I'm glad that some people had great experiences while they were involved. I really enjoy hearing about them, too.
I do think God moved in TWI in the early years and that many people were touched and healed and found peace in their lives. I don't think he moved in the leaders, it was the "little ones" / "lesser vessels" / "foolish things" / "weak things" who were doing all the work. They were the ones God was able to work with because of their pure hearts. When the black-hearted people started pushing them away that's when the people being affected by the evil began to multiply.
quote:
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
At the time I made the best decisions I could to do what I believed was right at the time. I could spend the rest of my life as my own armchair quarterback but what would I gain from it? I am who I am today - warts and all - from my experieneces.
You didn't ask if it was "painless" - only if it was worth it. (Some people confuse the two.)
The other way I look at it is that I never would have met hubby or have the family I have today if we both hadn't been a part of TWI. We met after we had both left - not while we were in. Odd, but works for us (as we are the origional ODD COUPLE!)
Oakspear, if you or anyone were in twi for years and years and now say you've nothing of value from the experience, why should anyone think anything but that you have you yourself to blame for wasting your own time and money?
Maybe after the first six month or year, you would have figured out that maybe this wasn't for you?
What's your point Oldies? That I really received "something of value", but have talked myself out of it? Can you clarify please? I'll continue as if that was your point, correct me later if needed.
And by the way, the question being asked is not whether there was or wasn't anything beneficial about being involved in TWI, but whether it was worth it in light of negatives associated with it.
I got involved in TWI because PFAL seemed like a cool bible class. I was interested in the bible, wanted to know more about it. I believed that it was truth back then, I longer believe that it is. Therefore any perceived benefits (to me) based on my opinion that PFAL was teaching truth are now null and void in my opinion.
I liked many of the people who I encountered in TWI, but fellowshipping with loving, like-minded people was an experience that pre-dated my TWI involvement, and continues to this day.
I learned a lot of things while in TWI, but I don't believe that any of them were unique to TWI, nor do I believe that I would have never learned them without my TWI involvement.
There were good times, good people and some learning while I was involved in TWI, none of it was worth the crap I went through later, and certainly not worth it in light of the other abuses that took place.
I don't regret my heart's intentions, or my desire to pursue after God. That IS why I was involved with twi. I made a bad choice and joined the ranks of the glassy eyed brigade, I was a mark for a grifter. I met some great people and had some good times...BUT, that happened in spite of twi, not because of it.
Was it worth it?...Hell no. I would have met some great people and had some good times in any number of different scenarios, I didn't need to "experience" the holy grifter and his nazi waycorp "training". I sure didn't need twi to learn the bible, they got it mostly wrong anyway. Was it worth it?...That's sorta like the question, "Besides the other thing that happened, Mrs. Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?"
Was it worth it? In thinking through this question, I have to truly determine if twi was able to do things for me that other christian organizations weren't able to do. No it wasn't.
So was it worth it? Absolutely not. I would have saved myself a lot of garbage in my life had I never taken pfal. Do I regret it? Absolutely not. It was learning that benefitted my life. I am not talking about the learning of the Bible, but the learning the detriment of being so black and white in my thinking, of thinking I was so superior because I had the truth, of thinking there was no other place like twi, of blindly following for so many years, and of course, being blind to what was going on behind the scenes.
Where I am today is great for me. Some people have a bumpier road than others, but when they finally get to the good spot in their lives, they really appreciate it.
What's your point Oldies? That I really received "something of value", but have talked myself out of it? Can you clarify please? I'll continue as if that was your point, correct me later if needed.
Yes Oakspear that's pretty much the way I see it.
I have a theory, perhaps correct but only you and others can tell me. Because you (and others) have been hurt and betrayed by twi, you don't want to even remember those spiritual blessings and all. Might equate to something similar to a marriage that once was a blessing, then sours, then ends in an angry bitter divorce where you just hate your former spouse. Your mind isn't on the marriage you had that was a blessing and all, your mind is on the what a creep your spouse is and you hate their guts. The "good" is meaningless since that's dead and buried in one's mind and all that's left is the evil and you're comfortable thinking that way, you're so sure that's the right way to think.
