Not arguing with you here, but we ARE talking about a 5 year old!!! My 14 year old has difficulty stating "I'm in a bad mood about something and just need some space" and he's extremely bright and articulate.
So what if the teacher had let the little girl run out of the room, through the school gates, out onto the road and she gets hit by a car or truck? Whose fault is it then ?
Yes, we are talking about a five year. We are also talking about unGodly laws that prevent teachers from doing what's the best for the children. It sounds wrong to expect a five year old to communicate clearly that he/she doesn't want to be touched. It also sounds wrong to try "reason" with a five year old.
Actually my spouse and I have self-control and mutual respect to the end that we have never had to walk away from each other to regain control.
I'm with Allan. Many many of the problems these little darlin's have is because the parents are not in charge but have at least in part given over all control to their children, who need to learn self-control by example set by mom and dad.
What you said is true enough but not always the case. Let me make some points here again that have already been said. But I'll put it a little different I hope.
I'm sure you know these things anyway WG.
There are real problems in many children that the parents are not in control of. Not because of how it is at home, but because of other things.
Chemical imbalances are real. Along with many other problems that have been successfully diagnosed and treated. And there are some that there are still no answers to yet to the parents or doctors or teachers.
Just google "child behavior problems" and the like and you will find many things.
And I used to think whacking a kid's butt is right. Not anymore. Maybe up till 1 or 2 just to get their attention. And not a whack either. Just a little slap on the diaper occasionally-not as a way of life everyday for the child. There are much better means of teaching self-control. Again, google some stuff and learn.
And you may say-sure give 'em drugs to dull it. Or something. But once again many children are the better for it and they are still themselves.
And btw-this is exactly how many abusive relationships develop. Some people's answer is to whip the kid.
2 people get married then along comes the child and children. And all they know is to whip them. Well then that's all that they are teaching these kids. Beat the hell out of each other. Soon the parents are beating each other up.
An endless cycle of ignorance.
I'm not saying that you, WG, are promoting whipping kids-just making a point.
When I was a 3rd grader, a little boy named Timmy sat in front of me. Timmy was seldom in his seat, mouthed off continually, and made a point of aggravating his teacher. One day, she marched over and slapped the snot out of him. He settled right down. Scared me silly and I never dared mouth off in her class.
Nowadays, she would be in prison, Timmy would be on Ritalin or something, and there would be chaos in the classroom.
BTW, my son allegedly has ADHD and was on Ritalin until he hit high school and refused to take it. He has had control problems ever since. We adopted him at age 8. He had spent 7 of his first 8 years of life being bounced from foster home to foster home, never taught much discipline at all, probably as much a cause of his problems as a "chemical imbalance in his brain", which can only be proven by a brain biopsy, and is entirely diagnosed by behavior problems and response to behavior modifying drugs. If I had got that child from the day he was taken into custody, he would (1) not have been on Ritalin, (2) not have failed the first grade and (3) not be a total F-up today. Sound egotistical? Tough!
Many of these problems started being diagnosed and treated after mom went to work, dad went to live with his girlfriend, and being politically correct became more important than being Godly.
Some are just trying to change things for the better. And I agree that the "no child left behind" deal is causing some problems-no doubt. Especially when schools are hurting so badly for money to get more teachers.
No Teacher or anyone else better slap one of my kids or they will be in jail.
My third grade teacher did go overboard a bit once in a while.
I don't advocate slapping anyone in the face, it is degrading.
However, I do believe that many children diagnosed with these socalled disorders are really just brats.
I think that the years 1-6 are absolutely critical in childhood development. Those are the years when the brain actually grows. And sometimes kids are not in the best learning environment. Watching TV for main recreation is said by experts to (pediatric association) to be a factor in developing attention deficit. This is difficult for parents to believe becuase the child is sitting in front of the tube, open mouthed in what appears to be rapt concentration.
I too have a son who has been diagnosed as ADHD, among other things. I'm not convinced that he is ADHD so much as he has a processing disorder called sensory integration disorder. But regardless of the label - he does take medication and the medication has helped, though I do not believe it is the medication alone that has gotten my son from where he was in kindergarten to where he is today.
