How do you know he HASN'T done acts of "real contrition" privately?
Just what is it about renonucing his ordination(s) that defines contrition?
What will his begging our forgiveness actually accomplish?
I don't think "private contrition" is true contrition. Renouncing his ordination would be one way of acknowledging his betrayal of the so-called "calling" he enjoyed for so many years. Begging our forgiveness, in the most specific terms, would be another form of acknowledgement. As long as he makes that a part of his identity, not merely a phase or a moment of candor, he also acknowledges the value of the lives he harmed. He shows just a little damned respect, something he's always been somewhat short on, actually.
If John called me personally or wrote me an email or paper letter begging my forgiveness for the way he treated me while attempting to throw me out of the 11th Corps.. what would that accomplish? What would it change? I felt he was wrong then, would his saying to me, "Howard, I was wrong, I beg you to forgive me," make him any more or less wrong?
He would be showing you the respect he once denied you. It has nothing to do with his degree of guilt.
Would it do much more than give me the emotional satisfaction of him lowering himself before me?
I don't think so.
That's you, Howard. I don't speak for you, and neither do you for me.
Nor do I think his or anyone's announcement of;
"The ordination I operated under was bogus and made a mockery of God...."
would accomplish anything.
It sure would, whether or not you perceived it that way.
No nothing at all that is substantitive.. Again. Nothing beyond giving one seeking some self satisfaction of his own just that.
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Oh, okay. It's all about me. Right.
I know John Lynn and I'm 100% certain that HE grieved Rochelle's loss of life as I did. I looked into his eyes when he was giving me the boot, I saw as much respect as he'd ever given me (which was substantial). He actually felt that my leaving the in residence WC at that time was what was best for me AND that I would, sans the rigors of the program, blossom and be able to return a few months later as one of the top guys in the 12th WC.
That only tells me that any other "act" of contrition, past, present or future, might amount to that and no more.
I simply felt he was wrong. I fought for my life and my place in the Corps.
He wasn't just wrong, he was living a fundamental lie. In other words, everything he did was wrong, even the things he got right were tainted by the lie he lived and promoted.
Unfortunately my dear friend Rochelle didn't do that. She took her own life. Suicide, by definition is an extreme act of selfishness. They leave the living to suffer and punish us with their loss. For whatever their reason, the act accomplishes the same thing, it punishes us who loved them so.
Rochelle needed a pastor, a man of God, someone to comfort and heal her. That man wasn't there because an imposter stood in his place. That imposter was John Lynn.
John was caught up under TWI, as we all were. (It is quite possible that John Lynn sat at his desk and decided, finally to give the word that "I was gone" from in residence at the same time Rochelle was deciding finally, to kill herself and did it. The two events were simultaneous, she was 1,000 miles away but it was roughtly the same time.) Rochelle and others handled the pressures of it by taking their lives. Perhaps they thought, as I once did, when I sat on the floor of my bedroom with a loaded shotgun trying as Might to put it in my mouth and "end it all".... Perhaps they felt that their life was as ruined as I felt mine was; ruined by my own hand, at my own decisions... irretrievable. How can I live on? How can I continue even one more moment?
This is irrelevant, though tragic. The Way International was a fraud, and John Lynn is (and I think continues to be) a principal of that fraud.
I can't.
You can't what?
One thing we all had in common is that we were all caught up in a web of deceit authored by the enemy of us all. My experience tells me that I was being decieved into believing that ending my life was a viable solution for the pressures of life I was feeling so heavily upon me at the time. I was saved by the thought that I had a daughter who needed my life THEN to help develop her own. To kill myself would have robbed HER of a father. I picked myself up off the floor that day because I could NOT do that to HER.
It's very convenient to blame the devil. It is fortunate your love for your daughter was sufficient to save you.
The one who seeks not but for to steal, kill and destroy won a few rounds. We all handled the pressures we were under in different ways. We were ALL under the "same" pressures. He killed a few of our beloved brothers and sisters. Destroyed a LOT of our dreams; stole even more from our lives. It is HE, the enemy, who should acknowledge the wrongs, apologise with acts of true contrition.
It's very convenient to blame the devil.
