Sure is a lot we don't know about this.This is a 5 year old and seems so many want to give her a free pass without knowing any history. Staged video? Yes, its called CYA; required in this day and time with bleeding heart liberals stepping in between parents and their kids that happen to need nothing but a good old fasion spanking. Oh and also worthless parents that would see this as a meal ticket as would a long line of parasite lawyers.
Procedure, procedure; procedure! Automatically judge the administrators and the teachers as bumbling idiots without a clue, not knowing what brought this to pass. Ridiculous to imply a 5 year old should be allowed to do this because they can't hurt an adult. Shows you never had a child in a class room with a monster that because of all the rights and laws all the children and faculty had to suffer the wrath of one.
Oh, I know; we all see the age and think of the sweet lil misguided booger and forget that in many inner-city schools sweet 1st graders are carrying and dealing! I have talked to former teachers that got tired of 7 and 8 year olds pulling knives on them!
You know that the monsters that shoot up schools more than likely start at very early ages becoming deranged monsters.
But, had the police came and took her and she was injured and not cuffed, smell the money Momma! Had the faculty laid hands on her and she bruised, smell the money! There are many victims in our schools and its the decent actual innocent kids that suffer the most!
I think this is bizarre. Why didn't they call her parents? That's what our grade school did if a kid got in a fist fight or other violent episode.
And what if there was a medical situation going on? I once had a little boy in preschool have a wierd and scary reaction to an antibiotic. He woke from a nap acting psychotic, running around screaming and crying, hitting and kicking when I tried to hold him. Called mom, who took him to the er.
NO, NO, NO, State Social Services departments have long recognized 'wrapping' or even tight holding as a form of specialized therapy, and you need an MD behind your name to do it with a child.
True. With both children, and vulnerable adults.
Restraining the child in order to protect her from injuring herself or others is one thing (and there is a ton of paper work that follows after it is all over), but to actually tie them, or lock them in a room will get you *free* room and board at your county jail.
Some folks have what is called a *Rule 40*, which is a specific method of how they are to be *taken down*, if need be. This is signed off on by the state, the social workers, the MD's, etc. If a person needs to be taken down for violence to others, the floor is always where they go, and are held there for 3 minutes minimum. This happens on an individual basis, and is not the overall way things are done, and certainly not in the case of a 5 year old.
I don't think the cops should have been called either. Since she was calm when they arrived -- they had no business putting her in cuffs, or even being there. As soon as she was calm, the person who called the police should have let them know to return to their favourite doughnut shop, where they could file a *no report* to their headquarters, and all would have been much better than it has turned out to be.
I would think that the average public school kindergarten teacher would have had some experience and/or training in defusing whatever triggered this child to react the way she did. If not, then many schools have guidance councilors, assistant principals, etc., who have a least some training in psychology. Someone should have been able to talk this child down, comfort her and then show her to a secluded room or principal's office for her parents or guardians to pick her up.
Since it is late in the school year, why is it that this little girl is so upset and the teacher not able to handle it? In otherwords, shouldn't the teacher be somewhat familiar with her behavior and able to deal with her appropriately?
Calling the police, in my opinion, to get an out-of-control five year old would be like using a .38 Special to get rid of a pesky mosquito. (If this becomes the norm than I'll probably see the blue lights flashing in the KMart toy department - not because there's a special sale - but just because I told my son "NO!" and he threw a fit - like any kid his age would do!)
I feel bad for the adults who had to encounter her but I would think that the "unpleasantries" that they suffered were nothing compared to how she felt when cuffed, stuffed and booked!
don't think the cops should have been called either. Since she was calm when they arrived -- they had no business putting her in cuffs, or even being there. As soon as she was calm, the person who called the police should have let them know to return to their favourite doughnut shop, where they could file a *no report* to their headquarters, and all would have been much better than it has turned out to be.
dmiller ---
ABSOLUTELY!
Restraining anyone - children and adults - can be quickly labeled "ABUSE" if it is not done with the orders of a doctor or other professional and in cases where the person is absolutely out of control, posing a safety threat to themselves or others. Any instutution that would have to possibly restrain people, for whatever reason, will have STRICT policies on restraint, what can be used and for how long. This is something taken very seriously by human rights activists - and rightly so!