He has gone from a child who was continuously getting in fights at school, was rarely getting his work down in school (during one assessment he was observed to be under a desk drawing on the underside of it during class time), and barely able to read at his grade level - to a student worthy of the honor of student citizen of the year in second grade. He is now getting his work done in the class and at home, as well as working a grade level ABOVE his classmates.
I do give medication part of the credit and I'm not sure he would have gotten here without it. I also give credit to 84 and myself for doing to research to find the help he needed and for working with him.
And I give a great deal of credit to the wonderful teachers he has had over the past three years who were willing to work with him patiently. Willinging to listen to what I was telling them about him, read the books I brought into them, and NOT berate or belittle him when he behaved inapproprately. That is not to say they justignored bad behavior, but they dealt with it in a manner that also took into consideration the root problem. They learned to read him so they could head off problems beofore they occured. For example, his first grade teacher set up a quiet area for him, where he could go when he was having a difficult time controlling himself. We brought in ear plugs for him to use so he could dampen the sounds of the other students, because he cannot tune out the background noise and it distracted him to no end.
Abigail, draw in your claws. My son WAS on medication from grades 1 through 8, until he flatly refused to take it in high school, because he did not want to his friends to laugh at him. I asked him if he would rather flunk high school or be popular. He said he didn't care about his grades, but didn't want to be laughed at by his friends.
Perhaps I come across a bit harsh. Please be aware that I love my son deeply, and grieve over his present lifestyle. But as YOU said, the decisions were ALL HIS. He made the decision not to take the medication, not to attempt to do well in school, to steal (and get caught), to marry right out of high school, to abandon his wife and child, walk off numerous jobs, and to live with a girl while he is married to a very nice young lady who is the sole support of their child (except for us and her parents).
If my son came to me and said "I need to be on medication," I would be overjoyed. I would pay for the doctor's appointments, the medications, and everything else. He is NOT messed up because he is or was a poor helpless child whose evil adoptive parents denied him the medication, psychological assistance or anything else he needed. Not at all. We did all that, the difference between him on and off medications was night and day. He has made some decisions that have done him great damage, and he is suffering the consequences. I am no longer interested in being his enabler, or his victim. But that doesn't mean I don't love him, and would not help him if he wanted to help himself. Until he gets honest and admits he needs help, there's not much I can do.
Now as to me being ignorant and egotistical, I have some experience myself. And thank you very much, I do blame myself for much of his problems, simply because I'm the mom and in spite of six months of therapy and being told it's not all my fault. I blamed myself to the point of standing with the barrel of a 22 rifle in my mouth at one point.
I believe you were the one who said the child always makes the decision on whether to behave or not?
I don't want to trouble Paw to delete this, but I think you are being very vicious and you have NO idea what has gone on with my son and me. He more than once made the decision to knock me flat. He more than once made the decision to steal from us, and from my 87 year old aunt. He countless times has lied, that was his decision too. And not because he HAD to lie to us because we were such awful parents, because he likes to lie, for no reason. If he told us the truth we could and would help him.
So lay off. You are not alone in your pain. If you weren't calling me names, I would empathize with you.
"However, I do believe that many children diagnosed with these socalled disorders are really just brats."
heh heh heh
sometimes I agree, other times these kids do seem to have major problems.
" ... And sometimes kids are not in the best learning environment. Watching TV for main recreation is said by experts to (pediatric association) to be a factor in developing attention deficit. This is difficult for parents to believe becuase the child is sitting in front of the tube, open mouthed in what appears to be rapt concentration."
We have a study stuffed in a drawer that says with every addition of one hour per day of TV or computer monitor, it coolerates to an additional 10% chance of developing ADHD. [1 hour/day = 10% chance, 2 hours/day = 20% chance, 3 hours/day = 30% chance, etc]
I have been thinking about your post a lot, and I wanted to say again, I am sorry for the awful things I said.
I also wanted to say that difficult or troubled kids are NOT necessarily a product of bad parenting. Sometimes it is genetics - neurological, chemical, phsyical, whatever. Sometimes things occur which are beyond our control and those things have a profound effect on our children.