As we still, to this day FEEL the anger that demands, "I want to see some REAL contrition from these people." While we demand they renounce this and apologise for that, I beg you. ...
Have we truly moved on?
Of course we've "moved on." Moving on does not require amnesia, nor does it require the suspension of judgement. Moving on does not absolve us of our responsibility for taking care of unfinished business. This is certainly unfinished business for many of us.
While we feel these things are we looking back, looking through a window through time at what was then or are we STILL "in" it, living it now? Are as free from as we think?
What?
I think not.
What?
John Lynn is as clean as the blood of Christ washed him over 2,000 years ago. IF we believe that we are ALL, and WHEN we believe that we are ALL, just as washed and as clean from our sin, ANY and ALL sin; as clean as clean can be, it is then and ONLY then that we CAN understand...
His inner cleanliness does not clean up the mess he left, does it? No, frankly, and sweeping it under the bed makes it worse.
When we understand that we will surely say, "His slate is as clean as MINE. His sins are no dirtier than mine."
Irrelevant, I think, for reasons I've already stated. He's shown himself to be quite adept at sweeping his own past under the rug of absolution theology, but I'm sure he thanks you for the moral support.
IF and when we believe, truly believe what Jesus accomplished for us ALL, we will OFFER forgiveness to "these people" whether they ask for it on their knees or not.
Could be.
Regardless of what we each did or didn't do, we are ALL just as clean as the other.
See, I have a little problem with that.
AND... We won't mock God with statements like this,
Miraculously? There IS NO OTHER WAY to clean one's slate, all of the "real contrition" and apology and renouncing in the world can't clean ANYTHING. As we bite and snap at each other now, whose side are we really representing?
Let me guess. The devil's? You're sanctimony is nauseating.
I would suggest that if you cannot forgive THEM, you are not free.
We don't wrestle against flesh and blood ... John A. Lynn is flesh and blood.
People just have a hard time forgiving those who really, really hurt them ... speaking from experience, my most "hard to forgive" TWIt is Tom Jenkinson, as I have made abundantly clear on other threads ... I am not plagued in dreams and thoughts of his mistreatment of me any more, but that took many years. It was a great deliverance when I COULD go to sleep, knowing that I would not dream that I was trapped at Gunnison again. I know there were others, at least one of whom is still in TWI, that had the same horrible nightmares. What it took for me was realizing how much damage and hurt the NOT forgiving was doing to me, and just realizing that life has its arsewholes. Sadly, lots of those folks became inflated with their own self-importance and harmed a lot of people in the name of God. They will certainly have to answer for that.
Don't really know what point I'm making ... just rambling and thinking, I guess. It's important no matter who in TWI "screwed you" (whether literally or only with words and hurtful things) that you don't let it or their memory eat you alive on the inside. We're all too precious to God and to the people who love us on this earth to let that person continue to have power over us. It doesn't excuse them or their actions ... they'll answer to God for that ... but forgiving does give YOU the power to move on to a freer life.
I agree with you. I hardly ever think of JAL, unless I run across something I associate with him, like Rochelle's suicide.
In all honesty, if the CES pool ever wanted to be filled to overflowing, well - wait, that didn't come out right - if they wanted to succeed, they'll have a tougher time without JAL's personality. His success was built upon his personality (not his integrity or intelligence necessarily), and that personality is an asset (and liability to be sure) to any organization he joins. I acknowledge his "longsuits."
TWI was a cult of personality, or more accurately, a multi-level conglomeration of personality cults, each cluster in the hierarchy feeding the clusters above. At the top, Wierwille, whose mania inspired a legion of leaders. Near the top, the irrepressably real you-know-who stood up, to be counted. And that was the problem. Instead of standing, he should have walked, and sold real estate or something, where he couldn't do any harm.
The doggie show was played at Emporia during 84-85 when the 15th & 13th corps were in-rez. I was there. Vic was on campus and spent a week or so reading through the book Bedside Manners to the corps. Us college folks only got invited to the very last session, which (oh, joy) included that disgusting video.
That was definately the last time he showed it because he died that spring in 85.
WOW............this bestiality/porno video was STILL being shown.
AMAZING......veepee showed this flick ALL THOSE YEARS.....and prior to his death.