C'mon - How hard can a 5 year old girl punch? Or even kick? What was she going to do to two fully grown men (the police) who probably take down 250lb crack dealers in far worse circumstances??
If this turns into a lawsuit, and I'm sure it will.... I wouldn't bet on the judge being on the side of the school or the police, even though the child was out-of-line. What were they thinking when they did this?
Some explanation, but will try to be brief. I lived across from parents with an autistic 12 yr old boy. They both worked and he was expected to allow himself in after school. Parents were to get home within 1/2 hour of him, but rarely did. He would get violent and attacked my 8 yr old. Once breaking into my place to get him.
Police were called and wouldn't do anything. Other parents and I tried everything we could to get this resolved with this boys parents. Money turned out to not be an issue as a few years previous when this boy attacked a small girl and police responded, they had to pull the boy off the girl and he was bruised while being restrained. It was settled out of court and the amount never disclosed.
Being this late in the year, I am sure this was not a one time incident. I am quite sure the school had tried to deal with the parent. I am sure the police had to follow procedure and all this was done with all I's dotted and T's crossed. Perhaps this was an extreme move to get this girl help with a faculty that had reached its last straw and didn't want more of the same next year or even worse.
Reasons are not always medical. I dealt with another kid that was examined a few times, like the time he tried to bury my middle and his friends alive. But the first boy I mentioned and this one were threats to other kids and all we ever heard was the parents screaming about their rights. Oh, the second one here is serving life without parole. To bad he wasn't stopped before he raped that little girl, we all saw it coming.
Garth, I did not say this situation, incident, was 'devilish' because none of us know the circumstances involved.What I was referring to was 'the push' again of governments to impose 'their will' on 'the majority' of citzens who do not get a say in the matter.'The Push' for example of outlawing a parents right to exercize 'reasonable'discipline of their own children.
This particular push comes directly from the United Nations and I don't believe hardly anything good ever comes out of that instituition.And I certainly was not including special need kids(of whom I am very familiar with.)
Unbelievable...What's next...boot camp for toddlers?
Groucho -- That's what my husband calls it when we send Kristopher, who is 3 years old, to my mother's house for the day to be babysat - it's Nana's Boot Camp because he comes back home almost goose-stepping (she's a strict cookie!)!
Man, I am still so ****** about this thread. I'd bet most of you who want to crucify the parents don't even have children, much less a child with special needs.
I bet you have no clue how much time, energy and emotion goes into raising such a child. Are you aware that most doctors won't even consider testing and diagnosing such a child until after they get in trouble at school?
Once you finally do find a doctor, and wait months on a waiting list to be seen, go through two days or more worth of testing, get results which may or may not lead to an accurate diagnosis, you then being the long process of trial and error with therapy and medications. When/if you finally find a medication that works, odds are good eventually the body will grow and adjust and you will have to change medications. Then its back to trial and error with medications which may help or may exasperate the problem. Then there are the side effects and the medications to treat the side effects.
What are we to do with these special needs (aka "cookoo kids)? Should we stone them as was done in days of old? Should we lock them in a mental ward where they will never have a chance at a normal life? Maybe we should stone the parents for having given birth to them?
Separate them and put them in special ed? What about the ones who are too smart for special ed, what do you do with those children?
It is very easy to sit on your throne and judge that which you know nothing about. Well, in the words of a special lady, phuk you
Hey I am not stoning any parent. My beef is with the judges in this country who have taken the right of the parents away to discipline their children. This child could be a product of political correctness run amuck. We are reaping in our society what we have allowed our politicians to sow.
Also, we don't know if she was a special needs kid. She could have been just a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum. We don't know all of those details. In addition, appparently this child had run ins with this asistant principle before, and the mother had asked for this woman not to be involved in handling her child.
Nowadays, everyone wants to put every child who is energetic on some kind of meds. They are classified hyper active. Could be just that children are active - THEY ARE CHILDREN after all. When I was young we spent our entire summer outside and depleted that energy by the tme evening rolled around. Yes parents do have a big responisbilty in this.
Really I don't think we have enough detail for anybody to judge. But this is a forum after all, where people can express their opinions and views.
