You got to work that with all the other scriptures that deal with this topic. You are cherry picking verses that you like, and ignoring all the places where God explains the structure of things in the 2nd heaven and earth where we live now.
Remember, God gave great power to Adam.
Adam gave it all to the devil.
Jesus earned it all back from the devil.
Soon he will Return to redeem the purchased possession.
Until then God's will is generally not done on earth.
"...thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven!"
(prays Jesus, yearning for the future when God is not limited.)
You got to word that with all the other scriptures that deal with this topic. You are cherry picking verses that you like, and ignoring all the places where God explains the structure of things in the 2nd heaven and earth where we live now.
Thats not cherry picking! Its a painfully, obvious, clear verse on the subject and a such all those other hard to fit verses must be intrepreted in light of that clear verse. Thats straight from wierwille. You gonna forsake his words to in your efforts to prop his bum @$$ up?
When conditions are right and BELIEVING is right, He is temporarily LESS LIMITED and we see mighty things for a little bit.
Holy unbelief Batman! We need to smack that dashboard Jesus on the head a little so he can look up in the orange book how to help our unbelief so God is LESS LIMITED.
Oh geez. No - Jesus didnt earn anything from the devil. Jesus Christ is going to TAKE back the earth from the devil. Jesus earned mankinds redemtion but its all happening in spite of the devil, he earned it to God Almighty, the unlimited God that nothing is too hard for.
Thats not cherry picking! Its a painfully, obvious, clear verse on the subject and a such all those other hard to fit verses must be intrepreted in light of that clear verse. Thats straight from wierwille. You gonna forsake his words to in your efforts to prop his bum @$$ up?
That is not the ONLY clear verse in your argument's favor. There are more. Plus there are clear verses against your argument.
I say that all the instances where God's greatest power was manifested, there was someone with great believing, which enables God to overcome the limitations His own Cosmic Legal System imposes on Him. I am relaying to you the imagery God gives us to build on.
When God did the deed of GIVING power to Adam, that is God limiting Himself. God set up a system that He obeys, and He makes the devil obey it also. Someday God's will will be done on earth again, but now it is still in the hands of the adversary.
None of this is new to any serious student of PFAL.
Please tell me I am stirring up memories of having learned this.
Wait...this ones golden...the devil is lawless. So God posesses the devil (makes him) in order for the devil to obey God's will....you contradict yourself every other breath....
None of this is new to any serious student of PFAL.
Im sure its not, if you are their representitve (which you are not) then you guys are stuck in the same rut.....the words of you master "choose your rut wisely because you may be in it a long time"
There’s your hint, right there where you wrote it.
God APPEARS to be limited, because our limited perception will not perceive the Truth.
Who is limited? God? or man? Be still. Watch. Find out for yourself.
Some good words.
Sorry, don't mean to be ignoring you.
As you can see by the timestamps, this is a bunch of people, doing a flurry of fast posting. While, I am responding to one, two or three more posts happen that I don't see while composing. Then I post my reply, do a last post post proofread, and then try to see what I missed in the confusion of the long scroll-up.
So lots of posts get missed by me.
What I did the other day is make a copy of each thread, paste them all in MS Word, and slowly whittle them down to respond-able text, deleting the relatively random (flurry caused) posts I already responded to.Doing all this off line is necessary to not be interrupted by two notifications for each post in the on-going flurry.
I’m not sure what to call flurries like this in the Summer time.It seems like a good word now, though, with all the cold weather and snow.
*/*/*//*/*/*
So in a way, Nathan_Jr, I am taking your advice (Be still. Watch. Find out for yourself.) and chilling out for a while, and will collect the flurries after they finish.
*/*/*/*/*/*
MEANWHILE, If any of you posted something important, and you feel it got missed, please re-post it now, JUST THE IMPORTANT ONES, and put that in all caps at the top.That way I’ll be sure to read them more carefully.And think through what is important: 1 Cor 13 we gotta get back to love.
Love is a major theme in John’s First Epistle as a way to guard ourselves from idols.
Mike --- Ive been blunt with you because your error and delusion is deep seated. If you consider me an enemy or unloving for telling you the truth Im fine with that...but Im not going to quit.
Read the green text above from Research Geek again. You missed it where he said the degree was genuine.
(snip)
Research Geek didn't address the Pike's Peak Seminary "doctorate." The place was unaccredited. That means they have as much authority to issue a "doctorate" as Schlotski's Deli.
Princeton Theological Seminary is a real seminary that has no connection to Princeton UNIVERSITY other than both being in Princeton NJ. However, conflating the 2 when discussing vpw is almost de rigeur for some people- lcm did it long before you. AFAIK, vpw had a real Masters, but after that, went to a degree mill for his "doctorate."
I'll tell you why you think VPW was a fake man of God. It's because your preconceived notion was that a man of God has to be a goodie goodie, a holy man, a Jesus like person who had it all together in every category.
Those who thought he was a tradition respected holy man were sorely disappointed, eventually. Keeping eyes on VPW and not on the Word that he taught caused a lot of bitter disillusionment.
