Whether or not you join an offshoot depends largely on whether you believe
1) the underlying doctrine of TWI is correct
2) you can fix the problems in TWi by breaking away from the parent organization.
FOr moi , No way No how, I want To yank TWI out Twig, Branch, Trunk and root and salt the earth so it will never grow back. TWI doctrine IMO is seriously flawed.
Does that mean I dislike the people who go the offshoots , Absolutely not, It's just we have a serious disagreement about TWi doctrine etal. But that tis the luxury of Leaving TWI ---disagreements are okay.
Perhaps for some. Maybe some offshoots are like a spiritual methadone treatment program. "We will abuse you just a LITTLE bit so you will be more comfortable during withdrawl".
I'm falling over laffing. Ohmygosh. That is so true because it depicts my experience with my second offshoot group. Ohmygosh.
This whole topic reminds me of a joke I once heard.
A man had been marooned on a deserted island for ten years. One day a ship passed by the island and the captain noticed signs of life on the island.
Upon further investigation they discovered that indeed a man was living on the island and they rescued him.
The captain asked the man to show him how he’d survived so long on the island so the man showed him around the island.
“Here’s where I found the best fishing. Here’s where I found the best place to build a hut. Over there is where I cooked my meals, and over here is where I built a church so I could worship God.†The man told the captain.
The captain noticed another building on the other side of the island. “What is that building for?†He asked.
The man said, “That’s my old church but I didn’t agree with the doctrineâ€.
The morale of the story is, as with many things we used to take as unique to TWI this subject similarly is not unique to a post TWI experience. Many people change their denominations dramatically over the course of their lives, many times for good reasons.
Indeed, what we now consider traditional religious institutions were once themselves offshoots of sorts. Can anyone say Martin Luther? His whole movement could have been considered an offshoot of the Catholic Church. I’m sure most of the people who he reached where formerly in the Roman Catholic Church. It stands to reason that there would be some similarities between the early Lutherans and the Catholic Church of that day. Call one of them a Catholic and I’m sure they would have indignantly explained to you why they were actually Lutheran (or whatever they called themselves at this point).
Having a common background or common structure doesn’t make a church simply a clone of the former institution. The point has been well made that each group should measured on it’s own merits. Having a superior attitude isn’t unique to TWI either. I suspect that if you're looking for specific things (i.e. a strict adherence to the doctrine, or a common set of belief’s, or a specific interpretation of the scriptures, etc.) in a religion there are plenty of organizations you could join. After all isn’t this one of the great complications with religion in general?
I don’t have a problem with a group of people clinging to one another after they get out of a bad situation like TWI. I think that’s probably what started many of these groups, measure them on their own merits. Even if the structure seems similar the people involved are just like all of us, flawed. The grace of God will still cover provided we don’t completely remove it (or him) from our thinking.
I have read the bible alot I really do have alot more knowledge than many average christian folks... am I better? no Im not saying that ,it is just I happen to know chapter and verse and when Im discussing what the bible says and they have nO clue what the names of the book even are, I am not willing to educate and that is what it feels like to me.
mj, I know, I was more talking about people who have studied under Drs.So&So (who hold real degrees)who then earned degrees themselves (have real credentials) versus myself who studied under victor wierwille.
Yes, I would suppose if a toll were taken, you could put me into the 99th percentile of those who study the scriptures and also read what other Christians say about certain subjects, but I no longer think that the Christians with degrees in theology are screwed up or that they are deceived (or so stupid) that they can't see what's written in plain sight in the scriptures. Rather, I like to focus on areas that we agree on and no longer expect any group to completely interpret the scriptures exactly as I do in order to enjoy their service or hang out with some of the members.