It's a shame because I truly believe that those godly things of twi were blessings from God but because of the evil works of some, those blessings were supplanted by the evil works. It's nothing new, it's been happening and still happens when humans screw up and don't live up to the way we know we should.
Most folks don't think of themselves as evil, but my guess is that someone else in the world does, whether justified or not -- all depends on what went down somewhere along the line to sour that relationship.
I don't know Oldies.. maybe its not a bad thing to just toss it all, at least for me. I tossed everything- not literally- I still have the materials and stuff, just refuse to even examine them, at this stage.
When I found out what ole Vic and Loy were really up to, I tossed everything. No kidding- all the keys to the word's interpretation, manifestations, views about other religions and beliefs, HATRED for Catholics and others- even the vocabulary. I cringed when I heard somebody say "bless you". Now, I find myself SLOWLY picking SOME of the stuff back up, on my terms.
I am of of the opinion that if doc had stuff right, it was IN SPITE of himself.
In a way, I say, trash their names. Go right ahead.. anything good that people got out of it will still float. In a funny way, this kind of thing actually helped me when I was reading some of the posts on WayDale and early Greasespot. I was still of the mind that somehow they had some kind of control over me, and that they could invoke some kind of curse or something.
Those who gave us all of those wonderful "goodies" were the same people who claimed to have power over our flesh, to be able to deliver you to devils if you didn't walk right. And you know what happens then, you're a "greasespot" by midnight.
It was actually refreshing to see somebody curse the daylights out of those bastards and live to tell about it, and actually still prosper. Got me to think a little.
I read the stuff for a LONG time before I dared to post my experiences.
Sure, I may have gotten some good out of it, but the price was WAY too high. The cost way too great. Even ONE case of rape is too high of a price to pay for my salvation.
I'm not saying that I didn't encounter "blessings" when in TWI, spiritual or otherwise. What I'm saying that in light of trhe evil that I encountered, and the further evil experienced by folks here at GS who I have gotten to know, it wasn't worth it.
Am I saying that the evil erases the good? Nope. Just that I view it as sort of a balance. There was good, there was evil, there was stuff that was neither, it was just there. When I look at the good that I experienced, and balance it against the evil, the good stuff just wasn't that good. The evil side of the balance was heavier than the good side.
A lot of the "good" that I experienced was related to my relationships with people in my fellowships. But do I have to see my marriage and family torn apart, be subject to screaming matches and other humiliation in order to have "sweet fellowship"...any reasonable person would say "no".
The same with a knowledge of the bible, and of God. Receiving "Keys to the Word's Interpretation" can be done without being abused.
Part of where I disagree with some folks (maybe you included) is that I no longer view the bible as THE Word of God, so PFAL as a class to lead me to a greater understanding of the bible doesn't stack up for me.
As I said earlier, this discussion wasn't initially about whether there was any good in TWI, or whether folks stayed in due to their own decisions, but about whether the good was worth it in light of the evil.
By the way, just so you're clear:
I believe that there was good in TWI, mostly because of the rank and file, but good nontheless, although it was progressively swamped by ego and abuse.
I don't think that PFAL was all bad, although it was run through with errors, contradictions and doctrines that were abused.
I don't believe that I was forced to remain in at any point, but that I was threatened and deceived. I stayed in past the point where I was getting anything out of it because I thought that I had a chance to save my marriage. I do believe that TWI leaders, including Wierwille, are culpable for their deceit, and for hurting many people. They abused the position of trust that they had.
Thanks, GrouchoJr. That absolutely said it for me. I was not especially abused by TWI in the manner that some were.
But knowing that my participation helped keep an organization going, so that it could hurt so many so grievously, made any fun times or Biblical knowledge not worth the price.
My whole entire family was involved with TWI, and there is no doubt that our involvement changed the course of our lives forevermore.
I guess my opinion is, it's an unfair question. Out lives are what they are, for better or worse. We made choices, and now we live with the consequences. Who can know if "it was worth it?"
No trick question ex 10th. It is a question with much deeper implications for me....
I gotta figure out where was God in all of this?
How COULD God supposedly lead us there if it was too be to the destruction of some?
I know that some of you didn`t suffer too badly personally, the thing is ...some folks feel they prospered ....some people were destroyed....
How can we say that it was God who led us there? It then means that the same God guided folks folks their unto their destruction and even death.
