But this does give me opportunity to say something that I have barely ever said.
I don't completely know where to draw the line sometimes, as to what is "God-breathed" and what is not. I have some idea, but not a complete one, on what books to draw a fence around, yet.
Do I include the little booklet "Forgers of the Word" ?? I have no idea, because I haven't had enough time to carefully study it yet. I have thought about the committee written books in this regard a few times, but still don't know.
On page 83, VPW cautions me that "NOT ALL" of his writings can be considered God-breathed. But he does not give any info there on what writings to include or not. I have found some clues, though, elsewhere.
Just like I deeply ponder what texts I feel are in the special category, I ponder as to what is outside that category, as well.
I don't remember what side I was on regarding CSBP with Oldiesman years ago, so I'll have to go back and read it.
How delusional do you have to be to put written class materials as “God breathed” the exact same category as scripture is taught to be?
So does the written word of VPW also take the place of the absent Christ?
If I were you I would stop and start with scripture. Unless you are trying to canonize wierwille I would leave the idea all together. If his works are true they will stand, if not they wont.
Should we help Mike write up a written request to the Vatican tribunal to get the process going to get VP on the road to sainthood?
Oh wait he thinks they are born of seed.
Maybe he could just do a survey at twig and his mental groups. If they vote yes he could just declare sainthood right there.
How delusional do you have to be to put written class materials as “God breathed” the exact same category as scripture is taught to be?
So does the written word of VPW also take the place of the absent Christ?
Deeply ponder that why don’t you?
This is the implication.
The word takes the place of the absent Christ. What is the Word?
YourWalk+YourBelieving+ChristInYou+TheBible = the Word (Mike's definition)
How is one to walk? What is your walk supposed to look like? Like victor's. Imitate him. Stand on his shoulders. Let the collaterals be your guide.
What is one to believe? Whatever Victor says to believe. Four crucified, crowing cocks, moveable commas, apple butter, pickle jars, cookies.... believe PFAL, the collaterals and the oodles and oodles of error within.
What is Christ in you? The power of the law of believing; a rebirth, a new identity dependent on tithing - the sine qua non of Christian identity; "spirit" that one "gets" from systematic formulas and hoop jumping made from the limited thoughts of man; something that can be lost if one is born again, again, because that which is from God is temporal, weak, fallible. Whatever the writings of victor says it is.
What is the Bible? According to victor, the Bible is NOT the Word. But with enough deletions and rewritings as directed by victor, it can approach becoming the Word. Read PFAL and the collaterals instead.
The Word is the ministry.
What is the ministry? Serving up PFAL, IC and the collaterals; programming; conditioning; indoctrination; slavery.
How delusional do you have to be to put written class materials as “God breathed” the exact same category as scripture is taught to be?
So does the written word of VPW also take the place of the absent Christ?
Deeply ponder that why don’t you?
Actually, I do NOT think the collaterals are in the EXACT same category as the original Scriptures.
This is a fine point that I have rarely gotten into here.
The biggest difference between the Scriptures and the collaterals is the collaterals contain NO NEW DOCTRINE. They “merely” explain the doctrine of the Scriptures.
Put another way, the collaterals follow the Scriptures in doctrine, and not the other way around.
Put another way, the collaterals are God’s way of repairing the ancient Scriptures, after their suffering all sorts of damage.
Years ago I had a conversation by e-mail with Karen Martin, one of the PFAL book’s editors about this. She suggested a term that I had never heard before: Inspiration of Explication.Our conversation was interrupted, possibly by her brother Donnie’s passing. I have yet to get back to her.
*/*/*/*/*
We were taught that the original ancient Canonical Scriptures were God-breathed, and I believe that. We were not taught that the phrase “God-breathed” applies ONLY to the ancient Canonical Scriptures.
If I were saying that the collaterals are new doctrine and Canonical, then that would be like Joseph Smith adding to the Word, and should be resisted.
Contrast that to my saying that the collaterals authoritatively clear up the many *issues that have prevented modern believers from enjoying the Word like the First Century believers enjoyed it prior to 1942.
*We could talk for a long time about the “many issues” above. This is the same asthe “all sorts of damage” I mentioned a little earlier in this post.
*/*/*/*/*
The collaterals are not the solo work of VPW.
He had lots of help with people who had some experience in operating the manifestation, like editors and secretaries and researchers, and in his past VPW had teachers that had been taught many thing by God.
I see the collaterals as a product of God working in many people over hundreds of years, and producing a good product, in spite of the flesh flaws of all the participants. How God has Jesus hand out just rewards for all these participants is something we will all celebrate.
VPW’s main job was to find and collect that information as God directed, then integrate it all into a teaching that was understandable by smart 12 year-olds, and able to minister to the broken people, and to the university professors.
*/*/*/*
chockful, I just responded to this post at random, and I know I have let slip into the “scroll-up” a couple of your posts, that I hope to retrieve to soon.
"In the beginning I misunderstood But now I've got it, the word is good
Spread the word and you'll be free Spread the word and be like me Spread the word I'm thinking of Have you heard the word is love?
It's so fine, it's sunshine It's the word, love"----The Lads from Liverpool
In 1971, I picked up 3 fourteen year old hippie chicks who were hitchhiking together on a freeway entrance. They were overflowing with the Word and witnessing to me (not even had the class yet), and I ended up quoting that song's lyrics to them.
After them quoting the only Bible verse I knew, which by coincidence I was wrestling with, they had asked me "Have you heard the Word?"
My response was, "Oh yes. The Beatles sang about it it. 'Say the word; the word is love.'"
At that point, one of the chicks cupped her hand in mock secrecy, saying loud enough for me to hear, "Oh boy! We got a hot one here!" and all three girls giggled.
