Oldies, (damn, I can be a pain in the a**, can't I? ;)-->)
Sunesis is full of crap eh? As in not one word of truth about VPW being a nazi-sympathetic Jew-despising bigot?
Got more bad news for ya pal. I also saw "Myth of the Six Million" sold right in the Way Bookstore back at the Rock of '75. "The Thirteenth Tribe" was also a big seller.
Face it. You aren't going to make all this anti-VPW info go away. And the more you desperately try to ressurect his already **trashed** reputation, the worse it will make you look. And there is no godly or logical reason for you to keep holding on to VPW like he was some 'security blankey'.
I can't believe I'm about to do this (somewhat defend OM's view) but here goes...
Does just (and I say just this one point) VPW being uncomfortable with mixed ethnic marriages make him 100% racist? I'm not sure I'd go that far. In his time (which I believe should be taken into consideration) it was a huge taboo for many, if not most, white people. Rural, primarily white, Ohio farming communities in the 30s probably weren't hotbeds of multiculturalism. That he may have struggled with the idea doesn't surprise me. My guess is many people of his generation had a hard time with the idea of racial integration. Does that make them all racists? Not necessarily. Just struggling to outgrow old, bad ideas.
My sister is in a mixed marriage which I thought for sure would kill my father. Or my father would kill him. But... he did come to the wedding and VERY grudgingly accepted the idea. 15 years later and it was no big deal to him. Yes, it took almost that long. And the two of them are really close now. My father grew up in Ohio in a small town like New Knoxville. He also heard that Jews were evil, all blacks were lazy and dumb , etc. It took a lot to outgrow that but he did. It just took a lot of time and patience.
Having said that, the other things like Liberty Lobby are pretty bizarro.
quote:IMHO it is not realistic to maintain that Wierwille was not prejudiced against Jews. It would have been enough to cite Koestler's Thirteenth Tribe as an academic point, but what was the point about constantly bringing up modern Jews' lack of connection to the biblical Jews? So what?
Oakspear, I'll take a stab at why. I think two reasons: political and financial.
quote:...Descendants of Noah's son Shem, were called "Shemites," later written Semites. There may be some Semites among the modern Jews, however Arthur Koestler has ably documented that most modern Jews are not descendents of Shem or the Biblical tribes, but of Gentile converts to Judaism.
...
Many libraries have the following books in them, as do our libraries. If that makes us anti-Semitic, then every other institution having those books in their library should also be so labeled. Number one, "The Thirteenth Tribe" by Arthur Koestler, Ramdom House Publishers; Number two, "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" by Arthur R. Butz, Noontide Press Publishers. Number three, "The Myth of the Six Million," the author is anonymous, Noontide Press Publishers.
There are people who are against the modern Jers, but how can they be called "anti-Semitic" if the modern Jew is not Semitic? Then why all the fuss? The image must be maintained for political and financial reasons. No one dares to upset the "apple cart". It is financially unwise to do so. It makes governments and even denominations feel sympathetic and support Israel, for no one would want to hurt "God's Chosen People."
Especially during stress times, like times of war, every nation has a department of propaganda, which literally means a department to forge slanted "half-truths" and why they feel it necessary to stimulate men's action toward the goals they desire. Israel is apparently a nationalistic and political creation for assumed expediency for certain nations. [(This is a different conclusion then that of Arthur Koestler, who says in his book that Israel has a genuine national identity, apart from the "Chosen Race" theory.)-oldies] "The Myth of the Six Million" appears to have been political and nationalistic. The propaganda machinery was used to gain emotional and sympathetic support for their intended purposes.
The Jews had my love and support then, and they have it now. By the way, many of my ancestors suffered greatly by persecution and death following the revocation of the Edict of Nantes in France in the town called Vierville. ...
Victor Paul Wierwille
"By The Way" -- St. Mary's Evening Leader
Sept. 26, 1980
I would add that another reason why he had these books was religious, wanted us to know or at least be aware that the Jews are not "God's Chosen People" and that even the Jews must go through Jesus Christ to come to the Father ...
quote:...Descendants of Noah's son Shem, were called "Shemites," later written Semites. There may be some Semites among the modern Jews, however Arthur Koestler has ably documented that most modern Jews are not descendents of Shem or the Biblical tribes, but of Gentile converts to Judaism.