I am very fortunate, despite the troubles my son has. I have an older brother who was very much like my son when he was a child. He too is a mess to this day. BUT when he was a child, they did not have nearly the same amount of knowledge about these matters as we have available to us today. Back then it truly was shameful to need help with your child.
Even when your own son was younger, the medical community and society in general did not know what is known today. That is why I say I am very fotunate. Because I have information and assistance available to me that many parents before me did not have.
Abs, I'm very thankful you have had the appropriate resources. And I have no idea if my son's biologicals had ADD type problems. I really really wish I'd gotten him earlier. But then again, it mightn't have made that much difference.
I completely understand your feelings, though. When our son was in grades 2-4, we lived in a small town NC and the schools were very helpful. However, later we moved and things changed. The high school guidance counselor actually laughed in my face when I mentioned some ideas to help my son.
Anyways, you are terrific and please forget what you wrote and deleted. I have.
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jardinero
Gladtobeout:
Not arguing with you here, but we ARE talking about a 5 year old!!! My 14 year old has difficulty stating "I'm in a bad mood about something and just need some space" and he's extremely bright and articulate.
J.
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Allan
So what if the teacher had let the little girl run out of the room, through the school gates, out onto the road and she gets hit by a car or truck? Whose fault is it then ?
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outofdafog
Sharon - that's too funny hahahaha
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gladtobeout
Yes, we are talking about a five year. We are also talking about unGodly laws that prevent teachers from doing what's the best for the children. It sounds wrong to expect a five year old to communicate clearly that he/she doesn't want to be touched. It also sounds wrong to try "reason" with a five year old.
Political correctness is of the devil.IMHO
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Watered Garden
Actually my spouse and I have self-control and mutual respect to the end that we have never had to walk away from each other to regain control.
I'm with Allan. Many many of the problems these little darlin's have is because the parents are not in charge but have at least in part given over all control to their children, who need to learn self-control by example set by mom and dad.
Good for you, Allan!
WG
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CM
WG
What you said is true enough but not always the case. Let me make some points here again that have already been said. But I'll put it a little different I hope.
I'm sure you know these things anyway WG.
There are real problems in many children that the parents are not in control of. Not because of how it is at home, but because of other things.
Chemical imbalances are real. Along with many other problems that have been successfully diagnosed and treated. And there are some that there are still no answers to yet to the parents or doctors or teachers.
Just google "child behavior problems" and the like and you will find many things.
And I used to think whacking a kid's butt is right. Not anymore. Maybe up till 1 or 2 just to get their attention. And not a whack either. Just a little slap on the diaper occasionally-not as a way of life everyday for the child. There are much better means of teaching self-control. Again, google some stuff and learn.
And you may say-sure give 'em drugs to dull it. Or something. But once again many children are the better for it and they are still themselves.
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CM
And btw-this is exactly how many abusive relationships develop. Some people's answer is to whip the kid.
2 people get married then along comes the child and children. And all they know is to whip them. Well then that's all that they are teaching these kids. Beat the hell out of each other. Soon the parents are beating each other up.
An endless cycle of ignorance.
I'm not saying that you, WG, are promoting whipping kids-just making a point.
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Watered Garden
When I was a 3rd grader, a little boy named Timmy sat in front of me. Timmy was seldom in his seat, mouthed off continually, and made a point of aggravating his teacher. One day, she marched over and slapped the snot out of him. He settled right down. Scared me silly and I never dared mouth off in her class.
Nowadays, she would be in prison, Timmy would be on Ritalin or something, and there would be chaos in the classroom.
BTW, my son allegedly has ADHD and was on Ritalin until he hit high school and refused to take it. He has had control problems ever since. We adopted him at age 8. He had spent 7 of his first 8 years of life being bounced from foster home to foster home, never taught much discipline at all, probably as much a cause of his problems as a "chemical imbalance in his brain", which can only be proven by a brain biopsy, and is entirely diagnosed by behavior problems and response to behavior modifying drugs. If I had got that child from the day he was taken into custody, he would (1) not have been on Ritalin, (2) not have failed the first grade and (3) not be a total F-up today. Sound egotistical? Tough!