My question is deeper than simply *was it worth it* to you personally, I am adressing a deeper inquirey of *could there really be a God who gives a damn if, twi and the resulting destruction from affiliation is the result of following where he led???
Did God guide some of us?
Can we count on a God who would guide us to twi?
Did Satan decieve all of us?
Are neither God nor Satan involved we were just plain stupid in our choices in life?
Well.. for me, I'm still somewhat confused also. Doesn't make sense, may never make sense- I may never know- and that is OK with me.
At least I exited with part of my sanity, heh heh.
I think the Lord was telling a lot of us to abandon that cesspool long before we did. Just wasn't an option, at least in my mind at the time..
But you still can't blame the victim, call them weak, or stupid, or etc. My bible says we are supposed to SUPPORT (hold up) the weak, not give them the screwing of a lifetime. I too can be weak at times.
I know people that "grabbed the goods" and booked out of that place like there was no tomorrow.. now it makes sense. But then, we were told that they were just nuts or something.
I remember times when five or six alarms were going off in my head and I just thought I was nuts. "Just renew your mind, it'll be OK..."
Through all the confusion, I still can't blame God for all the junk, all the abuse, nor the person that received it.
Kind of like the surgeon, "well, we cut off the wrong leg. But its your fault! You shouldn't have had another stinking possessed leg to jump in the way..."
The only thing that makes sense to me in all this, at least at this time, if God led somebody there for something, it was to get it, not to stop and sit around the joint, but just get the hell out, not even to look back.
It was and is our own deep desire to help people. Selfless motives are godly.
To know the unknown God. The drive and passion within. To corner it, channel it in a direction that will get us answers so we could give.
As satori said on another thread "hard wired into us". But it takes a back seat to freedom of choice. Figuring it out does make it interesting.
Sometimes our choices are right, sometimes they are wrong. For each one of us. Regardless, we are where we are today, and can be thankful for and have regrets about the past.
Nevertheless we must move on. Can't change it. Such is life.
Was it worth it? Yes and no. Some of it was. Some of it was not.
For some I wish they would have never heard of twi.
Not to belittle anyone's horrible experiences there.
I know it takes some doing-not belittling that either.
i'll add this from shazdancers thread
on "getting over it...not"
"Trauma survivors can benefit from treating themselves gently, doing what they need to do to keep themselves safe, and letting the emotional ups and downs of recovery happen as they happen.... With effort, healing does occur, and one can move beyond the abuse."
Were the percieved benefits that we recieved from our association with vp and his ministry truly worth it ...knowing now how others endured viscious treatment at the hands of vp and the other leaders of twi?
Rascal, great thread, BTW. I spent 19 years living a lie. I am truly disgusted that I stayed that long. I continue to be horrified with the things that I have read and continue to read via GS.
IMHO, NO, it was not worth it.
I am a Christian, and was one before piffle. I was raised in a Christian home. I could have gotten by in life JUST FINE, thank you very much, w/o 4 crucified, JCING, etc. I do not know what to believe about any of it, and frankly, I dont care. Jesus died on that cross for my salvation, and whether there were 2 others or 4 others, does not negate my salvation. :)-->
I go to church now and sometimes when I hear verses that I heard a million times over and over and over, I cringe, but just for a moment, and I remind myself that this is a whole new world and life.
I do not speak in tongues now because I dont care if it is perfect prayer or not. I pray to God with my understanding and I figure that He knows everything anything, so what difference does it make?
You know, the thing that made me afraid to question VP was his statement in piffle regarding: this has to fit like a hand in a glove or the WHOLE BIBLE would fall apart. My gosh, I didnt want the whole Bible to fall apart, so I CANT question him......... -->
*Jesus died on that cross for my salvation, and whether there were 2 others or 4 others, it does not negate my salvation*
So true act2 ..I think that the ONLY reason that this and the other so called *great truths* we learned in twi had such great significance is because we wre TOLD they were such a big ol hairy deal.....
We were so busy thinking we were special because we knew these supposed *deeper truths* in the bible, we completely ignored what was truly important....
