Since I have never been a "follow the crowd" kind of guy, what was happening in the Limb (Texas, at the time) had no bearing on me leaving. Almost from the very beginning, I never enjoyed being involved in twi. I simply endured it because I allowed them to define for me what my core values were without holding up their teachings and practices up to scrutiny. I will never again allow anyone or anything convince me to check my critical thinking at the door. As soon as Toto tore down the curtain and revealed the Wizard of Oz for who he was, I was out of twi.
I agree with Gandhi who said that "there is no god higher than truth." I am just beginning to come to the place that I fear no truth and I accept truth as truth wherever I happen to find it.
Wordwolf, I am not sure that I have answered all your questions directly but the opinions of others were never a deciding factor in me leaving.
I was on staff at HQ when the lights finally came on for me, so the "limb" thingy never entered into it.
All it took was LoyBoy declaring "You either learn to kiss my a$$ reeeeaaalll good, or get the he11 outta here" (paraphrased). Looking at it in that light, the decision was hardly difficult.
quote: A) If your Limb stayed, and you thought twi was wrong, would you have stayed, or left?
Did this happen in your life?
I would have (and did), leave. There was an active limb at the time (1985), propounding all the "same old propoganda", which did not make one whit of difference to me. If the Root is rotten .....
quote: B) If your Limb left, and you thought twi was right, would you have left, or stayed?
Did this happen in your life?
If I had thought twi to be right, yes -- I would have stayed.
quote: C) Was the opinion of your
Branch/Territory/Limb/Regional coordinator a deciding factor in your decision to leave?
No.
quote: D) Would you still be in today if you had not been kicked out/marked and avoided by them? (If this applies to you.)
No. The M&A happened after I began to ask questions, and I was deemed an "unhealthy leaf". The questions I asked, were because of the inconstancies I saw, and since they were either ignored (or scoffed at), I'd have left anyway. The M&A was just the "icing on the cake". -->
quote: E) Did you attempt to communicate with on-grounds staff before
you decided to leave, or to stay? Did that communication figure into your decision?
No. I might have, yet I was shunned to the point that I was not welcome in twig anymore. Anything I might have tried to say, would have been considered as just "so much heresy". :(-->
So much for the love of God, in the renewed mind, in manifestation, eh? -->
quote:A) If your Limb stayed, and you thought twi was wrong, would you have stayed, or left?
Did this happen in your life?
my limb leader stayed (at least for a while, don't know what happened later) anyway, i left
i loved and love him dearly
as far as branch and twigs and all that, as soon as my limb leader said to keep all the crap in house (as in corps household), i went and told all my fruit ;)--> what was going on....
I was on staff at headquarters from 7/85-8/94 so the state loyalty never played into my decison to leave twi. Like JustThinking, I left when and how I wanted to leave.
THAT SAID, a couple of my jobs on staff at twi were "big picture" jobs, and I KNOW (as in ginosko ;)--> how concerned the trustees were about loosing mass numbers of people because their limb coordinators left.
There were a number of limbs that the twi followers did not even know that their limb guy had left twi and was sending their abs to "some other" leadership than twi and the bot. There was even a limb that the limb guy was saving the abs money and eventually built his own CHURCH building. My best friend was that guy's limb secretary. Those were freaking weird times. Thank GOD, I finally woke up.
VPW died in May of 85, I joined staff in July of 1985 in the switchboard department. I had been at hq from April -August of 1983 as well....in those days, I worked in the Advanced Class department for a friend of yours....you probably don't remember me, but she introduced us....I even visited with you at your home.
Yeah, she is awesome. I will never forget how concerned she was that the corps was so legalistic. She use TO MAKE ME walk on the grass.....and appropriate Mrs O's cushman. She really, really took great care of me.
Oh, how refreshing! I remember being told not to walk on the grass at HQ....I couldn't get it. Wasn't grass meant to be enjoyed and walked on??? Just another one of those stupid @ssed things with twitville.
The other big thing was wearing a coat AND a hat or something covering your head while I was there. I got reproved for running from the OSC to Founders Hall without a coat or hat in October. I told that person that I was a grown adult and could make my own decisions. The fact that I even had to say that was a shame. I heard people even saying that they got a cold because they disobeyed the rule of wearing a hat...... --> Where's the freakin' koolaid??? I guess they were hoarding it at HQ. Donna M. didn't wear a hat because lcm gave her an exemption from it.