Many of these problems started being diagnosed and treated after mom went to work, dad went to live with his girlfriend, and being politically correct became more important than being Godly.
WG
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CM
So did mine, so did mine...
edit-correction;
they thought he had ADD-attention deficit disorder
don't know what ADHD is
That's what they thought at first.
But with some work, learning and testing, the School and us the Parents figured it out. Without the help of drugs either.
Well our kid didn't need any, but I could of used some at the time
:D-->
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CM
And I had a teacher slap me in the face in fifth grade. Good thing for her that I had good parents. Cuz I might have killed her.
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CM
Some are just trying to change things for the better. And I agree that the "no child left behind" deal is causing some problems-no doubt. Especially when schools are hurting so badly for money to get more teachers.
No Teacher or anyone else better slap one of my kids or they will be in jail.
It's called Assault and it's a crime.
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Watered Garden
ADD: attention deficit disorder
ADHD: attention deficit hyperactivity disorder
ODD: Oppositional defiant disorder
My third grade teacher did go overboard a bit once in a while.
I don't advocate slapping anyone in the face, it is degrading.
However, I do believe that many children diagnosed with these socalled disorders are really just brats.
I think that the years 1-6 are absolutely critical in childhood development. Those are the years when the brain actually grows. And sometimes kids are not in the best learning environment. Watching TV for main recreation is said by experts to (pediatric association) to be a factor in developing attention deficit. This is difficult for parents to believe becuase the child is sitting in front of the tube, open mouthed in what appears to be rapt concentration.
WG
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Abigail
I too have a son who has been diagnosed as ADHD, among other things. I'm not convinced that he is ADHD so much as he has a processing disorder called sensory integration disorder. But regardless of the label - he does take medication and the medication has helped, though I do not believe it is the medication alone that has gotten my son from where he was in kindergarten to where he is today.
He has gone from a child who was continuously getting in fights at school, was rarely getting his work down in school (during one assessment he was observed to be under a desk drawing on the underside of it during class time), and barely able to read at his grade level - to a student worthy of the honor of student citizen of the year in second grade. He is now getting his work done in the class and at home, as well as working a grade level ABOVE his classmates.
I do give medication part of the credit and I'm not sure he would have gotten here without it. I also give credit to 84 and myself for doing to research to find the help he needed and for working with him.
And I give a great deal of credit to the wonderful teachers he has had over the past three years who were willing to work with him patiently. Willinging to listen to what I was telling them about him, read the books I brought into them, and NOT berate or belittle him when he behaved inapproprately. That is not to say they justignored bad behavior, but they dealt with it in a manner that also took into consideration the root problem. They learned to read him so they could head off problems beofore they occured. For example, his first grade teacher set up a quiet area for him, where he could go when he was having a difficult time controlling himself. We brought in ear plugs for him to use so he could dampen the sounds of the other students, because he cannot tune out the background noise and it distracted him to no end.
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Watered Garden
Abigail, draw in your claws. My son WAS on medication from grades 1 through 8, until he flatly refused to take it in high school, because he did not want to his friends to laugh at him. I asked him if he would rather flunk high school or be popular. He said he didn't care about his grades, but didn't want to be laughed at by his friends.
Perhaps I come across a bit harsh. Please be aware that I love my son deeply, and grieve over his present lifestyle. But as YOU said, the decisions were ALL HIS. He made the decision not to take the medication, not to attempt to do well in school, to steal (and get caught), to marry right out of high school, to abandon his wife and child, walk off numerous jobs, and to live with a girl while he is married to a very nice young lady who is the sole support of their child (except for us and her parents).
If my son came to me and said "I need to be on medication," I would be overjoyed. I would pay for the doctor's appointments, the medications, and everything else. He is NOT messed up because he is or was a poor helpless child whose evil adoptive parents denied him the medication, psychological assistance or anything else he needed. Not at all. We did all that, the difference between him on and off medications was night and day. He has made some decisions that have done him great damage, and he is suffering the consequences. I am no longer interested in being his enabler, or his victim. But that doesn't mean I don't love him, and would not help him if he wanted to help himself. Until he gets honest and admits he needs help, there's not much I can do.
