If TWI believes that 'your life is not your own' and that 'you've been bought with a price' means we own you ~ then YES, it would make complete sense that they feel that these other ministries have stolen from their folds.
There was a teaching a long time ago, I think by 'ol Vic himself, that people had free will.
If the people that's still in decide that they want to leave and join another group, whiether god or bad, that's thier decision to do so, NOT TWIt's.
If TWIt's position on the wordwas so fricking good, then the members would be pouring in. Someone on another thread said it so true that VPW knew how to bring in new members and keep the ones that were there 'in the fold'. The current leadership only knows how to ailienate the current members and lose any chances on getting many new people to join.
The classes they (TWIt) has is one of the problem's on getting new people. The new people they DO get after a couple or three sessions see's the new WAP class is nothing but a BIG joke.
To even voice such an accusation as "stealing people" speaks volumes of twi's top echelon. And, to say it in public gives way to a mindset...and an agenda.
I didn't know I was stolen. I flew the friggin' coop!!!
If twitville is interested in getting new people, they should stop putting those damn boring music videos from their Anniversary service on their website. It's a darn shame. They love to sing about how all together they are, but they forget that without God they can't do a damn thing....now that's BELIEVING.....whatever.....
Hmmmm, did the Apostle Paul ever refer to the Gentile Church as his people? Did Moses? I think there was a discussion at one time between Moses and God where to paraphrase it, God said to Moses that they were his people but Moses said no, they're Yours... I'm looking for it but can't put my finger on it right now...
There's several places where the people are referred to as "my people", but God is speaking. They're God's people. I do not think that any person would be qualified to refer to the people under his or her leadership as "my people" knowing that they already are God's... (except Jesus Christ...) It would be interesting to search the phrase "my people" in the Bible and see how it shakes out...
On another thread, a former corps guy stated that twi's BOD is accusing former leaders and offshoot ministries of "stealing people" from them (twi).
Once upon a time (all bed-time stories start that way -eh?) :)--> --- there was this guy named Ted P*trick, and he stole people too, but it was called "deprogramming" back then. He (allegedly) took people by force, as they innocently travelled to twig, or to their parents house to receive the gift of a car, or were en route to some other function, and were rudely awakened to the fact, that they were suddenly in the custody of a man who meant to "steal the Word" from their minds.
I am surprised the "offshoots" (who offer so much more Word than twi does), haven't been accused of "deprogramming" yet, like some were in the old days.
quote: Does twi OWN THE RIGHTS to these people?
Does twi HAVE SOLE OWNERSHIP of these peoples' choices?
Does twi THINK AND SPEAK for these people?
Unfortunately - If you signed the green card, took "da class", spoke in tongues in session 12, and then continued in fellowship with twi (in any capacity), yea -- they considered you (and your money) their property.
Your mind (and mine) were expendable. They have a more difficult time losing the money that can be realized from us. Imho -- that is where the stealing comes in -- regardless of their adamant claims to the contrary. -->
could form a "People's Library", that is, an actual library of people that could be checked out and used as temp members. Sort of a church temp agency for churches! Yeah! That's it.
"Attendance down? Hearing clink instead of swish in your collection plates...? Don't steal...borrow! You need people, we got 'em! Call the People's Library and Temp Services Agency! We can provide you with trained qualified professionals, fully prepared to make your meetings swell! And all for a low monthly fee! And that ain't all...don't take our word for it! Try our October Special...
Check out (2) members on our 99.95 special and get (1) member FREE, any gender, age or core belief structure! Good through 12/31/04 only!
:)-->
I think this is going to be a money maker. Anyone want to get on board, do it now. This could be BIG!
Hmmmm, did the Apostle Paul ever refer to the Gentile Church as his people? Did Moses? I think there was a discussion at one time between Moses and God where to paraphrase it, God said to Moses that they were his people but Moses said no, they're Yours... I'm looking for it but can't put my finger on it right now...
RG, It's Ex. 32:7-14. It's reminiscent of two parents arguing over a misbehaving child. ("Do you know what YOUR son did today?") :)-->
What a great idea. I would enjoy being one of those temps. Count me in.
Problen is most of the groups (not all) want you exclusively and can't stand the idea of non-commitment. I like the idea of roving between the groups who will have me so I can see more old friends. I am one for the fellowship, not so much the "research" or "teachng". Whoever has the best refreshments will probably see me more often too.
And there could be an annual "convention" say... in Vegas. Each group could have their own booth with books and materials, etc. Guest speakers coupld be the reps from the most popular groups, even Rosie. With your past entertainment background you would need to be the MC. You can dream it and gell it since it is your baby.