That song brings me back to that scene, every time now for 50 years.
Actually, I do NOT think the collaterals are in the EXACT same category as the original Scriptures.
This is a fine point that I have rarely gotten into here.
The biggest difference between the Scriptures and the collaterals is the collaterals contain NO NEW DOCTRINE. They “merely” explain the doctrine of the Scriptures.
Put another way, the collaterals follow the Scriptures in doctrine, and not the other way around.
Put another way, the collaterals are God’s way of repairing the ancient Scriptures, after their suffering all sorts of damage.
Years ago I had a conversation by e-mail with Karen Martin, one of the PFAL book’s editors about this. She suggested a term that I had never heard before: Inspiration of Explication.Our conversation was interrupted, possibly by her brother Donnie’s passing. I have yet to get back to her.
So this is ridiculous. You have yet to get back to her. Please do and let us know. She has moved on from TWI so long before your 24 year brain washing it’s not funny. I would LOVE to hear her current opinion on the collaterals.
While you are at it, interview the rest of VPs kids and grandkids who are still alive. Some of VPs last teachings included how the Wierwille family was the legacy of the ministry. But all of them left.
3 minutes ago, Mike said:
*/*/*/*/*
We were taught that the original ancient Canonical Scriptures were God-breathed, and I believe that. We were not taught that the phrase “God-breathed” applies ONLY to the ancient Canonical Scriptures.
If I were saying that the collaterals are new doctrine and Canonical, then that would be like Joseph Smith adding to the Word, and should be resisted.
Contrast that to my saying that the collaterals authoritatively clear up the many *issues that have prevented modern believers from enjoying the Word like the First Century believers enjoyed it prior to 1942.
*We could talk for a long time about the “many issues” above. This is the same asthe “all sorts of damage” I mentioned a little earlier in this post.
*/*/*/*/*
The collaterals are not the solo work of VPW.
He had lots of help with people who had some experience in operating the manifestation, like editors and secretaries and researchers, and in his past VPW had teachers that had been taught many thing by God.
I see the collaterals as a product of God working in many people over hundreds of years, and producing a good product, in spite of the flesh flaws of all the participants. How God has Jesus hand out just rewards for all these participants is something we will all celebrate.
VPW’s main job was to find and collect that information as God directed, then integrate it all into a teaching that was understandable by smart 12 year-olds, and able to minister to the broken people, and to the university professors.
How do you know what VPs main job was? Are you God? Did you read his mind? Or are you projecting “your” idea onto him?
Have you got to the part in penworks book yet about “all the people” who worked on VPs books, did the most work, then were fired without attribution in the work or any royalty like a normal author has for original work?
I really don’t want to lump all the collaterals together even the studies in abundant living were written in different decades. Then how about Adv Class materials? Are they also collaterals? Like “The Myth of the 6 Million”?
CSBP? ADAN? JCNG?
How about Craig’s Acts book? Is that a collateral? It built from the accounts in Acts in PFAL, and a VP teaching on “Great Statements” in Acts.
We’ve already started to get into “Why Division?” In TNDC. But you didn’t want to talk about it. You just want to focus on the blurry general model because it makes an easier idol than working scriptures and thinking.
In 1971, I picked up 3 fourteen year old hippie chicks who were hitchhiking together on a freeway entrance. They were overflowing with the Word and witnessing to me (not even had the class yet), and I ended up quoting that song's lyrics to them.
After them quoting the only Bible verse I knew, which by coincidence I was wrestling with, they had asked me "Have you heard the Word?"
My response was, "Oh yes. The Beatles sang about it it. 'Say the word; the word is love.'"
At that point, one of the chicks cupped her hand in mock secrecy, saying loud enough for me to hear, "Oh boy! We got a hot one here!" and all three girls giggled.
That song brings me back to that scene, every time now for 50 years.
So you were mostly attracted to underage female hippies spouting free love? Totally common in how people started in TWI. Chasing attraction.
If they were 18 and WOW that’s one thing. But 14 is Jeffrey Epstein territory as well as Joseph Smiths youngest poly wife.
Not gonna lie that is more than a little bit cringe.
It is seeming to me like you are clinging to a feeling that included young female attention and a Grateful Dead type environment. And you latched on a simpleton pattern of censorship to go along with it.
So you were mostly attracted to underage female hippies spouting free love? Totally common in how people started in TWI. Chasing attraction.
If they were 18 and WOW that’s one thing. But 14 is Jeffrey Epstein territory as well as Joseph Smiths youngest poly wife.
Not gonna lie that is more than a little bit cringe.
It is seeming to me like you are clinging to a feeling that included young female attention and a Grateful Dead type environment. And you latched on a simpleton pattern of censorship to go along with it.
Hot Free Love and PFAL
You are definitely VPs “son” in da verd.
I grew up with three younger sisters, and that was how I treated the 3 hippie chicks. Otherwise I would not have brought their story up. I owe them my life, and am still friends with one who did most of the speaking. There were no big sex issues in my branch until much later, after I was gone. A Corps superstar was assigned the branch leader, and that ruined it for a lot of people.
My many dance partners now are also all sisters, and all ages from 21 up to 75, but the young fast dancers are the most fun.
How long have you had this problem of thinking evil in others? Maybe we should explore this cringe reflex a little, first. Whatever you feel comfortable with. Here's a hanky.
Unless you were participating in ministry programs that demand you not change your marital status...then you just get your need met any ole way you can. That was rampant when I was in-rez.
I don't completely know where to draw the line sometimes, as to what is "God-breathed" and what is not. I have some idea, but not a complete one, on what books to draw a fence around, yet.
I would think if God gave you the "God-breathe" revelation, He would also reveal which was which.