The following is the best explanation I've heard as to why God allows evil to happen:
quote:
In the beginning in Genesis chapter 1 and 2 Adam had the dominion over all of God's creation. We read it. Now, God had given to man, Adam, this dominion. God had conferred the right of rulership, dominion, authority and power over all of God's creation to Adam. Every
part of it had been given to Adam. All the kingdoms, all the power, all the glory was given to Adam in Genesis chapters 1 and 2 when he had dominion over all of God's creation. God conferred this upon Adam.
And Adam had freedom of will. He was a man of body and soul. He had freedom of will. He was a man of body, soul and spirit before he
sinned. And in the body and soul category having freedom of will he could choose whether to utilize this which God had conferred upon him or what to do with it, he had the right. He was legally within bounds, he was perhaps, I know, morally wrong, but he was legally right. Because here if I gave this to you, this pointer, then you would have a legal
right to hit somebody over the head with it if you wanted to or you could use it to point out things on a chart board for which it is
primarily designed.
Well now this is exactly how Satan got it "for it is delivered unto me." Well who had it? Adam did. Well how in the world is he going to
get it? Only one way he could get it and the Word says, "delivered." That word "delivered" is semantically accurate and fits like a hand in a glove. That which God had conferred upon Adam, man, Adam took and he transferred over to Satan and Satan is God's archenemy that's why it is high treason.
Take like our nation. Let's say that I was given the deepest secrets of something of our nation. Now if I would take those great
secrets of our nation and transfer them to the archenemy of the United States of America what would it be called in legal terms? It would be
high treason, nothing but high treason. That's right.
And when man, when Adam, transferred to satan that which God had conferred upon him that was the original sin in manifestation. Because
that gives Satan, who is the god of this world. He is this god of this world and I want you to turn to II Corinthians. Acts, Romans, Corinthians and II Corinthians chapter 4 listen to this in verse 4:
II Corinthians 4:4:
In whom the god of this world [the god of this world]...
Well, bless your heart, who is the god of this world? I thought in Genesis chapters 1 and 2 that the prince or the god of this world was
Adam. That's what it said. He had dominion, authority and power over everything. Yet here in II Corinthians it talks about the god of this world being Satan. Well he is! He is the god of this world, listen:
II Corinthians 4:4:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded [has blinded] the minds of them which believe not [who do not believe], lest the light of the
glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them [and they'd get born-again of God's spirit].
Who is the god of this world? The Bible says it is Satan. So there are two Gods, right. One is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
Christ; the other god is the god of this world, Satan. So you have two Gods.
A man comes to me and he says, "well I believe in God." That doesn't shake me any. I say to him, "which one?" And he says to me, "well there is only one." I say, "that's not what the Word says." The Word says, "there are two Gods. One is the God and Father of our Lord
Jesus Christ the other god is the god of this world who is Satan." Two Gods.
And Satan has a lot of power. He has the rulership, the dominion, the authority, the power over all of God's creation that originally Adam had because Adam transferred that which God had conferred upon him.
This is why whenever old Satan wants to burn out a territory he burns it out. When he wants to kill off people he kills them off. He has all the power, the dominion, the authority, he has all the kingdoms of this world it says. And, ladies and gentlemen, I didn't write the book but that's what I believe, that's what the Word says and that is the truth. And this cooberates experiences that men and women have had through the centuries and even have today.
You see this explains how Satan got all this power. This explains how he is able to do all of this and how he is able to kill off
everybody. Listen to Ephesians chapter 6 listen to this in verse 12:
Ephesians 6:12:
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world [the rulers of the darkness of this world], against spiritual wickedness in high places [the text reads "from on high"].
You see our battle is not with flesh and blood it just looks like it. It looks like V.P. is fighting so-and-so and so on. That man
fighting that man. It isn't true. It is always a spiritual fight, it is devil spirits causing people to do just that. "We wrestle not
against flesh and blood but against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world." Well who are the rulers of the darkness of this world? Top man, top spirit is Satan and underneath him is like a kingdom all the way down the line. They are the ones in control of this world.
The following is the best explanation I've heard as to why God allows evil to happen:
You see our battle is not with flesh and blood it just looks like it. It looks like V.P. is fighting so-and-so and so on. That man
fighting that man. It isn't true. It is always a spiritual fight, it is devil spirits causing people to do just that. "We wrestle not
against flesh and blood but against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world." Well who are the rulers of the darkness of this world? Top man, top spirit is Satan and underneath him is like a kingdom all the way down the line. They are the ones in control of this world.