Now, I'm just talking about ME, and please don't take this as criticism, because I used to feel exactly the same way you do, but something happened after I went to church the first time after leaving my 1st splinter group. The pastor read the verse about leaving your first love, Jesus Christ, and I just bawled like a baby right there in church. My husband just looked at me and didn't know WHAT happened and I just couldn't control it. Anyway that happened, though not as powerfully, everytime I went to any church after that (we were visiting different ones at the time before we started going to the second splinter group). Anyway, I began to read what different prophetic people said about how the Holy Spirit moves and low and behold one of them said one way the H.S. moves is through weeping and that it is indicitive of repentance. That rang true because I knew I was weeping because I had judged other Christians, corporately, so harshly (all of the speakers were trinitarians (oough, bad, right?--wrong--genuine Chrisitans and shepherds within the body of Christ, imho).
So, I'm just sharing some of my journey and how I changed and why. Since then, I no longer sit and listen the same way to a sermon and am not afraid of differences of opinion or doctrine (allowing for the fact that I could be the one who is wrong and that doesn't bother me either because if I am missing a truth somewhere, the H.S. will get around to letting me know when I'm ready to listen). In the meantime, I usually can find something to chew on that meets my need for the moment at any service at any church I attend and thank God for that.
Again, I'm not saying you should feel the way I do, but what you said just struck a chord with the way I used to think.
I think people leaving TWI take some solace in the splinter groups because it gives them a place to hang out before they take on "real life".
Do numbers alone constitute "real life"? Freud called all religions "delusional" because they "remould reality". I think it's comical that he thought he knew what reality was for everybody on earth; but he WASN'T "delusional"? Right.
People in spinoffs make a lot of their own reality just like everybody else. They spend time sleeping, working, eating, socializing, etc. Is their reality not as "legitimate" as others?
I said I do not assume what I believe is right or wrong for anyone.
I am not into the what you call "prophetic people". I think it is anew movement of people thinking they can and do speak for God by the Holy spirit it is really popular right now and growing.
it is makong for great attendence in many groups claiming to bring happiness and peace and whatever to whoever is willing to submit to another telling them what God wants for life or whatever.
Indeed it takes virtual strangers and brings them into a tight bond with this calling and gift to tell one another what they believe is from God.
I think most of it is a scam and a effective one at that.
and personal! people get upset when you do not think they speak for God and they think they do because they tend to have really loyal followers.
I do agree it is an emotiona gut response type of thing.
if it turns you on fo for it. But I will refuse to listen to it.
Now do I think God has phrophets??
YES!!!!!!!
I read in the bible about them and the life they lived most suffered hoorible lifes and had terrible ending and outcomes for speaking for the one High God. many where never accpeted by society at large.
I think they are among us I think they do what God has them do, I think they speak for God, I prayfully hope I have the ears to hear them.
I do not think it takes training and group love and practice to have this happen.
I do not think it is anything a person does not already know.
I do not think everyone can prophetize to anyone .
I do not think a church is needed to have the Holy Spirit move within an individual or a group of individuals , i think it is possble we can witness holiness in church but not necccesarily and by far not the only place God will bless His chosen.
Every organization, no matter what it is, whether business or religion, charity or for profit, has it's positives and negatives, upsides and downsides.
There is an organization - the only organization - that has neither negative nor downside. It is the body of Christ. Not an organization of man, it has the amazing organization of a living organism. It is by joints and bands, having nourishment ministered, knit together with the increase of God. From Christ the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes its own increase unto the edifying of itself in love. In him we are complete. It is God's organic masterpiece. Because it is complete, because it lacks nothing, any organization that man imposes upon it can only detract from its design.
I know; I've heard it before, "But we need organization!" No, that's the point - not MY point, the Word's point - we don't need anything. We are complete.
It's like in the OT, God told man that he would worship on an altar of earth or unhewn stone because when man lifted up his tool upon it, he polluted it. Boom, done, polluted.
You want to lump the organizational work of man together? Lump it all under the category of "polluted." You want to spend your time sorting out the stuff in the polluted lump? Be my guest; not me. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Why spend the time to figure out the intervals between a little leaven in the lump and the whole lump being leavened?
Why? Because we just don't really believe we (not each of us individually, but we) are complete in him. We still think we need something else to organize ourselves with - put a tool to the altar, build God a house, make a law (how about a guideline?), a king (or a president or BOT).
