Hey guys~ thanks for all the words of wisdom.... I think the real issue is a two parter.. what to tell friends and
what to tell leadership. You're right, I don't need to tell them anything, but we like to conduct ourselves in a respectful, polite manner, whether it's recipricol or not. So, the questions would be really statements of fact and why we aren't going anymore,
end of story. For our friends, well, WE love them, and I think most have heard an earful here and there to be around after we leave. Most of the reasons people are still there (the ones that have been in a long time) are so use to the doctrine, to change is so foreign. I mean only Jehovah's W and us teach jCisNG, so where would they go?(*generally, i know offshoots ect.. ) They haven't even considered the fact that some doctrine is wrong! They know the "practice" is sure lacking, but the doctrine? no way! So, you all gave me a nice start, of course how it all plays out when I am in the midst of it is a whole nother story Thanks everyone, and you can keep it coming......
Hey Frank--that is pretty much the response we got, too, from all our 'friends.' Though a few have contacted us over the years. We were thoroughly trashed by our ol' buddy the HFC, adn the 'Tender" LC took care of those who chose to inquire about us, I heard.
yeah Frank...being "outside the household" made me, by definition, wrong...unsound mind and all that.
My wife at the time was still "in" when I was kicked out. It made resolving disagreements between us very easy for her: she was right, I was wrong, since she was "in the household" and I wasn't.
I gotta ask..."why are you spending one more day in? What are you waiting for? I may have missed some level of explanation, but I am curious why you are dragging this out.
Please take this with compassion but - Get on with your life...get out now.
You know, I am sorry that this stuff had happend to you guys. It sucks. I think piting spouses against eachother (or kids for that matter) is about the worst thing they could've done to folks. I was totally guilty of thinking evil of those that walked away, only doing(blindly obedient) what I was taught. But over the years and unfortuatly it has taken time, we realized that people who left are "believers" too, and everything just didn't make sense anymore. Especially the more we made the Word OUR own and not just studying a class syllabi, we could'nt make some of the Way doctrine fit.
I believe God makes a way to escape for all of us, and keeps making them until we wake up and see the door open.I have had to confront this "going back to vomit" thinking with many friends, so I am not going out without a fight.
Why? Well I have lots of Family still in and I had to share with my hubby all the stuff I am learning. It has taken time for this to SINK in, he's been born and bread Way Ministry. But, we just finished (yesterday) the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse and it was very helpful. We will see what steps we are going to take over the next few weeks or so.
absofriiginlutely bliss, you are in a unique position to educate and enlighten folks.
You will be able to communicate with folks who would not give anyone else the time of day...God can use you to provide those answeres...
I understand, one miss step and you close down all lines of communications.....shut out as evil, trying to lure them into darkness...
I know, I remember the mindset. I wasn`t allowed to talk to anybody who had been to the John L, Ralph D, meeting that was in our area in 86 for fear that we would become spiritually contaminated......In all likelyhood, we were told that these people who simp[ly went to the meeting were now posessed.
I have read some of your other posts and I am sorry you carry so much hurt. I know posting can be theraputic..... I know God can heal your heart and give you the peace you so desire.
Most of the reasons people are still there (the ones that have been in a long time) are so use to the doctrine, to change is so foreign. I mean only Jehovah's W and us teach jCisNG, so where would they go?(*generally, i know offshoots ect.. ) They haven't even considered the fact that some doctrine is wrong! They know the "practice" is sure lacking, but the doctrine? no way!
I still know of many who stay because of the doctrine. I know one (who was booted out of the corps by the current corps coord and came home telling me twi was a damn cult) who still stays for that very reason. That person saw many bad things happen in twi but still continues to stay blinded over doctrine.
Let's say that twi had all doctrine right, but they continue with actions of the past. Their doctrine is nill if it isn't being practiced. Remember martinfart saying practical error ALWAYS leads to doctrinal error? It was that very thing that kept ringing in my ears until I decided to depart. Boy, he had a HUGE beam in his eye!! Thanks, Craig, for helping me make my decision. :)-->
When I first left, the JCNG thing was a HUGE issue in my mind. When I started to realize I needed to be in a loving environment where Christ (NOT an absent one) was preached, I started to get healing and understanding.
Yeah...you guys that are still on the fringe...walk away...simply walk away from it. Family still in? Walk away diplomatically ;)-->.
How else can families be pulled out of the cluthes of this insideous cult? It would be nice to see entire families walk away, but that is not always the case...Sometimes it takes the first family member to walk away...and then comes a second and a third...
Don't forget that when the Beatles were all spellbound by the Marinisha (or whoever), it was Ringo that called bull.... on the whole thing and went home alone...the others soon followed. Food for thought. ...
...But even if your other family members stay in twi...it's better for you to be out. Plain and simple...each individual makes their own choices.
BLiss, you asked for 10 questions..here's my shot at it.. you may not like them..but hey.. I'm SINCERE!
1. Do you really believe in devil spirits?
2. Why haven't any tongues ever, really been proven to be real? (likewise, other miracles) not saying they aren't, but still, why?