"My beef is with the judges in this country who have taken the right of the parents away to discipline their children. "
I disagree. The judges have not removed a parents right to discipline a child. In fact, in many states it is still perfectly legal to spank a child on the behind with a bare hand as long as the red mark does not last for hours.
However, where our government has blown it, is by taking away a teacher's right to discpiline a child (and no I am not speaking of corporal punishment). Even worse, they have put a tremendous amount of pressure on the teachers and the schools to meet certain goals without offering them the funding or training to make that possible.
"Also, we don't know if she was a special needs kid. She could have been just a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum."
Yes, I agree this is possible. BUT most 5 year olds will not throw a tantrum of this degree unless there is an underlying problem. That problem COULD be a lack of discpline at home, but this far into the year the child should be accustomed to the routine of school, as well as the discipline which follows. Other problems could be boredom, being expected to sit for too long a period, physical problems as Krys suggest, or neurological ones. We just don't have enough information to know. BUT to just out right blame the parents, given this lack of information, really ....es me off. In addition, traumatizing the child by handcuffing her isn't going to help the child.
" In addition, appparently this child had run ins with this asistant principle before, and the mother had asked for this woman not to be involved in handling her child."
Which is one of the reasons why I would not be so quick to blame the parents. Most parents who don't care enough about their kids to discipline them, are not going to put much time or energy into fighting with the school over how the school handles them.
So I am wondering - if there have been problems in the past, has an assessment been done? Has one been requested? This mother had an attorney, had she retained him prior to this event because she was already having problems with the school? Perhaps the school was not complying with the laws with regard to doing an assessment? I don't know.
"Nowadays, everyone wants to put every child who is energetic on some kind of meds. They are classified hyper active. Could be just that children are active - THEY ARE CHILDREN after all. When I was young we spent our entire summer outside and depleted that energy by the tme evening rolled around. Yes parents do have a big responisbilty in this. "
Yes, and when we were young we spent half a day in kindergarten and most of that time was spent playing. Now in kindergarten they are expected to be at school for 7 - 8 hours and most of that time is spent sitting at a desk doing paperwork.
Additionally, is it not entirely possible that we do have more kids who are ADD and ADHD because of the chemicals we put in our food, water and air? The preservatives in all the vaccines we give them? Could it simply be because we have a larger population? A better (though still seriously lacking) understanding of how the body and mind work or in some cases do not work properly? Again, I don't know. Also, a number of kids are misdiagnosed as ADD or ADHD when there is a different neurological disorder because the symptoms can overlap so much.
What I can't help but wonder though, is amongst all this finger pointing is anyone thinking of the child? How terrified and/or angry she must have felt to get that out of control? How terrified she must have felt when she was handcuffed and placed in a police car? Did any of that help her? Or just hurt her more?
I have been on both sides of the coin when it comes to medicating children, Outofdaog. I have a son who does require medication and I have fought for 6 years to get him not just the medications but the other help he needs as well. I am still fighting and will probably have to continue to fight for a good long time. That could easily have been my son in kindergarten and I thank God it was not. He is 8 now and has come a long ways, but he still has a ways to go, too.
I also have a "normal" son in kindergarten and I have spent this entire past winter fighting a school that would have me drug him into submission because he had a difficult time sitting at a desk all day doing paperwork. Amazingly (sarc) with the arrival of spring and more outdoor time, along with a new teacher who is willing to give him work that challenges him, his behavioral problems have disspeared without medication. But I'll tell you, this past winter, that too could have been my 6 year old son, who was pushed beyond frustration by his teacher. This son, who is not at all violent at home, did start having tantrums at school.
So, I agree, we don't have enough information to know what happened to this little girl and why it got so far out of hand. That being the case, why are so many quick to blame the parents?
Yes, I agree this is possible. BUT most 5 year olds will not throw a tantrum of this degree unless there is an underlying problem
Sometimes the kid is backed in the corner from a hellish teacher brandishing a red suit and pitchfork... that can be quite an underlying problem.. I know its the exception, but it does happen.
I have never seen a blame-fest help solve any problems. I think this is the case in many many situations inside and outside of school.
Folks get so busy tossing blame around that time is wasted that could have been used to work TOGETHER to reach a solution.
