Just that the group doesnt want the problems it may mean to an all male group. come on. really like having girls at all mens club.
yes it is discrimination but we all discriminate. I have cat fur on my couch some of my friends will not come over to my house cause it makes them sneeze and eyes water. or they do not like cats. maybe some men feel uncomfortable with men looking at them as potential dates.. it is a young mans group for the most part and they would be looking to meet others to date I assume. they cant say no dating allowed.
oh i know many will disagree , but I kind of get it seeing it is such an age group of young males and its oath and all.
why not start a "gay" boy scout group for themself?
see times have changed homosexuals have gotten a position now of a minority and that brings pwoer and say so in America. Which I do not understand how when they are still a relativly small segment of society . ????
Im all for live and let live but why does it have to be an issue? why cant private groups say what they want and do not want?
I see no reason for woman to join all men clubs, or for gays to be in a group that doesnt welcome their lifestyle or choices sexualy.
how is that hating? hating to me is not allowing them to be homosexual . period. or not allowing girls to be girls .
we all discriminate it is just how and with whom that is different.
If people disagree with the BSA's stance on gays, they have the right to protest. If a school board feels that it's in the community's best interest to not present the viewpoints of a private organization within it's wall, it's their privilege. If the community feels the school board is not working within their interest, they can recall or not reelect the members.
It's a free country and I don't see a problem.
I have friends that feel that the BSA is a great organization. I'm not so sure and it's not because of the gay issue.
Are the Boy Scouts of America really so awful that they are no longer welcome in our schools?
No -- they are not so bad, but the folks judging them are. The skewed values that are being levied against the scouts by the liberal hate groups (yep -- I said that, and you can quote me on it) are just as bad (if not worse) than the accusations made against BSA.
Seems like every last somebody gets to have *diversity* of opinion, until it involves christian morals or conservative thinking. I have no problem with groups distancing themselves from the scouts if they wish to, cause that is their right.
But for them to turn around and say that the scouts are a hate group because they choose to exclude homosexuals from their private organization, makes the accusers the hate group instead.
quote:
Yes, yes, yes... all excellent points.
BUT... if you speak out of your beliefs that homosexuality is questionable, you ARE a hate group. Period.
These are the times in which we live.
Highway -- sadly -- this is true. It's a shame that the more upstanding folks don't tell these groups who .... and moan about *gay rights* to take a hike, and allow *diversity* of thought to be enjoyed by all.
This is all just my *IMHO* -- but if you ask me -- diversity seems to be pretty well one-sided, and not diversity by any stretch of the imagination (these days).
The BSA is out of step with large portions of the rest of the Scouting moverment who see no conflict between the ideals of the movement and homosexuals being members providing they observe the honour code.
A friend of mine in London is not only gay but a scoutmaster and believe me he is not paedophile and his orientation is known and accepted. The quality of the character is what is important not what a person is.
No matter how noble the BSA's aims are it is still guilty of making a prejudgement of potential leaders and members. It is therefore right that is should be criticised.
And did you know that Robert Baden-Powell like looking at photographs of naked boys? There is no evidence that was was sexual or that he ever did anything about it or that he would somehow be ideal recruiting material for NAMBLA. It was a different age of how things were viewed.
And MJ your suggestion ecnourages ghettoism and also helps to foster the idea that this is an acceptance that gay scouts are not as good as their fellows.
They get away with it because they are a private organisation but that does not mean they should be immune from bing criticised.
Just that the group doesnt want the problems it may mean to an all male group. come on.
quote:
yes it is discrimination but we all discriminate.
quote:
maybe some men feel uncomfortable with men looking at them as potential dates.. it is a young mans group for the most part and they would be looking to meet others to date I assume. they cant say no dating allowed.
After what we went through with the BSA when my son was involved, I wish that the BSA were this concerned with pedophiles.
quote:
why not start a "gay" boy scout group for themself?
First, the BSA is not going to allow a "ga?roup. To be called a "boy scout group", the group must adhere to the BSA policies.