Your hunch is off the mark, because it was page 83 in PFAL that gave me the term "God-breathed" to apply to some of VPW's writings.
He gives a clue in TNDC by saying if we renew our minds to the Word we "will find that every word I have written to you is true."
There are other clues like "the written materials that come with the class" almost quoting his statement in his last teaching to us.
Another clue is his last Emporia sharing to master the collaterals and be apt to teach them.
None of this proves what you call my hunch is off the mark. All your stating is a bunch of references you want to interpret as clues.
God being perfect would give perfect detailed revelation, as Saint Vic states in the class. Among those details would be which is God breathed and which isn't.
In 1971, I picked up 3 fourteen year old hippie chicks who were hitchhiking together on a freeway entrance. They were overflowing with the Word and witnessing to me (not even had the class yet), and I ended up quoting that song's lyrics to them.
After them quoting the only Bible verse I knew, which by coincidence I was wrestling with, they had asked me "Have you heard the Word?"
My response was, "Oh yes. The Beatles sang about it it. 'Say the word; the word is love.'"
At that point, one of the chicks cupped her hand in mock secrecy, saying loud enough for me to hear, "Oh boy! We got a hot one here!" and all three girls giggled.
That song brings me back to that scene, every time now for 50 years.
At some point Mike, whether you ever come to realize that your hero was charlatan or not, you still could benefit from thinking through what the social climate was like when this happened.
Elsewhere on GSC, I have recently mentioned the book, UnCULTured, which I am reading now. It's a memoir by a survivor of the Children of God cult, Daniella Mestyanek Young published in 2022. The epigraph in the book states, "The first rule of cults is you are never in a cult."
I was in a cult. Specifically in the 9th WC, when Jonestown went down. I remember Loy being VERY concerned that WE were going to be labelled a cult. Of course, he was right. The connection of Ms Young's childhood with your story about picking up three 14 year old girls who happened to be in twi...
This excerpt is from an Esquire magazine story in 2019.
Berg’s church melded worship of Jesus Christ with ’60s-era free love, and preached a fairly standard cult leader prophecy—the apocalypse was coming, and soon. This doomsday predication encouraged his followers to live hand-to-mouth rather than making long-term plans; ex-members latertold The Guardianof begging for alms and subsisting off of donated food.
The cult earned notoriety for its sexual practices, which included what Berg dubbed “flirty fishing,” and which found him ordering female followers to have sex with men in order to bring them into the cult. In 1979, he reported that “flirty fishers” had added 19,000 members to the group’s ranks. "It was religious prostitution,"one of Berg's daughters told Timeline in 2017.
Joaquin Phoenix told Vanity Fair that the introduction of the "flirty fishing" policy drove his parents to leave the group. "They got some letter, or however it came, some suggestion of that,"he said, "and they were like, '.... this, we’re outta here.’"
His mother, Heart Phoenix, told the magazine that "it took several years to get over our pain and loneliness" after leaving the group. Rose McGowan’s familyalso escaped the cult during her childhood.
I'm NOT suggesting you did anything inappropriate with those hitchhikers. I AM suggesting it was odd (but I know from being a kid at that time it was certainly in the realm of possibility) that 14 year old girls would hitchhike. There are obvious parallels between twi and Berg's cult. The difference is perhaps in degrees. The cult leader sets himself up to be beyond challenge internal in the group. He then gets to establish the group mores and rationalize it however he can. The practices look less like a Biblical construct than a manifestation of the desires of the cult leader.
My point is: all of your efforts to frame what Wierwille taught and what he did are stories that YOU give your preferred meaning/interpretation to. I believe everything about TWI was horse pucky.
I do not expect you to believe it because I say it. If I did so expect, it would be unrealistic. I believe it would take something as dramatic for you as what was read in the Book of Acts about how Paul changed his entire belief system in the wink of an eye.
I grew up with three younger sisters, and that was how I treated the 3 hippie chicks. Otherwise I would not have brought their story up. I owe them my life, and am still friends with one who did most of the speaking. There were no big sex issues in my branch until much later, after I was gone. A Corps superstar was assigned the branch leader, and that ruined it for a lot of people.
My many dance partners now are also all sisters, and all ages from 21 up to 75, but the young fast dancers are the most fun.
How long have you had this problem of thinking evil in others? Maybe we should explore this cringe reflex a little, first. Whatever you feel comfortable with. Here's a hanky.
Let’s review your post. 14 year old hitchhikers. “Overflowing” with the Word. A Beatles song with the word “love”. Giggling.
This is 100 percent cringe. There is no thinking evil involved, just responding to your provocative description of 14 year olds. I mean who lets 14 year old girls hitchhike anyway? I certainly wouldn’t let my daughter do anything like that at that age.
I am really starting to doubt any story you tell as being real. There are just way too many flags. I’m just starting to get a real Vic vibe off of you.
The biggest difference between the Scriptures and the collaterals is the collaterals contain NO NEW DOCTRINE. They “merely” explain the doctrine of the Scriptures.
Put another way, the collaterals follow the Scriptures in doctrine, and not the other way around.
Put another way, the collaterals are God’s way of repairing the ancient Scriptures, after their suffering all sorts of damage.
This lunacy isnt new. Jesus Christ day it was the tradition of men, or the tradition of the elders that came from the very unscriptural Babylonian Talmud. Then there were layers of explanations that were passes orally that were just as wrong but treated on par with scripture. The oral traditions were set in place to give a certain intrepretation of scripture that was against actual scripture. Same with wierwille. He was never needed. Mike - you hold the traditions of wierwille above God's Word. They are not God breathed. Some of it's stolen goods and Jesus Christ does not employ thieves or predators in his service. wierwilles works are loaded with rudimentary error. Again -- nothing new to see here. There has never been damage done to scripture, God has made sure it is in tact...no wierwille needed to give his faulty explanation. When people misintrepret scripture, change it like wierwille did in his literals according to usage, or rewrite it like some modern versions, misintrepret a word or two here or there...none of that damages scripture. We are told to study to show ourselves approved! We are told that we need no man to teach us because we have an annointint from the Father and that annointing teaches us all things. We dont need wierwille to teach us anything. His legacy is unfaithful and untrustworthy to this day.