In the next life I hope I can go anywhere like we were taught. I would spend some time in heaven of course, but will want to vist old friends in hell, purgatory, limbo and the New Earth as well. Probably end up hanging on earth most of the time I bet, maybe the New California with you guys.
The "stealing people" thing was aimed at John Shroyer. I know for a fact that the people he picks up, as well as other off-shoot ministries, have already left the TWI fold. CES may have taken a lot in the beginning but to be honest, these people would not have gone with them unless they were already fed up. There are on some rare occasions where someone comes to pick up a TWI believer that wanted out, drove in to pick them up, the person waiting in the parking lot, and takes luggage with them with others watching. The "rescuer" was ready with a place for the escapee to live and helped them get a job, and also fit them into their favorite fellowship. The favorite pickups were at night in New Knoxville at a designated place. A person on staff would slip out into the night, some packing what they had, others just giving their stuff away to someone else on staff, and head on out past any "patrol" and head on foot into town. It was not that TWI didn't let them go, it was just the case of trying to avoid an emotional scene where the guilt and condemnation is heaved upon that person. I know of only two times this happened, but I am sure GSers out there may have a few more. When they ended up in another ex-way ministry, then the accusations flew.
I know of no "kidnapping" or "stealing" by an ex-twi ministry.
John, I think we can call it "Tampy Bay Area Temp and Window Cleaning". :D-->
Eagle, I have to admit, I joke with little or no actual experience. I am not and have never been a member of any ex-Way churches, societies or organizations, fraternal or otherwise. So I should make clear, if there's stealing going on you couldn't prove it by me.
But I've "heard" of the tensions that go on within some of the groups, which I shall not name because I'm not exactly sure what their names are other than they're headed up and staffed by ex-Wayfers. And the stories are like milder versions of what went on in our Way-years (mine were pre-CraigIsGod years)- pressure to stay, to go, to get involved, to not leave, etc. etc. But without the heavy handed you're-going-to-non-household-he[[ if you do. More of a "this is right for your life at this time, I know it" kind of a limbonic thing, to swipe Excie's reference.
There's a sense I get of - it's like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Lots of the same people manging off each other. I guess it's a natural concern, maybe. If you left the Way or got dumped, or dumped on, or even were a dumper AND a dumpee and you've left, there's places where you can go and maybe get more of what you expected the Way to be and less of what you really got in the end. For me, it's been better to cut that cord. I don't want what I had, in the context of a church or "ministry". I don't need that and would never offer it to someone else. But I guess I can see why some people might. It's a free country. Sort of. It's much easier to have good thoughts about people when there's no coercion and no unrealistic expectations. Except to be a little lovey if at all possible.
Oakspear is right. For those who are still in TWI, just do something which makes them think you are possessed or rebellious, like disagreeing with a teaching.
They will set you out on a curb, no questions asked.
'Stealing people' .........I still find that accusation to be far outside the framework of Christianity, the One Body working together with Christ as the head. Perhaps, because it is.
At best, it sounds like twi's bod is approaching it like a business.....where a competitor moves in and the customers find the products there better. And, this "forces" changes in the old company policy, pricing, and service.
And we all know how twi hates CHANGE. The encrusted policies of the first two mogs are hard to shake.....or rattle.....or roll.
And at worst, twi is raising its head as the cornfield cult that many believe it to be.
They are probably just mad that they can no longer make people's live miserable who leave.
Many years ago when a person was kicked out or left it was very difficult and stressful for them. They were instantly cut off from all their friends and the Word as they knew it. They were no longer welcome. Lots of broken hearts, bitterness, guilt and sleepless nights were the results. All that was possible was the phone (no one would talk much if at all), or letters which were slow and mostly ignored.
In my opinion God used the Internet to bridge that gap and stop the hurt and broken heartedness and to reveal the truth about the darker side of TWI.
Now people could instantly have a place for healing, sharing their hurt, and discussing alternative belief systems, with a choice of other groups they could belong to if they chose, including some awesome mainstream denominations that put TWI to shame.
Today it is all but painless to leave TWI. It is easier than it has even been. In fact once a person leaves they find it is easier to stay in touch and reconnect with wondereful believers and friends from all over the world once again.
While in TWI we were limited to our boring little circle of "Household believers". How shallow!
They are missing out on soooooo much it is indescribable. It reminds me of someone being in a monastery or convent.
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excathedra
"my people" that is quite disturbing
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A la prochaine
Sky,
Touch?
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A la prochaine
Sky,
On second thought...
I can understand TWI's slant on this.
If TWI believes that 'your life is not your own' and that 'you've been bought with a price' means we own you ~ then YES, it would make complete sense that they feel that these other ministries have stolen from their folds.
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danteh1
That's a bunch of BULL crud!!
There was a teaching a long time ago, I think by 'ol Vic himself, that people had free will.
