I have a post on that by Research Geek from many years ago on Pikes Peak and Dr's doctorate.
Pikes Peak
For me he did earn that degree, and I might remind you of Research Geek's post here on how he investigated that deal by going to Pikes Peak and checking out the record. He's one of the very few GreaseSpotters that seem to have done this kind of thing, not shoot from the hip, but investigate objectively. Others here will dig for dirt, but miss the gold.
originally posted by Research Geek October 04, 2002:
I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters at Princeton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary.
I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class. My wife and I searched for the place and found it when we visited Colorado. We drove up to it on a hill and were looking at the building when the owner of the house came out. We said hi and explained what we were doing and he invited us in and showed us around.
The owner said that indeed the Seminary operated out of that building and even showed us a picture of the place years ago taken from across the valley. It was in a frame and mounted on the wall. The owner said that it was a condition of the house purchase agreement that the picture remain with the building. We took photos and showed them to vpw. He remembered the picture on the wall.
The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary utilized an "experimental" kind of education method. Because of that, its coursework was not accepted by many other institutions.
vpw did put in the time and did get a doctors degree.
But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in and get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize.
I think that he kept the title obstinately, in spite of the criticism because he had done the work and put in the time. Unfortunately for him, he chose the wrong institution for the effort.
So it was not a lie. He believed that he had earned the title. Perhaps his decision to go was unwise. I think that if I was going to put in the effort, I would have chosen an institution with better credentials.
I might distance myself from a few of the opinions expressed at the end of the above post, but the bulk of it is quite noteworthy. I urge the objectors to dig deeper than just listening to what's in the wind, and not base crucial life decisions on the lies of people who didn't bother to get informed.
Dr not only earned his doctorate, but he performed far beyond what any PhD has ever done for anyone. He brought us God's light like it hasn't been seen in 2000 years. In my book that earns him credit far beyond a doctorate.
I’ve done all the things that Research Geek has done. I may have even posted up the Zillow link to the property.
Two PhD students rented rooms in a large house for many years. After they graduated with normal degrees they started a correspondence school named Pikes Peak Seminary. This was not an accredited school like where the renters studied.
There were no classes. No language studies. It was all a series of written essays sent in, along with a thesis paper and presentation in person. The written papers were on homiletics. The thesis paper and presentation were on homiletics. This is all in Mrs VPW book.
The “time” VP put in was minimal. Assembling papers from his multi sources was easy. I would not be one iota surprised to find out Rhoda did all those papers by dictation like she wrote down all the stuff for the collaterals. They all drove out for the presentation and graduation.
There was no masters degree audit done before admitting VP to a doctorate program. Just send in the $$$ from the congregation to pay for it and off you go.
Far beyond a PhD - only if your mind is far beyond reality.
Sounds like you never saw the black and white 1963 version of Session One. He was not polished and not nearly as together as he is in the 1968 color film.
On a new set in a new experience. Yes I’ve seen clips. This means nothing.
vpw did get a masters at Princeton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary.
He went to Princeton Theological Seminary, not "Princeton". Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. It should be easy enough to verify by doing an alumni search, something that doesn't really interest me. He spent a brief time at Pikes Peak Seminary ( a building that is currently functioning as a B&B). Where can I find his dissertation? And that makes him a "Dr."? How?
It was always that way it didn't happen after wierwille...the place handed out mail in doctorates in a state that allows religious accreditation but the accreditation is worthless as stated by the state of Colorado. Wierwille was a fake.
Read the green text above from Research Geek again. You missed it where he said the degree was genuine.
I'll tell you why you think VPW was a fake man of God. It's because your preconceived notion was that a man of God has to be a goodie goodie, a holy man, a Jesus like person who had it all together in every category.
Those who thought he was a tradition respected holy man were sorely disappointed, eventually. Keeping eyes on VPW and not on the Word that he taught caused a lot of bitter disillusionment.
It was before I was in the Word for a full year that I saw and heard him distance himself from the goodie goodie holy man image at the end of Rock'72. He put in the class and in his writings the fact that he was weak, and sinned. First John chapter one tells us he had sin, but the holy man seekers glossed over that too.
It you were expecting to see a copy of Jesus in VPW, then you are most disappointed now. I suggest you start all over and seek someone who will, again, teach you the Word.
Read the green text above from Research Geek again. You missed it where he said the degree was genuine.
