Karl's book is great...some folks got upset reading it...I thought it was one of the funniest books that I've ever read...belly laughed through much of it.
My memories are the same as Karl's book...I recall vividly when he pulled this stunt. He saw himself as the Martin Luther of his time... :D--> :D--> :D--> :D--> :D-->. What level of insecurity can drive a man to "see himself" that way? Vic wanted SO BADLY to be important...he wanted to be recognized and admired...he craved it...he lived for it...and then he would act so "humble"...OH PLEEEEZE! The guy was so transparent that you could read a newspaper through him...I MUST have been brainwashed!
quote: Vic wanted SO BADLY to be important...he wanted to be recognized and admired...he craved it...he lived for it...and then he would act so "humble"...OH PLEEEEZE!
I heard almost the exact words from a woman who worked for him a lot of years.
Below are comments relevant to this topic that I have posted before several times over the years (and at WayDale). As I say in the beginning, it is amazing how much this question or issue is posed. For those who have read it before and do not want to hear it again, I apologize. The main reason I am posting it again is for what the NT says about how wrong behavior and wrong teaching are often caused by and/or reinforced by each other.
******************************
Perhaps it is because that new people are joining this forum, but it never ceases to surprise me how often this question comes up here at GreaseSpot. Below is something that I have posted at least on three other occasions, so I apologize if this is something you have read before. However, I think it deserves repeating.
In so far as the NT is concerned, neither VPW or LCM should be considered as good teachers. In fact, they would necessarily be described as false teachers. False behavior (and encouraging others to behave in an immoral manner) was one of the criteria the NT speaks about for being categorized as a false teacher. Both VPW and LCM stand guilty of both false teachings and corrupted behavior. In addition, both of these men directly opposed good theology and used their alternate teachings to justify their behavior and encourage others to follow (the sexual deviations of VPW serving as an example for LCM is but one single example). The justification for this can be found in 2 and 3 John. There, John points out an important connection between truth and love that is often overlooked. To illustrate this, I would give 2 & 3 John a thorough reading. Note how many times that the word “truth” comes from John’s pen. In addition, “truth” is united with “love.” We often think (and rightly so) that the NT commands us to “walk in love” (which is a metaphor for a godly lifestyle). Yet, John also admonishes us to “walk in truth” (2 John 4, 3 John 3, 4). The way in which John connects walking in truth and love reveals that one cannot be done without them also doing the other. In other words, if you are not walking in the truth you cannot walk in love, and if you are not walking in love you cannot walk in the truth. Certainly, VPW was not walking in love. So, my question is, why are so many so willing to accept that he was walking in truth? I think this is one of the most important questions a person who still follows VPW teachings should honestly ask themselves.
At the risk of delving into another topic, let me also state that the Christian Church has always considered theology not to just what we know about God, but the means by which we come to know God in a personal way. I am sure you can understand the significance of this difference. By denying much of Christian truth and teaching others to do the same (often with venomous scorn) they cut themselves off from the spiritual understandings that would allow them to experience the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. In this way, both of them created a “theology” [sic] which allowed them to fulfill their own illicit goals and desires. And such "theologies" always are parasitic - i.e., they always have to feed on others because their source is not infinite, eternal and holy. This is why those of you involved in TWI were used and abused as a result of VPW and his teachings.
True teaching is not facts about the Bible, but true teaching is always that which leads to a deeper understanding of God, which is the way in which we come to know Him. VPW did not teach this – he didn’t even teach correct facts about Scripture. As a result he, LCM and many others spiritually and physically victimized many in TWI.
Many over the years (here, WayDale and CES Forum) many have suggested that VPW and LCM had to later rely on authoritarian measures in order to maintain control of TWI. This, some might claim, suggests that both began with good intentions and that the original teachings of TWI are to be kept and followed. Unfortunately, given what is known about both of their lives and teachings (which will always reflect one another), it is hard to make the case that they began with pure desires and motivations. If only 1/3 of what we have learned about them from WayDale, GreaseSpot and other independent sources (that is, independent of TWI) is true, I would contend that a case is near impossible to make.
The history of TWI, which is based on the teachings of VPW, demand that the answer to our question is that TWI started out corrupt and overtime this became more evident. However, it seems clear that the chief desire of VPW's heart was to be honored and adored by people. He long believed that he was, for whatever reason, a special and unique teacher. When his own denomination failed to recognize him as such, he left and TWI was born (only to be given that name later). This, coupled with him giving into his appetite for physical pleasure (sex, bikes, motor coaches, houses, planes, etc.), lead him on a path of personal and spiritual destruction that ended up taking a lot of others along for the ride. LCM and VPW share the same faults. The difference is that LCM's faults are harder to hide. He also desires the power and pleasure that sex and money provide, but the ways in which he goes about getting them are much easily identified as morally corrupt. The surrounding themselves with “yes men” is a symptom of the spiritual weakness and sickness they both had, and, of course, was necessary to maintain the TWI facade.