I almost want to say, "Does the sun revolve around earth?" and many other QUESTions... too many if, ands, whats, and buts, however, naybe perhaps by chance and all dice involved~~~ fk it i dunno.
Seems we really don't know even though we do... i think~~~
Place your bets~~~ one eyed jacks wild~~~ five card stud~~~
Had to wear a hat at HQ? Did that go for the males as well? I worked on staff at HQ and got reproved for climbing the antenna without a safety belt, and I got reproved for having vibrum soles on my work boots that tracked mud into the BRC, but never for not wearing a hat. Of course, back then I had enough hair that I didn't need one.
Back to the original topic.
I can't even remember who the limb leader was when I left. It might have been Howie Y, but I don't know. In any case, my moment of clarity was when I couldn't get a TWI minister to do my wedding. It was game over.
Now on the other hand, I would have walked through fire for either Del Duncan or Johnny Townsend, but then neither of them were in California when I left.
I left in 87 and was the first one in my branch to walk...I was a twig coordinator at the time and within a couple of weeks, my entire twig walked also. I stood up at the weekly twig coordinator's meeting and told everybody I was quitting and why...the next day I was marked and avoided. That didn't bother me too much because it was like the boss telling you that you're fired AFTER you already quit. ...
I remember at the time, being aware of the fact that I was the first one out of about 60 people (branch) that was walking away...and I felt pretty good about myself because of it. Within a couple of years, the entire state had just about walked away...That was always the thing with me...I always refused, in my mind, to committ unconditionally to twi...even when I was in the corps, I always reserved for myself the right to leave twi anytime I felt it to be appropriate...When I left, I never felt as though I were leaving God...I felt that twi had left God.
I left on my own, but when I was seriously way-brained I would have left if my LC or RC left. I have hated every BC we have had in our area so I would just shown them the door on the way out, but leadership higher than that....sad to say I would have drank the kool-aid.
My leadership had been with twi-ts for a very long time and most people in my area respected them more than the people at hq (those left still do, especially now that Rosie is in charge). All it would take is for this leadership to stand up and tell what they know (they do know a lot!) and most everyone in the region would leave with them.
The only problem is, they're firmly attached to the twi t*ttie and they wouldn't have the glamorous lifestyle they do now if they were to leave. I seriously doubt they could do anything else but manipulate and control people.
We still went to functions....but were basically ignored by twi and the believers when it became clear that we would not be bullied into toeing the line....
At one point our lcs were fired and they were our best friends.....even knowing how dirty the bot ...ha in particular had visciously treated these loooong standing folks.....we were still the sold out doulos types...and stuck with the ministry...
So I`d have to say...no we were not mindless drones to LEAVE the ministry with friends and limbs.....I`d have to say our tenacuty to STAY with the ministry no matter what, branded us as mindless drones....
And though I was as enthusiastic a supporter as ever....it was the ministry who no longer desired our presence when we wouldn`t obey the edict....obediance was required...no matter how supportive you were of the ministry ..it`s beliefs ...etc ...you were not wanted...that is probably the only reason I STILL am not involved....lol
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oenophile
Since I have never been a "follow the crowd" kind of guy, what was happening in the Limb (Texas, at the time) had no bearing on me leaving. Almost from the very beginning, I never enjoyed being involved in twi. I simply endured it because I allowed them to define for me what my core values were without holding up their teachings and practices up to scrutiny. I will never again allow anyone or anything convince me to check my critical thinking at the door. As soon as Toto tore down the curtain and revealed the Wizard of Oz for who he was, I was out of twi.
I agree with Gandhi who said that "there is no god higher than truth." I am just beginning to come to the place that I fear no truth and I accept truth as truth wherever I happen to find it.
Wordwolf, I am not sure that I have answered all your questions directly but the opinions of others were never a deciding factor in me leaving.
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WhiteDove
A. I would have left
Yes I did leave and several limb leaders as well but the Way still has a limb here so in a sence the limb did not leave if that's what you mean..
B. Would have stayed
No this did not
C. No
D. No, but was not M&A until after I chose to leave.
E. Yes I did assuming that by staff you include the BOT.
Yes,somewhat as it confirmed what I had suspected to be true. But I had decided that if it were confirmed that I would be gone already.
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George Aar
I was on staff at HQ when the lights finally came on for me, so the "limb" thingy never entered into it.