NO WONDER.....his gravestone is marked with, "I wish I were the man I knew to be"
Don't really know what point I'm making ... just rambling and thinking, I guess. It's important no matter who in TWI "screwed you" (whether literally or only with words and hurtful things) that you don't let it or their memory eat you alive on the inside. We're all too precious to God and to the people who love us on this earth to let that person continue to have power over us. It doesn't excuse them or their actions ... they'll answer to God for that ... but forgiving does give YOU the power to move on to a freer life.
TF
The easiest way I know "how to" forgive people who have hurt and wronged you, is to bear in mind "what God forgave *you* for."
The easiest way I know "how to" forgive people who have hurt and wronged you, is to bear in mind "what God forgave *you* for."
Speaking in general. I've always noticed that former way leaders are always so into the "forgive and forget" mentaility most likely because they fear reprisals from people they have mistreated. I recall one former leader who used to go around talking to people going "hey I was just doing what I was told, I'm with you , I was misled also". No that is a lie and they know it but they preach "forgive and forget" to try to get the account all squared up so THEY don't have to worry about things. A variation on this concept is the "just get over it" approach wherein they try to bully people into stop making references to very real problems in TWI. These people are just very eager for you to forget how badly leaders treated people just so they can rest easy. But trying to talk someone into "forgiving" before they are ready is selfish which of course is a hallmark of the Way leader.
I say let God do the forgiving , he is much better at it than any human. Besides, I'll be the one to decide when its time to forgive someone. Anyone who tries to negotiate forgiveness from someone else is clearly sufferring from a guilty conscience. Don't let an arrogant way leader (past or present) attempt to beguile you of your own healing timeline which is something that cannot be fast-tracked - especially to satisfy the needs of a a guilty person who seems so desperate for it. Forgive ONLY when the time is right else it will not be genuine and very little will have been accomplished. Lots of way leaders and those who perpetrated wrong on their fellow believers are very anxious to be fogiven (at least those who have a working conscience do) because they are acutely aware of how badly they treated others. Of course some , such as LCM, will never admit to doing anything wrong, ever and will always seek to blame their own misfotune on others.
Absoltuely the choice is mine. Nothing in those verses says that there isn't a process of healing before something like that can take place. Seems to me that the wrongdoers are always the ones who preach "forgive and forget" as if it MUST be given upon demand.
Do it when the time is right. Besides I notice you so wilingly forgive VPW yet you won't forgive anyone who questions his unethical, deceptive, and abusive behavior. Only those with a guilty conscience are desperate for forgiveness. So OM why are you so desperate for forgiveness ?
I notice that during the MArk And Avoid era how those Way leaders didn't forgive followers for the alleged offenses they accomplished against the "one , true ministry". Leaders gave many hardworking, dedicated people the boot and for what ? Seems to me that even if these followers had done something so heinous and wrong that the "christian thing to do" would have been to forgive them but no, Way leaders would not. What do you have to say about that ? You apply a different standard to the might Way leaders and your hero VPW but judge the rank and file differently. Actually those so called "men and women of god" are treacherous and vile since in many cases, concocted stories to justify kicking people out of TWI. I recall TWI teaching that the most viscious devlil spirits could be found in religious organizations which allege to have unique access to God - sounds to me like TWI is a good fit. But back to the question ... Why are Way leaders exempt from the requirement to forgive people ? Why couldn't they forgive people that they left out in the cold ?
Where is the "christian behavior" in that ? Oh right. Way leaders are special. They talk the talk but aren't responsible for to walking the walk
Also OM there are indeed bible verses about deceptive leaders and pharisees that apply really well to VPW but I don't see you posting those verses.
Maybe you would like for me to do that ? You post only those which are convenient to your point of view. You behave as if you are christian which I don't think you are. You are a VPW loyalist for sure and in my experience the more dedicated one is to preserving the VPW legacy, the least likely he or she is to exhibit the qualities commonly associated with christianity.
Lastly Mr. Biblical Scholar, Take a gander at Mathew 5:20-
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Oh so looks like the Pharisees and "teachers of the law" won't be getting into the kingdom of heaven so looks to me like those who propound legalism
and who would try to use their PFAL status as some lame "get into heaven free" pass will be left out in the cold. TWI, VPW, has never helped the surrounding community, never fed the homeless, never accomplished a true mission, never built a village, ministered to the sick, never setup a shelter.