Both VPW and LCM are weak willed and lack the spiritual formation that would suggest that they should be regarded as "men of God" in any sense of the term. Ultimately, VPW could not find what he wanted through the traditional church so he started his own. LCM, on the other hand, found just what he wanted in TWI and never left – until forced out by a power struggle.
To be honest, LCM and others were fed a counterfeit of Christianity from the beginning. I seriously doubt VPW was truly interested in anything beyond getting glory for himself (even though he may have convinced himself otherwise). And he may even have successfully deceived himself that he was being a true servant of God. This does not, however, distort the fact that his god was his belly and that he served Mammon rather than the Living God. This is not only possible, but sadly, this is not an isolated story.
So, was LCM a victim? Technically, yes. However, chwester is right when he wrote that LCM is completely responsible for his actions. I find it difficult to believe that if LCM was truly interested in living a holy life that, once he understood the nuts and bolts of VPW and TWI, he would have hung around.
The history of cults and false teachers shows that this sort of thing happens all the time. I rejoice, however, that some on this board are intellectually and spiritually able to ask such questions. And I pray that many more of you are open to the answer. If anyone wishes to discuss this further, I welcome any personal e-mail.
"True teaching is not facts about the Bible, but true teaching is always that which leads to a deeper understanding of God, which is the way in which we come to know Him."
It's taken some of us longer than others to work through some of this stuff and come to that conclusion that they were false teachers and to see the connection between the wrong teaching and the wrong behavior.
quote:Certainly, VPW was not walking in love. So, my question is, why are so many so willing to accept that he was walking in truth? I think this is one of the most important questions a person who still follows VPW teachings should honestly ask themselves.
Mr. Reed, perhaps you were with VPW 24 hrs. a day, 7 days a week, to make the outrageous claim "certainly VPW was not walking in love"? That seems to be the basis of your spin, along with focusing only on Wierwille's sins, like some of our Greasespot brethren. And you so conveniently omit the fact that VPW taught the bible for 40 years, and THAT blessed lots of folks, thousands as a matter of fact, many of who are still fellowshipping in the offshoot ministries; many of who still appreciate PFAL, and lots of other great teachings.
There were times he was walking in love, and truth. And your spin is flawed and biased, because you so conveniently fail to mention or even consider those times and events.
quote:By denying much of Christian truth and teaching others to do the same (often with venomous scorn) they cut themselves off from the spiritual understandings that would allow them to experience the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives.
Denying much of Christian truth?
May I ask, what much Christian truth would that be that was denied, Mr. Reed?
It was of monumental importance that I finally realised that God was not the one that was false.....rather the leaders/men...and as a result of their falseness...the doctrine that they had taught as God`s standard that failed. ...it wasn`t GOD who had betrayed my trust...it wasn`t me who wasn`t somehow measuring up spiritually ....
Once this was understood, it opened the door to attempt to regain the trust/reconcilliation for/with God ... to reestablish communication....to begin afresh my journey towards healing.
Say, oldiesman, when I pointed out that Wierwille lied in PFAL about the content of Romans 9:4, didn't you choose to believe he did it out of incompetence rather than dishonesty?
How can you be so sure he lied? Maybe there's a reason why, other than deception?
As I mentioned, it also could have been something as innocent as the "all without exception" or "all without distinction" oversight.
Why does everything about Wierwille have to be evil?
I think it's only about evil in those minds who choose to harbor those thoughts continuously. When in doubt, think evil. When in doubt, blame the trustees.
Steve, I am anti-Wierwille as any here (to which oldies would surely attest), but you cannot know that VP "lied" about Romans 9:4.
Obviously, he was in error.
I tend to think he mangled & squeezed it to make it "fit" into his already hopelessly wrong system of beliefs concerning "administrations".
Hi D.A.!
Oldies, I think D.A.'s point stands and to me it is incontrovertible. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Herbert Armstrong, Jim Jones ALL "taught lots of Bible", yet the Bible clearly disqualifies EACH of them from being considered a man of God. I won't argue the fact that what Wierwille taught was "truth". It was not. But let's say it was. His manner of life, public ministry, and attitude toward other Christians disqualifies him.
