And, Mrs. Wierwille was very gracious in giving her account of twi's history.....her account is very detailed and VERY DIFFERENT from vpw's bravado in pfal.
In pfal, we heard vpw boast about "God giving him revelation "like it had NEVER BEEN KNOWN since the first centry".....and then, we clearly see in Leonard's work and Bullinger's written work that this information was already known!!!
Many godly men had access to THIS KNOWLEDGE.
When I look at Mrs. Wierwille's book and compare it with vpw's arrogance in pfal, I'm left to ponder the question....
Somebody's got to be a liar!:D-->
And, I'll stand by Mrs. Wierwille's account. ;)-->
Twi was always adamant about not letting others teach the "class", they HAD to hear it from the great Dr...Often times grads were "reproved" for trying to share too much of the class with new folks...tell them to "wait for the class" was always the response. Wierwille claimed that he was "teaching people who would be able to teach others", but in practice, Wierwille was only teaching people to herd them into the taped classes. New grads were usually made to feel inferior when it came to communicating the "class material" to others.
I find it ironic that Wierwille had sat through Leonards class and within 7 months was not only teaching it himself, but had revised it so that others would think it was his work...Isn't it curious how Wierwille refused people the same opprotunity that he had? Perhaps he was afraid that someone would "revise it" for themselves and cut him out of the profits? He set up safeguards to stop anyone from doing what he himself had done.
What do you think of this?...IF I had taken pfal for the first time, and then 7 months later I was teaching my own class called "Power for Godly Living"...I simply "rearranged" a few things, put it in a book, registered a copywrite, and then claimed that God had taught me the word as it had not been known since Jesus himself walked the earth. I start charging money for it and am soon filthy rich. Of course, my conscience would never allow me to do such a thing, and I am guessing that the same is true for most of the GSers...How LOW, to steal another man's work, put your own name on it and then make money off of the process...How LOW!!!...
...But yet, this is EXACTLY what Victor Paul Wierdwille did!...and on top of all that, he then abused the "authority" he had manufactured for himself by sexually exploiting young girls and lording over his followers...tell me again oldies, how much you admire this man.
quote:I find it ironic that Wierwille had sat through Leonards class and within 7 months was not only teaching it himself, but had revised it so that others would think it was his work...
UncleHairy.....from what I've read in Mrs. W's book, this October 1953 class was NOT revised. As documented on page 100 (noted above), students who sat thru Leonard's class prior to this were considered graduates.
Plus, in this "first pfal class" ...Mrs. W's specifically states that vpw had NO charts, NO syllabus, NO materials to hand out. Why??????? He cut all ties with Leonard, stole Leonard's work, and within three short months, vpw was "on his own" and lovin it.
Mrs. Wierwille's book chronicles THIS!
And......its information like this that drives TWI nuts! That's why I seriously doubt that there will be a Volume 2 in this series.
The myth of vpw's "supreme mog status" is debunked in Mrs. Wierwille's book.
Granted, years later.....the 1967 pfal class was revised.
BUT THEN.....lots of Bullinger's work show up here!!
To me, the more I unravel all the chest-thumping, high-struttin, pride-boasting claims of "wierwille's walk with God" in pfal....the more I categorize them in what was typically known in the 1800's as folklore, or yarns.
With each passing year and unwritten accounts, these yarns grew exponentially. Paul Bunyan and his ox......remember them?
But Mrs. Wierwille's book puts to rest those types of claims that go unchallenged....and the myths that spread.
A side note: before the film class in '67, and to a lesser extent, after '67, many people taught Piffle. Mine was taught by Fugit. Later when he discovered Donnie had taped it, he demanded the tapes be burned.
Interesting Mrs. W's account. It squares with what I know from my BG Leonard association.
quote:Interesting Mrs. W's account. It squares with what I know from my BG Leonard association.
Evan, in Mrs. W's account......she details the fact that when vpw phoned BG Leonard in March 1953, BG told vp NOT to come to Calgary. Vp went anyways and BG confronted him at the door.