I'll tell you why you think VPW was a fake man of God. It's because your preconceived notion was that a man of God has to be a goodie goodie, a holy man, a Jesus like person who had it all together in every category.
Those who thought he was a tradition respected holy man were sorely disappointed, eventually. Keeping eyes on VPW and not on the Word that he taught caused a lot of bitter disillusionment.
It was before I was in the Word for a full year that I saw and heard him distance himself from the goodie goodie holy man image at the end of Rock'72. He put in the class and in his writings the fact that he was weak, and sinned. First John chapter one tells us he had sin, but the holy man seekers glossed over that too.
It you were expecting to see a copy of Jesus in VPW, then you are most disappointed now. I suggest you start all over and seek someone who will, again, teach you the Word.
No VPW was a fake man of God because when you do as Jesus Christ instructs and don’t listen to a man’s hype but look at the wake behind their boat all you see is faux. And destruction in the wake.
When I was in the Corpse I looked up to the extreme stuff. Now I don’t.
I don’t need to start all over again. My story is complete and makes sense. There a so many more people in todays time who “teach me the Word” than there were in TWI. There used to be VP taught me the Word, and later “the teacher” was replaced by “the ministry”. That was delusional, because “the ministry” is not “the body of Christ” but a fake tree farming organization that gives you a fake tree of life and an absent dashboard Jesus.
Now I can accept the Word as taught by Christian teachers all over the world in many different organizations working towards many different individual goals.
I am no longer isolated and controlled and as such I am no longer of interest to “the ministry”. They want young compliant tithers wanting to save the world.
That is called plagiarism where?
It is in the godless book market, and in godless academia.
Those two kingdoms are ruled by the devil. They do not honor proper recognition of originality stemming from God. They don't want to honor God's existence, nor His ability to speak a human language
If the godless world is where you want to crystalize your definitions of originality, intellectual property, copyrights, and plagiarism then have at it. I will not join you in that descent to corruption.
Okay, let's look at it from a spiritual perspective. On one hand you have an upright man of God, B.G. Leonard. On the other hand you have a lying, abusive, alcoholic rake. Now, God says he's a just and loving God.
Would a just and loving God take the bread out of an upright man of God's mouth and give it to a lying, abusive, alcoholic rake? How is that just? How is that loving?
Is the spiritual realm so limited that God couldn't give Saint Vic a whole new revelation and instead had to have one of his kids steal from the other?
You mean God is so limited he couldn't find another way for the people in Rye to hear Leonard's class?
Okay, let's look at it from a spiritual perspective. On one hand you have an upright man of God, B.G. Leonard. On the other hand you have a lying, abusive, alcoholic rake. Now, God says he's a just and loving God.
Would a just and loving God take the bread out of an upright man of God's mouth and give it to a lying, abusive, alcoholic rake?
Is the spiritual realm so limited that God couldn't give Saint Vic a whole new revelation and instead had to have one of his kids steal from the other?
You mean God is so limited he couldn't find another way for the people in Rye to hear Leonard's class?
It all makes sense that judgement starts at the House of God
No VPW was a fake man of God because when you do as Jesus Christ instructs and don’t listen to a man’s hype but look at the wake behind their boat all you see is faux. And destruction in the wake.
When I was in the Corpse I looked up to the extreme stuff. Now I don’t.
I don’t need to start all over again. My story is complete and makes sense. There a so many more people in todays time who “teach me the Word” than there were in TWI. There used to be VP taught me the Word, and later “the teacher” was replaced by “the ministry”. That was delusional, because “the ministry” is not “the body of Christ” but a fake tree farming organization that gives you a fake tree of life and an absent dashboard Jesus.
Now I can accept the Word as taught by Christian teachers all over the world in many different organizations working towards many different individual goals.
I am no longer isolated and controlled and as such I am no longer of interest to “the ministry”. They want young compliant tithers wanting to save the world.
I can agree and sympathize with much of your post here about keeping your distance from TWI-4, and from your past with TWI-3, -2?, -1?
But the opening, about looking at the boat wake model I strongly disagree.
"No VPW was a fake man of God because when you do as Jesus Christ instructs and don’t listen to a man’s hype but look at the wake behind their boat all you see is faux. And destruction in the wake. "
Let's compare how you and I look at the boatwake of the PFAL film&collaterals since 1968. I do not mean to look at the boatwake of VPW, because that is no loner available to view first hand.The film&collaterals wake is a lot more visible.