Second...oh...yeah...right...then people wouldn't think it was about getting dates. Sigh.
quote:
see times have changed homosexuals have gotten a position now of a minority and that brings pwoer and say so in America. Which I do not understand how when they are still a relativly small segment of society . ????
To quote the lyrics of Lucy In the Sky With Diamonds...
"Living is easy with eyes closed."
quote:
Im all for live and let live but why does it have to be an issue? why cant private groups say what they want and do not want?
They can. But just like with their rights, others have the right to say, "Not here."
quote:
we all discriminate it is just how and with whom that is different.
I think those lyrics are from Strawberry Fields Forever, but the lyrics to Lucy in the Sky make more sense than discriminating against Boy Scouts. It's the new dynamic liberal agenda bigotry.
Incidently, in my community there was two extremely vocal critics of the BSA policy on gays. The local troops responded with an unofficial "don't ask, don't tell" policy. That still wasn't enough for the critics.
I have no problem with the Boy Scouts. In fact, I was a Cub Scout leader for six years, and a Boy Scout volunteer for some of that time. Three of my five sons were in scouting. On my computer desk is a picture of me with my son on the Oregon Trail on one of our trips.
That being said, scouting is only as strong or weak as the individuals that make it up. I've encountered many fine men and women who were leaders, and many fine young men in the program. I've also come across some first-class jerks...in short, just like everywhere else.
The point has been made that the Boy Scouts are a private organization, and that they have the right to exclude anyone that they want from their private organization.
I agree.
What they don't have the right to do is to expect a public organization like a school to be required to support them through the use of the facilities and access to their students for recruiting.
When I was a Cub Scout, our church sponsored our Pack and the Boy Scout Troop. In many places this is still the rule. Every Pack and Troop must have a sponsoring organization, sometimes a church, sometimes a community organization. When the sponsoring organization does not own a meeting place, the public schools are often used.
quote:
A Scout is “Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, Reverent.” What is wrong with that?
Not a thing. Which of those excludes homosexuality? Objectively, none of them. If you hold certain religious beliefs, you might believe differently, but are all Boy Scouts and their families adherants to those beliefs?
quote:
This summer will commence the national Boy Scout Jamboree. It will be a diverse gathering of people from every geographical region of the country, every ethnicity and race, every economic class, every political belief, and every major religious practice.
I believe that the BSA rule is that no leaders be homosexuals. As far as I know the exclusion does not apply to the scouts themselves.
BSA also has a rule that there must always be at least two leaders present. No adult may be alone with scouts for any reason. On camping trips adults are prohibited from sharing the same tents with scouts.
What they don't have the right to do is to expect a public organization like a school to be required to support them through the use of the facilities and access to their students for recruiting.
In principle, I agree with you.
But then exactly the same rule should apply to every other extracurricular group that wants to use public facilities for little or no cost.
Groups like the Muslim Student Association, etc. If any exclusive group is allowed use of the facilities, either disallow that usage universally, or allow the usage universally. No double standards.
I'm about sick and tired of all this tip toeing around and bending over backwards to be politically correct these days.
If someone doesn't like the way BSA operates, then they should start their own friggin' private club. And get the facts straight before jumping on bandwagons.
We have the Miss Black America, Miss Latina America, Miss Asian America.....and any of those girls are qualified to enter the just plain "Miss America" pageant, but if we were to have a Miss White America pageant it will be all over the news, there would be riots in the streets, mass murders, dogs and cats living together....it would be horrible.
My ex is a sniper. He belongs to a club that's only for snipers. If you don't meet the qualifications, you're not allowed in the club.
Jaycees have to be between 21 and 39 years old.
My mom is a Sweet Potato Queen and that is a VERY particular club! ;)-->
There are all kinds of clubs with membership qualifications and to tell someone they HAVE to accept someone into their private club is just plain wrong. I'm for treating all men and women well and I'm against discrimination, but when it comes to clubs, memberships and "civil rights" I think we've gone too far and The United States of The Easily Offended is rather annoying if you ask me. If someone doesn't want me in their club, I sure as heck don't want to fight to make them "be my friend".