All it took was LoyBoy declaring "You either learn to kiss my a$$ reeeeaaalll good, or get the he11 outta here" (paraphrased). Looking at it in that light, the decision was hardly difficult.
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dmiller
I would have (and did), leave. There was an active limb at the time (1985), propounding all the "same old propoganda", which did not make one whit of difference to me. If the Root is rotten .....
If I had thought twi to be right, yes -- I would have stayed.
No.
No. The M&A happened after I began to ask questions, and I was deemed an "unhealthy leaf". The questions I asked, were because of the inconstancies I saw, and since they were either ignored (or scoffed at), I'd have left anyway. The M&A was just the "icing on the cake".
-->
No. I might have, yet I was shunned to the point that I was not welcome in twig anymore. Anything I might have tried to say, would have been considered as just "so much heresy".
:(-->
So much for the love of God, in the renewed mind, in manifestation, eh?
-->
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JustThinking
I left when I wanted, how I wanted and in the manner I chose.
Nobody convinced me to leave or kicked me out. I simply made the call and informed I would not be returning. No drama, no arguments.
The LC, BC, etc. had no bearing on my decision at all.
JT
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excathedra
too many questions
:)-->
my limb leader stayed (at least for a while, don't know what happened later) anyway, i lefti loved and love him dearly
as far as branch and twigs and all that, as soon as my limb leader said to keep all the crap in house (as in corps household), i went and told all my fruit
;)--> what was going on....
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Radar OReilly
I was on staff at headquarters from 7/85-8/94 so the state loyalty never played into my decison to leave twi. Like JustThinking, I left when and how I wanted to leave.
THAT SAID, a couple of my jobs on staff at twi were "big picture" jobs, and I KNOW (as in ginosko
;)--> how concerned the trustees were about loosing mass numbers of people because their limb coordinators left.
There were a number of limbs that the twi followers did not even know that their limb guy had left twi and was sending their abs to "some other" leadership than twi and the bot. There was even a limb that the limb guy was saving the abs money and eventually built his own CHURCH building. My best friend was that guy's limb secretary. Those were freaking weird times. Thank GOD, I finally woke up.
Radar
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excathedra
so radar, when did you join staff in relation to when wierwille died ?
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Radar OReilly
Exxie,
VPW died in May of 85, I joined staff in July of 1985 in the switchboard department. I had been at hq from April -August of 1983 as well....in those days, I worked in the Advanced Class department for a friend of yours....you probably don't remember me, but she introduced us....I even visited with you at your home.
Radar
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excathedra
oh my sweet friend judy (sigh) i miss her
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Radar OReilly
Yeah, she is awesome. I will never forget how concerned she was that the corps was so legalistic. She use TO MAKE ME walk on the grass.....and appropriate Mrs O's cushman. She really, really took great care of me.
ror
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Nottawayfer
Oh, how refreshing! I remember being told not to walk on the grass at HQ....I couldn't get it. Wasn't grass meant to be enjoyed and walked on??? Just another one of those stupid @ssed things with twitville.
The other big thing was wearing a coat AND a hat or something covering your head while I was there. I got reproved for running from the OSC to Founders Hall without a coat or hat in October. I told that person that I was a grown adult and could make my own decisions. The fact that I even had to say that was a shame. I heard people even saying that they got a cold because they disobeyed the rule of wearing a hat......
--> Where's the freakin' koolaid??? I guess they were hoarding it at HQ. Donna M. didn't wear a hat because lcm gave her an exemption from it.
Guess how often I wear a hat now???
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I almost want to say, "Does the sun revolve around earth?" and many other QUESTions... too many if, ands, whats, and buts, however, naybe perhaps by chance and all dice involved~~~ fk it i dunno.
Seems we really don't know even though we do... i think~~~
Place your bets~~~ one eyed jacks wild~~~ five card stud~~~
Edited by oneyedjackswild1 psLink to comment
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Jim
Had to wear a hat at HQ? Did that go for the males as well? I worked on staff at HQ and got reproved for climbing the antenna without a safety belt, and I got reproved for having vibrum soles on my work boots that tracked mud into the BRC, but never for not wearing a hat. Of course, back then I had enough hair that I didn't need one.
Back to the original topic.
I can't even remember who the limb leader was when I left. It might have been Howie Y, but I don't know. In any case, my moment of clarity was when I couldn't get a TWI minister to do my wedding. It was game over.