Let’s compare how we sample opinions and attitudes of grads.
I see a massive number of massively blessed for eternity people. They are popping up more and more via the Internet, and in lots of ways.
You obviously see how eagerly I seek out and attempt rich fellowship and correspondence with antiPFAL grads, such as yourselves here at GSC. You see how I cross the boundaries of pro versus anti in grads’ attitudes towards film&collaterals. I cross these barriers all the time, and unceasingly since 1986.
BUT do you see how eagerly I seek out and attempt rich fellowship and correspondence with proPFAL grads ???No you don’t because I don’t do that here.
What befell TWI-2 and TWI-3 has now befallen you folks: insularity.
I don’t mean absolute insularity, but insularity relative to the major schism in the grad population: proPFAL versus antiPFAL.
I am able to find common ground here and make some civil conversation that can lead to progress for the grad population.Well, I try to do the same thing with proPFAL grads everywhere, on the net and locally.
None of them, hardly, are as intense on the special*collaterals as I am, but they like them in varying degrees.I run into a different set of resistances to my message with them.It is challenging for me there, sometimes, than it is for me here.
There are a couple of extreme collateral fans like me scattered about, but we are aging and dying off pretty fast. Bill Winegarner was a proPFAL fan just a hair less intense than me. In his last year on earth, 2022, he self-published a beautifully hard bound Transcript of PFAL’68, the film class. He had made it himself or with friends.He and I worked a little on fixing an earlier flawed version around 2001.
I have made it my business to stay in contact with all my grad contacts since 1971. I refuse to recognize the walls of insularity I saw being erected QUICKLY after the POP, snapping into a crystalized sub-cult mode. Further snapping, some of it good, happened in the decades after 1986, but the big ones happened then.
I cross the walls the best I can, and I am learning to do it better, and the walls the moderately proPFAL grads threw up in the late 80s have eroded and gates installed and some leveled.
You folks probably spend very few hours per week in friendly useful fellowship and rich discussion with moderately proPFAL people who have the collaterals in their living room bookcase. There are obviously a lot of them on the net for sure, and a small bunch of known ones in the R.O.A., the read-only audience.
I know a bunch of moderately proPFAL grads locally, and scattered all around the country a larger bunch.From my perspective, the blessings from film&collaterals were massive, and the flesh failures of many who participated in distributing those blessings do not erase those printed books, nor the blessings received from them.
The flesh failures NEED TO BE DEALT WITH better than the ways TWI-2 and TWI-3 dealt with them. I am thankful that some TWI-4 people are willing to approach these topics with me in private. They are figuring out how to handle and sort out both the assets and the liabilities TWI-3 handed them a few years ago.
So I see changes in how lots of grads out there are changing, both Innies and Outies.By “out there” I mean outside this small active GSC fellowship of about ten active posters. Is anyone ready for a new phase in the recognized mission here?Do you really want to go out, one by one, aimlessly maintaining an anti-idol for anti-worship for a dying audience?
Socks, are you out there reading this?You have often been a voice of moderation here. Can you see a change toward constructive criticism here as being possible?
You mean God is so limited he couldn't find another way for the people in Rye to hear Leonard's class?
I think you vastly underestimate the hindrances that limit God in His interventions behind enemy lines.
Think of the meaning behind the prayer with understanding Jesus taught his apostles. Our Father ... thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is done in heaven.
That prayer for God's will being done is FUTURE, when He is no longer limited in getting His will done.
Without the paradigm from PFAL, of the 3 heavens and earths, and the ownership transfers, you can never understand how or why God is limited... temporarily.
Those who thought he was a tradition respected holy man were sorely disappointed, eventually. Keeping eyes on VPW and not on the Word that he taught caused a lot of bitter disillusionment.
It was before I was in the Word for a full year that I saw and heard him distance himself from the goodie goodie holy man image at the end of Rock'72. He put in the class and in his writings the fact that he was weak, and sinned. First John chapter one tells us he had sin, but the holy man seekers glossed over that too.