Thats christianity in action. Sitting around talking about devil spriits and homos isn't it.
Oldiesman finds it easier to forgive wickedness than the consequential unforgiveness it often engenders. When that's the state of grace in our day and in our time, it's no wonder some people, in the direst of personal circumstances, with nobody to lean on but The Way International, just killed themselves. The grace of God becomes the aquittal-by-technicality of the most rotten, and the condemnation of the most wronged. How nice.
I notice that during the MArk And Avoid era how those Way leaders didn't forgive followers for the alleged offenses they accomplished against the "one , true ministry". Leaders gave many hardworking, dedicated people the boot and for what ? Seems to me that even if these followers had done something so heinous and wrong that the "christian thing to do" would have been to forgive them but no, Way leaders would not. What do you have to say about that ? ...
The same verses I quoted above apply to you, me, twi, and anyone else.
When someone fails to do the Word, they fail, be it you, me, twi, or anyone else.
Also OM there are indeed bible verses about deceptive leaders and pharisees that apply really well to VPW but I don't see you posting those verses. Maybe you would like for me to do that ? You post only those which are convenient to your point of view.
Feel free to post what you think applies to VP Wierwille, and I will read it. Can't promise you I will agree with any or all of your viewpoints though.
You behave as if you are christian which I don't think you are.
My behavior doesn't always live up to the mark, for sure.
But you know full well that whether one is a Christian or not, is not based upon one's behavior.
Christianity is all about what God wrought in Christ Jesus.
Christianity is Christ dying on the cross for your sins and mine, and folks who believe in that perfect sacrifice, confessing Christ as Lord and believing that God raised him from the dead.
Christianity is about God and Christ and their good works...not humans' works.
It is loathesome and pathetic when one of us accuses another brother or sister in Christ of not being a Christian, because of varying viewpoints, or lack of "good works".
We know better than that, because of God's grace and Christ's perfect sacrifice.
"It's not by works of righteousness, but by His grace alone".
I never knew about the suicides in TWI till WayDale. I suspect that many, many other people in TWI never did either.
I *think* my ex talked about a suicide or two when we were married, but I can't really remember. However, his mindset about people who committed suicide was that they were so fooled by the adversary and so "out to lunch" that the world was better off without them. :(
In 1986 I was in a meeting in which LCM reported what he said was the third suicide ever in the way corps. I can't remember much of what was said, but he quickly said that there were hundreds of suicides in the denominations. Oh, that's great! TWI's better than those other places because we've had less suicides.
If one in TWI knows they are ill and need medical attention but doesn't get it because of twi teaching on healing, believing and weakness, is that suicide?
TWI probably had homOcidal teachers, but I think in this case your were speaking of homIcidal. hee, thought it was a fun typo and couldn't resist pointing at it.
yeah but scriptures tell us how to identify Christians....FRUIT!
Now I understand where our confusion lies.
You are confusing fruit with works, fella.
The fruit is a natural by product of being a Christian ...not something we strive to achieve.
Hey rascal - I'm sorry but I think you're wrong here.
"Fruit" is not the evidence of the Christian - it is the evidence of the HEALTH of a Christian. An apple tree is an apple tree even if it has no fruit - but it is avery unhealthy tree if it bears no fruit - and is in need of some severe pruning and care.
"By their fruits ys shall know them." well that's easy - apples =apple tree, peaches = peach tree fruit of the spirit = spiritual person
And to be fair - whatever you know or don't know about Om unless you ahve spent time with him in person, you probably dont' know him well enough to speak about any fruit in his life.
Snort, doojable, I don`t believe that I have indicated in any way that I presume to know oldies man or his fruit....I only know him by what he posts here.....
We disagree purely on ideaology issues...outside of that I know we share in common an outstanding taste in motorcycles :)
So you think that fruit is optional? Kind of makes sense the way you present it.....however what about a bad tree bringing forth good fruit or a good tree bringing forth bad fruit......Personally, I`d say that the legacy of twi counts as some mighty putrid fruit.....
Why the are we told to identfy one another by these? I can only figure that must be why it takes more than what`s on the surface or the lable we plaster on ourselves to be identified as a genuine Christian..........