3. Why do you have to check your intellectual integrity at the door to get into this place?
4. Why are all the other sincere, talented Christian Bible scholars "idiots?"
5. Why couldn't the great man of God with all the gift ministries and manifestations and first-century-dunamis-in-the-twentieth-century-like-we've-never-seen-before manage to keep his penis in his married pants?
6. Why didn't Victor give credit where credit was due? (it's a family value)
7. Why were Rev's with serious pastoral responsiblites so woefully unprepared to fulfill their work before being sent out?
8. Why was Victor defrocked? ("defrocked" is to have one's ordination credentials rescinded). The lack of information (silence) from his former denominational authorities, the UCC is very suspicious. It almost certainly was not doctrine - that hearing would have been public.
9. Why was TWI's vitality so dependent on a person?
Hi everyone... I don't post much here anymore, but when it comes to the top ten list, there is something already on the forum in the editorial section...
It appears in a somewhat rough form because of a few typos that did not get edited out in its HTML form. But the content is still OK and surprisingly still current.
Jesus Christ's "sniff test" is still the best way to separate the wheat from the chaff. Look at the fruit. If the fruit is bad, then the whole tree is bad no matter what it looks like on the surface. And for those who think that they can better that organization by staying in it, good luck! Unless you have received "technicolor revelation" you might be wasting your time...
1. Since you were told that Martindale's "one time affair" was in the past, and that he had "handled the situation according to the Word", and he was even named head of research, why was he kicked out?
2. Since, in so many situations, perhaps upwards of 95% of all situations where one spouse was kicked out or put on probation, both were kicked out, even if only one was "off the Word", why was Donna allowed to stay in, and given a position of honor?
3. Since the writings of former Way leaders such as John Lynn, Peter Wade and Walter Cummins, and even music from Joyful Noise, Pressed Down, etc, was removed from the Way bookstore due to negative influences, why is The Rise & Expansion of the Christian Church in the First Century by Martindale still being used?
4. The Way often claims that there is nowhere else that The Word is being taught to discourage people from leaving. Since there are offshoot ministries that teach virtually the same thing, why do they still make this claim?
5. Since large parts of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today, among other writings, is lifted almost word-for-word from other authors, and virtually all of what is in Power for Abundant Living is derived from other sources, how can Wierwille have claimed that he was teaching the Word of God as it hadn't been taught since the First Century?
6. If Wierwille believed the promise that God supposedly made to him, that he would teach the Word to Wierwille as it hadn't been taught since the First Century if he would only teach others, why was he ready to "chuck it all" in 1951 (?) when he went down to Tulsa and learned to speak in tongues?
7. If Chris Geer and those who followed him out the door are so devilish, and the Passing of the Patriarch is so "off the Word", why did all three Trustees sign it and write remarks in the margins that they agreed with it?
8. An hour with a Young's concordance will show that none of the Hebrew words that Martindale "defines" in his teaching on The Original Sin of Mankind" in WayAP carry a sexual connotation, why then is this nonsense still being taught?
9. Show me a text that has "God" as the first word. Not a translation or a paraphrase. A text. After you fail to find one; why is it taught that it is?
10. Why does a ministry that promotes research, and supposedly teaches the skills to "work the Word" make statements like "we haven't found a text, but it has to be that way?
I know this is a difficult time for you but consider keeping it very simple.
You don't agree with their legalistic doctrine that is biased to certain people and not others. You don't like the favoritism and hurt that they have caused to other people. You and hubby really want Jesus Christ as Head of the Church again and Lord in your lives.
Anyway....usually innies are scared to ask outties about their reasons for leaving (weak faith does that).
If one asks that's a real good sign.
Just let them know:
- you still love them (give um a hug!)
- and that you both should agree that life has twists and turns of all kinds that the Good Shepherd can negotiate.
-and that "God is good"
[or "life is good" for all you no-good atheists] :)-->
- odd but true - you have to Witness to THEM now! You can do so by doing good works... volunteer at a hospice or a food pantry... tutor kids ... be a literacy volunteer ["Voluntering is the rent we pay for community"]
In the end your reasons for leaving need to be just that...YOUR REASONS. If they don't make sense to someone else, tough. You don't owe anyone an explanation.
Now if you want to try and wake a few people up in the process that is another story. I think some of Geeks points in his paper are very good in terms of confronting the problems of TWI part Duh but leave some very foudational doctrinal issues out of the equation. That is fine, but for many current wayfers LCM is in the past and now they are working for a greener grass TWI part TWOt. They won't care. I think Oak's questions are some very good general questions that approach TWI ministry as a whole and the problems with how they run their business and treat their people. Those are legitamate questions. They may or may not have justified these things for themselves already.
If you want to confront issues such as plagiarism that takes even more time if you want proof. It is very easy for many of us here that already don't like the ministry to believe what anonymous voices on the internet say because over time we have come to trust their internet persona. But to the "skeptic of skeptics" believer you are going to need more that just the word of an avatar. This can take time. Time you could be wasting going to a fellowship twice a week.