Mrs. W's account details nothing further. Obviously, vp was able to stick around and sit thru BG's class.
Belle, Mrs. W's account doesn't elucidate on BG not wanting vp there at this time. I speculate....an educated guess in looking at BG's integrity, class format and standards....that vpw was not registered for BG's class and refusal by BG was warranted.
After all, from BG's perspective......a stranger, a guy from Ohio phones at the last minute and wants to fly up there and plop himself into a chair?? BG, the teacher, was simply exercising his authority.
That's the way I see it. I certainly don't read into this situation anymore than that......otherwise, I think BG would have sent wierwille packin' the minute he arrived in Calgary.
I liked the PFAL class. I liked it that Dr. Wierwille put all of these different pieces of Biblical information together from these different sources.
I was glad to learn that I was saved by grace and not by works. I was glad to have been taught that the Word of God is the Will of God. I was glad to learn that I was born again of incorruptible seed, and that by the works of the Law no flesh is justified, and that there is a major difference between the age of the Law and the age of Grace. "To whom it is written" is a fantastic principle for understanding the Bible. I was glad to learn of four crucified, and the scripture build up principle to see this relatively unknown fact within the gospels. I was glad to learn that "the hour cometh and now is that the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24), that is speaking in tongues.
I was happy to learn about the absense of puncuation in the scriptures, which sheds incredible light on verses such as "verily I say unto you today that shalt be with me in Paradise", and "we ceased (quit) saying the will of the Lord be done", as Paul bull headedly charged off to Jerusalem against the will of God, and then we see the historical downfall of the First Century Church. I have actually heard television preachers teach that "God will put you in bad situations as he did to Paul by telling him to go to Jerusalem" in order to make excuses for why so and so got sick, in a car wreck or died of cancer or whatever. And on and on.
People may say, and maybe some of you people will say; "yeah, but you could have read that for yourself, or, you could have gone and read Bullinger or BG Leonard for yourself, but ya know what? I was just a kid and I'd never heard of those guys and was not likely to! I was just a kid who prayed and whom shortly after that met a WOW who got me into the class. And it didn't hurt me, it helped me in a time of serious trouble. So I am glad that VP Wierwille was ther with that class.
Now, people have said to me not to be a "wussie" here at the GS (thank you Rascal), and so I won't be. I liked the class a lot, but now I suppose some will not like me saying that. Whatever. Others here claim to have been sexually molested. I never saw anything like it. But, from what I have read, these things must have happened, and VPW will have to stand before God some day for having done this and leading his leaders into the same practices and hurting more people. I am sorry for you all who were hurt in this way and I will pray for you so you won't feel bad about it so much anymore. It must be very hard for you I do not doubt.
But I think that he (VPW) started out wanting to help people and fell into great temptation, lost sight of his goal, and people got hurt in the process. But I do not think that the class itself was put together as "bait" as some people seem to think, in order to "get money and sex".
Irregardless of the sin that happened in The Way Ministry, I think that there are still valuable truths in PFAL that we can and should utilize when going to God and the Bible for spiritual guidance.
But of coarse I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this, for as we say here in America, "It's a free country". I just wanted you to know of my opinion. :)-->
Goodness (((Frankee))) I believe that I might have been mistaken when I intimated that you were anything of the sort....Lol I LIKE a guy with guts, not to mention a good sense of humor:-)
Ask Raf, he and I can disagree vehemently at times, and yet I still maintain the utmost respect for him and his pov....so post away, your perspective is welcome and important here....never be shy about posting because of what others might/will think... I am not. (though there are those that wish I were lol:-)
"I liked the PFAL class. I liked it that Dr. Wierwille put all of these different pieces of Biblical information together from these different sources."
I do too.
"I was glad to learn ... I was glad to have been taught ... I was glad to learn ... I was glad to learn ... I was glad to learn ... I was happy to learn ..."
I was also glad, as was many many others.
"I was just a kid who prayed and whom shortly after that met a ... who got me into the class. And it didn't hurt me, it helped me in a time of serious trouble. So I am glad that VP Wierwille was ther[sic] with that class."