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Raf
I just happened to be going over Karl's book the last few nights.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Karl's book is great...some folks got upset reading it...I thought it was one of the funniest books that I've ever read...belly laughed through much of it.
My memories are the same as Karl's book...I recall vividly when he pulled this stunt. He saw himself as the Martin Luther of his time...
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->. What level of insecurity can drive a man to "see himself" that way? Vic wanted SO BADLY to be important...he wanted to be recognized and admired...he craved it...he lived for it...and then he would act so "humble"...OH PLEEEEZE! The guy was so transparent that you could read a newspaper through him...I MUST have been brainwashed!
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Nottawayfer
I heard almost the exact words from a woman who worked for him a lot of years.
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D.A.Reed
Greetings!
Below are comments relevant to this topic that I have posted before several times over the years (and at WayDale). As I say in the beginning, it is amazing how much this question or issue is posed. For those who have read it before and do not want to hear it again, I apologize. The main reason I am posting it again is for what the NT says about how wrong behavior and wrong teaching are often caused by and/or reinforced by each other.
******************************
Perhaps it is because that new people are joining this forum, but it never ceases to surprise me how often this question comes up here at GreaseSpot. Below is something that I have posted at least on three other occasions, so I apologize if this is something you have read before. However, I think it deserves repeating.
In so far as the NT is concerned, neither VPW or LCM should be considered as good teachers. In fact, they would necessarily be described as false teachers. False behavior (and encouraging others to behave in an immoral manner) was one of the criteria the NT speaks about for being categorized as a false teacher. Both VPW and LCM stand guilty of both false teachings and corrupted behavior. In addition, both of these men directly opposed good theology and used their alternate teachings to justify their behavior and encourage others to follow (the sexual deviations of VPW serving as an example for LCM is but one single example). The justification for this can be found in 2 and 3 John. There, John points out an important connection between truth and love that is often overlooked. To illustrate this, I would give 2 & 3 John a thorough reading. Note how many times that the word “truth” comes from John’s pen. In addition, “truth” is united with “love.” We often think (and rightly so) that the NT commands us to “walk in love” (which is a metaphor for a godly lifestyle). Yet, John also admonishes us to “walk in truth” (2 John 4, 3 John 3, 4). The way in which John connects walking in truth and love reveals that one cannot be done without them also doing the other. In other words, if you are not walking in the truth you cannot walk in love, and if you are not walking in love you cannot walk in the truth. Certainly, VPW was not walking in love. So, my question is, why are so many so willing to accept that he was walking in truth? I think this is one of the most important questions a person who still follows VPW teachings should honestly ask themselves.
At the risk of delving into another topic, let me also state that the Christian Church has always considered theology not to just what we know about God, but the means by which we come to know God in a personal way. I am sure you can understand the significance of this difference. By denying much of Christian truth and teaching others to do the same (often with venomous scorn) they cut themselves off from the spiritual understandings that would allow them to experience the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. In this way, both of them created a “theology” [sic] which allowed them to fulfill their own illicit goals and desires. And such "theologies" always are parasitic - i.e., they always have to feed on others because their source is not infinite, eternal and holy. This is why those of you involved in TWI were used and abused as a result of VPW and his teachings.
True teaching is not facts about the Bible, but true teaching is always that which leads to a deeper understanding of God, which is the way in which we come to know Him. VPW did not teach this – he didn’t even teach correct facts about Scripture. As a result he, LCM and many others spiritually and physically victimized many in TWI.
Many over the years (here, WayDale and CES Forum) many have suggested that VPW and LCM had to later rely on authoritarian measures in order to maintain control of TWI. This, some might claim, suggests that both began with good intentions and that the original teachings of TWI are to be kept and followed. Unfortunately, given what is known about both of their lives and teachings (which will always reflect one another), it is hard to make the case that they began with pure desires and motivations. If only 1/3 of what we have learned about them from WayDale, GreaseSpot and other independent sources (that is, independent of TWI) is true, I would contend that a case is near impossible to make.
The history of TWI, which is based on the teachings of VPW, demand that the answer to our question is that TWI started out corrupt and overtime this became more evident. However, it seems clear that the chief desire of VPW's heart was to be honored and adored by people. He long believed that he was, for whatever reason, a special and unique teacher. When his own denomination failed to recognize him as such, he left and TWI was born (only to be given that name later). This, coupled with him giving into his appetite for physical pleasure (sex, bikes, motor coaches, houses, planes, etc.), lead him on a path of personal and spiritual destruction that ended up taking a lot of others along for the ride. LCM and VPW share the same faults. The difference is that LCM's faults are harder to hide. He also desires the power and pleasure that sex and money provide, but the ways in which he goes about getting them are much easily identified as morally corrupt. The surrounding themselves with “yes men” is a symptom of the spiritual weakness and sickness they both had, and, of course, was necessary to maintain the TWI facade.