My goodness...do have any actual faith in God to keep his own word in tact? How ridicooulous is the claim that scripture was lost or damaged and it took wierwille to piece it all back together by plagairaising others works that were also in error in many places...sheer lunacy. Look at the fruit of wierwille - damaged lives, young women used sexually by clergy and wierwille himself, drunkeness (- its well known he had Drambuie in his night owl coffee cups...Im an alcoholic mike...thats alcoholism...we dont all drink the same but alcoholics are alcoholics...), living lavisahly off donations that were not given to enrich the trustees but thats exactly what was happening, he was mean --his wife said that about him after he passed, he bullied people and ruined their lives cause of some whim he had at the moment..I mean where do I stop? The mans was actions point to lawless corruption and by all RELAIBLE accounts he went to the grave that way. But you wanna tell people that God needed him to repair scripture that had been damaged? I think God has better sense to employ someone to the task that has 0 actual education in mastering Koine Greek...he got his doctorate from a degree mill...why would God use a cheap knock off to supposedly repair his word? His word has never been damaged...you lay folly at Gods feet and call God a liar because scripture cannot be broken. Come out of the delusion mike. I did and the air is great.
Maybe this is off-topic. I don't know. You decide.
In the late '60s, early '70s it wasn't at all uncommon to see kids hitchhiking, especially kids who were too young to have their own car. And they often traveled together because that's what kids do, they hang out together. Well, at least that was the case in Cleveland, where I grew up. This much of Mike's story I can believe.
All of this has no real relevance, of course, so do with it what you will.
Maybe this is off-topic. I don't know. You decide.
In the late '60s, early '70s it wasn't at all uncommon to see kids hitchhiking, especially kids who were too young to have their own car. And they often traveled together because that's what kids do, they hang out together. Well, at least that was the case in Cleveland, where I grew up. This much of Mike's story I can believe.
I’m not questioning that the hitchhiking was different in the 60s and 70s. And yes I did the cross country hitchhiking stints in the Corps. Those weren’t tremendously safe either as some accounts here detail out.
The cringe to me is how he is talking about it and them.
I too have stories about young hippies and attraction as part of TWI. But I’m not talking about it in the same way.
Some of the young hotties I knew in the ministry would flirt with plenty of people and “undershepherd” them through the class. But they were like puppies. They were selling a false relationship. The hotties had a policy of never having sex with a believer, and especially not the ones they were undershepherding but they would go off on a binge weekend hooking up with unbelievers.
There was internal terminology connected to this that I have long forgotten.
There was internal terminology connected to this that I have long forgotten.
I don't think the expression "Date and Switch" was used internally but it's certainly what comes to my mind when the conversation turns in this direction. Young women would sometimes feign romantic interest in a class prospect just long enough to get them to sign up and start the class. Then, they would move on to the next "sale". Of course, we're all humans with physical needs, so sometimes the relationship reached the next level, as well. Lots of posters here have recounted their experiences with this practice
I don't think the expression "Date and Switch" was used internally but it's certainly what comes to my mind when the conversation turns in this direction. Young women would sometimes feign romantic interest in a class prospect just long enough to get them to sign up and start the class. Then, they would move on to the next "sale". Of course, we're all humans with physical needs, so sometimes the relationship reached the next level, as well. Lots of posters here have recounted their experiences with this practice
Yes it’s not unique to TWI. It’s especially heinous with Mormons and their temple sealing to the celestial kingdom.
FWIW, I don't think I Mike got "involved" with the girls or molested any of them. He was, like many of us, attracted by their enthusiasm and vibrancy,their passion.
Don't think it was sexual attraction, but could be confused with that.
FWIW, I don't think I Mike got "involved" with the girls or molested any of them. He was, like many of us, attracted by their enthusiasm and vibrancy,their passion.
Don't think it was sexual attraction, but could be confused with that.
I don’t think I said that. I object to the free hippy underage love type of image that he seemed to be promoting when we get down to challenging details of his belief.
The 14 year old girl thing triggers me because I have a daughter.
No TWI wasn’t better off when VP talked one of the free love movement leaders into attending an orgy. It wasn’t better with the sex drugs and rock and roll movement.
It wasn’t better in the rain. It wasn’t better on a train. It wasn’t better when in school. It wasn’t better in a pool. It wasn’t better not getting paid. It wasn’t better drinking kool aid.
If I were you I would stop and start with scripture. Unless you are trying to canonize wierwille I would leave the idea all together. If his works are true they will stand, if not they wont.
I’ll buy that !
-As for the work being done here in large part, I don’t think it will stand. I don’t think there will be a next generation that will want to take up this cause of building and maintaining the most negative and evil possible perspective on VPW’s life. You just won’t be able to inspire another generation to take up the torch of the anti idol worship.
I believe that the collaterals because they can be in both paper and digital formats and very compact. Materially, they will last many generations, and lots of people are already passing the material on to their progeny in verbal teaching and teaching by example.
*/*/*/*/*/*/**
I had said to you somewhere: The biggest difference between the Scriptures and the collaterals is the collaterals contain NO NEW DOCTRINE. …..They “merely” explain the doctrine of the Scriptures.…Put another way, the collaterals follow the Scriptures in doctrine, and not the other way around.…Put another way, the collaterals are God’s way of repairing the ancient Scriptures, after their suffering all sorts of damage.