If the people that's still in decide that they want to leave and join another group, whiether god or bad, that's thier decision to do so, NOT TWIt's.
If TWIt's position on the wordwas so fricking good, then the members would be pouring in. Someone on another thread said it so true that VPW knew how to bring in new members and keep the ones that were there 'in the fold'. The current leadership only knows how to ailienate the current members and lose any chances on getting many new people to join.
The classes they (TWIt) has is one of the problem's on getting new people. The new people they DO get after a couple or three sessions see's the new WAP class is nothing but a BIG joke.
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skyrider
To even voice such an accusation as "stealing people" speaks volumes of twi's top echelon. And, to say it in public gives way to a mindset...and an agenda.
People are treated like property, like slaves.
If it quacks like a cult......
skyrider
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socks
"Mah peopuhl..."
Maybe trades-ies. Like a Fall/Winter Special?
"When you buy two people, get a third, of same or lesser value!" (while supplies last!)
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socks
...overheard at the last FCF (Fresh Christian Folks) meeting...
"Nice people you've got here....real nice. Expensive, yes?"
"Thanks. Naw, they were a real steal!"
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excathedra
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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skyrider
Stealing people, really??
Could they be a little more specific?
Could they be a little more honest?
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Nottawayfer
I didn't know I was stolen. I flew the friggin' coop!!!
If twitville is interested in getting new people, they should stop putting those damn boring music videos from their Anniversary service on their website. It's a darn shame. They love to sing about how all together they are, but they forget that without God they can't do a damn thing....now that's BELIEVING.....whatever.....
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Research Geek
Hmmmm, did the Apostle Paul ever refer to the Gentile Church as his people? Did Moses? I think there was a discussion at one time between Moses and God where to paraphrase it, God said to Moses that they were his people but Moses said no, they're Yours... I'm looking for it but can't put my finger on it right now...
There's several places where the people are referred to as "my people", but God is speaking. They're God's people. I do not think that any person would be qualified to refer to the people under his or her leadership as "my people" knowing that they already are God's... (except Jesus Christ...) It would be interesting to search the phrase "my people" in the Bible and see how it shakes out...
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dmiller
Once upon a time (all bed-time stories start that way -eh?)
:)--> --- there was this guy named Ted P*trick, and he stole people too, but it was called "deprogramming" back then. He (allegedly) took people by force, as they innocently travelled to twig, or to their parents house to receive the gift of a car, or were en route to some other function, and were rudely awakened to the fact, that they were suddenly in the custody of a man who meant to "steal the Word" from their minds.
I am surprised the "offshoots" (who offer so much more Word than twi does), haven't been accused of "deprogramming" yet, like some were in the old days.
Unfortunately - If you signed the green card, took "da class", spoke in tongues in session 12, and then continued in fellowship with twi (in any capacity), yea -- they considered you (and your money) their property.
Your mind (and mine) were expendable. They have a more difficult time losing the money that can be realized from us. Imho -- that is where the stealing comes in -- regardless of their adamant claims to the contrary.
-->
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socks
Here's a solution - maybe some of the ex-Wayfers
could form a "People's Library", that is, an actual library of people that could be checked out and used as temp members. Sort of a church temp agency for churches! Yeah! That's it.
"Attendance down? Hearing clink instead of swish in your collection plates...? Don't steal...borrow! You need people, we got 'em! Call the People's Library and Temp Services Agency! We can provide you with trained qualified professionals, fully prepared to make your meetings swell! And all for a low monthly fee! And that ain't all...don't take our word for it! Try our October Special...
Check out (2) members on our 99.95 special and get (1) member FREE, any gender, age or core belief structure! Good through 12/31/04 only!
I think this is going to be a money maker. Anyone want to get on board, do it now. This could be BIG!
"don't steal...borrow...TODAY!"
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GeorgeStGeorge
RG, It's Ex. 32:7-14. It's reminiscent of two parents arguing over a misbehaving child. ("Do you know what YOUR son did today?")
:)-->
George
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igotout
What a great idea. I would enjoy being one of those temps. Count me in.
Problen is most of the groups (not all) want you exclusively and can't stand the idea of non-commitment. I like the idea of roving between the groups who will have me so I can see more old friends. I am one for the fellowship, not so much the "research" or "teachng". Whoever has the best refreshments will probably see me more often too.
And there could be an annual "convention" say... in Vegas. Each group could have their own booth with books and materials, etc. Guest speakers coupld be the reps from the most popular groups, even Rosie. With your past entertainment background you would need to be the MC. You can dream it and gell it since it is your baby.
In the next life I hope I can go anywhere like we were taught. I would spend some time in heaven of course, but will want to vist old friends in hell, purgatory, limbo and the New Earth as well. Probably end up hanging on earth most of the time I bet, maybe the New California with you guys.