Victor Paul Wierwille
Well that is certainly a convenient way to dismiss the abdication of ones character, morals and responsibilities......just claim *the devil made me do it* when one decides to indulge themself.
Oldies, if God had forsisht, why did he lead us to a place where we were going to be decieved and malisciously treated by people who were to be losers in the spiritual/flesh and blood battle?
I believe because the message of salvation and other spiritual truths were exceedingly important in the grand scheme of things, and were there in twi for folks to believe and accept, and some found that very satisfying and accepted them. But along with that, came hurt and anguish for some others, as you point out.
Best answer I can give is that we humans can separate the two, i.e., believe that the good came from God, and the evil came from Satan.
God is love and light, but God doesn't stop his love and light because the devil gets to apply darkness and evil in this world. That's obvious. That's why some folks got hurt in twi while others got blessed. The two were happening simultaneously.
I am a Christian, and was one before piffle. I was raised in a Christian home. I could have gotten by in life JUST FINE, thank you very much, w/o 4 crucified, JCING, etc. I do not know what to believe about any of it, and frankly, I dont care. Jesus died on that cross for my salvation, and whether there were 2 others or 4 others, does not negate my salvation.
AMEN, SISTAH!! Very well put! That's exactly what I think, too!
Having spent some time with some long timers this week-end, I can see the fun and good times that people had while they were in, especially in the "good ole days" when they had much more freedom and were learning new things and not aware of the horrible things going on. Can't blame them for having had a good time and for being glad that they have the friendships and relationships they now have because of TWI.
I just don't think it's all or nothing - black or white for everyone. Maybe for some people, but not for everyone. And we shouldn't be resentful or mad at people who did have a good time and got good things from TWI. It's not their fault that we had mostly bad times. I'm very sorry for the nasty, awful things people went through, but I am glad to have met you all here.
I can think of one good thing I got from TWI. I met my wife at a New Jersey limb meeting in '76. We got married in '77. We've been out of TWI since the exodus of '89. If both us us hadn't decided to go to that meeting we would have never met and my life would have been a whole lot different so that I guess it was worth it for meeting her.
Recommended Posts
Belle
I'm glad that some people had great experiences while they were involved. I really enjoy hearing about them, too.
I do think God moved in TWI in the early years and that many people were touched and healed and found peace in their lives. I don't think he moved in the leaders, it was the "little ones" / "lesser vessels" / "foolish things" / "weak things" who were doing all the work. They were the ones God was able to work with because of their pure hearts. When the black-hearted people started pushing them away that's when the people being affected by the evil began to multiply.
1 Cr 1:27Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChasUFarley
Yes.
SHOCKED by my response, you say?
Well....
At the time I made the best decisions I could to do what I believed was right at the time. I could spend the rest of my life as my own armchair quarterback but what would I gain from it? I am who I am today - warts and all - from my experieneces.
You didn't ask if it was "painless" - only if it was worth it. (Some people confuse the two.)
The other way I look at it is that I never would have met hubby or have the family I have today if we both hadn't been a part of TWI. We met after we had both left - not while we were in. Odd, but works for us (as we are the origional ODD COUPLE!)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
And by the way, the question being asked is not whether there was or wasn't anything beneficial about being involved in TWI, but whether it was worth it in light of negatives associated with it.
I got involved in TWI because PFAL seemed like a cool bible class. I was interested in the bible, wanted to know more about it. I believed that it was truth back then, I longer believe that it is. Therefore any perceived benefits (to me) based on my opinion that PFAL was teaching truth are now null and void in my opinion.
I liked many of the people who I encountered in TWI, but fellowshipping with loving, like-minded people was an experience that pre-dated my TWI involvement, and continues to this day.
I learned a lot of things while in TWI, but I don't believe that any of them were unique to TWI, nor do I believe that I would have never learned them without my TWI involvement.
There were good times, good people and some learning while I was involved in TWI, none of it was worth the crap I went through later, and certainly not worth it in light of the other abuses that took place.