I have a son with severe adhd, who when in the classroom of a teacher who did not handle him well, would run out of the school and up and down the street. His behavior was bordering on opositional defiant. I was called to the school a number of times to "handle" my son.
They wanted to throw blame at whoever they could to "deal" with this situation. I told them I was not playing the blame game. There IS a solution, and if they would care to work together, it would be reached.
After that...we found a behavior plan that worked and the problems "disappeared."
We don't need blame for teachers, parents, doctors, etc. We need to have an attitude to work together to help the PERSON, not help the problem.
I am sorry, but I do blame our judicial system and those in the social services who have gone overboard on this issue. As a former certified daycare provider, I have seen countless instances where the child has told the parent that if they spank him, they are going to go and tell the school that the parent hit them. They teach this from kindergarten on. And at that age a child can't separate parenting from abuse. Some children use this as a form of blackmail toward their parents.
The problem began years ago when instead of discipline (and I ain't talking abut beating them) they decided it would be best to reason with little Johnny and let him express himself. I have seen these children expressing themselves when they have literally struck out at the parent with their hands, or feet and the parent does nothing. Just puts him in time out for 5 minutes like that is going to help.
Abigail - I can certainly imagine your frustration at times with the system. Seems they really put you through the ringer. I am sorry it has been so difficult for you. I did have some true AD kids in my daycare, so I do understand where you are coming from.
In order for a system to be fixed, somewhere along the way the problem needs to be identified. Call that blame if you will, or don't call it blame, I am just saying that somewhere along the way, a breakdown has occurred in our system and really needs to be addressed.
If you read my other posts, I say the child is the least one to blame. And she was sitting calmed down when the cops came in and put the cuffs on her, which just got her totally freaked out again.
And who took the corporal punishment out of the schools?
Identifying a problem is not blame. Unless the process stops there.
I mean, that's just logical, isn't it? You have to know the problem to reach a solution.
I am in no way saying that there isn't blame...what I am saying is that if you stop at "so and so is to blame" then you solve nothing.
If, on the other hand, you know your rights, know the problem, have researched solutions you will not stop at the blame. You will proceed until there is a solution that works.
This is in NO WAY excusing anyone at blame...this is going beyond that to unify as a team to fix (or at least begin to fix) the problem.
Some problems cannot be fixed quickly and do require lots of time, patience, and stubbornness (i.e. "fight").
And who took the corporal punishment out of the schools?
I don't think that bringing corporal punishment back to the schools is a very good idea at all.
Look at all the problems they're having with teachers and molestation.
Plus if we had corporal punishment in the schools, liability insurance would have to be increased, and that money's gotta come from somewhere.
And it really should be a parent's responsibility to administer a spanking if that's what's called for. But one of the problems is that there are too many parents who take the attitude "My kid right or wrong!" and assume that the teachers are picking on their kids or just plain don't like them.
I *do* think that teachers should have some means of maintaining discipline in the classroom. But if teachers use good classroom management techniques, discipline problems tend to lessen both in severity and in occurrence.
Teachers have a tough job. They are suppose to be teaching but they spend much of their time trying to gain control over the classroom. This is tough when you have little authority to discipline. Teachers need to have some authority to discipline and all children NEED accountablility. That is real. If this girl doesn't get these things along with a deep dose of the love of God, then handcuffs will become very familiar to her in the future.(when she is sent to jail as an adult)
Let's bring discipline and accountability back into the schools.
My 15 year old was telling me that one of their teachers is on paid administrative leave. Apparently one of the gals in his class threw a pencil and he told her to pick it up. She got up and began to walk out the door of the classroom and the teacher tried to stop her by grabbing her arm. His grabbing her left a bruise and you know the rest of the story.
Someone brought this up before about how parents defend their children whether right or wrong. I wonder if the parents even addressed the girl's behaviour before they cried about him being fired, or reprimanded or something. We do a grave dis-service to our children when we back them up when they are wrong and punish the teachers for trying to control their classrooms. Appears to me they have little rights compared to the students.
Again, political correctness run amuck. Until we address those issues, it can only get worse.