I guess the idea that the body of Christ is complete is just beyond our grasp - you know? The body of Christ would have to be so freakin practically functional, dynamic, independent, powerful, multidimensional, UNTOUCHABLE. Do ya think? Could the body of Christ be all that? The masterpiece of God? Could it be all that? Could it be anything less? Sure it could be less - as soon as man is allowed to yank his tool upon it - then it is no longer untouched. I could go on, but this is a family site & the rest of the story is X-rated as those of you who lived it know.
Yeah; well, I think that's the truth - though those who want to shoot off (verb form of offshoot) will feel the heat of personal offense, "perceiving" the need & preferring the "freedom" to do it THEIR way.
Not meaning to tick anyone off, but that's what I think.
In recognition of Christ, in whom we are complete, the stone of offence, which rolls on.
The one scary part of it to me, is some of them carry the legacy of PFAL-
Mr H. --- The legacy of pfal and twi is NOT the word that it promoted at one time, but the scandals, and the up-heaval (sp?) that followed after docvic died, and martinfail took over.
But then again -- that is (as usual) just an IMHO. :)-->
Well, I was thinking of something a little more subtle, or maybe not so subtle..
The superior claims.. that it is the greatest understanding of the bible since the earth cooled.. still lives on.
As if his version was an actual improvement upon the truth.
The attitude that "I've forgotten more about... than you'll EVER know.."
The self-abasement and thankfulness for ole doc vic's selfless service that gave it all to us.. that somehow, we would be going to hell in a handbasket if it were not for his herculean efforts..
I think this state of mind exists in all of the offshoots, ranging from a tame recognition of the guy who "brought them da verd", to outright fanatical devotion.
I am beginning to really hate religion..
And it is not limited to Der Vey, not by any means.
Look at the Lutherans.. many of them consider Martin Luther to be a saint. Maybe he was just a product of his times, but some of the things he did and wrote are despicable. Huss and many others are just as much their "father in the word" so to speak.
In the offshoots, I'd like to see some more recognition to those that "brought them da verd".
What about Bishop Pillai, George Lamsa, Kenyon, Bullinger, Leonard, Stiles, Walter Cummins, and DOZENS of others that are worth mentioning? These men and women were just as responsible for giving us the Word.
And I would like to see everything documented properly, all the T's crossed, all the i's dotted.. all credit given where credit is due.
The syllabus for their latest and greatest teaching should have probably five or six pages set aside for works cited. At least that's how it is supposed to be done in the real world.
I think they skipped a few steps along the way to claiming superior knowledge.
Don't get me wrong about this though, I still love them, they are brethren.
Da Verd says concerning those who profess that their origin & presence in the Word is of men in 1 Corinthians 3:7 Â So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
Ya'd think in depth Biblical Research people would be able to get that far. It's in your basic concordance under "envy," "strife," and "carnal."
mj, I agree with almost all that you said. I don't go around giving people money to speak a word over me either, but I do believe someone can have a prophetic word over another Christian within the body of Christ.
What I disagree with is people who give prophetic words and then think that makes them a leadah over others and that they have some sort of **special** gift. That's sort of funny because ANY believer, imho, can speak prophetically and if the HS tells you to say something you just say it. No reason to give them money or consider that person your leadah. Ha.
I also think that most of those books could be a lot shorter, but that's just my opinion, and I also think, again, each of them is part of the Body of Christ and therefore at least part of what they say is probably gonna be true. Personally, I don't believe EVERYTHING that ANYONE says, but I do receive gems that are in what any Christian speaks because there usually are some.
People in spinoffs make a lot of their own reality just like everybody else. They spend time sleeping, working, eating, socializing, etc. Is their reality not as "legitimate" as others?
TWI presented a horribly skewed version of life and reality that has impaired the ability of many of its former followers to adjust to life in the general world. While lots of Wayfers were busy pushing the WOW our relatives and friends were busy learning the basic coping skills and addressing day to day problems that accompany existence on this planet (aging parents, chronic illness, financial problems, career).
And they managed to do this without laying the blame on "devil spirits" or some "seed boy".