OldSkool said: lunacy isnt new. Jesus Christ day it was the tradition of men, or the tradition of the elders that came from the very unscriptural Babylonian Talmud. Then there were layers of explanations that were passes orally that were just as wrong but treated on par with scripture. The oral traditions were set in place to give a certain intrepretation of scripture that was against actual scripture.…Same with wierwille. He was never needed. Mike - you hold the traditions of wierwille above God's Word.
The difference here is that God’s Word was available in Jesus’ time.
In 1942 it wasn’t available.VPW said that it was buried then.I say it was buried under the Temple debris in 1942, just like it was in Jeremiah’s time. It was hidden in plain sight by religion and tradition and error.
I know for sure I did not have the Word in 1971, and I know for sure it was a miracle that I got to hear it the way I did.
I’d have never tried listening to more than 1 minute of VPW had he not been introduced to me by a group of young teens and young twenties and the collaterals. That was all we had. The collaterals were just little tiny booklets, single chapters, back then.
I needed the collaterals, I needed the introduction by hippies, and I know for sure no other Christian leaders at that time could ever have reached me.
They are not God breathed. Some of it's stolen goods and Jesus Christ does not employ thieves or predators in his service. I refuse to respect the plagiarism charges. What I see VPW doing, with the texts God told him to collect, was identical to Jesus drafting the use of his donkey for riding into Jerusalem.
God was the owner of those revelations and VPW had the real Author’s approval, so why bother with the lesser writers? They will get their due reward, I am sure.
wierwilles works are loaded with rudimentary error. Again -- nothing new to see here. There has never been damage done to scripture, God has made sure it is in tact.. I think this is all debatable.Lost of times the Word was damaged in one way or another. In addition to forged mms, there is the obfuscation varying languages and customs, and many Western distractions and distortions in influential arts.He got live class after live class all successful with SIT, and repeated it far more with the film class.I saw it happen.
I also saw the fall of all that teamwork and love.The fall of the first century church way back centuries ago never made sense to me as I pondered its demise. The fall of the 20th century church of called out accurate believers back decades ago, happened before my very eyes.
We are told that we need no man to teach us because we have an annointint from the Father and that annointing teaches us all things. We dont need wierwille to teach us anything. His legacy is unfaithful and untrustworthy to this day. You got to balance that verse in First John with the eunuch in Acts who said “How can I understand unless a man guides me?”First John is talking to people who already got taught the basics, and by other men. John was saying that teaching was not needed in order to retain the spirit we were sealed with. That was a done deal and it still holds even if we totally forget it.
My goodness...do have any actual faith in God to keep his own word in tact? How ridicooulous is the claim that scripture was lost or damaged and it took wierwille to piece it all back together Several times in the OT the scriptures were lost of destroyed by various means. God always restored it, in His time and His way.I think the collaerals are His latest way of bringing the Word back in sight.
Look at the fruit of wierwille - damaged lives,… -The best view I have of the fruit of PFAL is to look within my own life.Then I look at others, but not just the others here.I have networked out to hundreds of others who have nothing but thanksgiving for what they were taught in PFAL, even if they did not stick with the ministry long.I don’t like the stories I have heard that are negative, but I don’t put them in a doctrine determining role in my life either.
The mans was actions point to lawless corruption and by all RELAIBLE accounts he went to the grave that way. -I highly doubt if you have all access to ALL accounts, and I would not rely on your judgement of reliable.
I think God has better sense to employ someone to the task that has 0 actual education in mastering Koine Greek...he got his doctorate from a degree mill...why would God use a cheap knock off to supposedly repair his word? I think the prime ingredient God needed to get the job done was someone who could stand up to established religion and persist to get it taught.Like God choosing Paul, a most unlikely candidate, so was VPW unlikely in our eyes to be useful. But he got the job done, and lots are still getting blessed.
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T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
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chockfull
How delusional do you have to be to put written class materials as “God breathed” the exact same category as scripture is taught to be?
So does the written word of VPW also take the place of the absent Christ?
Deeply ponder that why don’t you?
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chockfull
Should we help Mike write up a written request to the Vatican tribunal to get the process going to get VP on the road to sainthood?
Oh wait he thinks they are born of seed.
Maybe he could just do a survey at twig and his mental groups. If they vote yes he could just declare sainthood right there.
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Nathan_Jr
This is the implication.
The word takes the place of the absent Christ. What is the Word?
YourWalk+YourBelieving+ChristInYou+TheBible = the Word (Mike's definition)
The Word is the ministry.
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Mike
Actually, I do NOT think the collaterals are in the EXACT same category as the original Scriptures.
This is a fine point that I have rarely gotten into here.
The biggest difference between the Scriptures and the collaterals is the collaterals contain NO NEW DOCTRINE. They “merely” explain the doctrine of the Scriptures.
Put another way, the collaterals follow the Scriptures in doctrine, and not the other way around.
Put another way, the collaterals are God’s way of repairing the ancient Scriptures, after their suffering all sorts of damage.
Years ago I had a conversation by e-mail with Karen Martin, one of the PFAL book’s editors about this. She suggested a term that I had never heard before: Inspiration of Explication. Our conversation was interrupted, possibly by her brother Donnie’s passing. I have yet to get back to her.
*/*/*/*/*
We were taught that the original ancient Canonical Scriptures were God-breathed, and I believe that. We were not taught that the phrase “God-breathed” applies ONLY to the ancient Canonical Scriptures.
If I were saying that the collaterals are new doctrine and Canonical, then that would be like Joseph Smith adding to the Word, and should be resisted.
Contrast that to my saying that the collaterals authoritatively clear up the many *issues that have prevented modern believers from enjoying the Word like the First Century believers enjoyed it prior to 1942.