And this, it turns out, is not true. DNA evidence debunks Koestler's theory. Wierwille could not have known that at the time, but it turns out that Koestler's theory, interesting as it may have been, was incorrect.
I'd also recommend checking out the amazon.com entry for this book, as people have weighed in on the subject.
I recall reading an old piece of literature...
That's a joke. Actually, I recall reading a NY Times article that went into some detail ont he subject: but it's in the Times archives now and, frankly, I don't feel like spending money to retrieve it. :)-->
The empassioned calls to service, the ribbons, the pomp and ceremony. Even at the time I thought that the W.O.W. "pinning" event was reminiscent of a Hitler Youth Rally.
QUOTE]A very interesting point and have to look up some historical facts about these youth rallies. Not too sure about the Hitler thing because we had many people from Jewish backgrounds in the ministry and my pitch a bitch would be is friends I had and dear friends who had no desire whatsoever to be in TWI(but respected my choice but their choice was deemed wrong ?) were labed "natural men " and the whole be not yoked together I think was taken way out of bounds !"crap" I guess from a military view I was kind of a military underlink for the WAY and had to keep that rank and file and follow orders from my superiors ! """YES SIR TWIG,.BRANCH, LIMB,TRUNK AND EVERY WHICH WAY FAMILY CORP, WAY CORP AND ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP SIR ! What garbage and caused me to sneak away (what was called tripping out !) AND OUT OF THE BARRACKS to be with my non TWI friends once in a while!!!! ahhhhhhhhhh My decision to play this game and wish I would have left my unit behind on my 2nd WoW YEAR AND LEFT THE WHOLE DAM TWI ARMED SERVICES FOR GOOD TOO THEN!I have survived and will get by though and have learned not to ever reapeat past mistakes with any organaztion or church in the present and future too!!
Sunesis, you're full of crap. Oldiesman ??????????????
REALLY FULL OF CRAP ? SO YOU YOU ARE CALLING SOMEONE A LIAR ? YOU WERE THERE ? COME ON TAKE IT UP IN A PRIVATE POST WILL YA ? YOU HAVE YOUR OPINION AND I HAVE MINE AND WHO KNOWS WHAT WAS SAID TO WHOM ? YOU HAVE AMAZING KRESKIN ABILTIES OR OPERATING ALL 9 ALL TIME ? MAYBE SOMETHING I AM MISSING LIKE BAD BLOOD BETWEEN YOU AND THE PERSON YOU ARE CALLING A LIAR OR FULL OF CRAP? NOTHING PERSONAL AND I DON'T EVEN KNOW YOU BUT YOU'RE MAKING A BAD IMPRESSION AND EVEN PRIVATE POST ME EH TOO DISCUSS FURTHUR ? ? DID I LIE TOO ? HAVE SOME MANNERS !!!!!!!!
Seems most people have their mind made up and either *buy* the Thirteenth Tribe as gospel or see it as bunk. Same with the DNA, proof for one side and bunk for the other.
I tend to believe that in this day and age of information we live in and with the very long history of hatred towards the Jews, they would not make such statements that couldn’t be backed up. I did not see any place where scientific evidence disproved what is being said about the DNA.
"I would add that another reason why he had these books was religious, wanted us to know or at least be aware that the Jews are not 'God's Chosen People' and that even the Jews must go through Jesus Christ to come to the Father ... "
*****
That the demand of faith in Jesus Christ rests uncompromisingly on Jews, as it does upon all, is known by the testimony of Scripture. It is authoritative to those having a normative view of Scripture on the basis that what is asserted by Scripture is asserted with God's authority.
Whatever Wierwille's motives, the scriptural point that Jews have no exemption from God's demand of faith was neither demonstrated, expounded on, nor advanced by Wierwille's peddling of one-world-government paranoia and pseudo-histories characteristic of Anglo-Israelism and Holocaust revisionism. Whatever Wierwille was promoting by such things is not identifiable with the gospel of Christ.