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wingnut
Sure is a lot we don't know about this.This is a 5 year old and seems so many want to give her a free pass without knowing any history. Staged video? Yes, its called CYA; required in this day and time with bleeding heart liberals stepping in between parents and their kids that happen to need nothing but a good old fasion spanking. Oh and also worthless parents that would see this as a meal ticket as would a long line of parasite lawyers.
Procedure, procedure; procedure! Automatically judge the administrators and the teachers as bumbling idiots without a clue, not knowing what brought this to pass. Ridiculous to imply a 5 year old should be allowed to do this because they can't hurt an adult. Shows you never had a child in a class room with a monster that because of all the rights and laws all the children and faculty had to suffer the wrath of one.
Oh, I know; we all see the age and think of the sweet lil misguided booger and forget that in many inner-city schools sweet 1st graders are carrying and dealing! I have talked to former teachers that got tired of 7 and 8 year olds pulling knives on them!
You know that the monsters that shoot up schools more than likely start at very early ages becoming deranged monsters.
But, had the police came and took her and she was injured and not cuffed, smell the money Momma! Had the faculty laid hands on her and she bruised, smell the money! There are many victims in our schools and its the decent actual innocent kids that suffer the most!
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Bramble
I think this is bizarre. Why didn't they call her parents? That's what our grade school did if a kid got in a fist fight or other violent episode.
And what if there was a medical situation going on? I once had a little boy in preschool have a wierd and scary reaction to an antibiotic. He woke from a nap acting psychotic, running around screaming and crying, hitting and kicking when I tried to hold him. Called mom, who took him to the er.
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Wacky Funster
Like I said, the teachers weren't trained to deal with cookoo kids.
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Shellon
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Abigail
Wacky,
I pray you never give birth to such a cookoo kid, for the kid's sake.
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dmiller
True. With both children, and vulnerable adults.
Restraining the child in order to protect her from injuring herself or others is one thing (and there is a ton of paper work that follows after it is all over), but to actually tie them, or lock them in a room will get you *free* room and board at your county jail.
Some folks have what is called a *Rule 40*, which is a specific method of how they are to be *taken down*, if need be. This is signed off on by the state, the social workers, the MD's, etc. If a person needs to be taken down for violence to others, the floor is always where they go, and are held there for 3 minutes minimum. This happens on an individual basis, and is not the overall way things are done, and certainly not in the case of a 5 year old.
I don't think the cops should have been called either. Since she was calm when they arrived -- they had no business putting her in cuffs, or even being there. As soon as she was calm, the person who called the police should have let them know to return to their favourite doughnut shop, where they could file a *no report* to their headquarters, and all would have been much better than it has turned out to be.
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ChasUFarley
I would think that the average public school kindergarten teacher would have had some experience and/or training in defusing whatever triggered this child to react the way she did. If not, then many schools have guidance councilors, assistant principals, etc., who have a least some training in psychology. Someone should have been able to talk this child down, comfort her and then show her to a secluded room or principal's office for her parents or guardians to pick her up.
Since it is late in the school year, why is it that this little girl is so upset and the teacher not able to handle it? In otherwords, shouldn't the teacher be somewhat familiar with her behavior and able to deal with her appropriately?
Calling the police, in my opinion, to get an out-of-control five year old would be like using a .38 Special to get rid of a pesky mosquito. (If this becomes the norm than I'll probably see the blue lights flashing in the KMart toy department - not because there's a special sale - but just because I told my son "NO!" and he threw a fit - like any kid his age would do!)
I feel bad for the adults who had to encounter her but I would think that the "unpleasantries" that they suffered were nothing compared to how she felt when cuffed, stuffed and booked!
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ChasUFarley
dmiller ---
ABSOLUTELY!
Restraining anyone - children and adults - can be quickly labeled "ABUSE" if it is not done with the orders of a doctor or other professional and in cases where the person is absolutely out of control, posing a safety threat to themselves or others. Any instutution that would have to possibly restrain people, for whatever reason, will have STRICT policies on restraint, what can be used and for how long. This is something taken very seriously by human rights activists - and rightly so!
C'mon - How hard can a 5 year old girl punch? Or even kick? What was she going to do to two fully grown men (the police) who probably take down 250lb crack dealers in far worse circumstances??