Cause your application of those sections of scripture are being used out of context by you to prop a charlatan. Again, you can't confess his sins for him. Now you are trying to remove the qualification for ordination as St vic called them when he quoted 1 Timothy 3 in order my steps in thy word
1 Timothy 3:1-7
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Blameless -- he WAS NOT blameless, but when he was confronted he gave people the bums rush and even said abortion was ok with God so he wouldnt have a bunch of out-of-wedlock babies running around.
Husband of one wife -- wierwille had extramarital affairs his entire career as a "man of God". Not only so but he used his position to arrange encounters and to seduce unsuspecting young ladies. He was a sexual predator.
Sober -- sober he was not, by all accounts he was an alcoholic, though appearantly a functioning one. (But Mr Drambuie fails this one too mike) “sober” means “a sound, rational mind to the end that he restrains his pas-sions.” Class did wierwille restrain his passions?
Vigilant -- from OMSW -- "Not getting into a problem- situation, including not becoming intoxicated" -- "A leader is not an extremist one way or the other. He’s stable in all matters. That’s the significance of n‘phalios." --- flunked that one too there mikey. I dunno...was wierwille ever an extremeist? anyone who was around back then?
Given to hospitality -- I do remember the story where the young corps trainee wasnt too sure about his money and wierille is quoted as saying" he can stay as long as his money hold" --- is that given to hospitality? Any other examples out there? Maybe he was given to hospitality.. I dunno on this one.
Apt to teach -- well he sure could put on a presentation and was very charismatic. Too bad what he taught was unscriptural..but Im willing to give credit where its due.
Not a brawler -- A “brawler” is one who is contentious, one who always wants to pick a fight. God’s leader, however, is not like this. He is disinclined to fight, preferring peace. --- Can someone answer this one for me? Was wierwille a brawler with that legendary temper of his?
Not covetous -- The Greek word for “covetous” means “loving money.” A leader is not avaricious; he doesn’t love money. Money is not a leader’s motivating force. --- The entire trustee household fails this one. They ALL lived lavishly and spent peoples donations for their personal lusts. That practice wasnt squashed until the Allen lawsuit when the lawyers introduced the concept of private innurement to the directors at the time. They all used ministry resources and donations for their own personal gain.
One that ruleth well his own house -- A bishop doesn’t mistreat his fam-ily, but he has well-behaved children. -- I dunno, cant speak to his personal life only that on his graveside his widow stated that "He was a mean man"
Not given to wine -- A leader is “not given to wine”; if he drinks, he drinks in moderation. -- Its no wonder wierille commented on this one the least of all. He was given to wine. He kept Drambuie in his coffee cup as did others...he kept mints on his podium to hide the alcohol odor. Im an alcoholic -- its common that we mask our drinking..most every alcoholic tries to hide their drinking somehow. I used to.
Well...mike...your man of God failed most all of his qualifications. But he wasnt a goodie goodie....you got that right.
I think you vastly underestimate the hindrances that limit God in His interventions behind enemy lines.
Think of the meaning behind the prayer with understanding Jesus taught his apostles. Our Father ... thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is done in heaven.
That prayer for God's will being done is FUTURE, when He is no longer limited in getting His will done.
Without the paradigm from PFAL, of the 3 heavens and earths, and the ownership transfers, you can never understand how or why God is limited... temporarily.
So then, according to you, the whole how big is God thing is a lie, right?
Further, God himself asks in the bible Is anything too hard for me?
All you're doing is rationalizing a position that you can't explain.
Well...mike...your man of God failed most all of his qualifications. But he wasnt a goodie goodie....you got that right.
You are right, in the sense that if we were asked for our approval in hiring VPW, we would be obliged and wise to apply the scriptures for us selecting ministers you just posted.
If VPW were applying for the job of being a minister in a local or national church, he should not be given the job. Not without a thorough hearing of evidence.
That is how God instructs us to pick leaders in our churches.
But that is not what happened. It was God, not us humans, who tapped him to collect and refine and teach and distribute. He wasn't applying for that job at the time, but submitting his resignation from being a regular local minister. He accepted the job and he and God worked on it on and off, mostly whenever VPW was in fellowship, for the nest 42.5 years and a lot of people benefitted.
God has foreknowledge and we don’t. That is why we have such strict requirements for out selection of candidates for jobs.God is not limited that way, because He has foreknowledge.
I think you vastly underestimate the hindrances that limit God in His interventions behind enemy lines.
I think you are vastly unqualified to speak on anything God can or cannot do...you lose me with spirit can only speak to spirit and God can only give what he is which is spirit.