For something written by a more reflecting German, I recommend:
Back when I read The Thirteenth Tribe, I wondered, so what if they aren't mostly descendants of the original twelve tribes? Aren't proselytes also considered Jews?
Then I heard Wierwille's opinions (back then), of how he thought that "anti-Semitic" was a misnomer, because Jews weren't Semitic, according to him. And I thought, don't we generally assume that by "anti-Semitic" we mean "anti-Jewish?"
And now I have to laugh at the above article quoted by Oldiesman. Wierwille tries to give credibility to "The Myth of the Six Million" by saying it is in some of our libraries. Knowing how some books get INTO our libraries, I hardly think that he had a plausible argument. And yes, a man who sells anti-Jewish literature in his Bible bookstore without debunking that view SHOULD be called "anti-Jewish."
And yeah, Cynic, if the Bible is to be held as God's Word, which is what Wierwille said he believed, then it is the BIBLE that divides people into THREE groups: JEWS, Gentiles, and church of God. It is the BIBLE that expounded upon the advantage of the Jew in the book of Romans. It is the Bible that says "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." And it is the BIBLE that says they that live by the law shall be judged by the law, not judged that they didn't accept Christ.
Not to sound redundent... but "For Your Own Good" by Alicwe Miller will substanctiate the Patton syndrome of V.P. Victors mind set for hierarchh was already astablished by the time he was a young adult. The Autocratic teachings that were a part of his germanic up bring played out in his organization.
This book I have mentioned explains Hitler, Weirwill and other individuals who have masterfully manipulated the masses.
Yes, according to this book V.P did fashion TWI and the WC like a militay power house, "spiritually speaking". Gods crack troops. Go figure. Another part of the puzzle put in place.
If this was helpful, I'm VERY glad! From the book you mentioned:
"Two passages from Dr. Schreber's advice to parents. writ-ten in 1858 will illustrate the method of raising children prevalent at the time:
"The little ones' displays of temper as indicated by screaming or crying without cause should be regarded as the first test of your spiritual and pedagogical principles . . . Once you have established that nothing is really wrong, that the child is not ill, distressed, or in pain, then you can rest assured that the screaming is nothing more than an outburst of temper, a whim, the first appearance of willfulness. Now you should no longer simply wait for it to pass as you did in the beginning but should proceed in a somewhat more positive way: by quickly diverting its attention, by stern words, threatening gestures, rapping on the bed or if none of this helps. by appropriately mild corporal admonitions repeated persistently at brief intervals until the child quiets down or falls asleep."
"This procedure will be necessary only once or at most, twice, and then you will be master of the child forever. From now on, a glance, a word, a single threatening gesture will be sufficient to control the child. Remember that this will be of the greatest benefit to your child since it will spare him many hours of agitation inimical to his successful growth, freeing him from all those inner torments that can, moreover, very easily lead to a proliferation of pernicious character traits that will become increasingly difficult to conquer. IQuoted in Morton Schatznian, Soul Murder]"
TWI was viewed as being anti-Jewish by some outside of TWI. If VPW, the leader of TWI, was so totally clean of being anti-Jewish, how did others outside of TWI get the idea he was himself anti-Jewish and was promoting to others anti-Jewish beliefs?
In about 1981, TAKIT (a TWI band) did a show at a theater in the Twin Cities here in Minnesota. I remember there being quite a few people picketing the building carrying signs about TWI being anti-Jewish. At the time, I had no idea why the picketers would think such a thing, but I wondered.
A couple of years later when I read "13th Tribe", "Myth of the 6M" and heard teachings and comments in the Way Corps, I realized why the picketers were at the theater. Even while still involved with TWI, I had come to realize that TWI was anti-Jewish.
Having been very interested in the Holocaust and Hitler's role in inciting people to murder the Jews, I'd done a lot of reading, had taken a course on Totalitarian governments and written a paper on the subject. This was in high school before I even heard of TWI.