If this turns into a lawsuit, and I'm sure it will.... I wouldn't bet on the judge being on the side of the school or the police, even though the child was out-of-line. What were they thinking when they did this?
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wingnut
Some explanation, but will try to be brief. I lived across from parents with an autistic 12 yr old boy. They both worked and he was expected to allow himself in after school. Parents were to get home within 1/2 hour of him, but rarely did. He would get violent and attacked my 8 yr old. Once breaking into my place to get him.
Police were called and wouldn't do anything. Other parents and I tried everything we could to get this resolved with this boys parents. Money turned out to not be an issue as a few years previous when this boy attacked a small girl and police responded, they had to pull the boy off the girl and he was bruised while being restrained. It was settled out of court and the amount never disclosed.
Being this late in the year, I am sure this was not a one time incident. I am quite sure the school had tried to deal with the parent. I am sure the police had to follow procedure and all this was done with all I's dotted and T's crossed. Perhaps this was an extreme move to get this girl help with a faculty that had reached its last straw and didn't want more of the same next year or even worse.
Reasons are not always medical. I dealt with another kid that was examined a few times, like the time he tried to bury my middle and his friends alive. But the first boy I mentioned and this one were threats to other kids and all we ever heard was the parents screaming about their rights. Oh, the second one here is serving life without parole. To bad he wasn't stopped before he raped that little girl, we all saw it coming.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Calling the cops on a 5 year old girl and then handcuffing her?
Unbelievable...What's next...boot camp for toddlers?
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Allan
Garth, I did not say this situation, incident, was 'devilish' because none of us know the circumstances involved.What I was referring to was 'the push' again of governments to impose 'their will' on 'the majority' of citzens who do not get a say in the matter.'The Push' for example of outlawing a parents right to exercize 'reasonable'discipline of their own children.
This particular push comes directly from the United Nations and I don't believe hardly anything good ever comes out of that instituition.And I certainly was not including special need kids(of whom I am very familiar with.)
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ChasUFarley
Groucho -- That's what my husband calls it when we send Kristopher, who is 3 years old, to my mother's house for the day to be babysat - it's Nana's Boot Camp because he comes back home almost goose-stepping (she's a strict cookie!)!
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Abigail
Man, I am still so ****** about this thread. I'd bet most of you who want to crucify the parents don't even have children, much less a child with special needs.
I bet you have no clue how much time, energy and emotion goes into raising such a child. Are you aware that most doctors won't even consider testing and diagnosing such a child until after they get in trouble at school?
Once you finally do find a doctor, and wait months on a waiting list to be seen, go through two days or more worth of testing, get results which may or may not lead to an accurate diagnosis, you then being the long process of trial and error with therapy and medications. When/if you finally find a medication that works, odds are good eventually the body will grow and adjust and you will have to change medications. Then its back to trial and error with medications which may help or may exasperate the problem. Then there are the side effects and the medications to treat the side effects.
What are we to do with these special needs (aka "cookoo kids)? Should we stone them as was done in days of old? Should we lock them in a mental ward where they will never have a chance at a normal life? Maybe we should stone the parents for having given birth to them?
Separate them and put them in special ed? What about the ones who are too smart for special ed, what do you do with those children?
It is very easy to sit on your throne and judge that which you know nothing about. Well, in the words of a special lady, phuk you
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Wacky Funster
Ab...you're sounding a little cookoo to me now!!!
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outofdafog
Hey I am not stoning any parent. My beef is with the judges in this country who have taken the right of the parents away to discipline their children. This child could be a product of political correctness run amuck. We are reaping in our society what we have allowed our politicians to sow.
Also, we don't know if she was a special needs kid. She could have been just a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum. We don't know all of those details. In addition, appparently this child had run ins with this asistant principle before, and the mother had asked for this woman not to be involved in handling her child.
Nowadays, everyone wants to put every child who is energetic on some kind of meds. They are classified hyper active. Could be just that children are active - THEY ARE CHILDREN after all. When I was young we spent our entire summer outside and depleted that energy by the tme evening rolled around. Yes parents do have a big responisbilty in this.
Really I don't think we have enough detail for anybody to judge. But this is a forum after all, where people can express their opinions and views.