Now as to me being ignorant and egotistical, I have some experience myself. And thank you very much, I do blame myself for much of his problems, simply because I'm the mom and in spite of six months of therapy and being told it's not all my fault. I blamed myself to the point of standing with the barrel of a 22 rifle in my mouth at one point.
I believe you were the one who said the child always makes the decision on whether to behave or not?
I don't want to trouble Paw to delete this, but I think you are being very vicious and you have NO idea what has gone on with my son and me. He more than once made the decision to knock me flat. He more than once made the decision to steal from us, and from my 87 year old aunt. He countless times has lied, that was his decision too. And not because he HAD to lie to us because we were such awful parents, because he likes to lie, for no reason. If he told us the truth we could and would help him.
So lay off. You are not alone in your pain. If you weren't calling me names, I would empathize with you.
Okay?
WG
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Abigail
WG,
I apologize, I was out of line. I deleted the last two paragraphs of my previous post.
I am sure you do love your son and that you have gone to bat for him at every opportunity.
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gladtobeout
WG
I do agreee with you.
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Watered Garden
Thanks.
WG
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CM
same goes for parents
please do not hit your kids
stick your hands in your pockets
twi did not and still does not know what "the rod" is. They taught it wrong and practiced it wrong.
I've said it before-get a thesaurus
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Galen
Watered Garden:
"ADD: attention deficit disorder
ADHD: attention deficit hyperactivity disorder
ODD: Oppositional defiant disorder"
We also have dealt with children labeled:
IED: Intermittant Explosive Disorder
RAD: Re-Active Attachment Disorder
FAS: Fetal Alcohol Syndrome
BiPolar
and 'Sexual-Predator'
"However, I do believe that many children diagnosed with these socalled disorders are really just brats."
heh heh heh
sometimes I agree, other times these kids do seem to have major problems.
" ... And sometimes kids are not in the best learning environment. Watching TV for main recreation is said by experts to (pediatric association) to be a factor in developing attention deficit. This is difficult for parents to believe becuase the child is sitting in front of the tube, open mouthed in what appears to be rapt concentration."
We have a study stuffed in a drawer that says with every addition of one hour per day of TV or computer monitor, it coolerates to an additional 10% chance of developing ADHD. [1 hour/day = 10% chance, 2 hours/day = 20% chance, 3 hours/day = 30% chance, etc]
I dont know what the real answers are though.
:-)
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excathedra
what a heartbreaking thread
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CM
Yeah....
What broke my heart is when my 3 year old told his mother that i didn't like him anymore.
That was after applying twi's crap teachings for the first time.
It will not happen again and I'll tell all that they-twi-are wrong.
Use your wooden spoons for cooking. Or throw them away.
And keep your hands to yourself! That's what they teach in schools. They know what they are talking about. Hello-earth to twi!?!
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Abigail
WG,
I have been thinking about your post a lot, and I wanted to say again, I am sorry for the awful things I said.
I also wanted to say that difficult or troubled kids are NOT necessarily a product of bad parenting. Sometimes it is genetics - neurological, chemical, phsyical, whatever. Sometimes things occur which are beyond our control and those things have a profound effect on our children.
I am very fortunate, despite the troubles my son has. I have an older brother who was very much like my son when he was a child. He too is a mess to this day. BUT when he was a child, they did not have nearly the same amount of knowledge about these matters as we have available to us today. Back then it truly was shameful to need help with your child.
Even when your own son was younger, the medical community and society in general did not know what is known today. That is why I say I am very fotunate. Because I have information and assistance available to me that many parents before me did not have.
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Watered Garden
Abs, I'm very thankful you have had the appropriate resources. And I have no idea if my son's biologicals had ADD type problems. I really really wish I'd gotten him earlier. But then again, it mightn't have made that much difference.
I completely understand your feelings, though. When our son was in grades 2-4, we lived in a small town NC and the schools were very helpful. However, later we moved and things changed. The high school guidance counselor actually laughed in my face when I mentioned some ideas to help my son.
Anyways, you are terrific and please forget what you wrote and deleted. I have.
WG
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outofdafog
This could cause a little hysteria....
UCATION/04/29/needle.stick.ap/index.html
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