Kind of makes it difficult to say honestly that God was not a part of what happened to us. Your phrase for how you came to be envolved with TWI also describes me as well.
"... I liked the class a lot ..."
I still do.
"... I am sorry for you all who were hurt ... and I will pray for you ..."
All we can do is pray, but then for many of us prayer does help.
"I think that there are still valuable truths in PFAL that we can and should utilize when going to God and the Bible for spiritual guidance."
I agree it is still filled with powerful truths, which in part is why we still run PFAL classes.
Relax, among the people who post on GS are many who relive their anger at TWI, but there are many others who largely stay away from GS, who still hold dear the truths we learned in PFAL and who still walk in Love as we study from the Word of God.
"Wierwille had sat through Leonards class and within 7 months was not only teaching it himself, but had revised it so that others would think it was his work..."
"from what I've read in Mrs. W's book, this October 1953 class was NOT revised. As documented on page 100 (noted above), students who sat thru Leonard's class prior to this were considered _graduates_."
Yes. Leonard's Class is significantly longer than VPW's.
Knowing people who have gone through both classes, it is commonly stated that VPW's is not really 'edited' or 'revised' so much as shortenes. I hve not gone through Leonard's class myself, though we do fellowship with couples who certainly have attended it.
"And......its information like this that drives TWI nuts!"
Why? because there are other beleivers out among the masses?
In pfal, Dr. Higgins was highlighted as being very instrumental in wierwille's ministry. It's easy for me to recall her contribution to vpw's work.
Was B.G. Leonard given credit for his monumental impact?....I don't recall it. Was he even mentioned at all? Could it be that Wierwille fell silent to obscure the obvious?
I know Bullinger was noted.....and remember seeing his Companion Bible opened to the appendix with the four crosses. Plus, Bullinger's work on Figures of Speech and Numbers in Scripture and Witness of the Stars could hardly be sidestepped. I believe Wierwille even further challenged the students that one could spend a lifetime of study in any of these works.
quote:Relax, among the people who post on GS are many who relive their anger at TWI, but there are many others who largely stay away from GS, who still hold dear the truths we learned in PFAL and who still walk in Love as we study from the Word of God.
:-)
who said that, galen ? i think i resent that. being honest and trying to figure out your past, in many cases the majority of your life, is not reliving anger. and i think people here walk in Love bigtime. if it wasn't for this place, i might be really over the edge. thank god for the love and honesty.
i may have misunderstood. but i just wanted to get that off my chest.
quote: i think i resent that. being honest and trying to figure out your past, in many cases the majority of your life, is not reliving anger. and i think people here walk in Love bigtime.
excathedra, the way I look at it is this public forum internet-thingy is challenging......no face-to-face contact, out of context statements, millions of angles and viewpoints and all.
I sometimes think that twi (and maybe everywhere) we tend to look at statements as all-black or all-white, no shades inbetween. Take this thread for example.....Mrs. Wierwille's book is VASTLY different in my opinion of anything I was taught in twi classes, in the corps. She actually COLORS IN THE BACKGROUND of twi history and I find that very interesting.
With hundreds and hundreds of posters, and thousands of variables....I take others' viewpoints in stride. Age, background, major twi involvement, very little twi commitment, abuse, confrontations, education.......all of these alter opinions on this public forum.
I think it has very little to do with anger....for the most part. And, even though this is an anti-way site....I find lots of posts that are "fair and balanced."
Contrary to what some might say, time after time again posters come forward to say, "hold fast to the good and shun the evil." I agree. Some though, have seen a disportionate share of evil from twi policies and leadership.
I realize that you were hurt, as were many others. As Frankee knows as well.
But that has nothing to do with PFAL, or the healing and miracles that happened and still can happen when beleivers come together.
Here on GS, it becomes easy to fall into the idea that every Ex-Way Follower is against PFAL.
Sure I still have some anger. Toward my God? No. Toward the Bible? No. Toward leaders who knew better but let power go to their heads and become nazis with it? Well maybe.
