break my bones but names will never hurt me. Yeah, right!
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rascal
So lets utilize our fists instead to get our message across to those danged love ones who have the nerve to irritate us.
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johniam
Hey, Rascal. You feelin' emotional about now? Getting physical is not a strategy, it's a last resort, like spankings, war, bankruptcy, the death penalty, the lake of fire, and many other things. Perhaps you should take a time out.
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rascal
Twi was really good at helping one justify the perpetrating of evil John, and making it seem oh so logical and acceptable.... you have learned well grass hoppa (no offense to our own local dear GH).
p.s. wouldn ya just love to be able to reach through this screen n clock me one to shut me up?? lol
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GrouchoMarxJr
johniam says..."Why should they learn this by getting beat up on the elementary school playground or by getting sent to jail when they can learn it in the "comfort" of their home and family."
OK, I have a theory...I think johniam is totally goofing on us...he's seeing how many buttons he can push by saying these outrageous things! This is his way of having fun...first, he says the most outrageous and stupid thing he can think of, and then waits for our responses! He is probably drinking a cold beer and laughing his foot off as he reads the posts!...Am I right? C'mon fess up...I'm on to you now...nobody could possibly suggest that it's better to beat your child at home to teach him a lesson, than to have them get beat at school to learn the lesson..I think you got carried away with your own sense of humor...C'mon now, fess up and we'll all laugh together...
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Linda Z
johniam, you said:
Are you saying, then, that if a woman verbally annoys a man, his involuntary response is to hit her??? I'd say that's a scary thought, if a man can't control his reactions any better than that. (And I'd say the same of a woman who clobbered her husband with a skillet because he annoyed her.)
What about just walking away until the annoying woman shuts up? And if she never can regain her composure in these situations, if she never shuts up, how about going for counseling and figuring out why? Or, failing that, how about divorcing her?
How can you even consider "clocking her" a viable solution to anything?
So hitting a woman is justified if you "need your space"? Man, I can't believe what I'm reading here.
90%??? You just make this stuff up, don't you? And "so-called" domestic violence cases??? You astound me. You think when a man beats the crap out of a woman, it's just so-called abuse?
I'll grant you that some women don't know when to back off and let things cool down. But that in no way justifies hitting them.
Convenient??? In case you haven't noticed, most men are FAR stronger than most women. It's illegal because if it weren't, there wouldn't be a deterrent that would keep men who feel like you apparently do from killing the women in their lives--because they needed their space.
Good Lord in heaven.
I think you are a man born out of his proper era. If I'm reading you right, you should have lived when women were no more than property... mere chattel to do with as the men would like.
Back to the original subject (before I get "swatted like a fly" for daring to speak up to a man...
I still contend that the father in this case is partly responsible for what happened to his children.
Let's say for the sake of argument, that I had a mentally handicapped adult male child who happened to be a rapist of little girls, and I knew this about him. Then let's say I let him watch over a group of my daughter's young friends who were having a slumber party at our house, while I went off shopping. And let's say he raped several of them.
Yes, in that scenario, my son would be a criminal, but are you trying to tell me I'd share none of the blame?
That woman's husband knew about her mental state. He left their children in her care, with no one else supervising. And you think he shares none of the blame?
You've totally sidetracked this discussion by claiming that to say the husband shared the responsibility is "men bashing" by the way. I happen to like men--a lot. I happen to think most of them are great. I also happen to think the man who fathered those five babies made a huge mistake and is partly to blame for their deaths.
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excathedra
i have not read this thread (i mean it) since i said something about them living on a bus for a while
my thoughts are that there are some things we'll never understand -- especially such heartwrenching things we're not capable of
thank god
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Frankee
Yes, back to the point.
Linda Z. You drew up a scenario here. I will quote you:
To me, in this scenario, you are correct in saying that you as the mother would be guilty for letting this fictitious "adult male rapist child" watch over your teen aged daughters slumber party, and he then therefore went and raped and murdered them all while you were out at Bloomingdales or whatever.
But, this scenario is not valid, because Ms Andrea Yates was not a "known child murderer". She was not known to have had problems with murdering children. She had lived all of her life as a mother without murdering any of them. Who could have guessed it? She was known to have severe mental problems, but not to the extent that completely took EVERYONE INVOLVED by surprise and horror. That extent being, calmly and methodically murdering her kids.
If the father can be found in a court of law to have broken a LAW that is on the books, then he should be tried and convicted for the same. If not, then I believe that the guilt, shame and anguish, sadness, and the empty hole that he will have for the rest of his life will suffice.
And Rascal? You called me a wuss! I can't believe that! Why, let's put on the gloves now, c'mon, get 'em up! See if you can clock me!
:)-->
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