Nor did they see every challenge life presented as some indication that they were "believing negatively" or that they had played an active role in their general misfortune. No. They sucked it up and dealt with the problems while lots of us Way people pretended we could talk to god and others couldn't. Worse TWI taught that people not willing to stand with TWI were corpses and not worthy of our time should they reject our witness. It didn't matter if it was family members either. This is ironic because its those people who actually learned more about life. This policy isolated us from people who could also teach us alot about getting on with things and accomplishment.
While in TWI I learned alot about mysticism, weird food, slang sex terms, and conspiracy theories but not alot about practical stuff that people outside of TWI took for granted as a necessary thing. Thank God (no pun intended) that I realized it and did something about it.
Lots of people sufferred from arrested development while in TWI.
There were many talented and gifted people who never fully realized their potential because they were moving every year , sometimes more often, and jumping up and down everytime a way leader asked them to. And I wish them well as they begin to dust off and reassemble the dreams and goals that they put aside to serve TWI and its interests.
So what does this have to do with splinters ? Well I've encountered adherents to various offshoots who still very much feel as they did while in TWI - that their fellowship is the only fellowship, that their God is the only god, etc. In many ways being in TWI was like being in suspended anmination relative to the rest of the world and some of the splinters keep that suspension going. They still have the contempt and disdain for people not willing to join up with them. And sure they have a reality but it is solidly molded after Way teaching that doesn't promote a practical outlook on life which includes respect for other human beings and the surrounding community. Thats gonna be a function of the person and the splinter but thus far I haven't encountered many that seem that different from TWI and what it taught. Sure these people and groups are real. No doubt but
do they have independence from the arrogance and
elitism of TWI ? Are they capable of genuine concern for others even if they don't chose to believe in the same religion ? Hopefully the answer is a resounding "yes" though based on my limited experience with splinters that hasn't been the case at all.
I hear you and wholeheartedly agree. We have allowed ourselves to be robbed of so much. When I say that, I'm taking full responsibility for my actions, but also give credit to a faulty way of thinking that I learned in twi that kept the momentum going for so long and kept me in a mental rut.
Me, I've FINALLY gotten a clue, taken some grad school classes, and am getting back into my field at the grad 'ole age of 50 something. Yes, we were terribly out of touch with what was going on the the real world and how to cope with real LIFE. IMHO, all of the splinters that I know about, and there are lots here in Indy, foster codependency in people. They might say they're different doctrinally, but they still operated the same twi way.
Also, it stand to reason that they would operate the same way because the people who run them have never had to make it in the real world and have remained underground, wayworld-lifestyle fashion. They network with others who are their clones and have the same background as themselves, living on the abs of the sheep who come and hear them rehash and regurgitate the same 'ole stale stuff.
But what about the offshoots that are NOT offshoots?
I am acquainted with at least two, and they do not command any significant following- but they do not resemble TWI in any way, shape or form. They like functioning in local churches.
The persons involved have thrown everything away- or view doctrinal differences as being inconsequential in the big scheme of things. They could care less if you believe in the trinity, believe the dead are alive, and refuse to use guilt and intimidation to bully you into accepting their viewpoint.
There might be a different kettle of fish altogether..
When we get together with other GSpotters for beer & BBQ or a wedding or to exceed the two drink limit, are we still considered offshoots, splinters or what have you?
Oooohhhh, Yellow Tail?? Most Excellent Taste, Ham!! :D--> :D--> :D-->
I'm rather fond of Yellow Tail! The Shiraz~Grenache Blend being my absolute favorite! I'm also rather fond of that two finger limit at your brother's. ;)-->
Waterbuffalo, I think we need to go back and look up which Strongs Number is used for the word "offshoot"; see how it was used at that time and if there are any orientalisms about offshoots that we could learn from to definitely come to a conclusion about whether non-offshoots are offshoots or not. :D--> :P-->
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templelady
Whether or not you join an offshoot depends largely on whether you believe
1) the underlying doctrine of TWI is correct
2) you can fix the problems in TWi by breaking away from the parent organization.
FOr moi , No way No how, I want To yank TWI out Twig, Branch, Trunk and root and salt the earth so it will never grow back. TWI doctrine IMO is seriously flawed.