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T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
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Mike
I have a bunch of the older versions, and the PDF copy that has been circulating for years is the old 6th edition from 1972.
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OldSkool
On purpose
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chockfull
I’ve done all the things that Research Geek has done. I may have even posted up the Zillow link to the property.
Two PhD students rented rooms in a large house for many years. After they graduated with normal degrees they started a correspondence school named Pikes Peak Seminary. This was not an accredited school like where the renters studied.
There were no classes. No language studies. It was all a series of written essays sent in, along with a thesis paper and presentation in person. The written papers were on homiletics. The thesis paper and presentation were on homiletics. This is all in Mrs VPW book.
The “time” VP put in was minimal. Assembling papers from his multi sources was easy. I would not be one iota surprised to find out Rhoda did all those papers by dictation like she wrote down all the stuff for the collaterals. They all drove out for the presentation and graduation.
There was no masters degree audit done before admitting VP to a doctorate program. Just send in the $$$ from the congregation to pay for it and off you go.
Far beyond a PhD - only if your mind is far beyond reality.
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OldSkool
I never said where it was..aren't u the one who doesn't play the gotcha game and here you are playing gotcha? Remedial.
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OldSkool
Just like his so called research.
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chockfull
On a new set in a new experience. Yes I’ve seen clips. This means nothing.
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OldSkool
He will do whatever he can to move whatever goal post preserves wierwille in that lofty spot he's elevated him to.
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waysider
He went to Princeton Theological Seminary, not "Princeton". Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. It should be easy enough to verify by doing an alumni search, something that doesn't really interest me. He spent a brief time at Pikes Peak Seminary ( a building that is currently functioning as a B&B). Where can I find his dissertation? And that makes him a "Dr."? How?
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chockfull
Jesus bringing a copy of PFAL orange book at the return has to take the cake there.
Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuiuuuuuuude.
”Hey Jesus how do we get born again?” “Wait just a sec I think the answer is on p. 156”
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Mike
Read the green text above from Research Geek again. You missed it where he said the degree was genuine.
I'll tell you why you think VPW was a fake man of God. It's because your preconceived notion was that a man of God has to be a goodie goodie, a holy man, a Jesus like person who had it all together in every category.
Those who thought he was a tradition respected holy man were sorely disappointed, eventually. Keeping eyes on VPW and not on the Word that he taught caused a lot of bitter disillusionment.
It was before I was in the Word for a full year that I saw and heard him distance himself from the goodie goodie holy man image at the end of Rock'72. He put in the class and in his writings the fact that he was weak, and sinned. First John chapter one tells us he had sin, but the holy man seekers glossed over that too.
It you were expecting to see a copy of Jesus in VPW, then you are most disappointed now. I suggest you start all over and seek someone who will, again, teach you the Word.
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OldSkool
Oh...so what else am I thinking there mike-strodamus!
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waysider
And this makes him a Dr.? I went to Burger Biggie last week. I must be a chef now.
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chockfull
No VPW was a fake man of God because when you do as Jesus Christ instructs and don’t listen to a man’s hype but look at the wake behind their boat all you see is faux. And destruction in the wake.
When I was in the Corpse I looked up to the extreme stuff. Now I don’t.
I don’t need to start all over again. My story is complete and makes sense. There a so many more people in todays time who “teach me the Word” than there were in TWI. There used to be VP taught me the Word, and later “the teacher” was replaced by “the ministry”. That was delusional, because “the ministry” is not “the body of Christ” but a fake tree farming organization that gives you a fake tree of life and an absent dashboard Jesus.
Now I can accept the Word as taught by Christian teachers all over the world in many different organizations working towards many different individual goals.
I am no longer isolated and controlled and as such I am no longer of interest to “the ministry”. They want young compliant tithers wanting to save the world.
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So_crates
Okay, let's look at it from a spiritual perspective. On one hand you have an upright man of God, B.G. Leonard. On the other hand you have a lying, abusive, alcoholic rake. Now, God says he's a just and loving God.
Would a just and loving God take the bread out of an upright man of God's mouth and give it to a lying, abusive, alcoholic rake? How is that just? How is that loving?
Is the spiritual realm so limited that God couldn't give Saint Vic a whole new revelation and instead had to have one of his kids steal from the other?