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excathedra
i heard limbo closed down but you can't believe everything you hear
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Eagle
The "stealing people" thing was aimed at John Shroyer. I know for a fact that the people he picks up, as well as other off-shoot ministries, have already left the TWI fold. CES may have taken a lot in the beginning but to be honest, these people would not have gone with them unless they were already fed up. There are on some rare occasions where someone comes to pick up a TWI believer that wanted out, drove in to pick them up, the person waiting in the parking lot, and takes luggage with them with others watching. The "rescuer" was ready with a place for the escapee to live and helped them get a job, and also fit them into their favorite fellowship. The favorite pickups were at night in New Knoxville at a designated place. A person on staff would slip out into the night, some packing what they had, others just giving their stuff away to someone else on staff, and head on out past any "patrol" and head on foot into town. It was not that TWI didn't let them go, it was just the case of trying to avoid an emotional scene where the guilt and condemnation is heaved upon that person. I know of only two times this happened, but I am sure GSers out there may have a few more. When they ended up in another ex-way ministry, then the accusations flew.
I know of no "kidnapping" or "stealing" by an ex-twi ministry.
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socks
John, I think we can call it "Tampy Bay Area Temp and Window Cleaning".
:D-->
Eagle, I have to admit, I joke with little or no actual experience. I am not and have never been a member of any ex-Way churches, societies or organizations, fraternal or otherwise. So I should make clear, if there's stealing going on you couldn't prove it by me.
But I've "heard" of the tensions that go on within some of the groups, which I shall not name because I'm not exactly sure what their names are other than they're headed up and staffed by ex-Wayfers. And the stories are like milder versions of what went on in our Way-years (mine were pre-CraigIsGod years)- pressure to stay, to go, to get involved, to not leave, etc. etc. But without the heavy handed you're-going-to-non-household-he[[ if you do. More of a "this is right for your life at this time, I know it" kind of a limbonic thing, to swipe Excie's reference.
There's a sense I get of - it's like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Lots of the same people manging off each other. I guess it's a natural concern, maybe. If you left the Way or got dumped, or dumped on, or even were a dumper AND a dumpee and you've left, there's places where you can go and maybe get more of what you expected the Way to be and less of what you really got in the end. For me, it's been better to cut that cord. I don't want what I had, in the context of a church or "ministry". I don't need that and would never offer it to someone else. But I guess I can see why some people might. It's a free country. Sort of. It's much easier to have good thoughts about people when there's no coercion and no unrealistic expectations. Except to be a little lovey if at all possible.
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excathedra
i want to be a little lovey
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dmiller
I took a voyage on the Titanic.
I told em I didn't have no money, I'll do some work for ya.
They made me string chairs.
-->
I don't get no respect!
Rodney Dangerfield
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Oakspear
No one stole me...TWI set me out on the curb.
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Eagle
Oakspear is right. For those who are still in TWI, just do something which makes them think you are possessed or rebellious, like disagreeing with a teaching.
They will set you out on a curb, no questions asked.
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skyrider
'Stealing people' .........I still find that accusation to be far outside the framework of Christianity, the One Body working together with Christ as the head. Perhaps, because it is.
At best, it sounds like twi's bod is approaching it like a business.....where a competitor moves in and the customers find the products there better. And, this "forces" changes in the old company policy, pricing, and service.
And we all know how twi hates CHANGE. The encrusted policies of the first two mogs are hard to shake.....or rattle.....or roll.
And at worst, twi is raising its head as the cornfield cult that many believe it to be.
skyrider
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igotout
They are probably just mad that they can no longer make people's live miserable who leave.
Many years ago when a person was kicked out or left it was very difficult and stressful for them. They were instantly cut off from all their friends and the Word as they knew it. They were no longer welcome. Lots of broken hearts, bitterness, guilt and sleepless nights were the results. All that was possible was the phone (no one would talk much if at all), or letters which were slow and mostly ignored.
In my opinion God used the Internet to bridge that gap and stop the hurt and broken heartedness and to reveal the truth about the darker side of TWI.
Now people could instantly have a place for healing, sharing their hurt, and discussing alternative belief systems, with a choice of other groups they could belong to if they chose, including some awesome mainstream denominations that put TWI to shame.
Today it is all but painless to leave TWI. It is easier than it has even been. In fact once a person leaves they find it is easier to stay in touch and reconnect with wondereful believers and friends from all over the world once again.
While in TWI we were limited to our boring little circle of "Household believers". How shallow!
They are missing out on soooooo much it is indescribable. It reminds me of someone being in a monastery or convent.
John Richeson
Tampa Bay, Florida
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