Does that mean I dislike the people who go the offshoots , Absolutely not, It's just we have a serious disagreement about TWi doctrine etal. But that tis the luxury of Leaving TWI ---disagreements are okay.
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waterbuffalo
I'm falling over laffing. Ohmygosh. That is so true because it depicts my experience with my second offshoot group. Ohmygosh.
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dizzydog
This whole topic reminds me of a joke I once heard.
A man had been marooned on a deserted island for ten years. One day a ship passed by the island and the captain noticed signs of life on the island.
Upon further investigation they discovered that indeed a man was living on the island and they rescued him.
The captain asked the man to show him how he’d survived so long on the island so the man showed him around the island.
“Here’s where I found the best fishing. Here’s where I found the best place to build a hut. Over there is where I cooked my meals, and over here is where I built a church so I could worship God.†The man told the captain.
The captain noticed another building on the other side of the island. “What is that building for?†He asked.
The man said, “That’s my old church but I didn’t agree with the doctrineâ€.
The morale of the story is, as with many things we used to take as unique to TWI this subject similarly is not unique to a post TWI experience. Many people change their denominations dramatically over the course of their lives, many times for good reasons.
Indeed, what we now consider traditional religious institutions were once themselves offshoots of sorts. Can anyone say Martin Luther? His whole movement could have been considered an offshoot of the Catholic Church. I’m sure most of the people who he reached where formerly in the Roman Catholic Church. It stands to reason that there would be some similarities between the early Lutherans and the Catholic Church of that day. Call one of them a Catholic and I’m sure they would have indignantly explained to you why they were actually Lutheran (or whatever they called themselves at this point).
Having a common background or common structure doesn’t make a church simply a clone of the former institution. The point has been well made that each group should measured on it’s own merits. Having a superior attitude isn’t unique to TWI either. I suspect that if you're looking for specific things (i.e. a strict adherence to the doctrine, or a common set of belief’s, or a specific interpretation of the scriptures, etc.) in a religion there are plenty of organizations you could join. After all isn’t this one of the great complications with religion in general?
I don’t have a problem with a group of people clinging to one another after they get out of a bad situation like TWI. I think that’s probably what started many of these groups, measure them on their own merits. Even if the structure seems similar the people involved are just like all of us, flawed. The grace of God will still cover provided we don’t completely remove it (or him) from our thinking.
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sadie
Me, An offshoot of TWI? I don't think so. Used in that fashion almost sounds like DNA.
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mj412
honestly that is pretty close. the methodone idea in the off shoot.
lol but seriously.
now that I have to make my own "drug" I notice I am not so rabid without a pusher to tell me I need it.
I look at normal people and wonder how the heck i lived like that and I look at other rabid pushers of christianity and think get away get away !!!!
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Ham
The one scary part of it to me, is some of them carry the legacy of PFAL- some STILL think it is the verd like not revealed since the first century.
That kind of exclusivism does seem to be a rather good breeding ground for abuse.
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waterbuffalo
mj, I know, I was more talking about people who have studied under Drs.So&So (who hold real degrees)who then earned degrees themselves (have real credentials) versus myself who studied under victor wierwille.
Yes, I would suppose if a toll were taken, you could put me into the 99th percentile of those who study the scriptures and also read what other Christians say about certain subjects, but I no longer think that the Christians with degrees in theology are screwed up or that they are deceived (or so stupid) that they can't see what's written in plain sight in the scriptures. Rather, I like to focus on areas that we agree on and no longer expect any group to completely interpret the scriptures exactly as I do in order to enjoy their service or hang out with some of the members.
Now, I'm just talking about ME, and please don't take this as criticism, because I used to feel exactly the same way you do, but something happened after I went to church the first time after leaving my 1st splinter group. The pastor read the verse about leaving your first love, Jesus Christ, and I just bawled like a baby right there in church. My husband just looked at me and didn't know WHAT happened and I just couldn't control it. Anyway that happened, though not as powerfully, everytime I went to any church after that (we were visiting different ones at the time before we started going to the second splinter group). Anyway, I began to read what different prophetic people said about how the Holy Spirit moves and low and behold one of them said one way the H.S. moves is through weeping and that it is indicitive of repentance. That rang true because I knew I was weeping because I had judged other Christians, corporately, so harshly (all of the speakers were trinitarians (oough, bad, right?--wrong--genuine Chrisitans and shepherds within the body of Christ, imho).