Both VPW and LCM are weak willed and lack the spiritual formation that would suggest that they should be regarded as "men of God" in any sense of the term. Ultimately, VPW could not find what he wanted through the traditional church so he started his own. LCM, on the other hand, found just what he wanted in TWI and never left – until forced out by a power struggle.
To be honest, LCM and others were fed a counterfeit of Christianity from the beginning. I seriously doubt VPW was truly interested in anything beyond getting glory for himself (even though he may have convinced himself otherwise). And he may even have successfully deceived himself that he was being a true servant of God. This does not, however, distort the fact that his god was his belly and that he served Mammon rather than the Living God. This is not only possible, but sadly, this is not an isolated story.
So, was LCM a victim? Technically, yes. However, chwester is right when he wrote that LCM is completely responsible for his actions. I find it difficult to believe that if LCM was truly interested in living a holy life that, once he understood the nuts and bolts of VPW and TWI, he would have hung around.
The history of cults and false teachers shows that this sort of thing happens all the time. I rejoice, however, that some on this board are intellectually and spiritually able to ask such questions. And I pray that many more of you are open to the answer. If anyone wishes to discuss this further, I welcome any personal e-mail.
*****************************
Grace and peace,
- David
Colossians 1:13-14
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jardinero
Hi David:
Thanks for re-posting that.
"True teaching is not facts about the Bible, but true teaching is always that which leads to a deeper understanding of God, which is the way in which we come to know Him."
It's taken some of us longer than others to work through some of this stuff and come to that conclusion that they were false teachers and to see the connection between the wrong teaching and the wrong behavior.
Nice to see you again
:)-->
J.
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Raf
Reed is the only guy I know who has been posting for YEARS and still has "Discoverer" as his karma.
He's the anti-excy.
:)-->
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oldiesman
There were times he was walking in love, and truth. And your spin is flawed and biased, because you so conveniently fail to mention or even consider those times and events.
Denying much of Christian truth?May I ask, what much Christian truth would that be that was denied, Mr. Reed?
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rascal
Precisely David, great points.
It was of monumental importance that I finally realised that God was not the one that was false.....rather the leaders/men...and as a result of their falseness...the doctrine that they had taught as God`s standard that failed. ...it wasn`t GOD who had betrayed my trust...it wasn`t me who wasn`t somehow measuring up spiritually ....
Once this was understood, it opened the door to attempt to regain the trust/reconcilliation for/with God ... to reestablish communication....to begin afresh my journey towards healing.
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excathedra
i caught that anti thingy raf
:)--> 
;)--> 
:)-->
david saved my heart when i thought i didnt have one..... thank you david
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Steve Lortz
Say, oldiesman, when I pointed out that Wierwille lied in PFAL about the content of Romans 9:4, didn't you choose to believe he did it out of incompetence rather than dishonesty?
Why would you do that, oldies?
Love,
Steve
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oldiesman
How can you be so sure he lied? Maybe there's a reason why, other than deception?
As I mentioned, it also could have been something as innocent as the "all without exception" or "all without distinction" oversight.
Why does everything about Wierwille have to be evil?
I think it's only about evil in those minds who choose to harbor those thoughts continuously. When in doubt, think evil. When in doubt, blame the trustees.
Love,
oldiesman
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rascal
Well oldies, it is darn hard NOT to speak evil when describing the acts of evil individuals.
I suppose if the individuals in question had lived the Godly lifestyle of men of the spirit....we would be discussing *Godly* things....
To bad vp and his buds didn`t behave in a manner that would inspire *positive* remarks.....truly sad....their fault however, not ours.
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TheEvan
Steve, I am anti-Wierwille as any here (to which oldies would surely attest), but you cannot know that VP "lied" about Romans 9:4.
Obviously, he was in error.
I tend to think he mangled & squeezed it to make it "fit" into his already hopelessly wrong system of beliefs concerning "administrations".
Hi D.A.!
Oldies, I think D.A.'s point stands and to me it is incontrovertible. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Herbert Armstrong, Jim Jones ALL "taught lots of Bible", yet the Bible clearly disqualifies EACH of them from being considered a man of God. I won't argue the fact that what Wierwille taught was "truth". It was not. But let's say it was. His manner of life, public ministry, and attitude toward other Christians disqualifies him.
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Oakspear
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excathedra
EXACTLY !!!!!!
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