You mean God is so limited he couldn't find another way for the people in Rye to hear Leonard's class?
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OldSkool
It all makes sense that judgement starts at the House of God
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Mike
I can agree and sympathize with much of your post here about keeping your distance from TWI-4, and from your past with TWI-3, -2?, -1?
But the opening, about looking at the boat wake model I strongly disagree.
"No VPW was a fake man of God because when you do as Jesus Christ instructs and don’t listen to a man’s hype but look at the wake behind their boat all you see is faux. And destruction in the wake. "
Let's compare how you and I look at the boatwake of the PFAL film&collaterals since 1968. I do not mean to look at the boatwake of VPW, because that is no loner available to view first hand. The film&collaterals wake is a lot more visible.
Let’s compare how we sample opinions and attitudes of grads.
I see a massive number of massively blessed for eternity people. They are popping up more and more via the Internet, and in lots of ways.
You obviously see how eagerly I seek out and attempt rich fellowship and correspondence with antiPFAL grads, such as yourselves here at GSC. You see how I cross the boundaries of pro versus anti in grads’ attitudes towards film&collaterals. I cross these barriers all the time, and unceasingly since 1986.
BUT do you see how eagerly I seek out and attempt rich fellowship and correspondence with proPFAL grads ??? No you don’t because I don’t do that here.
What befell TWI-2 and TWI-3 has now befallen you folks: insularity.
I don’t mean absolute insularity, but insularity relative to the major schism in the grad population: proPFAL versus antiPFAL.
I am able to find common ground here and make some civil conversation that can lead to progress for the grad population. Well, I try to do the same thing with proPFAL grads everywhere, on the net and locally.
None of them, hardly, are as intense on the special*collaterals as I am, but they like them in varying degrees. I run into a different set of resistances to my message with them. It is challenging for me there, sometimes, than it is for me here.
There are a couple of extreme collateral fans like me scattered about, but we are aging and dying off pretty fast. Bill Winegarner was a proPFAL fan just a hair less intense than me. In his last year on earth, 2022, he self-published a beautifully hard bound Transcript of PFAL’68, the film class. He had made it himself or with friends. He and I worked a little on fixing an earlier flawed version around 2001.
I have made it my business to stay in contact with all my grad contacts since 1971. I refuse to recognize the walls of insularity I saw being erected QUICKLY after the POP, snapping into a crystalized sub-cult mode. Further snapping, some of it good, happened in the decades after 1986, but the big ones happened then.
I cross the walls the best I can, and I am learning to do it better, and the walls the moderately proPFAL grads threw up in the late 80s have eroded and gates installed and some leveled.
You folks probably spend very few hours per week in friendly useful fellowship and rich discussion with moderately proPFAL people who have the collaterals in their living room bookcase. There are obviously a lot of them on the net for sure, and a small bunch of known ones in the R.O.A., the read-only audience.
I know a bunch of moderately proPFAL grads locally, and scattered all around the country a larger bunch. From my perspective, the blessings from film&collaterals were massive, and the flesh failures of many who participated in distributing those blessings do not erase those printed books, nor the blessings received from them.
The flesh failures NEED TO BE DEALT WITH better than the ways TWI-2 and TWI-3 dealt with them. I am thankful that some TWI-4 people are willing to approach these topics with me in private. They are figuring out how to handle and sort out both the assets and the liabilities TWI-3 handed them a few years ago.
So I see changes in how lots of grads out there are changing, both Innies and Outies. By “out there” I mean outside this small active GSC fellowship of about ten active posters. Is anyone ready for a new phase in the recognized mission here? Do you really want to go out, one by one, aimlessly maintaining an anti-idol for anti-worship for a dying audience?
Socks, are you out there reading this? You have often been a voice of moderation here. Can you see a change toward constructive criticism here as being possible?
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waysider
Yes, let's compare. Let's compare a phony doctorate with a real one.
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Mike
I think you vastly underestimate the hindrances that limit God in His interventions behind enemy lines.
Think of the meaning behind the prayer with understanding Jesus taught his apostles. Our Father ... thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is done in heaven.
That prayer for God's will being done is FUTURE, when He is no longer limited in getting His will done.
Without the paradigm from PFAL, of the 3 heavens and earths, and the ownership transfers, you can never understand how or why God is limited... temporarily.