So, I'm just sharing some of my journey and how I changed and why. Since then, I no longer sit and listen the same way to a sermon and am not afraid of differences of opinion or doctrine (allowing for the fact that I could be the one who is wrong and that doesn't bother me either because if I am missing a truth somewhere, the H.S. will get around to letting me know when I'm ready to listen). In the meantime, I usually can find something to chew on that meets my need for the moment at any service at any church I attend and thank God for that.
Again, I'm not saying you should feel the way I do, but what you said just struck a chord with the way I used to think.
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johniam
Do numbers alone constitute "real life"? Freud called all religions "delusional" because they "remould reality". I think it's comical that he thought he knew what reality was for everybody on earth; but he WASN'T "delusional"? Right.
People in spinoffs make a lot of their own reality just like everybody else. They spend time sleeping, working, eating, socializing, etc. Is their reality not as "legitimate" as others?
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excathedra
thank you for your responses.... still reading
:)-->
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mj412
I said I do not assume what I believe is right or wrong for anyone.
I am not into the what you call "prophetic people". I think it is anew movement of people thinking they can and do speak for God by the Holy spirit it is really popular right now and growing.
it is makong for great attendence in many groups claiming to bring happiness and peace and whatever to whoever is willing to submit to another telling them what God wants for life or whatever.
Indeed it takes virtual strangers and brings them into a tight bond with this calling and gift to tell one another what they believe is from God.
I think most of it is a scam and a effective one at that.
and personal! people get upset when you do not think they speak for God and they think they do because they tend to have really loyal followers.
I do agree it is an emotiona gut response type of thing.
if it turns you on fo for it. But I will refuse to listen to it.
Now do I think God has phrophets??
YES!!!!!!!
I read in the bible about them and the life they lived most suffered hoorible lifes and had terrible ending and outcomes for speaking for the one High God. many where never accpeted by society at large.
I think they are among us I think they do what God has them do, I think they speak for God, I prayfully hope I have the ears to hear them.
I do not think it takes training and group love and practice to have this happen.
I do not think it is anything a person does not already know.
I do not think everyone can prophetize to anyone .
I do not think a church is needed to have the Holy Spirit move within an individual or a group of individuals , i think it is possble we can witness holiness in church but not necccesarily and by far not the only place God will bless His chosen.
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Tom
Catcup
There is an organization - the only organization - that has neither negative nor downside. It is the body of Christ. Not an organization of man, it has the amazing organization of a living organism. It is by joints and bands, having nourishment ministered, knit together with the increase of God. From Christ the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes its own increase unto the edifying of itself in love. In him we are complete. It is God's organic masterpiece. Because it is complete, because it lacks nothing, any organization that man imposes upon it can only detract from its design.
I know; I've heard it before, "But we need organization!" No, that's the point - not MY point, the Word's point - we don't need anything. We are complete.
It's like in the OT, God told man that he would worship on an altar of earth or unhewn stone because when man lifted up his tool upon it, he polluted it. Boom, done, polluted.
You want to lump the organizational work of man together? Lump it all under the category of "polluted." You want to spend your time sorting out the stuff in the polluted lump? Be my guest; not me. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Why spend the time to figure out the intervals between a little leaven in the lump and the whole lump being leavened?
Why? Because we just don't really believe we (not each of us individually, but we) are complete in him. We still think we need something else to organize ourselves with - put a tool to the altar, build God a house, make a law (how about a guideline?), a king (or a president or BOT).