I never saw anyone hurt by the Board of Trustees. I never saw anyone hurt by the 'big name' clergy. I never sucked up to them, thus I never met them. I dont doubt that the higher leadership became abusive, from what I saw of how abusive most corspe-nazis were. So I well imagine that every story of abuse is real. But that has little to do with the topic of what beleivers can do, when they stand together of the Bible.
quote:I never saw anyone hurt by the Board of Trustees. I never saw anyone hurt by the 'big name' clergy. I never sucked up to them, thus I never met them. I dont doubt that the higher leadership became abusive, from what I saw of how abusive most corspe-nazis were. So I well imagine that every story of abuse is real. But that has little to do with the topic of what beleivers can do, when they stand together of the Bible.
Galen, so you "never saw" hurt from trustees.....but you "saw how abusive corspe-nazis were."
Who was accountable for twi policies, procedures, corps training, etc.....?
Why were corps allowed to be "corspe-nazis? and remain corps?
Maybe....just maybe, these dots need to be connected back to their source??
Maybe....at the first sight of evil (corps-nazism, included) we all should have fled!
Why did vpw leave his church background if "believers can stand together on the bible?"
Why did Dr. Higgins NOT continue following vpw's ministry?
Why did Peter J. Wadx, who helped assist in pfal '68, leave and go to Australia?
Sometimes, it seems....."standing together on the bible" implies doing nothing! Not advancing forward....not working together, not moving in unison. Some like to stay uncommitted and yet, claim they are committed and standing.
Even the Book of Acts vividly illustrates the continuous ebb and flow of believers "standing together." At times, the disagreement between the Apostle Paul and another leader strongly influenced the other believers. Different challenges everywhere......in Corinth, Galatia, Alexandria, Phillipi, Ephesus, Thessalonica, etc.
Clearly, even the seven church epistles document the challenges of "standing together in the grace wherein we were called." Communication and like-mindedness was challenging back then....and still is. :)-->
Nobody likes LONG posts....so we over-simplify. :D-->
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oldiesman
I never got a copy of "Born Again to Serve". Sounds like a good historical book.
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skyrider
Yes, Oldies.....it came out in 1996.
And, Mrs. Wierwille was very gracious in giving her account of twi's history.....her account is very detailed and VERY DIFFERENT from vpw's bravado in pfal.
In pfal, we heard vpw boast about "God giving him revelation "like it had NEVER BEEN KNOWN since the first centry".....and then, we clearly see in Leonard's work and Bullinger's written work that this information was already known!!!
Many godly men had access to THIS KNOWLEDGE.
When I look at Mrs. Wierwille's book and compare it with vpw's arrogance in pfal, I'm left to ponder the question....
Somebody's got to be a liar!
:D-->
And, I'll stand by Mrs. Wierwille's account.
;)-->
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TheInvisibleDan
Where is Dr.Higgins now, I wonder?
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GrouchoMarxJr
Another thought...
Twi was always adamant about not letting others teach the "class", they HAD to hear it from the great Dr...Often times grads were "reproved" for trying to share too much of the class with new folks...tell them to "wait for the class" was always the response. Wierwille claimed that he was "teaching people who would be able to teach others", but in practice, Wierwille was only teaching people to herd them into the taped classes. New grads were usually made to feel inferior when it came to communicating the "class material" to others.
I find it ironic that Wierwille had sat through Leonards class and within 7 months was not only teaching it himself, but had revised it so that others would think it was his work...Isn't it curious how Wierwille refused people the same opprotunity that he had? Perhaps he was afraid that someone would "revise it" for themselves and cut him out of the profits? He set up safeguards to stop anyone from doing what he himself had done.
What do you think of this?...IF I had taken pfal for the first time, and then 7 months later I was teaching my own class called "Power for Godly Living"...I simply "rearranged" a few things, put it in a book, registered a copywrite, and then claimed that God had taught me the word as it had not been known since Jesus himself walked the earth. I start charging money for it and am soon filthy rich. Of course, my conscience would never allow me to do such a thing, and I am guessing that the same is true for most of the GSers...How LOW, to steal another man's work, put your own name on it and then make money off of the process...How LOW!!!...