Why are we told in galatians that people who live by the flesh ....and the behaviors listed were those that our leaders indulged in....have NO inheritance in the kingdome of God?
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satori001
['HCW' date=Dec 26 2005, 01:58 AM' post='204892]
I'm not running to the defense of JAL, but....
How do you know he HASN'T done acts of "real contrition" privately?
Just what is it about renonucing his ordination(s) that defines contrition?
What will his begging our forgiveness actually accomplish?
I don't think "private contrition" is true contrition. Renouncing his ordination would be one way of acknowledging his betrayal of the so-called "calling" he enjoyed for so many years. Begging our forgiveness, in the most specific terms, would be another form of acknowledgement. As long as he makes that a part of his identity, not merely a phase or a moment of candor, he also acknowledges the value of the lives he harmed. He shows just a little damned respect, something he's always been somewhat short on, actually.
If John called me personally or wrote me an email or paper letter begging my forgiveness for the way he treated me while attempting to throw me out of the 11th Corps.. what would that accomplish? What would it change? I felt he was wrong then, would his saying to me, "Howard, I was wrong, I beg you to forgive me," make him any more or less wrong?
He would be showing you the respect he once denied you. It has nothing to do with his degree of guilt.
Would it do much more than give me the emotional satisfaction of him lowering himself before me?
I don't think so.
That's you, Howard. I don't speak for you, and neither do you for me.
Nor do I think his or anyone's announcement of;
"The ordination I operated under was bogus and made a mockery of God...."
would accomplish anything.
It sure would, whether or not you perceived it that way.
No nothing at all that is substantitive.. Again. Nothing beyond giving one seeking some self satisfaction of his own just that.
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Oh, okay. It's all about me. Right.
I know John Lynn and I'm 100% certain that HE grieved Rochelle's loss of life as I did. I looked into his eyes when he was giving me the boot, I saw as much respect as he'd ever given me (which was substantial). He actually felt that my leaving the in residence WC at that time was what was best for me AND that I would, sans the rigors of the program, blossom and be able to return a few months later as one of the top guys in the 12th WC.
That only tells me that any other "act" of contrition, past, present or future, might amount to that and no more.
I simply felt he was wrong. I fought for my life and my place in the Corps.
He wasn't just wrong, he was living a fundamental lie. In other words, everything he did was wrong, even the things he got right were tainted by the lie he lived and promoted.
Unfortunately my dear friend Rochelle didn't do that. She took her own life. Suicide, by definition is an extreme act of selfishness. They leave the living to suffer and punish us with their loss. For whatever their reason, the act accomplishes the same thing, it punishes us who loved them so.
Rochelle needed a pastor, a man of God, someone to comfort and heal her. That man wasn't there because an imposter stood in his place. That imposter was John Lynn.
John was caught up under TWI, as we all were. (It is quite possible that John Lynn sat at his desk and decided, finally to give the word that "I was gone" from in residence at the same time Rochelle was deciding finally, to kill herself and did it. The two events were simultaneous, she was 1,000 miles away but it was roughtly the same time.) Rochelle and others handled the pressures of it by taking their lives. Perhaps they thought, as I once did, when I sat on the floor of my bedroom with a loaded shotgun trying as Might to put it in my mouth and "end it all".... Perhaps they felt that their life was as ruined as I felt mine was; ruined by my own hand, at my own decisions... irretrievable. How can I live on? How can I continue even one more moment?
This is irrelevant, though tragic. The Way International was a fraud, and John Lynn is (and I think continues to be) a principal of that fraud.
I can't.
You can't what?
One thing we all had in common is that we were all caught up in a web of deceit authored by the enemy of us all. My experience tells me that I was being decieved into believing that ending my life was a viable solution for the pressures of life I was feeling so heavily upon me at the time. I was saved by the thought that I had a daughter who needed my life THEN to help develop her own. To kill myself would have robbed HER of a father. I picked myself up off the floor that day because I could NOT do that to HER.
It's very convenient to blame the devil. It is fortunate your love for your daughter was sufficient to save you.