I guess the idea that the body of Christ is complete is just beyond our grasp - you know? The body of Christ would have to be so freakin practically functional, dynamic, independent, powerful, multidimensional, UNTOUCHABLE. Do ya think? Could the body of Christ be all that? The masterpiece of God? Could it be all that? Could it be anything less? Sure it could be less - as soon as man is allowed to yank his tool upon it - then it is no longer untouched. I could go on, but this is a family site & the rest of the story is X-rated as those of you who lived it know.
Yeah; well, I think that's the truth - though those who want to shoot off (verb form of offshoot) will feel the heat of personal offense, "perceiving" the need & preferring the "freedom" to do it THEIR way.
Not meaning to tick anyone off, but that's what I think.
In recognition of Christ, in whom we are complete, the stone of offence, which rolls on.
Tom
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dmiller
Mr H. --- The legacy of pfal and twi is NOT the word that it promoted at one time, but the scandals, and the up-heaval (sp?) that followed after docvic died, and martinfail took over.
But then again -- that is (as usual) just an IMHO.
:)-->
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Ham
Well, I was thinking of something a little more subtle, or maybe not so subtle..
The superior claims.. that it is the greatest understanding of the bible since the earth cooled.. still lives on.
As if his version was an actual improvement upon the truth.
The attitude that "I've forgotten more about... than you'll EVER know.."
The self-abasement and thankfulness for ole doc vic's selfless service that gave it all to us.. that somehow, we would be going to hell in a handbasket if it were not for his herculean efforts..
I think this state of mind exists in all of the offshoots, ranging from a tame recognition of the guy who "brought them da verd", to outright fanatical devotion.
I am beginning to really hate religion..
And it is not limited to Der Vey, not by any means.
Look at the Lutherans.. many of them consider Martin Luther to be a saint. Maybe he was just a product of his times, but some of the things he did and wrote are despicable. Huss and many others are just as much their "father in the word" so to speak.
In the offshoots, I'd like to see some more recognition to those that "brought them da verd".
What about Bishop Pillai, George Lamsa, Kenyon, Bullinger, Leonard, Stiles, Walter Cummins, and DOZENS of others that are worth mentioning? These men and women were just as responsible for giving us the Word.
And I would like to see everything documented properly, all the T's crossed, all the i's dotted.. all credit given where credit is due.
The syllabus for their latest and greatest teaching should have probably five or six pages set aside for works cited. At least that's how it is supposed to be done in the real world.
I think they skipped a few steps along the way to claiming superior knowledge.
Don't get me wrong about this though, I still love them, they are brethren.
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Tom
Da Verd says concerning those who profess that their origin & presence in the Word is of men in 1 Corinthians 3:7 Â So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
Ya'd think in depth Biblical Research people would be able to get that far. It's in your basic concordance under "envy," "strife," and "carnal."
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waterbuffalo
mj, I agree with almost all that you said. I don't go around giving people money to speak a word over me either, but I do believe someone can have a prophetic word over another Christian within the body of Christ.
What I disagree with is people who give prophetic words and then think that makes them a leadah over others and that they have some sort of **special** gift. That's sort of funny because ANY believer, imho, can speak prophetically and if the HS tells you to say something you just say it. No reason to give them money or consider that person your leadah. Ha.
I also think that most of those books could be a lot shorter, but that's just my opinion, and I also think, again, each of them is part of the Body of Christ and therefore at least part of what they say is probably gonna be true. Personally, I don't believe EVERYTHING that ANYONE says, but I do receive gems that are in what any Christian speaks because there usually are some.
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diazbro
TWI presented a horribly skewed version of life and reality that has impaired the ability of many of its former followers to adjust to life in the general world. While lots of Wayfers were busy pushing the WOW our relatives and friends were busy learning the basic coping skills and addressing day to day problems that accompany existence on this planet (aging parents, chronic illness, financial problems, career).
And they managed to do this without laying the blame on "devil spirits" or some "seed boy".
Nor did they see every challenge life presented as some indication that they were "believing negatively" or that they had played an active role in their general misfortune. No. They sucked it up and dealt with the problems while lots of us Way people pretended we could talk to god and others couldn't. Worse TWI taught that people not willing to stand with TWI were corpses and not worthy of our time should they reject our witness. It didn't matter if it was family members either. This is ironic because its those people who actually learned more about life. This policy isolated us from people who could also teach us alot about getting on with things and accomplishment.