...But yet, this is EXACTLY what Victor Paul Wierdwille did!...and on top of all that, he then abused the "authority" he had manufactured for himself by sexually exploiting young girls and lording over his followers...tell me again oldies, how much you admire this man.
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excathedra
yeah that really stinks
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skyrider
UncleHairy.....from what I've read in Mrs. W's book, this October 1953 class was NOT revised. As documented on page 100 (noted above), students who sat thru Leonard's class prior to this were considered graduates.
Plus, in this "first pfal class" ...Mrs. W's specifically states that vpw had NO charts, NO syllabus, NO materials to hand out. Why??????? He cut all ties with Leonard, stole Leonard's work, and within three short months, vpw was "on his own" and lovin it.
Mrs. Wierwille's book chronicles THIS!
And......its information like this that drives TWI nuts! That's why I seriously doubt that there will be a Volume 2 in this series.
The myth of vpw's "supreme mog status" is debunked in Mrs. Wierwille's book.
Thank you Mrs. Wierwille.
:)-->
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skyrider
Granted, years later.....the 1967 pfal class was revised.
BUT THEN.....lots of Bullinger's work show up here!!
To me, the more I unravel all the chest-thumping, high-struttin, pride-boasting claims of "wierwille's walk with God" in pfal....the more I categorize them in what was typically known in the 1800's as folklore, or yarns.
With each passing year and unwritten accounts, these yarns grew exponentially. Paul Bunyan and his ox......remember them?
But Mrs. Wierwille's book puts to rest those types of claims that go unchallenged....and the myths that spread.
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TheEvan
A side note: before the film class in '67, and to a lesser extent, after '67, many people taught Piffle. Mine was taught by Fugit. Later when he discovered Donnie had taped it, he demanded the tapes be burned.
Interesting Mrs. W's account. It squares with what I know from my BG Leonard association.
"In the mouth of two or three witnesses..."
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skyrider
Evan, in Mrs. W's account......she details the fact that when vpw phoned BG Leonard in March 1953, BG told vp NOT to come to Calgary. Vp went anyways and BG confronted him at the door.
Mrs. W's account details nothing further. Obviously, vp was able to stick around and sit thru BG's class.
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Belle
Why did BG not want vee pee up there? Do you think he had met vee pee and already knew what a grifter he was?
OR Maybe BG just had an in depth spiritual awareness that vee pee was really a wolf in sheep's clothing.
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skyrider
Belle, Mrs. W's account doesn't elucidate on BG not wanting vp there at this time. I speculate....an educated guess in looking at BG's integrity, class format and standards....that vpw was not registered for BG's class and refusal by BG was warranted.
After all, from BG's perspective......a stranger, a guy from Ohio phones at the last minute and wants to fly up there and plop himself into a chair?? BG, the teacher, was simply exercising his authority.
That's the way I see it. I certainly don't read into this situation anymore than that......otherwise, I think BG would have sent wierwille packin' the minute he arrived in Calgary.
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Frankee
Well,
I liked the PFAL class. I liked it that Dr. Wierwille put all of these different pieces of Biblical information together from these different sources.
I was glad to learn that I was saved by grace and not by works. I was glad to have been taught that the Word of God is the Will of God. I was glad to learn that I was born again of incorruptible seed, and that by the works of the Law no flesh is justified, and that there is a major difference between the age of the Law and the age of Grace. "To whom it is written" is a fantastic principle for understanding the Bible. I was glad to learn of four crucified, and the scripture build up principle to see this relatively unknown fact within the gospels. I was glad to learn that "the hour cometh and now is that the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24), that is speaking in tongues.
I was happy to learn about the absense of puncuation in the scriptures, which sheds incredible light on verses such as "verily I say unto you today that shalt be with me in Paradise", and "we ceased (quit) saying the will of the Lord be done", as Paul bull headedly charged off to Jerusalem against the will of God, and then we see the historical downfall of the First Century Church. I have actually heard television preachers teach that "God will put you in bad situations as he did to Paul by telling him to go to Jerusalem" in order to make excuses for why so and so got sick, in a car wreck or died of cancer or whatever. And on and on.