The one who seeks not but for to steal, kill and destroy won a few rounds. We all handled the pressures we were under in different ways. We were ALL under the "same" pressures. He killed a few of our beloved brothers and sisters. Destroyed a LOT of our dreams; stole even more from our lives. It is HE, the enemy, who should acknowledge the wrongs, apologise with acts of true contrition.
It's very convenient to blame the devil.
As we still, to this day FEEL the anger that demands, "I want to see some REAL contrition from these people." While we demand they renounce this and apologise for that, I beg you. ...
Have we truly moved on?
Of course we've "moved on." Moving on does not require amnesia, nor does it require the suspension of judgement. Moving on does not absolve us of our responsibility for taking care of unfinished business. This is certainly unfinished business for many of us.
While we feel these things are we looking back, looking through a window through time at what was then or are we STILL "in" it, living it now? Are as free from as we think?
What?
I think not.
What?
John Lynn is as clean as the blood of Christ washed him over 2,000 years ago. IF we believe that we are ALL, and WHEN we believe that we are ALL, just as washed and as clean from our sin, ANY and ALL sin; as clean as clean can be, it is then and ONLY then that we CAN understand...
His inner cleanliness does not clean up the mess he left, does it? No, frankly, and sweeping it under the bed makes it worse.
When we understand that we will surely say, "His slate is as clean as MINE. His sins are no dirtier than mine."
Irrelevant, I think, for reasons I've already stated. He's shown himself to be quite adept at sweeping his own past under the rug of absolution theology, but I'm sure he thanks you for the moral support.
IF and when we believe, truly believe what Jesus accomplished for us ALL, we will OFFER forgiveness to "these people" whether they ask for it on their knees or not.
Could be.
Regardless of what we each did or didn't do, we are ALL just as clean as the other.
See, I have a little problem with that.
AND... We won't mock God with statements like this,
Miraculously? There IS NO OTHER WAY to clean one's slate, all of the "real contrition" and apology and renouncing in the world can't clean ANYTHING. As we bite and snap at each other now, whose side are we really representing?
Let me guess. The devil's? You're sanctimony is nauseating.
I would suggest that if you cannot forgive THEM, you are not free.
I speak unto you a more excellent way.
If you say so.
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ToadFriend
We don't wrestle against flesh and blood ... John A. Lynn is flesh and blood.
People just have a hard time forgiving those who really, really hurt them ... speaking from experience, my most "hard to forgive" TWIt is Tom Jenkinson, as I have made abundantly clear on other threads ... I am not plagued in dreams and thoughts of his mistreatment of me any more, but that took many years. It was a great deliverance when I COULD go to sleep, knowing that I would not dream that I was trapped at Gunnison again. I know there were others, at least one of whom is still in TWI, that had the same horrible nightmares. What it took for me was realizing how much damage and hurt the NOT forgiving was doing to me, and just realizing that life has its arsewholes. Sadly, lots of those folks became inflated with their own self-importance and harmed a lot of people in the name of God. They will certainly have to answer for that.
Don't really know what point I'm making ... just rambling and thinking, I guess. It's important no matter who in TWI "screwed you" (whether literally or only with words and hurtful things) that you don't let it or their memory eat you alive on the inside. We're all too precious to God and to the people who love us on this earth to let that person continue to have power over us. It doesn't excuse them or their actions ... they'll answer to God for that ... but forgiving does give YOU the power to move on to a freer life.
TF
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satori001
TF,
I agree with you. I hardly ever think of JAL, unless I run across something I associate with him, like Rochelle's suicide.
In all honesty, if the CES pool ever wanted to be filled to overflowing, well - wait, that didn't come out right - if they wanted to succeed, they'll have a tougher time without JAL's personality. His success was built upon his personality (not his integrity or intelligence necessarily), and that personality is an asset (and liability to be sure) to any organization he joins. I acknowledge his "longsuits."
TWI was a cult of personality, or more accurately, a multi-level conglomeration of personality cults, each cluster in the hierarchy feeding the clusters above. At the top, Wierwille, whose mania inspired a legion of leaders. Near the top, the irrepressably real you-know-who stood up, to be counted. And that was the problem. Instead of standing, he should have walked, and sold real estate or something, where he couldn't do any harm.
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skyrider
WOW............this bestiality/porno video was STILL being shown.