*We could talk for a long time about the “many issues” above. This is the same as the “all sorts of damage” I mentioned a little earlier in this post.
*/*/*/*/*
The collaterals are not the solo work of VPW.
He had lots of help with people who had some experience in operating the manifestation, like editors and secretaries and researchers, and in his past VPW had teachers that had been taught many thing by God.
I see the collaterals as a product of God working in many people over hundreds of years, and producing a good product, in spite of the flesh flaws of all the participants. How God has Jesus hand out just rewards for all these participants is something we will all celebrate.
VPW’s main job was to find and collect that information as God directed, then integrate it all into a teaching that was understandable by smart 12 year-olds, and able to minister to the broken people, and to the university professors.
*/*/*/*
chockful, I just responded to this post at random, and I know I have let slip into the “scroll-up” a couple of your posts, that I hope to retrieve to soon.
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waysider
But now I've got it, the word is good
Spread the word and be like me
Spread the word I'm thinking of
Have you heard the word is love?
It's the word, love"----The Lads from Liverpool
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Mike
In 1971, I picked up 3 fourteen year old hippie chicks who were hitchhiking together on a freeway entrance. They were overflowing with the Word and witnessing to me (not even had the class yet), and I ended up quoting that song's lyrics to them.
After them quoting the only Bible verse I knew, which by coincidence I was wrestling with, they had asked me "Have you heard the Word?"
My response was, "Oh yes. The Beatles sang about it it. 'Say the word; the word is love.'"
At that point, one of the chicks cupped her hand in mock secrecy, saying loud enough for me to hear, "Oh boy! We got a hot one here!" and all three girls giggled.
That song brings me back to that scene, every time now for 50 years.
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chockfull
So this is ridiculous. You have yet to get back to her. Please do and let us know. She has moved on from TWI so long before your 24 year brain washing it’s not funny. I would LOVE to hear her current opinion on the collaterals.
While you are at it, interview the rest of VPs kids and grandkids who are still alive. Some of VPs last teachings included how the Wierwille family was the legacy of the ministry. But all of them left.
How do you know what VPs main job was? Are you God? Did you read his mind? Or are you projecting “your” idea onto him?
Have you got to the part in penworks book yet about “all the people” who worked on VPs books, did the most work, then were fired without attribution in the work or any royalty like a normal author has for original work?
I really don’t want to lump all the collaterals together even the studies in abundant living were written in different decades. Then how about Adv Class materials? Are they also collaterals? Like “The Myth of the 6 Million”?
CSBP? ADAN? JCNG?
How about Craig’s Acts book? Is that a collateral? It built from the accounts in Acts in PFAL, and a VP teaching on “Great Statements” in Acts.
We’ve already started to get into “Why Division?” In TNDC. But you didn’t want to talk about it. You just want to focus on the blurry general model because it makes an easier idol than working scriptures and thinking.
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chockfull
So you were mostly attracted to underage female hippies spouting free love? Totally common in how people started in TWI. Chasing attraction.
If they were 18 and WOW that’s one thing. But 14 is Jeffrey Epstein territory as well as Joseph Smiths youngest poly wife.
Not gonna lie that is more than a little bit cringe.
It is seeming to me like you are clinging to a feeling that included young female attention and a Grateful Dead type environment. And you latched on a simpleton pattern of censorship to go along with it.
Hot Free Love and PFAL
You are definitely VPs “son” in da verd.
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Mike
I grew up with three younger sisters, and that was how I treated the 3 hippie chicks. Otherwise I would not have brought their story up. I owe them my life, and am still friends with one who did most of the speaking. There were no big sex issues in my branch until much later, after I was gone. A Corps superstar was assigned the branch leader, and that ruined it for a lot of people.
My many dance partners now are also all sisters, and all ages from 21 up to 75, but the young fast dancers are the most fun.
How long have you had this problem of thinking evil in others? Maybe we should explore this cringe reflex a little, first. Whatever you feel comfortable with. Here's a hanky.
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OldSkool
Unless you were participating in ministry programs that demand you not change your marital status...then you just get your need met any ole way you can. That was rampant when I was in-rez.
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So_crates
I would think if God gave you the "God-breathe" revelation, He would also reveal which was which.
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Mike
Your hunch is off the mark, because it was page 83 in PFAL that gave me the term "God-breathed" to apply to some of VPW's writings.
He gives a clue in TNDC by saying if we renew our minds to the Word we "will find that every word I have written to you is true."
There are other clues like "the written materials that come with the class" almost quoting his statement in his last teaching to us.
Another clue is his last Emporia sharing to master the collaterals and be apt to teach them.
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So_crates
None of this proves what you call my hunch is off the mark. All your stating is a bunch of references you want to interpret as clues.
God being perfect would give perfect detailed revelation, as Saint Vic states in the class. Among those details would be which is God breathed and which isn't.
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Rocky
At some point Mike, whether you ever come to realize that your hero was charlatan or not, you still could benefit from thinking through what the social climate was like when this happened.
Elsewhere on GSC, I have recently mentioned the book, UnCULTured, which I am reading now. It's a memoir by a survivor of the Children of God cult, Daniella Mestyanek Young published in 2022. The epigraph in the book states, "The first rule of cults is you are never in a cult."
I was in a cult. Specifically in the 9th WC, when Jonestown went down. I remember Loy being VERY concerned that WE were going to be labelled a cult. Of course, he was right. The connection of Ms Young's childhood with your story about picking up three 14 year old girls who happened to be in twi...