People may say, and maybe some of you people will say; "yeah, but you could have read that for yourself, or, you could have gone and read Bullinger or BG Leonard for yourself, but ya know what? I was just a kid and I'd never heard of those guys and was not likely to! I was just a kid who prayed and whom shortly after that met a WOW who got me into the class. And it didn't hurt me, it helped me in a time of serious trouble. So I am glad that VP Wierwille was ther with that class.
Now, people have said to me not to be a "wussie" here at the GS (thank you Rascal), and so I won't be. I liked the class a lot, but now I suppose some will not like me saying that. Whatever. Others here claim to have been sexually molested. I never saw anything like it. But, from what I have read, these things must have happened, and VPW will have to stand before God some day for having done this and leading his leaders into the same practices and hurting more people. I am sorry for you all who were hurt in this way and I will pray for you so you won't feel bad about it so much anymore. It must be very hard for you I do not doubt.
But I think that he (VPW) started out wanting to help people and fell into great temptation, lost sight of his goal, and people got hurt in the process. But I do not think that the class itself was put together as "bait" as some people seem to think, in order to "get money and sex".
Irregardless of the sin that happened in The Way Ministry, I think that there are still valuable truths in PFAL that we can and should utilize when going to God and the Bible for spiritual guidance.
But of coarse I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this, for as we say here in America, "It's a free country". I just wanted you to know of my opinion.
:)-->
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Steve!
Frankee - Mike will agree with you more than wholeheartedly!
When I first took piffle, I liked many parts of it too.
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Raf
Well said, Frankee. I believe you speak for more people than you realize.
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rascal
Goodness (((Frankee))) I believe that I might have been mistaken when I intimated that you were anything of the sort....Lol I LIKE a guy with guts, not to mention a good sense of humor:-)
Ask Raf, he and I can disagree vehemently at times, and yet I still maintain the utmost respect for him and his pov....so post away, your perspective is welcome and important here....never be shy about posting because of what others might/will think... I am not. (though there are those that wish I were lol:-)
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Raf
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Galen
Frankee:
"I liked the PFAL class. I liked it that Dr. Wierwille put all of these different pieces of Biblical information together from these different sources."
I do too.
"I was glad to learn ... I was glad to have been taught ... I was glad to learn ... I was glad to learn ... I was glad to learn ... I was happy to learn ..."
I was also glad, as was many many others.
"I was just a kid who prayed and whom shortly after that met a ... who got me into the class. And it didn't hurt me, it helped me in a time of serious trouble. So I am glad that VP Wierwille was ther[sic] with that class."
Kind of makes it difficult to say honestly that God was not a part of what happened to us. Your phrase for how you came to be envolved with TWI also describes me as well.
"... I liked the class a lot ..."
I still do.
"... I am sorry for you all who were hurt ... and I will pray for you ..."
All we can do is pray, but then for many of us prayer does help.
"I think that there are still valuable truths in PFAL that we can and should utilize when going to God and the Bible for spiritual guidance."
I agree it is still filled with powerful truths, which in part is why we still run PFAL classes.
Relax, among the people who post on GS are many who relive their anger at TWI, but there are many others who largely stay away from GS, who still hold dear the truths we learned in PFAL and who still walk in Love as we study from the Word of God.
:-)
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Galen
skyrider:
"Wierwille had sat through Leonards class and within 7 months was not only teaching it himself, but had revised it so that others would think it was his work..."
"from what I've read in Mrs. W's book, this October 1953 class was NOT revised. As documented on page 100 (noted above), students who sat thru Leonard's class prior to this were considered _graduates_."
Yes. Leonard's Class is significantly longer than VPW's.
Knowing people who have gone through both classes, it is commonly stated that VPW's is not really 'edited' or 'revised' so much as shortenes. I hve not gone through Leonard's class myself, though we do fellowship with couples who certainly have attended it.