AMAZING......veepee showed this flick ALL THOSE YEARS.....and prior to his death.
NO WONDER.....his gravestone is marked with, "I wish I were the man I knew to be"
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oldiesman
The easiest way I know "how to" forgive people who have hurt and wronged you, is to bear in mind "what God forgave *you* for."
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diazbro
Speaking in general. I've always noticed that former way leaders are always so into the "forgive and forget" mentaility most likely because they fear reprisals from people they have mistreated. I recall one former leader who used to go around talking to people going "hey I was just doing what I was told, I'm with you , I was misled also". No that is a lie and they know it but they preach "forgive and forget" to try to get the account all squared up so THEY don't have to worry about things. A variation on this concept is the "just get over it" approach wherein they try to bully people into stop making references to very real problems in TWI. These people are just very eager for you to forget how badly leaders treated people just so they can rest easy. But trying to talk someone into "forgiving" before they are ready is selfish which of course is a hallmark of the Way leader.
I say let God do the forgiving , he is much better at it than any human. Besides, I'll be the one to decide when its time to forgive someone. Anyone who tries to negotiate forgiveness from someone else is clearly sufferring from a guilty conscience. Don't let an arrogant way leader (past or present) attempt to beguile you of your own healing timeline which is something that cannot be fast-tracked - especially to satisfy the needs of a a guilty person who seems so desperate for it. Forgive ONLY when the time is right else it will not be genuine and very little will have been accomplished. Lots of way leaders and those who perpetrated wrong on their fellow believers are very anxious to be fogiven (at least those who have a working conscience do) because they are acutely aware of how badly they treated others. Of course some , such as LCM, will never admit to doing anything wrong, ever and will always seek to blame their own misfotune on others.
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oldiesman
Diazbro says:
The Word of God says:The Choice Is Yours ...
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diazbro
Absoltuely the choice is mine. Nothing in those verses says that there isn't a process of healing before something like that can take place. Seems to me that the wrongdoers are always the ones who preach "forgive and forget" as if it MUST be given upon demand.
Do it when the time is right. Besides I notice you so wilingly forgive VPW yet you won't forgive anyone who questions his unethical, deceptive, and abusive behavior. Only those with a guilty conscience are desperate for forgiveness. So OM why are you so desperate for forgiveness ?
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oldiesman
Diazbro says:
The Word of God says:Who Is Telling The Truth?
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diazbro
I notice that during the MArk And Avoid era how those Way leaders didn't forgive followers for the alleged offenses they accomplished against the "one , true ministry". Leaders gave many hardworking, dedicated people the boot and for what ? Seems to me that even if these followers had done something so heinous and wrong that the "christian thing to do" would have been to forgive them but no, Way leaders would not. What do you have to say about that ? You apply a different standard to the might Way leaders and your hero VPW but judge the rank and file differently. Actually those so called "men and women of god" are treacherous and vile since in many cases, concocted stories to justify kicking people out of TWI. I recall TWI teaching that the most viscious devlil spirits could be found in religious organizations which allege to have unique access to God - sounds to me like TWI is a good fit. But back to the question ... Why are Way leaders exempt from the requirement to forgive people ? Why couldn't they forgive people that they left out in the cold ?
Where is the "christian behavior" in that ? Oh right. Way leaders are special. They talk the talk but aren't responsible for to walking the walk
Also OM there are indeed bible verses about deceptive leaders and pharisees that apply really well to VPW but I don't see you posting those verses.
Maybe you would like for me to do that ? You post only those which are convenient to your point of view. You behave as if you are christian which I don't think you are. You are a VPW loyalist for sure and in my experience the more dedicated one is to preserving the VPW legacy, the least likely he or she is to exhibit the qualities commonly associated with christianity.
Lastly Mr. Biblical Scholar, Take a gander at Mathew 5:20-
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Oh so looks like the Pharisees and "teachers of the law" won't be getting into the kingdom of heaven so looks to me like those who propound legalism
and who would try to use their PFAL status as some lame "get into heaven free" pass will be left out in the cold. TWI, VPW, has never helped the surrounding community, never fed the homeless, never accomplished a true mission, never built a village, ministered to the sick, never setup a shelter.
