You just won't understand that physical punishment could be a good thing if one learns something from it. I'd much rather suffer physical pain and teach me a valuable lesson than make a really REALLY big mistake later.
Spare the rod, spoil the child was taken to extremes in twi. Their rod wielding policy defied all logic.
How many shepards are there with the rod per ****? I'm sure the answer is not 500. But in the family corps almost everyone walked around with a wooden spoon in their back pocket , waiting for a child to be out of line so they can wack him. I felt like I had a thousand parents, and was paranoid that every mis step was going to get me beaten. I once had a guy break a spoon over my back. that sure learned me.
In any event, I certainly am not spoiled so I guess it works?
oldiesman, the only beings we use pain on as a training method are children, animals and prisoners. If a man hits his wife with a rod he'd get arrested. If your boss used pain when you mess up at work, it would be a dramtic contreversy. But if your child is fresh and talks back WACK.
I usually don't worry about staying on topic. The only time I insert myself about that is when someone is intentionally trying to change the subject in an effort to avoid any discussion that might disagree with their views.
I don't think you were doing that...were you? LOL! ;)--> Just teasing ya.
Your point is well taken, too. How the world must look to a small fry with a few hundred giants running around with a weapon used especially on him/her. It makes me cry to think about that world.
***********
ExC,
Two things come to mind when I read that article (which, btw, comes to some of the same conclusions I've come to concerning the biblical viewpoint of "rod"):
That twi is described well in this passage: "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." (II Timoty 3:5-7 KJV)
And how much I love my bumper sticker that says: "Fundamentalism stops a thinking mind."
Gawd. I still have a hard time with the guilt of being the kind of mother twi taught me to be...
Love ya back. And actually, I've been good. I lied. ;)--> Honest.
I've got a cool little book by George Mackie, a Scottish minister who lived in the middle east as a missionary, for many years. He has some exquisite things about shepherds. One is the close relationship that develops between sheep and shepherd. A flock learns to respond to him. Shepherds aren't weinies. They have to stand up to everything from wild animals to bandits who want to steal the flock and they often travel solo. When the rubber meets the road, the only thing between an attacker and the sheep is the shepherd and it doesn't sit well with the owner of the flock if he comes up short and loses any. The rod is used to guide the sheep and it's also a weapon against their enemies. If the shepherd dies on the field, it's usually alone and defending the flock. No shepherd who stays employed runs out on his flock. It's not an easy job, but they do it even to this day. Interestin'.
In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.
They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.
I remember being at the ROA in '92...went to the teaching in he big tent that night...Donna Fartindale was teaching on this subject...about the rod and discipline and all...I was a good little TWI mommy...took notes...followed up with what she said the word meant...proceeded to spank my son for the slightest transgression because the Queen of TWI Mommies said it would be best for my child.
How oblivious I was back then to my son's ''affliction'' as they would later call it...he had been diagnosed with ADHD...his little body couldn't sit still...it just wasn't possible for him. How awful I felt (and still feel sometimes) for letting this happen to him :(-->...I love you Michael....
In and of itself, a quick flick with a wooden spoon probably does no harm to a toddler. Think about it....they've got a diaper on! The most they should feel is a quick short mild sting. If you're hitting harder than that, that's wrong ... especially if you do it repeatedly and in anger.
I remember being told "it's to get their attention". So if that's what your end result is...I personally don't think that will harm a toddler (around 18 mos - 2 1/2 or 3 yrs depending on the child's language skills)
The main problem I see is that everything got a huge wack...or more than one...and it was done all day long...everything the child did that wasn't what the parents considered "right" got a whacking as a result. AND when the youngster behaved properly there was no warm praise!
The parents were using the spoon instead of investing any of their own time and energy in thinking things through to prevent or correct a problem.
I remember hearing "Discipline is something you do FOR a child, punishment is something you do TO a child."
The "rod" of correction should change as the child gets older (no - not to a steel strap!). But that's not what they did. They basically used the spoon so hard and so long that by the time these youngsters were around 4 or 5 or so...I'm surprised the children attempted any new thing...after all...they were already beaten into submission. That, was disgraceful!
"You just won't understand that physical punishment could be a good thing if one learns something from it. I'd much rather suffer physical pain and teach me a valuable lesson than make a really REALLY big mistake later. "
I can't help but wonder what mistake could be so big it warrants beating a child, leaving bruises, to prevent.
People say things like, "don't do_________it will ruin your life." or "she got pregnant, her life is over".
Bull! Some decisions may cause difficulties for us down the road, hell many do even when they are the right decision, that is life. But as long as your still alive, your life isn't ruined. If my son dropped out of high school, it is not a decision I would support and it is one which will lead to a rough road, at least for a time, but it doesn't ruin his life, his life isn't over.