The official BSA policy is not to allow anybody who is openly homosexual to become a member, either as an adult or a boy. I don't know how they define "openly" so you know there are plenty of homosexuals in the Boy Scouts who keep it to themselves. The subject doesn't exactly come up during most troop meetings.
We've had this discussion many times over the past several years with the parents in my sons' scout troop and I have yet to hear a parent say that they would be comfortable sending their son off on a camping trip with an openly gay scout leader. The "two deep leadership" rules should prevent any molestation problems but I still don't think I could accept it. Sometimes leaders' wives come along too. Should your gay scout leader be able to bring his "partner" or whatever. If you allow it, that's the next step and that just doesn't send the right message.
Or how about if there's an openly gay 17-year old in the troop? Would a parent really send their 11-year old son off for a week of summer camp in that situation? How would you handle that? The gay scout has a tent by himself, or would you have to have two to make it work? To me, that sounds no different than letting a straight 17-year old spend a week with the Girl Scouts. Too many problems.
It is a morality issue, no different than if a man who was living with a woman who wasn't his wife wanted to be a leader. That's not the kind of role model a Boy Scout leader is supposed to be.
Geeze, Belle, no need to start making Ghost Busters references. :D-->
I agree more or less with what Oak has said.
As to tip toeing, I don't think that is what is happening a lot of the time. If someone doesn't want homosexuals in a group because of their sexual practices then fine, but don't expect no backlash, don't go stomping around and act as though you are tip toeing. The clubs Belle mentioned were clear about what they were. Sweet Potatoe Queens I would imagine are women that make things with sweet potatoes, Miss Latin America is for Latin women that live in America, Miss America is for all women in America, etc. If there is anyone that needs to change their name it should be the BSA. Why you ask? Because they are not talking about all boys in America that want to be scouts, they should be called heterosexual boyscouts of America. LOL I doubt the parents would be happy about stressing their sons sexuality at the normal boy scout age. This is realy where you are seeing discrimination, not just club rules. Of course, If Oak is right then they don't really discriminate against the kids, but the Den leaders.
Still, it is a PUBLIC school, paid for by nondiscriminatory tax dollars. Therefore they can't or shouldn't allow a group that does discriminate use thier public facilities. There is nothing that should be upsetting about this.
Pirate, I understand what you are saying, it is not an easy issue. But don't you think that it is the kid that is not openly gay that you should be concerned about. Are you not only discriminating now, but also accusing gay teens of being rapests as well? Maybe if you had two or more gay kids in a tent there might be an issue. You are also assuming gay adults are pedophiles. Are these the messages BSA wants to send to thier kids? The fear and lack of understanding of homosexuality is really what seems to be the issue with BSA (and a lot of America in general).
But that really isn't the issue here. They literally can do what they want.
As has been pointed out, there are more heterosexual paedophiles around and who polices them? Most gay people don't exactly know and hang around with paedophiles y'know.
But you simply cannot expect institutions with a policy of openness to turn a blind eye when deciding to sponsor or not. It would compromise their beliefs just as much as the BSA claims that openness would compromise theirs. In most of world scouting this is simply not an issue.
A British scout pledges to honour both God and the Queen, they could be atheist republicans, but as long as they make the pledge and honour the code, no window is made into their souls.
Similar claims of the danger of gay people were made in the British armed forces for decades. Now they are allowed to be in an open about it and the cataclysm to morale that was predicted just did not happen.
I suspect that the BSA attitude is motivated rather less than world scouting attitudes and much more by neocon religious conservatism in the USA itself.
Parents should be able to be secure in knowing the boys won't be exposed to perverts.
There is no guarantee at all in this stance - "naughty" scoutmasters have always surfaced from time - read Brideshead Revisited sometime Ron G.
Mind you you probably think that homosexuals are perverts anyway. What you are really worried about is that this erroneous notion may not be carried on to the next generation.
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TheHighWay
Yes, yes, yes... all excellent points.