Thats christianity in action. Sitting around talking about devil spriits and homos isn't it.
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satori001
Oldiesman finds it easier to forgive wickedness than the consequential unforgiveness it often engenders. When that's the state of grace in our day and in our time, it's no wonder some people, in the direst of personal circumstances, with nobody to lean on but The Way International, just killed themselves. The grace of God becomes the aquittal-by-technicality of the most rotten, and the condemnation of the most wronged. How nice.
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excathedra
is there a picture of a dog on that tombstone ?
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oldiesman
The same verses I quoted above apply to you, me, twi, and anyone else.
When someone fails to do the Word, they fail, be it you, me, twi, or anyone else.
Feel free to post what you think applies to VP Wierwille, and I will read it. Can't promise you I will agree with any or all of your viewpoints though.My behavior doesn't always live up to the mark, for sure.
But you know full well that whether one is a Christian or not, is not based upon one's behavior.
Christianity is all about what God wrought in Christ Jesus.
Christianity is Christ dying on the cross for your sins and mine, and folks who believe in that perfect sacrifice, confessing Christ as Lord and believing that God raised him from the dead.
Christianity is about God and Christ and their good works...not humans' works.
It is loathesome and pathetic when one of us accuses another brother or sister in Christ of not being a Christian, because of varying viewpoints, or lack of "good works".
We know better than that, because of God's grace and Christ's perfect sacrifice.
"It's not by works of righteousness, but by His grace alone".
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rascal
yeah but scriptures tell us how to identify Christians....FRUIT!
Now I understand where our confusion lies.
You are confusing fruit with works, fella.
The fruit is a natural by product of being a Christian ...not something we strive to achieve.
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Belle
I never knew about the suicides in TWI till WayDale. I suspect that many, many other people in TWI never did either.
I *think* my ex talked about a suicide or two when we were married, but I can't really remember. However, his mindset about people who committed suicide was that they were so fooled by the adversary and so "out to lunch" that the world was better off without them. :(
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johniam
In 1986 I was in a meeting in which LCM reported what he said was the third suicide ever in the way corps. I can't remember much of what was said, but he quickly said that there were hundreds of suicides in the denominations. Oh, that's great! TWI's better than those other places because we've had less suicides.
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washingtonweather
nor does it restore the dignity and hope which those desparate souls lost
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Shellon
If one in TWI knows they are ill and need medical attention but doesn't get it because of twi teaching on healing, believing and weakness, is that suicide?
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washingtonweather
no - Shell I think that would be closer to homocidal teachings by the teachers
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HAPe4me
TWI probably had homOcidal teachers, but I think in this case your were speaking of homIcidal. hee, thought it was a fun typo and couldn't resist pointing at it.
~HAP
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Shellon
LOL Hap, I didn't notice that. hee
WW........I agree that both are true, assisted suicide and homicide assistance.
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doojable
Hey rascal - I'm sorry but I think you're wrong here.
"Fruit" is not the evidence of the Christian - it is the evidence of the HEALTH of a Christian. An apple tree is an apple tree even if it has no fruit - but it is avery unhealthy tree if it bears no fruit - and is in need of some severe pruning and care.
"By their fruits ys shall know them." well that's easy - apples =apple tree, peaches = peach tree fruit of the spirit = spiritual person
And to be fair - whatever you know or don't know about Om unless you ahve spent time with him in person, you probably dont' know him well enough to speak about any fruit in his life.
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washingtonweather
oops
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rascal
Snort, doojable, I don`t believe that I have indicated in any way that I presume to know oldies man or his fruit....I only know him by what he posts here.....
We disagree purely on ideaology issues...outside of that I know we share in common an outstanding taste in motorcycles :)
So you think that fruit is optional? Kind of makes sense the way you present it.....however what about a bad tree bringing forth good fruit or a good tree bringing forth bad fruit......Personally, I`d say that the legacy of twi counts as some mighty putrid fruit.....
Why the are we told to identfy one another by these? I can only figure that must be why it takes more than what`s on the surface or the lable we plaster on ourselves to be identified as a genuine Christian..........
Why are we told in galatians that people who live by the flesh ....and the behaviors listed were those that our leaders indulged in....have NO inheritance in the kingdome of God?
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