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OldSkool
Cause your application of those sections of scripture are being used out of context by you to prop a charlatan. Again, you can't confess his sins for him. Now you are trying to remove the qualification for ordination as St vic called them when he quoted 1 Timothy 3 in order my steps in thy word
1 Timothy 3:1-7
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Blameless -- he WAS NOT blameless, but when he was confronted he gave people the bums rush and even said abortion was ok with God so he wouldnt have a bunch of out-of-wedlock babies running around.
Husband of one wife -- wierwille had extramarital affairs his entire career as a "man of God". Not only so but he used his position to arrange encounters and to seduce unsuspecting young ladies. He was a sexual predator.
Sober -- sober he was not, by all accounts he was an alcoholic, though appearantly a functioning one. (But Mr Drambuie fails this one too mike) “sober” means “a sound, rational mind to the end that he restrains his pas-sions.” Class did wierwille restrain his passions?
Vigilant -- from OMSW -- "Not getting into a problem- situation, including not becoming intoxicated" -- "A leader is not an extremist one way or the other. He’s stable in all matters. That’s the significance of n‘phalios." --- flunked that one too there mikey. I dunno...was wierwille ever an extremeist? anyone who was around back then?
Given to hospitality -- I do remember the story where the young corps trainee wasnt too sure about his money and wierille is quoted as saying" he can stay as long as his money hold" --- is that given to hospitality? Any other examples out there? Maybe he was given to hospitality.. I dunno on this one.
Apt to teach -- well he sure could put on a presentation and was very charismatic. Too bad what he taught was unscriptural..but Im willing to give credit where its due.
Not a brawler -- A “brawler” is one who is contentious, one who always wants to pick a fight. God’s leader, however, is not like this. He is disinclined to fight, preferring peace. --- Can someone answer this one for me? Was wierwille a brawler with that legendary temper of his?
Not covetous -- The Greek word for “covetous” means “loving money.” A leader is not avaricious; he doesn’t love money. Money is not a leader’s motivating force. --- The entire trustee household fails this one. They ALL lived lavishly and spent peoples donations for their personal lusts. That practice wasnt squashed until the Allen lawsuit when the lawyers introduced the concept of private innurement to the directors at the time. They all used ministry resources and donations for their own personal gain.
One that ruleth well his own house -- A bishop doesn’t mistreat his fam-ily, but he has well-behaved children. -- I dunno, cant speak to his personal life only that on his graveside his widow stated that "He was a mean man"
Not given to wine -- A leader is “not given to wine”; if he drinks, he drinks in moderation. -- Its no wonder wierille commented on this one the least of all. He was given to wine. He kept Drambuie in his coffee cup as did others...he kept mints on his podium to hide the alcohol odor. Im an alcoholic -- its common that we mask our drinking..most every alcoholic tries to hide their drinking somehow. I used to.
Well...mike...your man of God failed most all of his qualifications. But he wasnt a goodie goodie....you got that right.
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OldSkool
A man of God who was here to represent Christ that you readily admit wasnt Christ-like when that's the goal for us all. By your own words mike...
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So_crates
So then, according to you, the whole how big is God thing is a lie, right?
Further, God himself asks in the bible Is anything too hard for me?
All you're doing is rationalizing a position that you can't explain.
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Mike
You are right, in the sense that if we were asked for our approval in hiring VPW, we would be obliged and wise to apply the scriptures for us selecting ministers you just posted.
If VPW were applying for the job of being a minister in a local or national church, he should not be given the job. Not without a thorough hearing of evidence.
That is how God instructs us to pick leaders in our churches.
But that is not what happened. It was God, not us humans, who tapped him to collect and refine and teach and distribute. He wasn't applying for that job at the time, but submitting his resignation from being a regular local minister. He accepted the job and he and God worked on it on and off, mostly whenever VPW was in fellowship, for the nest 42.5 years and a lot of people benefitted.
God has foreknowledge and we don’t. That is why we have such strict requirements for out selection of candidates for jobs. God is not limited that way, because He has foreknowledge.
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OldSkool
https://www.equip.org/articles/the-way-tree-is-splintering/
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/quz_ipikepk.htm
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stiles.htm
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_3scrip.htm
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_sources.htm
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OldSkool
I think you are vastly unqualified to speak on anything God can or cannot do...you lose me with spirit can only speak to spirit and God can only give what he is which is spirit.
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