So what mistake is so big we should beat our children in order to prevent it? Life and death mistakes? Like what?
Teaching a child not to run out into the street? There's a life or death mistake. You teach a child not to run out in the street by getting off your butt and supervising them while they are outside. And even then, they'll probably do it at least once or twice. Even if you beat them they will probably do it once or twice. But there are plenty of ways to teach this lesson without leaving bruises and by the time a child is five or so, they usually know better. Children too have survival instincts.
So please Oldies man, explain to me what mistake is so "REALLY big" that you'd be beaten than make?
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
I hated that spoon and never used it against my children, but while in the corpse with our Michael I carried one cuz they made me, but I still never used it on him, He too had adhd. But I didn't find that out til we got out of the corpse. He was a very sweet little 2 and 1/2 year old and I knew they were using it on him in childrens fellowship against my wishes.
After we got back home he was a handful, and I think it was caused by that wretched spoon, cuz he wasn't like that before, he is now 24 years old and says he doesn't remember the corpse at all, so I guess God protected his little mind in that area, but he was mistreated by leaders here too so he ran away from home at 15 to get away from it. We left TWI and found our son and when he found out we left he came back home and is a very good young man. I'm sorry too Michael and I love and am proud of you. Love MOM
I have 2 rules for my son, I don't hit him, and you don't hit him. he knows not to hit me.
the result:
on new years day scotty came to me crying his little 7 year old eyes out. he told me the story of the boys on the playground that were mean to him. it seemed these 2 brothers were giving him a hard time and had gone as far as the younger one slapping him in the face and pushing him down. I asked him what he did and he said he went back up and pushed the kid off what they had been playing on. I asked what happened. seems they wanted to follow him around and bully him. I told scotty it was ok to hit someone to defend yourself, never hit someone first. he cried louder, I asked what what was wrong. he said even though he knew he could beat both of the boys up because he is bigger, it would hurt his feelings to know he hurt someone. then came the all time question, do you want them to stop? then if the teachers weren't watching or doing anything about it he would have to and then when he got in trouble tell them, my daddy said to.
when I took him back to school after the holidays I stopped in the office and told the prin. what was going on and that by talking to his mom I had learned this wasen't the first time it had happened and she had talked to the teachers once before about it. he was informed of my telling scotty to defend himself and if it happened to call the other boys mom and we'd all sit and talk.
a few days later I asked my son how things were at school and on the playground. he told me the last time they started to pick on him he told them he was going to hit them back cause he had permission. they left him alone and went to the next child, my son wouldn't allow them to pick on him either.
there are other ways to teach a child something is not acceptable, hitting only hurts.
COOL PJ... methinks you've done a lot of the "right" things throughout this child's life... whether good luck or sound thinking (or a little of both)... you are to be congratulated...
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
The rod could be used as a tool to "spank" the sheep when they disobey or rebel. Just like a wise parent spanks his child, or a wise God disciplines his children, when they need it. A parent or God who does not discipline his children, does NOT love his children.
There are many of ways to discipline a child (which involves teaching them something, Chewster. One does not need to hit them with a wooden spoon to teach them.
Personally, I prefer to use a consequence that suits the cause, i.e. a cause and effect system, as much as possible.
My youngest was having trouble keeping his hands to himself earlier this week, he kept hitting other kids. The teacher got out a toothbrush and bucket of water. She told him it seemed he needed something to keep his hands busy and put him to work on a section of floor. I thought that was brilliant. :)-->
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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oldiesman
You just won't understand that physical punishment could be a good thing if one learns something from it. I'd much rather suffer physical pain and teach me a valuable lesson than make a really REALLY big mistake later.
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CoolWaters
Oh jeeze...blather blather blather about anything and everything but the subject at hand.
Can you answer the question?
?????????????
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Georgio Jessio
Spare the rod, spoil the child was taken to extremes in twi. Their rod wielding policy defied all logic.
How many shepards are there with the rod per ****? I'm sure the answer is not 500. But in the family corps almost everyone walked around with a wooden spoon in their back pocket , waiting for a child to be out of line so they can wack him. I felt like I had a thousand parents, and was paranoid that every mis step was going to get me beaten. I once had a guy break a spoon over my back. that sure learned me.
In any event, I certainly am not spoiled so I guess it works?
oldiesman, the only beings we use pain on as a training method are children, animals and prisoners. If a man hits his wife with a rod he'd get arrested. If your boss used pain when you mess up at work, it would be a dramtic contreversy. But if your child is fresh and talks back WACK.