Now on the other hand, I would have walked through fire for either Del Duncan or Johnny Townsend, but then neither of them were in California when I left.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
"Back to the original topic."
Well, Jim ~~~ that made me chuckle a few laughs...
Song
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WordWolf
I'll answer my own questions, in the interest of disclosure.
A) If your Limb stayed, and you thought twi was wrong, would you
have stayed, or left?
Did this happen in your life?
My position when I "signed on" was that twi was the tops, and if
anyone else outperformed twi, even if twi was not in error, I would
leave. So, if I had needed to leave alone, I would have.
My Limb left en masse in 1989, when lcm demanded an oath of
allegiance.
B) If your Limb left, and you thought twi was right, would you
have left, or stayed?
Did this happen in your life?
If it had happened, I would have stayed.
C) Was the opinion of your Branch/Territory/Limb/Regional
coordinator a deciding factor in your decision to leave?
Hardly. I listened to each and made my own decisions.
D) Would you still be in today if you had not been kicked
out/marked and avoided by them?
(If this applies to you.)
N/A.
E) Did you attempt to communicate with on-grounds staff before
you decided to leave, or to stay?
Did that communication figure into your decision?
I spoke to a lot of people, some on staff, and some just from
different areas, most of them at least semi-loyal to twi.
Their input helped solidify my opinion,
especially the responses I got from the on-site staff and
higher-ups,
which I judged to be error at the time it was spoken.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I left in 87 and was the first one in my branch to walk...I was a twig coordinator at the time and within a couple of weeks, my entire twig walked also. I stood up at the weekly twig coordinator's meeting and told everybody I was quitting and why...the next day I was marked and avoided. That didn't bother me too much because it was like the boss telling you that you're fired AFTER you already quit.
...
I remember at the time, being aware of the fact that I was the first one out of about 60 people (branch) that was walking away...and I felt pretty good about myself because of it. Within a couple of years, the entire state had just about walked away...That was always the thing with me...I always refused, in my mind, to committ unconditionally to twi...even when I was in the corps, I always reserved for myself the right to leave twi anytime I felt it to be appropriate...When I left, I never felt as though I were leaving God...I felt that twi had left God.
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WordWolf
Hm.
Seems a number of people here were NOT mindless
drones who just followed the herd.....
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WordWolf
So...
do ANY posters here remember being "loyal to the Limb" or
anything equivalent?
Did the other posters swim against the stream of exiting
members?
Please don't let me or anyone else make assumptions about
you.....
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Belle
mindless drone here...
-->
I left on my own, but when I was seriously way-brained I would have left if my LC or RC left. I have hated every BC we have had in our area so I would just shown them the door on the way out, but leadership higher than that....sad to say I would have drank the kool-aid.
My leadership had been with twi-ts for a very long time and most people in my area respected them more than the people at hq (those left still do, especially now that Rosie is in charge). All it would take is for this leadership to stand up and tell what they know (they do know a lot!) and most everyone in the region would leave with them.
The only problem is, they're firmly attached to the twi t*ttie and they wouldn't have the glamorous lifestyle they do now if they were to leave. I seriously doubt they could do anything else but manipulate and control people.
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WordWolf
Thanks for chiming in, Belle.
If I can ask one follow-up question...
Around what year did you join twi?
I'm thinking the odds are in favour of that
being in the 1990's or later....
Feel free to confirm that or say I'm wrong.
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rascal
Well...we weren`t mindless drones...we simply refused to write our *loyalty oath* letter.
We still went to functions....but were basically ignored by twi and the believers when it became clear that we would not be bullied into toeing the line....
At one point our lcs were fired and they were our best friends.....even knowing how dirty the bot ...ha in particular had visciously treated these loooong standing folks.....we were still the sold out doulos types...and stuck with the ministry...
So I`d have to say...no we were not mindless drones to LEAVE the ministry with friends and limbs.....I`d have to say our tenacuty to STAY with the ministry no matter what, branded us as mindless drones....
And though I was as enthusiastic a supporter as ever....it was the ministry who no longer desired our presence when we wouldn`t obey the edict....obediance was required...no matter how supportive you were of the ministry ..it`s beliefs ...etc ...you were not wanted...that is probably the only reason I STILL am not involved....lol
I was a koolade drinker to the core.
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Belle
Wordwolf, you can go to the bank with your odds. Would you give me the winning lottery numbers, too?
:D-->
Yeppers, I'm a 90's drone, but no longer.
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