Having seen pictures of emaciated Jews, reading of the horrible things that happened, it didn't matter to me if there were 10 Jews or 6M Jews treated and exterminated that way. VP and TWI lost lots of respect and credibility in my eyes. It was part of my process of getting rid of the rose colored glasses that I had formerly used to view TWI.
Agreed, Mary Cate. What if it was hundreds? Thousands? Is it still horrendous? Of course it is. (But guess what? They've been counting, and it IS millions.)
And what about VPW and LCM and the women they harmed? And the families they broke apart? And the individual lives they destroyed? What if it was only a few people raped? Only a few families cut off from loved ones? Is it still awful? Of course.
Alice Walker is a well known psychiatrist of Germany back in the 80s and wrote this book in german first. The world got a hold of it and since has been translated in English. Her work in the feild of violence is renown. It's worth owning and is a keeper.
Last time I talked with him, he was supposed to be headed to Torrence CA for his interim year at the same time I went to Philly for 1978-79. When I started my final residence year at HQ I had no idea where he was (except not at HQ) and had too many other things going on (!) to inquire.
The observation I make about The Thirteenth Tribe was that it was at least original research, not plagiarised as was most of VPWs work.
Koestler never used his conclusions to espouse Holocaust denial, he simply concluded that both the Nazi persecutors and their victims were under a misapprehension as to what anti semitism actually was.
It is a large jump from stating that a large number of modern Jewry were not descended from the twelve tribes to claiming that the mass murders never happened and I am sure that Koestler would have been annoyed to know that his work had been used to justify the theories that VPW propounded as gospel.
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Oldies, (damn, I can be a pain in the a**, can't I?
;)-->)
Sunesis is full of crap eh? As in not one word of truth about VPW being a nazi-sympathetic Jew-despising bigot?
Got more bad news for ya pal. I also saw "Myth of the Six Million" sold right in the Way Bookstore back at the Rock of '75. "The Thirteenth Tribe" was also a big seller.
Face it. You aren't going to make all this anti-VPW info go away. And the more you desperately try to ressurect his already **trashed** reputation, the worse it will make you look. And there is no godly or logical reason for you to keep holding on to VPW like he was some 'security blankey'.
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JustThinking
I can't believe I'm about to do this (somewhat defend OM's view) but here goes...
Does just (and I say just this one point) VPW being uncomfortable with mixed ethnic marriages make him 100% racist? I'm not sure I'd go that far. In his time (which I believe should be taken into consideration) it was a huge taboo for many, if not most, white people. Rural, primarily white, Ohio farming communities in the 30s probably weren't hotbeds of multiculturalism. That he may have struggled with the idea doesn't surprise me. My guess is many people of his generation had a hard time with the idea of racial integration. Does that make them all racists? Not necessarily. Just struggling to outgrow old, bad ideas.
My sister is in a mixed marriage which I thought for sure would kill my father. Or my father would kill him. But... he did come to the wedding and VERY grudgingly accepted the idea. 15 years later and it was no big deal to him. Yes, it took almost that long. And the two of them are really close now. My father grew up in Ohio in a small town like New Knoxville. He also heard that Jews were evil, all blacks were lazy and dumb , etc. It took a lot to outgrow that but he did. It just took a lot of time and patience.
Having said that, the other things like Liberty Lobby are pretty bizarro.
JT
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oldiesman
Oakspear, I'll take a stab at why. I think two reasons: political and financial.
Victor Paul Wierwille"By The Way" -- St. Mary's Evening Leader
Sept. 26, 1980
I would add that another reason why he had these books was religious, wanted us to know or at least be aware that the Jews are not "God's Chosen People" and that even the Jews must go through Jesus Christ to come to the Father ...
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Raf
And this, it turns out, is not true. DNA evidence debunks Koestler's theory. Wierwille could not have known that at the time, but it turns out that Koestler's theory, interesting as it may have been, was incorrect.
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Grizzy
Ok Raf!!!
cough it up will ya already?????
:D-->
Where can this be documented? I am curious to see this.
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Raf
Here's one site.
Here's another. Not a lot of detail here.