Joker star Joaquin Phoenix had an unconventional early childhood, living in Venezuela, Florida, and eventually Hollywood with his peripatetic parents and siblings Summer, Liberty, Rain, and late fellow actor River. But until Phoenix was around three years old in 1977, the family were followers of the Children of God, a cult helmed by a rogue preacher called David Berg that would later become notorious amid allegations of child sexual abuse. And he’s not the only celebrity who spent some of their early years in the group—Rose McGowan also spent part of her childhood in the cult. Here’s what you need to know.
This excerpt is from an Esquire magazine story in 2019.
Berg’s church melded worship of Jesus Christ with ’60s-era free love, and preached a fairly standard cult leader prophecy—the apocalypse was coming, and soon. This doomsday predication encouraged his followers to live hand-to-mouth rather than making long-term plans; ex-members later told The Guardian of begging for alms and subsisting off of donated food.
The cult earned notoriety for its sexual practices, which included what Berg dubbed “flirty fishing,” and which found him ordering female followers to have sex with men in order to bring them into the cult. In 1979, he reported that “flirty fishers” had added 19,000 members to the group’s ranks. "It was religious prostitution," one of Berg's daughters told Timeline in 2017.
Joaquin Phoenix told Vanity Fair that the introduction of the "flirty fishing" policy drove his parents to leave the group. "They got some letter, or however it came, some suggestion of that," he said, "and they were like, '.... this, we’re outta here.’"
His mother, Heart Phoenix, told the magazine that "it took several years to get over our pain and loneliness" after leaving the group. Rose McGowan’s family also escaped the cult during her childhood.
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Rocky
My point is: all of your efforts to frame what Wierwille taught and what he did are stories that YOU give your preferred meaning/interpretation to. I believe everything about TWI was horse pucky.
I do not expect you to believe it because I say it. If I did so expect, it would be unrealistic. I believe it would take something as dramatic for you as what was read in the Book of Acts about how Paul changed his entire belief system in the wink of an eye.
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chockfull
Let’s review your post. 14 year old hitchhikers. “Overflowing” with the Word. A Beatles song with the word “love”. Giggling.
This is 100 percent cringe. There is no thinking evil involved, just responding to your provocative description of 14 year olds. I mean who lets 14 year old girls hitchhike anyway? I certainly wouldn’t let my daughter do anything like that at that age.
I am really starting to doubt any story you tell as being real. There are just way too many flags. I’m just starting to get a real Vic vibe off of you.
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OldSkool
This lunacy isnt new. Jesus Christ day it was the tradition of men, or the tradition of the elders that came from the very unscriptural Babylonian Talmud. Then there were layers of explanations that were passes orally that were just as wrong but treated on par with scripture. The oral traditions were set in place to give a certain intrepretation of scripture that was against actual scripture. Same with wierwille. He was never needed. Mike - you hold the traditions of wierwille above God's Word. They are not God breathed. Some of it's stolen goods and Jesus Christ does not employ thieves or predators in his service. wierwilles works are loaded with rudimentary error. Again -- nothing new to see here. There has never been damage done to scripture, God has made sure it is in tact...no wierwille needed to give his faulty explanation. When people misintrepret scripture, change it like wierwille did in his literals according to usage, or rewrite it like some modern versions, misintrepret a word or two here or there...none of that damages scripture. We are told to study to show ourselves approved! We are told that we need no man to teach us because we have an annointint from the Father and that annointing teaches us all things. We dont need wierwille to teach us anything. His legacy is unfaithful and untrustworthy to this day.
My goodness...do have any actual faith in God to keep his own word in tact? How ridicooulous is the claim that scripture was lost or damaged and it took wierwille to piece it all back together by plagairaising others works that were also in error in many places...sheer lunacy. Look at the fruit of wierwille - damaged lives, young women used sexually by clergy and wierwille himself, drunkeness (- its well known he had Drambuie in his night owl coffee cups...Im an alcoholic mike...thats alcoholism...we dont all drink the same but alcoholics are alcoholics...), living lavisahly off donations that were not given to enrich the trustees but thats exactly what was happening, he was mean --his wife said that about him after he passed, he bullied people and ruined their lives cause of some whim he had at the moment..I mean where do I stop? The mans was actions point to lawless corruption and by all RELAIBLE accounts he went to the grave that way. But you wanna tell people that God needed him to repair scripture that had been damaged? I think God has better sense to employ someone to the task that has 0 actual education in mastering Koine Greek...he got his doctorate from a degree mill...why would God use a cheap knock off to supposedly repair his word? His word has never been damaged...you lay folly at Gods feet and call God a liar because scripture cannot be broken. Come out of the delusion mike. I did and the air is great.
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waysider
Maybe this is off-topic. I don't know. You decide.
In the late '60s, early '70s it wasn't at all uncommon to see kids hitchhiking, especially kids who were too young to have their own car. And they often traveled together because that's what kids do, they hang out together. Well, at least that was the case in Cleveland, where I grew up. This much of Mike's story I can believe.
All of this has no real relevance, of course, so do with it what you will.
just because...
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chockfull
I’m not questioning that the hitchhiking was different in the 60s and 70s. And yes I did the cross country hitchhiking stints in the Corps. Those weren’t tremendously safe either as some accounts here detail out.
The cringe to me is how he is talking about it and them.
I too have stories about young hippies and attraction as part of TWI. But I’m not talking about it in the same way.
Some of the young hotties I knew in the ministry would flirt with plenty of people and “undershepherd” them through the class. But they were like puppies. They were selling a false relationship. The hotties had a policy of never having sex with a believer, and especially not the ones they were undershepherding but they would go off on a binge weekend hooking up with unbelievers.
There was internal terminology connected to this that I have long forgotten.