It was before I was in the Word for a full year that I saw and heard him distance himself from the goodie goodie holy man image at the end of Rock'72. He put in the class and in his writings the fact that he was weak, and sinned. First John chapter one tells us he had sin, but the holy man seekers glossed over that too.
It you were expecting to see a copy of Jesus in VPW, then you are most disappointed now. I suggest you start all over and seek someone who will, again, teach you the Word.
False dilemma. Somewhere between "lives a clean life totally above reproach" and "he's a cannibal who rapes children" is where we expect most people, including most leaders. It's one thing to say he sins and is "weak", it's another to say he's leveling with people about raping and drugging his congregation, embezzling their money, deceiving them on his sources, committing simony.....
It's ridiculous to reduce things to this foolish level, but everyone ELSE can see it easily, and it hardly qualifies as news. This is what happens when one tries to defend vpw and his rapes and druggings, etc.
Cause your application of those sections of scripture are being used out of context by you to prop a charlatan. Again, you can't confess his sins for him. Now you are trying to remove the qualification for ordination as St vic called them when he quoted 1 Timothy 3 in order my steps in thy word
1 Timothy 3:1-7
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Blameless -- he WAS NOT blameless, but when he was confronted he gave people the bums rush and even said abortion was ok with God so he wouldnt have a bunch of out-of-wedlock babies running around.
Husband of one wife -- wierwille had extramarital affairs his entire career as a "man of God". Not only so but he used his position to arrange encounters and to seduce unsuspecting young ladies. He was a sexual predator.
Sober -- sober he was not, by all accounts he was an alcoholic, though appearantly a functioning one. (But Mr Drambuie fails this one too mike) “sober” means “a sound, rational mind to the end that he restrains his pas-sions.” Class did wierwille restrain his passions?
Vigilant -- from OMSW -- "Not getting into a problem- situation, including not becoming intoxicated" -- "A leader is not an extremist one way or the other. He’s stable in all matters. That’s the significance of n‘phalios." --- flunked that one too there mikey. I dunno...was wierwille ever an extremeist? anyone who was around back then?
Given to hospitality -- I do remember the story where the young corps trainee wasnt too sure about his money and wierille is quoted as saying" he can stay as long as his money hold" --- is that given to hospitality? Any other examples out there? Maybe he was given to hospitality.. I dunno on this one.
Apt to teach -- well he sure could put on a presentation and was very charismatic. Too bad what he taught was unscriptural..but Im willing to give credit where its due.
Not a brawler -- A “brawler” is one who is contentious, one who always wants to pick a fight. God’s leader, however, is not like this. He is disinclined to fight, preferring peace. --- Can someone answer this one for me? Was wierwille a brawler with that legendary temper of his?
Not covetous -- The Greek word for “covetous” means “loving money.” A leader is not avaricious; he doesn’t love money. Money is not a leader’s motivating force. --- The entire trustee household fails this one. They ALL lived lavishly and spent peoples donations for their personal lusts. That practice wasnt squashed until the Allen lawsuit when the lawyers introduced the concept of private innurement to the directors at the time. They all used ministry resources and donations for their own personal gain.
One that ruleth well his own house -- A bishop doesn’t mistreat his fam-ily, but he has well-behaved children. -- I dunno, cant speak to his personal life only that on his graveside his widow stated that "He was a mean man"
Not given to wine -- A leader is “not given to wine”; if he drinks, he drinks in moderation. -- Its no wonder wierille commented on this one the least of all. He was given to wine. He kept Drambuie in his coffee cup as did others...he kept mints on his podium to hide the alcohol odor. Im an alcoholic -- its common that we mask our drinking..most every alcoholic tries to hide their drinking somehow. I used to.
Well...mike...your man of God failed most all of his qualifications. But he wasnt a goodie goodie....you got that right.
This website should be subtitled, "the wor(l)d according to Mike."
I have to wonder why anyone falls into his trap of bickering about minutia. It gives him an aura of validity that is, IMO, most unearned, unreasonable, and perhaps inadvertently lends credibility to the charlatan Victor Wierwille.
This website should be subtitled, "the wor(l)d according to Mike."
I have to wonder why anyone falls into his trap of bickering about minutia. It gives him an aura of validity that is, IMO, most unearned, unreasonable, and perhaps inadvertently lends credibility to the charlatan Victor Wierwille.
I feel ya. I'm stuck between letting him pollute the place with wierwille worship and responding in turn. Not sure which way to go atm.
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T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
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Mike
You got to work that with all the other scriptures that deal with this topic. You are cherry picking verses that you like, and ignoring all the places where God explains the structure of things in the 2nd heaven and earth where we live now.
Remember, God gave great power to Adam.
Adam gave it all to the devil.
Jesus earned it all back from the devil.
Soon he will Return to redeem the purchased possession.
Until then God's will is generally not done on earth.
"...thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven!"
(prays Jesus, yearning for the future when God is not limited.)
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Nathan_Jr
“rich”
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OldSkool
Thats not cherry picking! Its a painfully, obvious, clear verse on the subject and a such all those other hard to fit verses must be intrepreted in light of that clear verse. Thats straight from wierwille. You gonna forsake his words to in your efforts to prop his bum @$$ up?