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outofdafog
And yes I have two children, so I believe I am qualified to form an opinion.
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Abigail
"My beef is with the judges in this country who have taken the right of the parents away to discipline their children. "
I disagree. The judges have not removed a parents right to discipline a child. In fact, in many states it is still perfectly legal to spank a child on the behind with a bare hand as long as the red mark does not last for hours.
However, where our government has blown it, is by taking away a teacher's right to discpiline a child (and no I am not speaking of corporal punishment). Even worse, they have put a tremendous amount of pressure on the teachers and the schools to meet certain goals without offering them the funding or training to make that possible.
"Also, we don't know if she was a special needs kid. She could have been just a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum."
Yes, I agree this is possible. BUT most 5 year olds will not throw a tantrum of this degree unless there is an underlying problem. That problem COULD be a lack of discpline at home, but this far into the year the child should be accustomed to the routine of school, as well as the discipline which follows. Other problems could be boredom, being expected to sit for too long a period, physical problems as Krys suggest, or neurological ones. We just don't have enough information to know. BUT to just out right blame the parents, given this lack of information, really ....es me off. In addition, traumatizing the child by handcuffing her isn't going to help the child.
" In addition, appparently this child had run ins with this asistant principle before, and the mother had asked for this woman not to be involved in handling her child."
Which is one of the reasons why I would not be so quick to blame the parents. Most parents who don't care enough about their kids to discipline them, are not going to put much time or energy into fighting with the school over how the school handles them.
So I am wondering - if there have been problems in the past, has an assessment been done? Has one been requested? This mother had an attorney, had she retained him prior to this event because she was already having problems with the school? Perhaps the school was not complying with the laws with regard to doing an assessment? I don't know.
"Nowadays, everyone wants to put every child who is energetic on some kind of meds. They are classified hyper active. Could be just that children are active - THEY ARE CHILDREN after all. When I was young we spent our entire summer outside and depleted that energy by the tme evening rolled around. Yes parents do have a big responisbilty in this. "
Yes, and when we were young we spent half a day in kindergarten and most of that time was spent playing. Now in kindergarten they are expected to be at school for 7 - 8 hours and most of that time is spent sitting at a desk doing paperwork.
Additionally, is it not entirely possible that we do have more kids who are ADD and ADHD because of the chemicals we put in our food, water and air? The preservatives in all the vaccines we give them? Could it simply be because we have a larger population? A better (though still seriously lacking) understanding of how the body and mind work or in some cases do not work properly? Again, I don't know. Also, a number of kids are misdiagnosed as ADD or ADHD when there is a different neurological disorder because the symptoms can overlap so much.
What I can't help but wonder though, is amongst all this finger pointing is anyone thinking of the child? How terrified and/or angry she must have felt to get that out of control? How terrified she must have felt when she was handcuffed and placed in a police car? Did any of that help her? Or just hurt her more?
I have been on both sides of the coin when it comes to medicating children, Outofdaog. I have a son who does require medication and I have fought for 6 years to get him not just the medications but the other help he needs as well. I am still fighting and will probably have to continue to fight for a good long time. That could easily have been my son in kindergarten and I thank God it was not. He is 8 now and has come a long ways, but he still has a ways to go, too.
I also have a "normal" son in kindergarten and I have spent this entire past winter fighting a school that would have me drug him into submission because he had a difficult time sitting at a desk all day doing paperwork. Amazingly (sarc) with the arrival of spring and more outdoor time, along with a new teacher who is willing to give him work that challenges him, his behavioral problems have disspeared without medication. But I'll tell you, this past winter, that too could have been my 6 year old son, who was pushed beyond frustration by his teacher. This son, who is not at all violent at home, did start having tantrums at school.
So, I agree, we don't have enough information to know what happened to this little girl and why it got so far out of hand. That being the case, why are so many quick to blame the parents?
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Ham
Sometimes the kid is backed in the corner from a hellish teacher brandishing a red suit and pitchfork... that can be quite an underlying problem.. I know its the exception, but it does happen.
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Cindy!
Why does blame need to be placed AT ALL????
I have never seen a blame-fest help solve any problems. I think this is the case in many many situations inside and outside of school.
Folks get so busy tossing blame around that time is wasted that could have been used to work TOGETHER to reach a solution.