Here's a third.
I'd also recommend checking out the amazon.com entry for this book, as people have weighed in on the subject.
I recall reading an old piece of literature...
That's a joke. Actually, I recall reading a NY Times article that went into some detail ont he subject: but it's in the Times archives now and, frankly, I don't feel like spending money to retrieve it.
:)-->
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dougie73
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dougie73
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Grizzy
Thanks Raf,
Seems most people have their mind made up and either *buy* the Thirteenth Tribe as gospel or see it as bunk. Same with the DNA, proof for one side and bunk for the other.
I tend to believe that in this day and age of information we live in and with the very long history of hatred towards the Jews, they would not make such statements that couldn’t be backed up. I did not see any place where scientific evidence disproved what is being said about the DNA.
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Cynic
Oldiesman wrote,
"I would add that another reason why he had these books was religious, wanted us to know or at least be aware that the Jews are not 'God's Chosen People' and that even the Jews must go through Jesus Christ to come to the Father ... "
*****
That the demand of faith in Jesus Christ rests uncompromisingly on Jews, as it does upon all, is known by the testimony of Scripture. It is authoritative to those having a normative view of Scripture on the basis that what is asserted by Scripture is asserted with God's authority.
Whatever Wierwille's motives, the scriptural point that Jews have no exemption from God's demand of faith was neither demonstrated, expounded on, nor advanced by Wierwille's peddling of one-world-government paranoia and pseudo-histories characteristic of Anglo-Israelism and Holocaust revisionism. Whatever Wierwille was promoting by such things is not identifiable with the gospel of Christ.
For something written by a more reflecting German, I recommend:
"A Witness Remembered."
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shazdancer
Back when I read The Thirteenth Tribe, I wondered, so what if they aren't mostly descendants of the original twelve tribes? Aren't proselytes also considered Jews?
Then I heard Wierwille's opinions (back then), of how he thought that "anti-Semitic" was a misnomer, because Jews weren't Semitic, according to him. And I thought, don't we generally assume that by "anti-Semitic" we mean "anti-Jewish?"
And now I have to laugh at the above article quoted by Oldiesman. Wierwille tries to give credibility to "The Myth of the Six Million" by saying it is in some of our libraries. Knowing how some books get INTO our libraries, I hardly think that he had a plausible argument. And yes, a man who sells anti-Jewish literature in his Bible bookstore without debunking that view SHOULD be called "anti-Jewish."
And yeah, Cynic, if the Bible is to be held as God's Word, which is what Wierwille said he believed, then it is the BIBLE that divides people into THREE groups: JEWS, Gentiles, and church of God. It is the BIBLE that expounded upon the advantage of the Jew in the book of Romans. It is the Bible that says "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." And it is the BIBLE that says they that live by the law shall be judged by the law, not judged that they didn't accept Christ.
Okay, back to your regularly-scheduled Patton...
Regards,
Shaz
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imbus
Not to sound redundent... but "For Your Own Good" by Alicwe Miller will substanctiate the Patton syndrome of V.P. Victors mind set for hierarchh was already astablished by the time he was a young adult. The Autocratic teachings that were a part of his germanic up bring played out in his organization.
This book I have mentioned explains Hitler, Weirwill and other individuals who have masterfully manipulated the masses.
Yes, according to this book V.P did fashion TWI and the WC like a militay power house, "spiritually speaking". Gods crack troops. Go figure. Another part of the puzzle put in place.
This is a great day at GS. Thanks
:)-->
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JustThinking
Imbus,
If this was helpful, I'm VERY glad! From the book you mentioned:
"Two passages from Dr. Schreber's advice to parents. writ-ten in 1858 will illustrate the method of raising children prevalent at the time:
"The little ones' displays of temper as indicated by screaming or crying without cause should be regarded as the first test of your spiritual and pedagogical principles . . . Once you have established that nothing is really wrong, that the child is not ill, distressed, or in pain, then you can rest assured that the screaming is nothing more than an outburst of temper, a whim, the first appearance of willfulness. Now you should no longer simply wait for it to pass as you did in the beginning but should proceed in a somewhat more positive way: by quickly diverting its attention, by stern words, threatening gestures, rapping on the bed or if none of this helps. by appropriately mild corporal admonitions repeated persistently at brief intervals until the child quiets down or falls asleep."