But then, I said this already, didn't I?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
good post oakspear
i wonder sometimes how it would have been
different without those years in
but then again i got so much now
and ahead that i don't stay there long
about the only thing i can say that was
good about twi and it's teachings is
that it got me reading a lot of bible
but their view was so narrow-minded
like you i believe they-twi-were wrong
on so many many many things in the bible
any real good was so buried under that
it was near impossible to find
but somehow i've managed to find a
few things good in it and look at many
more places now for "the right stuff"
not sure if i worded all that well
i hope you get my meaning
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
I don't regret my heart's intentions, or my desire to pursue after God. That IS why I was involved with twi. I made a bad choice and joined the ranks of the glassy eyed brigade, I was a mark for a grifter. I met some great people and had some good times...BUT, that happened in spite of twi, not because of it.
Was it worth it?...Hell no. I would have met some great people and had some good times in any number of different scenarios, I didn't need to "experience" the holy grifter and his nazi waycorp "training". I sure didn't need twi to learn the bible, they got it mostly wrong anyway. Was it worth it?...That's sorta like the question, "Besides the other thing that happened, Mrs. Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
Was it worth it? In thinking through this question, I have to truly determine if twi was able to do things for me that other christian organizations weren't able to do. No it wasn't.
So was it worth it? Absolutely not. I would have saved myself a lot of garbage in my life had I never taken pfal. Do I regret it? Absolutely not. It was learning that benefitted my life. I am not talking about the learning of the Bible, but the learning the detriment of being so black and white in my thinking, of thinking I was so superior because I had the truth, of thinking there was no other place like twi, of blindly following for so many years, and of course, being blind to what was going on behind the scenes.
Where I am today is great for me. Some people have a bumpier road than others, but when they finally get to the good spot in their lives, they really appreciate it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
I have a theory, perhaps correct but only you and others can tell me. Because you (and others) have been hurt and betrayed by twi, you don't want to even remember those spiritual blessings and all. Might equate to something similar to a marriage that once was a blessing, then sours, then ends in an angry bitter divorce where you just hate your former spouse. Your mind isn't on the marriage you had that was a blessing and all, your mind is on the what a creep your spouse is and you hate their guts. The "good" is meaningless since that's dead and buried in one's mind and all that's left is the evil and you're comfortable thinking that way, you're so sure that's the right way to think.
It's a shame because I truly believe that those godly things of twi were blessings from God but because of the evil works of some, those blessings were supplanted by the evil works. It's nothing new, it's been happening and still happens when humans screw up and don't live up to the way we know we should.
Most folks don't think of themselves as evil, but my guess is that someone else in the world does, whether justified or not -- all depends on what went down somewhere along the line to sour that relationship.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I don't know Oldies.. maybe its not a bad thing to just toss it all, at least for me. I tossed everything- not literally- I still have the materials and stuff, just refuse to even examine them, at this stage.
When I found out what ole Vic and Loy were really up to, I tossed everything. No kidding- all the keys to the word's interpretation, manifestations, views about other religions and beliefs, HATRED for Catholics and others- even the vocabulary. I cringed when I heard somebody say "bless you". Now, I find myself SLOWLY picking SOME of the stuff back up, on my terms.
I am of of the opinion that if doc had stuff right, it was IN SPITE of himself.
In a way, I say, trash their names. Go right ahead.. anything good that people got out of it will still float. In a funny way, this kind of thing actually helped me when I was reading some of the posts on WayDale and early Greasespot. I was still of the mind that somehow they had some kind of control over me, and that they could invoke some kind of curse or something.
Those who gave us all of those wonderful "goodies" were the same people who claimed to have power over our flesh, to be able to deliver you to devils if you didn't walk right. And you know what happens then, you're a "greasespot" by midnight.
It was actually refreshing to see somebody curse the daylights out of those bastards and live to tell about it, and actually still prosper. Got me to think a little.
I read the stuff for a LONG time before I dared to post my experiences.
Sure, I may have gotten some good out of it, but the price was WAY too high. The cost way too great. Even ONE case of rape is too high of a price to pay for my salvation.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Oldies:
Okay, one more time...
I'm not saying that I didn't encounter "blessings" when in TWI, spiritual or otherwise. What I'm saying that in light of trhe evil that I encountered, and the further evil experienced by folks here at GS who I have gotten to know, it wasn't worth it.