"And......its information like this that drives TWI nuts!"
Why? because there are other beleivers out among the masses?
:-)
.
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skyrider
In pfal, Dr. Higgins was highlighted as being very instrumental in wierwille's ministry. It's easy for me to recall her contribution to vpw's work.
Was B.G. Leonard given credit for his monumental impact?....I don't recall it. Was he even mentioned at all? Could it be that Wierwille fell silent to obscure the obvious?
I know Bullinger was noted.....and remember seeing his Companion Bible opened to the appendix with the four crosses. Plus, Bullinger's work on Figures of Speech and Numbers in Scripture and Witness of the Stars could hardly be sidestepped. I believe Wierwille even further challenged the students that one could spend a lifetime of study in any of these works.
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excathedra
i may have misunderstood. but i just wanted to get that off my chest.
thank you
frankee and galen
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rascal
Sure looks like the back of his hand to me..... and this from one who`s still *walking in love* no less ;-) lol
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skyrider
excathedra, the way I look at it is this public forum internet-thingy is challenging......no face-to-face contact, out of context statements, millions of angles and viewpoints and all.
I sometimes think that twi (and maybe everywhere) we tend to look at statements as all-black or all-white, no shades inbetween. Take this thread for example.....Mrs. Wierwille's book is VASTLY different in my opinion of anything I was taught in twi classes, in the corps. She actually COLORS IN THE BACKGROUND of twi history and I find that very interesting.
With hundreds and hundreds of posters, and thousands of variables....I take others' viewpoints in stride. Age, background, major twi involvement, very little twi commitment, abuse, confrontations, education.......all of these alter opinions on this public forum.
I think it has very little to do with anger....for the most part. And, even though this is an anti-way site....I find lots of posts that are "fair and balanced."
Contrary to what some might say, time after time again posters come forward to say, "hold fast to the good and shun the evil." I agree. Some though, have seen a disportionate share of evil from twi policies and leadership.
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Galen
Excath-
I mean no insult to you.
I realize that you were hurt, as were many others. As Frankee knows as well.
But that has nothing to do with PFAL, or the healing and miracles that happened and still can happen when beleivers come together.
Here on GS, it becomes easy to fall into the idea that every Ex-Way Follower is against PFAL.
Sure I still have some anger. Toward my God? No. Toward the Bible? No. Toward leaders who knew better but let power go to their heads and become nazis with it? Well maybe.
I never saw anyone hurt by the Board of Trustees. I never saw anyone hurt by the 'big name' clergy. I never sucked up to them, thus I never met them. I dont doubt that the higher leadership became abusive, from what I saw of how abusive most corspe-nazis were. So I well imagine that every story of abuse is real. But that has little to do with the topic of what beleivers can do, when they stand together of the Bible.
:-)
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skyrider
Galen, so you "never saw" hurt from trustees.....but you "saw how abusive corspe-nazis were."
Who was accountable for twi policies, procedures, corps training, etc.....?
Why were corps allowed to be "corspe-nazis? and remain corps?
Maybe....just maybe, these dots need to be connected back to their source??
Maybe....at the first sight of evil (corps-nazism, included) we all should have fled!
Why did vpw leave his church background if "believers can stand together on the bible?"
Why did Dr. Higgins NOT continue following vpw's ministry?
Why did Peter J. Wadx, who helped assist in pfal '68, leave and go to Australia?
Sometimes, it seems....."standing together on the bible" implies doing nothing! Not advancing forward....not working together, not moving in unison. Some like to stay uncommitted and yet, claim they are committed and standing.
Even the Book of Acts vividly illustrates the continuous ebb and flow of believers "standing together." At times, the disagreement between the Apostle Paul and another leader strongly influenced the other believers. Different challenges everywhere......in Corinth, Galatia, Alexandria, Phillipi, Ephesus, Thessalonica, etc.
Clearly, even the seven church epistles document the challenges of "standing together in the grace wherein we were called." Communication and like-mindedness was challenging back then....and still is.
:)-->
Nobody likes LONG posts....so we over-simplify.
:D-->
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