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Nathan_Jr
“Superstar”
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OldSkool
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Nathan_Jr
Ask the music coordinator.
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chockfull
Holy unbelief Batman! We need to smack that dashboard Jesus on the head a little so he can look up in the orange book how to help our unbelief so God is LESS LIMITED.
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OldSkool
Oh geez. No - Jesus didnt earn anything from the devil. Jesus Christ is going to TAKE back the earth from the devil. Jesus earned mankinds redemtion but its all happening in spite of the devil, he earned it to God Almighty, the unlimited God that nothing is too hard for.
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Nathan_Jr
There’s your hint, right there where you wrote it.
God APPEARS to be limited, because our limited perception will not perceive the Truth.
Who is limited? God? or man?
Be still. Watch. Find out for yourself.
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Mike
That is not the ONLY clear verse in your argument's favor. There are more. Plus there are clear verses against your argument.
I say that all the instances where God's greatest power was manifested, there was someone with great believing, which enables God to overcome the limitations His own Cosmic Legal System imposes on Him. I am relaying to you the imagery God gives us to build on.
When God did the deed of GIVING power to Adam, that is God limiting Himself. God set up a system that He obeys, and He makes the devil obey it also. Someday God's will will be done on earth again, but now it is still in the hands of the adversary.
None of this is new to any serious student of PFAL.
Please tell me I am stirring up memories of having learned this.
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OldSkool
Like h3ll it is, it's God delegating.
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OldSkool
Wait...this ones golden...the devil is lawless. So God posesses the devil (makes him) in order for the devil to obey God's will....you contradict yourself every other breath....
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OldSkool
keep it. Its a fake imagery that is incongruent with almost every scriptural tenet ever.
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OldSkool
Im sure its not, if you are their representitve (which you are not) then you guys are stuck in the same rut.....the words of you master "choose your rut wisely because you may be in it a long time"
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OldSkool
Now I dont hear you place too many limitations on that guy....he can do whatever.
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OldSkool
I quote wierwille to him frequently...sometimes he catches on sometimes not.
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Mike
Some good words.
Sorry, don't mean to be ignoring you.
As you can see by the timestamps, this is a bunch of people, doing a flurry of fast posting. While, I am responding to one, two or three more posts happen that I don't see while composing. Then I post my reply, do a last post post proofread, and then try to see what I missed in the confusion of the long scroll-up.
So lots of posts get missed by me.
What I did the other day is make a copy of each thread, paste them all in MS Word, and slowly whittle them down to respond-able text, deleting the relatively random (flurry caused) posts I already responded to. Doing all this off line is necessary to not be interrupted by two notifications for each post in the on-going flurry.
I’m not sure what to call flurries like this in the Summer time. It seems like a good word now, though, with all the cold weather and snow.
*/*/*//*/*/*
So in a way, Nathan_Jr, I am taking your advice (Be still. Watch. Find out for yourself.) and chilling out for a while, and will collect the flurries after they finish.
*/*/*/*/*/*
MEANWHILE, If any of you posted something important, and you feel it got missed, please re-post it now, JUST THE IMPORTANT ONES, and put that in all caps at the top. That way I’ll be sure to read them more carefully. And think through what is important: 1 Cor 13 we gotta get back to love.
Love is a major theme in John’s First Epistle as a way to guard ourselves from idols.
Peace and Love
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OldSkool
Mike --- Ive been blunt with you because your error and delusion is deep seated. If you consider me an enemy or unloving for telling you the truth Im fine with that...but Im not going to quit.
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WordWolf
Research Geek didn't address the Pike's Peak Seminary "doctorate." The place was unaccredited. That means they have as much authority to issue a "doctorate" as Schlotski's Deli.
Princeton Theological Seminary is a real seminary that has no connection to Princeton UNIVERSITY other than both being in Princeton NJ. However, conflating the 2 when discussing vpw is almost de rigeur for some people- lcm did it long before you. AFAIK, vpw had a real Masters, but after that, went to a degree mill for his "doctorate."
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WordWolf
False dilemma. Somewhere between "lives a clean life totally above reproach" and "he's a cannibal who rapes children" is where we expect most people, including most leaders. It's one thing to say he sins and is "weak", it's another to say he's leveling with people about raping and drugging his congregation, embezzling their money, deceiving them on his sources, committing simony.....
It's ridiculous to reduce things to this foolish level, but everyone ELSE can see it easily, and it hardly qualifies as news. This is what happens when one tries to defend vpw and his rapes and druggings, etc.
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WordWolf
This isn't difficult to understand.
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Rocky
This website should be subtitled, "the wor(l)d according to Mike."
I have to wonder why anyone falls into his trap of bickering about minutia. It gives him an aura of validity that is, IMO, most unearned, unreasonable, and perhaps inadvertently lends credibility to the charlatan Victor Wierwille.
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OldSkool
I feel ya. I'm stuck between letting him pollute the place with wierwille worship and responding in turn. Not sure which way to go atm.
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Nathan_Jr
Confirmation bias has no place in objective investigation.
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