BUT... if you speak out of your beliefs that homosexuality is questionable, you ARE a hate group. Period.
These are the times in which we live.
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mj412
I do not get it.
I do not think it means anyone hates homosexuals.
Just that the group doesnt want the problems it may mean to an all male group. come on. really like having girls at all mens club.
yes it is discrimination but we all discriminate. I have cat fur on my couch some of my friends will not come over to my house cause it makes them sneeze and eyes water. or they do not like cats. maybe some men feel uncomfortable with men looking at them as potential dates.. it is a young mans group for the most part and they would be looking to meet others to date I assume. they cant say no dating allowed.
oh i know many will disagree , but I kind of get it seeing it is such an age group of young males and its oath and all.
why not start a "gay" boy scout group for themself?
see times have changed homosexuals have gotten a position now of a minority and that brings pwoer and say so in America. Which I do not understand how when they are still a relativly small segment of society . ????
Im all for live and let live but why does it have to be an issue? why cant private groups say what they want and do not want?
I see no reason for woman to join all men clubs, or for gays to be in a group that doesnt welcome their lifestyle or choices sexualy.
how is that hating? hating to me is not allowing them to be homosexual . period. or not allowing girls to be girls .
we all discriminate it is just how and with whom that is different.
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Jim
It's a free country.
If people disagree with the BSA's stance on gays, they have the right to protest. If a school board feels that it's in the community's best interest to not present the viewpoints of a private organization within it's wall, it's their privilege. If the community feels the school board is not working within their interest, they can recall or not reelect the members.
It's a free country and I don't see a problem.
I have friends that feel that the BSA is a great organization. I'm not so sure and it's not because of the gay issue.
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dmiller
No -- they are not so bad, but the folks judging them are. The skewed values that are being levied against the scouts by the liberal hate groups (yep -- I said that, and you can quote me on it) are just as bad (if not worse) than the accusations made against BSA.
Seems like every last somebody gets to have *diversity* of opinion, until it involves christian morals or conservative thinking. I have no problem with groups distancing themselves from the scouts if they wish to, cause that is their right.
But for them to turn around and say that the scouts are a hate group because they choose to exclude homosexuals from their private organization, makes the accusers the hate group instead.
Highway -- sadly -- this is true. It's a shame that the more upstanding folks don't tell these groups who .... and moan about *gay rights* to take a hike, and allow *diversity* of thought to be enjoyed by all.
This is all just my *IMHO* -- but if you ask me -- diversity seems to be pretty well one-sided, and not diversity by any stretch of the imagination (these days).
David
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TheInvisibleDan
Perhaps if they dressed up in kilts
and started selling cookies
everyone would leave them alone.
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Trefor Heywood
The BSA is out of step with large portions of the rest of the Scouting moverment who see no conflict between the ideals of the movement and homosexuals being members providing they observe the honour code.
A friend of mine in London is not only gay but a scoutmaster and believe me he is not paedophile and his orientation is known and accepted. The quality of the character is what is important not what a person is.
No matter how noble the BSA's aims are it is still guilty of making a prejudgement of potential leaders and members. It is therefore right that is should be criticised.
And did you know that Robert Baden-Powell like looking at photographs of naked boys? There is no evidence that was was sexual or that he ever did anything about it or that he would somehow be ideal recruiting material for NAMBLA. It was a different age of how things were viewed.
And MJ your suggestion ecnourages ghettoism and also helps to foster the idea that this is an acceptance that gay scouts are not as good as their fellows.
They get away with it because they are a private organisation but that does not mean they should be immune from bing criticised.
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CoolWaters
After what we went through with the BSA when my son was involved, I wish that the BSA were this concerned with pedophiles.
First, the BSA is not going to allow a "ga?roup. To be called a "boy scout group", the group must adhere to the BSA policies.
Second...oh...yeah...right...then people wouldn't think it was about getting dates. Sigh.
To quote the lyrics of Lucy In the Sky With Diamonds...
"Living is easy with eyes closed."