Cool waters, sorry I'm kinda off your point.
Glow-ry!
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excathedra
here's a nice article for bible-believin' folks
it's about parents disciplining their OWN children
http://www.christianitytoday.com/cpt/2003/002/6.50.html
?
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CoolWaters
Georgio,
I usually don't worry about staying on topic. The only time I insert myself about that is when someone is intentionally trying to change the subject in an effort to avoid any discussion that might disagree with their views.
I don't think you were doing that...were you? LOL!
;)--> Just teasing ya.
Your point is well taken, too. How the world must look to a small fry with a few hundred giants running around with a weapon used especially on him/her. It makes me cry to think about that world.
***********
ExC,
Two things come to mind when I read that article (which, btw, comes to some of the same conclusions I've come to concerning the biblical viewpoint of "rod"):
Gawd. I still have a hard time with the guilt of being the kind of mother twi taught me to be...
?????????????
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excathedra
try to go easy on yourself CW
?
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excathedra
oh man if i had a rod right now i would nurture you all to death
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
?
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socks
I've been a bad boy!
;)-->
In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.
They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.
James Taylor
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excathedra
dearest johnnysocks who i love beyond words
this post is for people other than you and me
i'm going to bed now
but i want others to know that i was trying to make a point about when you really love someone like god or christ loves us
and like the love we have for each other JS
goodnight
?
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socks
Love ya back. And actually, I've been good. I lied.
;)--> Honest.
I've got a cool little book by George Mackie, a Scottish minister who lived in the middle east as a missionary, for many years. He has some exquisite things about shepherds. One is the close relationship that develops between sheep and shepherd. A flock learns to respond to him. Shepherds aren't weinies. They have to stand up to everything from wild animals to bandits who want to steal the flock and they often travel solo. When the rubber meets the road, the only thing between an attacker and the sheep is the shepherd and it doesn't sit well with the owner of the flock if he comes up short and loses any. The rod is used to guide the sheep and it's also a weapon against their enemies. If the shepherd dies on the field, it's usually alone and defending the flock. No shepherd who stays employed runs out on his flock. It's not an easy job, but they do it even to this day. Interestin'.
In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.
They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.
James Taylor
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jezusfreaky
I remember being at the ROA in '92...went to the teaching in he big tent that night...Donna Fartindale was teaching on this subject...about the rod and discipline and all...I was a good little TWI mommy...took notes...followed up with what she said the word meant...proceeded to spank my son for the slightest transgression because the Queen of TWI Mommies said it would be best for my child.
How oblivious I was back then to my son's ''affliction'' as they would later call it...he had been diagnosed with ADHD...his little body couldn't sit still...it just wasn't possible for him. How awful I felt (and still feel sometimes) for letting this happen to him
:(-->...I love you Michael....
Love,
Mommy
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krys
In and of itself, a quick flick with a wooden spoon probably does no harm to a toddler. Think about it....they've got a diaper on! The most they should feel is a quick short mild sting. If you're hitting harder than that, that's wrong ... especially if you do it repeatedly and in anger.
I remember being told "it's to get their attention". So if that's what your end result is...I personally don't think that will harm a toddler (around 18 mos - 2 1/2 or 3 yrs depending on the child's language skills)
The main problem I see is that everything got a huge wack...or more than one...and it was done all day long...everything the child did that wasn't what the parents considered "right" got a whacking as a result. AND when the youngster behaved properly there was no warm praise!
The parents were using the spoon instead of investing any of their own time and energy in thinking things through to prevent or correct a problem.
I remember hearing "Discipline is something you do FOR a child, punishment is something you do TO a child."
The "rod" of correction should change as the child gets older (no - not to a steel strap!). But that's not what they did. They basically used the spoon so hard and so long that by the time these youngsters were around 4 or 5 or so...I'm surprised the children attempted any new thing...after all...they were already beaten into submission. That, was disgraceful!
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Abigail
"You just won't understand that physical punishment could be a good thing if one learns something from it. I'd much rather suffer physical pain and teach me a valuable lesson than make a really REALLY big mistake later. "
I can't help but wonder what mistake could be so big it warrants beating a child, leaving bruises, to prevent.
People say things like, "don't do_________it will ruin your life." or "she got pregnant, her life is over".
Bull! Some decisions may cause difficulties for us down the road, hell many do even when they are the right decision, that is life. But as long as your still alive, your life isn't ruined. If my son dropped out of high school, it is not a decision I would support and it is one which will lead to a rough road, at least for a time, but it doesn't ruin his life, his life isn't over.