"This procedure will be necessary only once or at most, twice, and then you will be master of the child forever. From now on, a glance, a word, a single threatening gesture will be sufficient to control the child. Remember that this will be of the greatest benefit to your child since it will spare him many hours of agitation inimical to his successful growth, freeing him from all those inner torments that can, moreover, very easily lead to a proliferation of pernicious character traits that will become increasingly difficult to conquer. IQuoted in Morton Schatznian, Soul Murder]"
This sounds more like canine obedience school.
JT
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WordWolf
Of course it does.
No surprise to most of us, it's also JUST like what vpw said to do
when training hunting dogs AND CHILDREN.
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imbus
Just thinking,
You got it...Good for you! Awsome Book!
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Mary Cate
TWI was viewed as being anti-Jewish by some outside of TWI. If VPW, the leader of TWI, was so totally clean of being anti-Jewish, how did others outside of TWI get the idea he was himself anti-Jewish and was promoting to others anti-Jewish beliefs?
In about 1981, TAKIT (a TWI band) did a show at a theater in the Twin Cities here in Minnesota. I remember there being quite a few people picketing the building carrying signs about TWI being anti-Jewish. At the time, I had no idea why the picketers would think such a thing, but I wondered.
A couple of years later when I read "13th Tribe", "Myth of the 6M" and heard teachings and comments in the Way Corps, I realized why the picketers were at the theater. Even while still involved with TWI, I had come to realize that TWI was anti-Jewish.
Having been very interested in the Holocaust and Hitler's role in inciting people to murder the Jews, I'd done a lot of reading, had taken a course on Totalitarian governments and written a paper on the subject. This was in high school before I even heard of TWI.
Having seen pictures of emaciated Jews, reading of the horrible things that happened, it didn't matter to me if there were 10 Jews or 6M Jews treated and exterminated that way. VP and TWI lost lots of respect and credibility in my eyes. It was part of my process of getting rid of the rose colored glasses that I had formerly used to view TWI.
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JustThinking
Tom,
Who is Alice Walker?
JT
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Tom Strange
Oops! I don't know...!
:)-->
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shazdancer
Agreed, Mary Cate. What if it was hundreds? Thousands? Is it still horrendous? Of course it is. (But guess what? They've been counting, and it IS millions.)
And what about VPW and LCM and the women they harmed? And the families they broke apart? And the individual lives they destroyed? What if it was only a few people raped? Only a few families cut off from loved ones? Is it still awful? Of course.
But, guess what? we're still counting.
And we don't forget.
Regards,
Shaz
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imbus
Alice Walker is a well known psychiatrist of Germany back in the 80s and wrote this book in german first. The world got a hold of it and since has been translated in English. Her work in the feild of violence is renown. It's worth owning and is a keeper.
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Lifted Up
That 8th corps General Patton was my pre-corps Indy buddy and my lightbearers partner. I remember him well. Dunno where he is today though.
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Grizzy
Hey Lifted,
He did a ho-ho relo or something and stayed with my WOW family in CT, 1979
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Lifted Up
Last time I talked with him, he was supposed to be headed to Torrence CA for his interim year at the same time I went to Philly for 1978-79. When I started my final residence year at HQ I had no idea where he was (except not at HQ) and had too many other things going on (!) to inquire.
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Trefor Heywood
The observation I make about The Thirteenth Tribe was that it was at least original research, not plagiarised as was most of VPWs work.
Koestler never used his conclusions to espouse Holocaust denial, he simply concluded that both the Nazi persecutors and their victims were under a misapprehension as to what anti semitism actually was.
It is a large jump from stating that a large number of modern Jewry were not descended from the twelve tribes to claiming that the mass murders never happened and I am sure that Koestler would have been annoyed to know that his work had been used to justify the theories that VPW propounded as gospel.
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