They can. But just like with their rights, others have the right to say, "Not here."
Said a mouthful with that one, fer shure...
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johniam
I think those lyrics are from Strawberry Fields Forever, but the lyrics to Lucy in the Sky make more sense than discriminating against Boy Scouts. It's the new dynamic liberal agenda bigotry.
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CoolWaters
OMG!!!!!
Yer right!!!!
Please don't tell my husband that I'm getting so old that I'm confusing Beatles' lyrics!!!!
Sigh.
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mstar1
You mean like when baseball had separate leagues for blacks and whites?
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Jim
Incidently, in my community there was two extremely vocal critics of the BSA policy on gays. The local troops responded with an unofficial "don't ask, don't tell" policy. That still wasn't enough for the critics.
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Oakspear
I have no problem with the Boy Scouts. In fact, I was a Cub Scout leader for six years, and a Boy Scout volunteer for some of that time. Three of my five sons were in scouting. On my computer desk is a picture of me with my son on the Oregon Trail on one of our trips.
That being said, scouting is only as strong or weak as the individuals that make it up. I've encountered many fine men and women who were leaders, and many fine young men in the program. I've also come across some first-class jerks...in short, just like everywhere else.
The point has been made that the Boy Scouts are a private organization, and that they have the right to exclude anyone that they want from their private organization.
I agree.
What they don't have the right to do is to expect a public organization like a school to be required to support them through the use of the facilities and access to their students for recruiting.
When I was a Cub Scout, our church sponsored our Pack and the Boy Scout Troop. In many places this is still the rule. Every Pack and Troop must have a sponsoring organization, sometimes a church, sometimes a community organization. When the sponsoring organization does not own a meeting place, the public schools are often used.
Not a thing. Which of those excludes homosexuality? Objectively, none of them. If you hold certain religious beliefs, you might believe differently, but are all Boy Scouts and their families adherants to those beliefs? I guess not.Link to comment
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def59
If we could get the gay lobby to come down hard on pedophiles, may be we'd trust them when they say there are just like everyone else.
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Oakspear
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Oakspear
I believe that the BSA rule is that no leaders be homosexuals. As far as I know the exclusion does not apply to the scouts themselves.
BSA also has a rule that there must always be at least two leaders present. No adult may be alone with scouts for any reason. On camping trips adults are prohibited from sharing the same tents with scouts.
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Steve!
In principle, I agree with you.
But then exactly the same rule should apply to every other extracurricular group that wants to use public facilities for little or no cost.
Groups like the Muslim Student Association, etc. If any exclusive group is allowed use of the facilities, either disallow that usage universally, or allow the usage universally. No double standards.
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Belle
I'm about sick and tired of all this tip toeing around and bending over backwards to be politically correct these days.
If someone doesn't like the way BSA operates, then they should start their own friggin' private club. And get the facts straight before jumping on bandwagons.
We have the Miss Black America, Miss Latina America, Miss Asian America.....and any of those girls are qualified to enter the just plain "Miss America" pageant, but if we were to have a Miss White America pageant it will be all over the news, there would be riots in the streets, mass murders, dogs and cats living together....it would be horrible.
My ex is a sniper. He belongs to a club that's only for snipers. If you don't meet the qualifications, you're not allowed in the club.
Jaycees have to be between 21 and 39 years old.
My mom is a Sweet Potato Queen and that is a VERY particular club!
;)-->
There are all kinds of clubs with membership qualifications and to tell someone they HAVE to accept someone into their private club is just plain wrong. I'm for treating all men and women well and I'm against discrimination, but when it comes to clubs, memberships and "civil rights" I think we've gone too far and The United States of The Easily Offended is rather annoying if you ask me. If someone doesn't want me in their club, I sure as heck don't want to fight to make them "be my friend".
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Pirate1974
The official BSA policy is not to allow anybody who is openly homosexual to become a member, either as an adult or a boy. I don't know how they define "openly" so you know there are plenty of homosexuals in the Boy Scouts who keep it to themselves. The subject doesn't exactly come up during most troop meetings.