So what mistake is so big we should beat our children in order to prevent it? Life and death mistakes? Like what?
Teaching a child not to run out into the street? There's a life or death mistake. You teach a child not to run out in the street by getting off your butt and supervising them while they are outside. And even then, they'll probably do it at least once or twice. Even if you beat them they will probably do it once or twice. But there are plenty of ways to teach this lesson without leaving bruises and by the time a child is five or so, they usually know better. Children too have survival instincts.
So please Oldies man, explain to me what mistake is so "REALLY big" that you'd be beaten than make?
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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Abigail
BTW, you still haven't answered my question in the other thread. Can't face the truth?
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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wyteduv58
I hated that spoon and never used it against my children, but while in the corpse with our Michael I carried one cuz they made me, but I still never used it on him, He too had adhd. But I didn't find that out til we got out of the corpse. He was a very sweet little 2 and 1/2 year old and I knew they were using it on him in childrens fellowship against my wishes.
After we got back home he was a handful, and I think it was caused by that wretched spoon, cuz he wasn't like that before, he is now 24 years old and says he doesn't remember the corpse at all, so I guess God protected his little mind in that area, but he was mistreated by leaders here too so he ran away from home at 15 to get away from it. We left TWI and found our son and when he found out we left he came back home and is a very good young man. I'm sorry too Michael and I love and am proud of you. Love MOM
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... too dumb to post pics http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?s=9716057...a&ul=4846073735
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papajohn
I have 2 rules for my son, I don't hit him, and you don't hit him. he knows not to hit me.
the result:
on new years day scotty came to me crying his little 7 year old eyes out. he told me the story of the boys on the playground that were mean to him. it seemed these 2 brothers were giving him a hard time and had gone as far as the younger one slapping him in the face and pushing him down. I asked him what he did and he said he went back up and pushed the kid off what they had been playing on. I asked what happened. seems they wanted to follow him around and bully him. I told scotty it was ok to hit someone to defend yourself, never hit someone first. he cried louder, I asked what what was wrong. he said even though he knew he could beat both of the boys up because he is bigger, it would hurt his feelings to know he hurt someone. then came the all time question, do you want them to stop? then if the teachers weren't watching or doing anything about it he would have to and then when he got in trouble tell them, my daddy said to.
when I took him back to school after the holidays I stopped in the office and told the prin. what was going on and that by talking to his mom I had learned this wasen't the first time it had happened and she had talked to the teachers once before about it. he was informed of my telling scotty to defend himself and if it happened to call the other boys mom and we'd all sit and talk.
a few days later I asked my son how things were at school and on the playground. he told me the last time they started to pick on him he told them he was going to hit them back cause he had permission. they left him alone and went to the next child, my son wouldn't allow them to pick on him either.
there are other ways to teach a child something is not acceptable, hitting only hurts.
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Tom Strange
COOL PJ... methinks you've done a lot of the "right" things throughout this child's life... whether good luck or sound thinking (or a little of both)... you are to be congratulated...
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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chwester
The rod could be used as a tool to "spank" the sheep when they disobey or rebel. Just like a wise parent spanks his child, or a wise God disciplines his children, when they need it. A parent or God who does not discipline his children, does NOT love his children.
Proud to be an American
www.northpoint.org
www.anncoulter.org
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excathedra
please see socks's post on the child abuse thread right above here
?
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excathedra
?
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WordWolf
So, then,
"discipline" equals "beat them down"?
How do these reprobate sheep walk around the pasture after the
shepherd has demonstrated to them who's boss by laying the smack down
on them?
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Abigail
There are many of ways to discipline a child (which involves teaching them something, Chewster. One does not need to hit them with a wooden spoon to teach them.
Personally, I prefer to use a consequence that suits the cause, i.e. a cause and effect system, as much as possible.
My youngest was having trouble keeping his hands to himself earlier this week, he kept hitting other kids. The teacher got out a toothbrush and bucket of water. She told him it seemed he needed something to keep his hands busy and put him to work on a section of floor. I thought that was brilliant.
:)-->
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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WordWolf
Clicking this up to go with its companions.
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imbus
In the other post(TWI and abuse) I mentioned a book by Alice Miller "FOR YOUR OWN GOOD", [Hidden cruelty in child-rearing and the roots of violence.]
I think this book will do wonders to open up your undestanding to why TWI taught parenting like they did.
Be advised that those of us who followed there teachings had hearts of gold in wanting to be the best parents possible.
AS for me I believe God has covered a multitude of ignorance with a whole lot of GRACE AND LOVE.
Child-rearing is more inspiried help from God then it is a wooden spoon suppliment or replacement for God.
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