Am I saying that the evil erases the good? Nope. Just that I view it as sort of a balance. There was good, there was evil, there was stuff that was neither, it was just there. When I look at the good that I experienced, and balance it against the evil, the good stuff just wasn't that good. The evil side of the balance was heavier than the good side.
A lot of the "good" that I experienced was related to my relationships with people in my fellowships. But do I have to see my marriage and family torn apart, be subject to screaming matches and other humiliation in order to have "sweet fellowship"...any reasonable person would say "no".
The same with a knowledge of the bible, and of God. Receiving "Keys to the Word's Interpretation" can be done without being abused.
Part of where I disagree with some folks (maybe you included) is that I no longer view the bible as THE Word of God, so PFAL as a class to lead me to a greater understanding of the bible doesn't stack up for me.
As I said earlier, this discussion wasn't initially about whether there was any good in TWI, or whether folks stayed in due to their own decisions, but about whether the good was worth it in light of the evil.
By the way, just so you're clear:
I believe that there was good in TWI, mostly because of the rank and file, but good nontheless, although it was progressively swamped by ego and abuse.
I don't think that PFAL was all bad, although it was run through with errors, contradictions and doctrines that were abused.
I don't believe that I was forced to remain in at any point, but that I was threatened and deceived. I stayed in past the point where I was getting anything out of it because I thought that I had a chance to save my marriage. I do believe that TWI leaders, including Wierwille, are culpable for their deceit, and for hurting many people. They abused the position of trust that they had.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Thanks, GrouchoJr. That absolutely said it for me. I was not especially abused by TWI in the manner that some were.
But knowing that my participation helped keep an organization going, so that it could hurt so many so grievously, made any fun times or Biblical knowledge not worth the price.
Regards,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
The way I see it, it's kinda a trick question.
"Was it worth it?" Hmmmm.
Maybe if it was just me, I'd say no. But.....
My whole entire family was involved with TWI, and there is no doubt that our involvement changed the course of our lives forevermore.
I guess my opinion is, it's an unfair question. Out lives are what they are, for better or worse. We made choices, and now we live with the consequences. Who can know if "it was worth it?"
I did what I did and take full responsibility.
For better or for worse.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
No trick question ex 10th. It is a question with much deeper implications for me....
I gotta figure out where was God in all of this?
How COULD God supposedly lead us there if it was too be to the destruction of some?
I know that some of you didn`t suffer too badly personally, the thing is ...some folks feel they prospered ....some people were destroyed....
How can we say that it was God who led us there? It then means that the same God guided folks folks their unto their destruction and even death.
My question is deeper than simply *was it worth it* to you personally, I am adressing a deeper inquirey of *could there really be a God who gives a damn if, twi and the resulting destruction from affiliation is the result of following where he led???
Did God guide some of us?
Can we count on a God who would guide us to twi?
Did Satan decieve all of us?
Are neither God nor Satan involved we were just plain stupid in our choices in life?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Well.. for me, I'm still somewhat confused also. Doesn't make sense, may never make sense- I may never know- and that is OK with me.
At least I exited with part of my sanity, heh heh.
I think the Lord was telling a lot of us to abandon that cesspool long before we did. Just wasn't an option, at least in my mind at the time..
But you still can't blame the victim, call them weak, or stupid, or etc. My bible says we are supposed to SUPPORT (hold up) the weak, not give them the screwing of a lifetime. I too can be weak at times.
I know people that "grabbed the goods" and booked out of that place like there was no tomorrow.. now it makes sense. But then, we were told that they were just nuts or something.
I remember times when five or six alarms were going off in my head and I just thought I was nuts. "Just renew your mind, it'll be OK..."
Through all the confusion, I still can't blame God for all the junk, all the abuse, nor the person that received it.
Kind of like the surgeon, "well, we cut off the wrong leg. But its your fault! You shouldn't have had another stinking possessed leg to jump in the way..."
The only thing that makes sense to me in all this, at least at this time, if God led somebody there for something, it was to get it, not to stop and sit around the joint, but just get the hell out, not even to look back.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
It was and is our own deep desire to help people. Selfless motives are godly.
To know the unknown God. The drive and passion within. To corner it, channel it in a direction that will get us answers so we could give.