We've had this discussion many times over the past several years with the parents in my sons' scout troop and I have yet to hear a parent say that they would be comfortable sending their son off on a camping trip with an openly gay scout leader. The "two deep leadership" rules should prevent any molestation problems but I still don't think I could accept it. Sometimes leaders' wives come along too. Should your gay scout leader be able to bring his "partner" or whatever. If you allow it, that's the next step and that just doesn't send the right message.
Or how about if there's an openly gay 17-year old in the troop? Would a parent really send their 11-year old son off for a week of summer camp in that situation? How would you handle that? The gay scout has a tent by himself, or would you have to have two to make it work? To me, that sounds no different than letting a straight 17-year old spend a week with the Girl Scouts. Too many problems.
It is a morality issue, no different than if a man who was living with a woman who wasn't his wife wanted to be a leader. That's not the kind of role model a Boy Scout leader is supposed to be.
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lindyhopper
Geeze, Belle, no need to start making Ghost Busters references.
:D-->
I agree more or less with what Oak has said.
As to tip toeing, I don't think that is what is happening a lot of the time. If someone doesn't want homosexuals in a group because of their sexual practices then fine, but don't expect no backlash, don't go stomping around and act as though you are tip toeing. The clubs Belle mentioned were clear about what they were. Sweet Potatoe Queens I would imagine are women that make things with sweet potatoes, Miss Latin America is for Latin women that live in America, Miss America is for all women in America, etc. If there is anyone that needs to change their name it should be the BSA. Why you ask? Because they are not talking about all boys in America that want to be scouts, they should be called heterosexual boyscouts of America. LOL I doubt the parents would be happy about stressing their sons sexuality at the normal boy scout age. This is realy where you are seeing discrimination, not just club rules. Of course, If Oak is right then they don't really discriminate against the kids, but the Den leaders.
Still, it is a PUBLIC school, paid for by nondiscriminatory tax dollars. Therefore they can't or shouldn't allow a group that does discriminate use thier public facilities. There is nothing that should be upsetting about this.
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lindyhopper
Pirate, I understand what you are saying, it is not an easy issue. But don't you think that it is the kid that is not openly gay that you should be concerned about. Are you not only discriminating now, but also accusing gay teens of being rapests as well? Maybe if you had two or more gay kids in a tent there might be an issue. You are also assuming gay adults are pedophiles. Are these the messages BSA wants to send to thier kids? The fear and lack of understanding of homosexuality is really what seems to be the issue with BSA (and a lot of America in general).
But that really isn't the issue here. They literally can do what they want.
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Trefor Heywood
Paedophilia thrives on secretiveness def.
As has been pointed out, there are more heterosexual paedophiles around and who polices them? Most gay people don't exactly know and hang around with paedophiles y'know.
But you simply cannot expect institutions with a policy of openness to turn a blind eye when deciding to sponsor or not. It would compromise their beliefs just as much as the BSA claims that openness would compromise theirs. In most of world scouting this is simply not an issue.
A British scout pledges to honour both God and the Queen, they could be atheist republicans, but as long as they make the pledge and honour the code, no window is made into their souls.
Similar claims of the danger of gay people were made in the British armed forces for decades. Now they are allowed to be in an open about it and the cataclysm to morale that was predicted just did not happen.
I suspect that the BSA attitude is motivated rather less than world scouting attitudes and much more by neocon religious conservatism in the USA itself.
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Ron G.
The Scouts are dedicated to building character, honor, integrity and self motivation in young men.
I can't see where adding the sexual pressures and social pressures of ANY sexual activity should enter into this.
Parents should be able to be secure in knowing the boys won't be exposed to perverts.
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Trefor Heywood
There is no guarantee at all in this stance - "naughty" scoutmasters have always surfaced from time - read Brideshead Revisited sometime Ron G.
Mind you you probably think that homosexuals are perverts anyway. What you are really worried about is that this erroneous notion may not be carried on to the next generation.
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johniam
It will.
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