While in TWI I learned alot about mysticism, weird food, slang sex terms, and conspiracy theories but not alot about practical stuff that people outside of TWI took for granted as a necessary thing. Thank God (no pun intended) that I realized it and did something about it.
Lots of people sufferred from arrested development while in TWI.
There were many talented and gifted people who never fully realized their potential because they were moving every year , sometimes more often, and jumping up and down everytime a way leader asked them to. And I wish them well as they begin to dust off and reassemble the dreams and goals that they put aside to serve TWI and its interests.
So what does this have to do with splinters ? Well I've encountered adherents to various offshoots who still very much feel as they did while in TWI - that their fellowship is the only fellowship, that their God is the only god, etc. In many ways being in TWI was like being in suspended anmination relative to the rest of the world and some of the splinters keep that suspension going. They still have the contempt and disdain for people not willing to join up with them. And sure they have a reality but it is solidly molded after Way teaching that doesn't promote a practical outlook on life which includes respect for other human beings and the surrounding community. Thats gonna be a function of the person and the splinter but thus far I haven't encountered many that seem that different from TWI and what it taught. Sure these people and groups are real. No doubt but
do they have independence from the arrogance and
elitism of TWI ? Are they capable of genuine concern for others even if they don't chose to believe in the same religion ? Hopefully the answer is a resounding "yes" though based on my limited experience with splinters that hasn't been the case at all.
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waterbuffalo
Diazbro,
I hear you and wholeheartedly agree. We have allowed ourselves to be robbed of so much. When I say that, I'm taking full responsibility for my actions, but also give credit to a faulty way of thinking that I learned in twi that kept the momentum going for so long and kept me in a mental rut.
Me, I've FINALLY gotten a clue, taken some grad school classes, and am getting back into my field at the grad 'ole age of 50 something. Yes, we were terribly out of touch with what was going on the the real world and how to cope with real LIFE. IMHO, all of the splinters that I know about, and there are lots here in Indy, foster codependency in people. They might say they're different doctrinally, but they still operated the same twi way.
Also, it stand to reason that they would operate the same way because the people who run them have never had to make it in the real world and have remained underground, wayworld-lifestyle fashion. They network with others who are their clones and have the same background as themselves, living on the abs of the sheep who come and hear them rehash and regurgitate the same 'ole stale stuff.
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Ham
But what about the offshoots that are NOT offshoots?
I am acquainted with at least two, and they do not command any significant following- but they do not resemble TWI in any way, shape or form. They like functioning in local churches.
The persons involved have thrown everything away- or view doctrinal differences as being inconsequential in the big scheme of things. They could care less if you believe in the trinity, believe the dead are alive, and refuse to use guilt and intimidation to bully you into accepting their viewpoint.
There might be a different kettle of fish altogether..
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Ham
Maybe that's why they don't have a real big following too. Just not "comfortable" for someone just leaving TWI..
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Belle
When we get together with other GSpotters for beer & BBQ or a wedding or to exceed the two drink limit, are we still considered offshoots, splinters or what have you?
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Ham
Well.. I dunno. But I think throwing away the two drink limit probably fixes everything..
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Ham
Belle, when I went to visit my brother this year, the yellowtail flowed like water..
I think they have a two finger limit.
If they hold up two fingers, and you can't count that high, you've probably had a LITTLE too much.
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waterbuffalo
Hamm, if they go to a local church, they aren't offshoots, then, are they?
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Belle
Oooohhhh, Yellow Tail?? Most Excellent Taste, Ham!!
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
I'm rather fond of Yellow Tail! The Shiraz~Grenache Blend being my absolute favorite! I'm also rather fond of that two finger limit at your brother's.
;)-->
Waterbuffalo, I think we need to go back and look up which Strongs Number is used for the word "offshoot"; see how it was used at that time and if there are any orientalisms about offshoots that we could learn from to definitely come to a conclusion about whether non-offshoots are offshoots or not.
:D--> 
:P-->
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