As satori said on another thread "hard wired into us". But it takes a back seat to freedom of choice. Figuring it out does make it interesting.
Sometimes our choices are right, sometimes they are wrong. For each one of us. Regardless, we are where we are today, and can be thankful for and have regrets about the past.
Nevertheless we must move on. Can't change it. Such is life.
Was it worth it? Yes and no. Some of it was. Some of it was not.
For some I wish they would have never heard of twi.
Not to belittle anyone's horrible experiences there.
Just some thoughts.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
better add this about moving on
I know it takes some doing-not belittling that either.
i'll add this from shazdancers thread
on "getting over it...not"
"Trauma survivors can benefit from treating themselves gently, doing what they need to do to keep themselves safe, and letting the emotional ups and downs of recovery happen as they happen.... With effort, healing does occur, and one can move beyond the abuse."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
act2
Originally posted by rascal:
Were the percieved benefits that we recieved from our association with vp and his ministry truly worth it ...knowing now how others endured viscious treatment at the hands of vp and the other leaders of twi?
Rascal, great thread, BTW. I spent 19 years living a lie. I am truly disgusted that I stayed that long. I continue to be horrified with the things that I have read and continue to read via GS.
IMHO, NO, it was not worth it.
I am a Christian, and was one before piffle. I was raised in a Christian home. I could have gotten by in life JUST FINE, thank you very much, w/o 4 crucified, JCING, etc. I do not know what to believe about any of it, and frankly, I dont care. Jesus died on that cross for my salvation, and whether there were 2 others or 4 others, does not negate my salvation.
:)-->
I go to church now and sometimes when I hear verses that I heard a million times over and over and over, I cringe, but just for a moment, and I remind myself that this is a whole new world and life.
I do not speak in tongues now because I dont care if it is perfect prayer or not. I pray to God with my understanding and I figure that He knows everything anything, so what difference does it make?
You know, the thing that made me afraid to question VP was his statement in piffle regarding: this has to fit like a hand in a glove or the WHOLE BIBLE would fall apart. My gosh, I didnt want the whole Bible to fall apart, so I CANT question him.........
-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
*Jesus died on that cross for my salvation, and whether there were 2 others or 4 others, it does not negate my salvation*
So true act2 ..I think that the ONLY reason that this and the other so called *great truths* we learned in twi had such great significance is because we wre TOLD they were such a big ol hairy deal.....
We were so busy thinking we were special because we knew these supposed *deeper truths* in the bible, we completely ignored what was truly important....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
The following is the best explanation I've heard as to why God allows evil to happen:
Victor Paul WierwilleExcerpt of Session 6
Power For Abundant Living
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
I believe because the message of salvation and other spiritual truths were exceedingly important in the grand scheme of things, and were there in twi for folks to believe and accept, and some found that very satisfying and accepted them. But along with that, came hurt and anguish for some others, as you point out.
Best answer I can give is that we humans can separate the two, i.e., believe that the good came from God, and the evil came from Satan.
God is love and light, but God doesn't stop his love and light because the devil gets to apply darkness and evil in this world. That's obvious. That's why some folks got hurt in twi while others got blessed. The two were happening simultaneously.
If anyone has any better answers, I'm listening.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
AMEN, SISTAH!! Very well put! That's exactly what I think, too!
Having spent some time with some long timers this week-end, I can see the fun and good times that people had while they were in, especially in the "good ole days" when they had much more freedom and were learning new things and not aware of the horrible things going on. Can't blame them for having had a good time and for being glad that they have the friendships and relationships they now have because of TWI.
I just don't think it's all or nothing - black or white for everyone. Maybe for some people, but not for everyone. And we shouldn't be resentful or mad at people who did have a good time and got good things from TWI. It's not their fault that we had mostly bad times. I'm very sorry for the nasty, awful things people went through, but I am glad to have met you all here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TOMMYZ
I can think of one good thing I got from TWI. I met my wife at a New Jersey limb meeting in '76. We got married in '77. We've been out of TWI since the exodus of '89. If both us us hadn't decided to go to that meeting we would have never met and my life would have been a whole lot different so that I guess it was worth it for meeting her.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
Was it worth it?
oldies explains it all, right out of his twi handbook. The same answer you would get from any twi follower, regurgitating the party line.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.