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waysider
I don't think the expression "Date and Switch" was used internally but it's certainly what comes to my mind when the conversation turns in this direction. Young women would sometimes feign romantic interest in a class prospect just long enough to get them to sign up and start the class. Then, they would move on to the next "sale". Of course, we're all humans with physical needs, so sometimes the relationship reached the next level, as well. Lots of posters here have recounted their experiences with this practice
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chockfull
Yes it’s not unique to TWI. It’s especially heinous with Mormons and their temple sealing to the celestial kingdom.
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Twinky
FWIW, I don't think I Mike got "involved" with the girls or molested any of them. He was, like many of us, attracted by their enthusiasm and vibrancy,their passion.
Don't think it was sexual attraction, but could be confused with that.
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chockfull
I don’t think I said that. I object to the free hippy underage love type of image that he seemed to be promoting when we get down to challenging details of his belief.
The 14 year old girl thing triggers me because I have a daughter.
No TWI wasn’t better off when VP talked one of the free love movement leaders into attending an orgy. It wasn’t better with the sex drugs and rock and roll movement.
It wasn’t better in the rain. It wasn’t better on a train. It wasn’t better when in school. It wasn’t better in a pool. It wasn’t better not getting paid. It wasn’t better drinking kool aid.
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Mike
I’ll buy that !
-As for the work being done here in large part, I don’t think it will stand. I don’t think there will be a next generation that will want to take up this cause of building and maintaining the most negative and evil possible perspective on VPW’s life. You just won’t be able to inspire another generation to take up the torch of the anti idol worship.
I believe that the collaterals because they can be in both paper and digital formats and very compact. Materially, they will last many generations, and lots of people are already passing the material on to their progeny in verbal teaching and teaching by example.
*/*/*/*/*/*/**
I had said to you somewhere:
The biggest difference between the Scriptures and the collaterals is the collaterals contain NO NEW DOCTRINE. ….. They “merely” explain the doctrine of the Scriptures. … Put another way, the collaterals follow the Scriptures in doctrine, and not the other way around. … Put another way, the collaterals are God’s way of repairing the ancient Scriptures, after their suffering all sorts of damage.
OldSkool said:
lunacy isnt new. Jesus Christ day it was the tradition of men, or the tradition of the elders that came from the very unscriptural Babylonian Talmud. Then there were layers of explanations that were passes orally that were just as wrong but treated on par with scripture. The oral traditions were set in place to give a certain intrepretation of scripture that was against actual scripture. … Same with wierwille. He was never needed. Mike - you hold the traditions of wierwille above God's Word.
The difference here is that God’s Word was available in Jesus’ time.
In 1942 it wasn’t available. VPW said that it was buried then. I say it was buried under the Temple debris in 1942, just like it was in Jeremiah’s time. It was hidden in plain sight by religion and tradition and error.
I know for sure I did not have the Word in 1971, and I know for sure it was a miracle that I got to hear it the way I did.
I’d have never tried listening to more than 1 minute of VPW had he not been introduced to me by a group of young teens and young twenties and the collaterals. That was all we had. The collaterals were just little tiny booklets, single chapters, back then.
I needed the collaterals, I needed the introduction by hippies, and I know for sure no other Christian leaders at that time could ever have reached me.
They are not God breathed. Some of it's stolen goods and Jesus Christ does not employ thieves or predators in his service.
I refuse to respect the plagiarism charges. What I see VPW doing, with the texts God told him to collect, was identical to Jesus drafting the use of his donkey for riding into Jerusalem.
God was the owner of those revelations and VPW had the real Author’s approval, so why bother with the lesser writers? They will get their due reward, I am sure.
wierwilles works are loaded with rudimentary error. Again -- nothing new to see here. There has never been damage done to scripture, God has made sure it is in tact..
I think this is all debatable. Lost of times the Word was damaged in one way or another. In addition to forged mms, there is the obfuscation varying languages and customs, and many Western distractions and distortions in influential arts. He got live class after live class all successful with SIT, and repeated it far more with the film class. I saw it happen.
I also saw the fall of all that teamwork and love. The fall of the first century church way back centuries ago never made sense to me as I pondered its demise. The fall of the 20th century church of called out accurate believers back decades ago, happened before my very eyes.
We are told that we need no man to teach us because we have an annointint from the Father and that annointing teaches us all things. We dont need wierwille to teach us anything. His legacy is unfaithful and untrustworthy to this day.
You got to balance that verse in First John with the eunuch in Acts who said “How can I understand unless a man guides me?” First John is talking to people who already got taught the basics, and by other men. John was saying that teaching was not needed in order to retain the spirit we were sealed with. That was a done deal and it still holds even if we totally forget it.
My goodness...do have any actual faith in God to keep his own word in tact? How ridicooulous is the claim that scripture was lost or damaged and it took wierwille to piece it all back together
Several times in the OT the scriptures were lost of destroyed by various means. God always restored it, in His time and His way. I think the collaerals are His latest way of bringing the Word back in sight.
Look at the fruit of wierwille - damaged lives,…
-The best view I have of the fruit of PFAL is to look within my own life. Then I look at others, but not just the others here. I have networked out to hundreds of others who have nothing but thanksgiving for what they were taught in PFAL, even if they did not stick with the ministry long. I don’t like the stories I have heard that are negative, but I don’t put them in a doctrine determining role in my life either.
The mans was actions point to lawless corruption and by all RELAIBLE accounts he went to the grave that way.
-I highly doubt if you have all access to ALL accounts, and I would not rely on your judgement of reliable.
I think God has better sense to employ someone to the task that has 0 actual education in mastering Koine Greek...he got his doctorate from a degree mill...why would God use a cheap knock off to supposedly repair his word?
I think the prime ingredient God needed to get the job done was someone who could stand up to established religion and persist to get it taught. Like God choosing Paul, a most unlikely candidate, so was VPW unlikely in our eyes to be useful. But he got the job done, and lots are still getting blessed.
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