I have a son with severe adhd, who when in the classroom of a teacher who did not handle him well, would run out of the school and up and down the street. His behavior was bordering on opositional defiant. I was called to the school a number of times to "handle" my son.
They wanted to throw blame at whoever they could to "deal" with this situation. I told them I was not playing the blame game. There IS a solution, and if they would care to work together, it would be reached.
After that...we found a behavior plan that worked and the problems "disappeared."
We don't need blame for teachers, parents, doctors, etc. We need to have an attitude to work together to help the PERSON, not help the problem.
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outofdafog
I am sorry, but I do blame our judicial system and those in the social services who have gone overboard on this issue. As a former certified daycare provider, I have seen countless instances where the child has told the parent that if they spank him, they are going to go and tell the school that the parent hit them. They teach this from kindergarten on. And at that age a child can't separate parenting from abuse. Some children use this as a form of blackmail toward their parents.
The problem began years ago when instead of discipline (and I ain't talking abut beating them) they decided it would be best to reason with little Johnny and let him express himself. I have seen these children expressing themselves when they have literally struck out at the parent with their hands, or feet and the parent does nothing. Just puts him in time out for 5 minutes like that is going to help.
Abigail - I can certainly imagine your frustration at times with the system. Seems they really put you through the ringer. I am sorry it has been so difficult for you. I did have some true AD kids in my daycare, so I do understand where you are coming from.
In order for a system to be fixed, somewhere along the way the problem needs to be identified. Call that blame if you will, or don't call it blame, I am just saying that somewhere along the way, a breakdown has occurred in our system and really needs to be addressed.
If you read my other posts, I say the child is the least one to blame. And she was sitting calmed down when the cops came in and put the cuffs on her, which just got her totally freaked out again.
And who took the corporal punishment out of the schools?
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Cindy!
Identifying a problem is not blame. Unless the process stops there.
I mean, that's just logical, isn't it? You have to know the problem to reach a solution.
I am in no way saying that there isn't blame...what I am saying is that if you stop at "so and so is to blame" then you solve nothing.
If, on the other hand, you know your rights, know the problem, have researched solutions you will not stop at the blame. You will proceed until there is a solution that works.
This is in NO WAY excusing anyone at blame...this is going beyond that to unify as a team to fix (or at least begin to fix) the problem.
Some problems cannot be fixed quickly and do require lots of time, patience, and stubbornness (i.e. "fight").
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Steve!
I don't think that bringing corporal punishment back to the schools is a very good idea at all.
Look at all the problems they're having with teachers and molestation.
Plus if we had corporal punishment in the schools, liability insurance would have to be increased, and that money's gotta come from somewhere.
And it really should be a parent's responsibility to administer a spanking if that's what's called for. But one of the problems is that there are too many parents who take the attitude "My kid right or wrong!" and assume that the teachers are picking on their kids or just plain don't like them.
I *do* think that teachers should have some means of maintaining discipline in the classroom. But if teachers use good classroom management techniques, discipline problems tend to lessen both in severity and in occurrence.
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gladtobeout
Teachers have a tough job. They are suppose to be teaching but they spend much of their time trying to gain control over the classroom. This is tough when you have little authority to discipline. Teachers need to have some authority to discipline and all children NEED accountablility. That is real. If this girl doesn't get these things along with a deep dose of the love of God, then handcuffs will become very familiar to her in the future.(when she is sent to jail as an adult)
Let's bring discipline and accountability back into the schools.
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outofdafog
Interesting side note:
My 15 year old was telling me that one of their teachers is on paid administrative leave. Apparently one of the gals in his class threw a pencil and he told her to pick it up. She got up and began to walk out the door of the classroom and the teacher tried to stop her by grabbing her arm. His grabbing her left a bruise and you know the rest of the story.
Someone brought this up before about how parents defend their children whether right or wrong. I wonder if the parents even addressed the girl's behaviour before they cried about him being fired, or reprimanded or something. We do a grave dis-service to our children when we back them up when they are wrong and punish the teachers for trying to control their classrooms. Appears to me they have little rights compared to the students.
Again, political correctness run amuck. Until we address those issues, it can only get worse.
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