So here is my suggestion:
If these are people that really are close with you and the TWI has really become "nicer" then, tell them you are leaving in the simplest terms as possible and let them know in a way that keeps that closeness intact. Then do your studying and you ex-way thesis. Keep the lines of communication open as long as it makes you comfortable, but as soon as it makes you uncomfortable or as soon as you are spending all you time arguing with these folk, let them go for a while.
Keep in mind their state of mind. I have recently reopened communication regarding twi with an innie relative that is a leader. I am treading softly right now and it is tough. This person is not stupid and is not a waybot. The person is not unlike me and your husband- in from an early age- knows little else (biblically). There are still a lot of sensitive issues that won't be discussed in the form of a top ten. They will need to be brought up over time. This is a difficault process to figure out for me- what to bring up first and how. I want the communication to flow and I want to be respectful but I don't want to hold back, although in someways it is neccessary at this time.
So in short
Good luck.
Get out.
(Oh, just gave myself away with that language of possession)
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bliss
Hey guys~ thanks for all the words of wisdom.... I think the real issue is a two parter.. what to tell friends and
what to tell leadership. You're right, I don't need to tell them anything, but we like to conduct ourselves in a respectful, polite manner, whether it's recipricol or not. So, the questions would be really statements of fact and why we aren't going anymore,
end of story. For our friends, well, WE love them, and I think most have heard an earful here and there to be around after we leave. Most of the reasons people are still there (the ones that have been in a long time) are so use to the doctrine, to change is so foreign. I mean only Jehovah's W and us teach jCisNG, so where would they go?(*generally, i know offshoots ect.. ) They haven't even considered the fact that some doctrine is wrong! They know the "practice" is sure lacking, but the doctrine? no way! So, you all gave me a nice start, of course how it all plays out when I am in the midst of it is a whole nother story
Thanks everyone, and you can keep it coming......
bliss
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frank123lol
Iknow I sounded harsh,but you know what? No one
that I know that is still "in" even wanted an
explanation I was automatically wrong for thinking something different than what the "household" believes.
I was told I would be out there,fair game for the adversary waving my dingaling in Gods face!
Well it is not true,Prosperity has come thank
God and I know they are wrong.
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Bramble
Hey Frank--that is pretty much the response we got, too, from all our 'friends.' Though a few have contacted us over the years. We were thoroughly trashed by our ol' buddy the HFC, adn the 'Tender" LC took care of those who chose to inquire about us, I heard.
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Oakspear
yeah Frank...being "outside the household" made me, by definition, wrong...unsound mind and all that.
My wife at the time was still "in" when I was kicked out. It made resolving disagreements between us very easy for her: she was right, I was wrong, since she was "in the household" and I wasn't.
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TaylorCompany
Bliss,
I gotta ask..."why are you spending one more day in? What are you waiting for? I may have missed some level of explanation, but I am curious why you are dragging this out.
Please take this with compassion but - Get on with your life...get out now.
respectfully,
TC
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bliss
You know, I am sorry that this stuff had happend to you guys. It sucks. I think piting spouses against eachother (or kids for that matter) is about the worst thing they could've done to folks. I was totally guilty of thinking evil of those that walked away, only doing(blindly obedient) what I was taught. But over the years and unfortuatly it has taken time, we realized that people who left are "believers" too, and everything just didn't make sense anymore. Especially the more we made the Word OUR own and not just studying a class syllabi, we could'nt make some of the Way doctrine fit.
I believe God makes a way to escape for all of us, and keeps making them until we wake up and see the door open.I have had to confront this "going back to vomit" thinking with many friends, so I am not going out without a fight.
bliss
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bliss
Hahahah funny TC.
Why? Well I have lots of Family still in and I had to share with my hubby all the stuff I am learning. It has taken time for this to SINK in, he's been born and bread Way Ministry. But, we just finished (yesterday) the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse and it was very helpful. We will see what steps we are going to take over the next few weeks or so.
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rascal
Good for you Bliss! Maybe you will be able to aid someone in their quest for answeres.
Maybe you will plant those seeds that will later germinate, aiding yet another in their escape from twi.
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TaylorCompany
Bliss,
Wasn't meaning to be funny, just trying to understand. I know what you mean about family, we still have family in, and its not easy.
TC
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bliss
ya Rascal, but it is treading on ice ya know?
Very thin ice. So I choose carefully.
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bliss
TC
Looks like you are a newbie?
What did you do?
Laughter is the only way I can get through all of this, so sorry for misunderstanding your typing!
:o-->
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rascal
absofriiginlutely bliss, you are in a unique position to educate and enlighten folks.
You will be able to communicate with folks who would not give anyone else the time of day...God can use you to provide those answeres...
I understand, one miss step and you close down all lines of communications.....shut out as evil, trying to lure them into darkness...
I know, I remember the mindset. I wasn`t allowed to talk to anybody who had been to the John L, Ralph D, meeting that was in our area in 86 for fear that we would become spiritually contaminated......In all likelyhood, we were told that these people who simp[ly went to the meeting were now posessed.
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bliss
Rascal
I have read some of your other posts and I am sorry you carry so much hurt. I know posting can be theraputic..... I know God can heal your heart and give you the peace you so desire.
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rascal
I agree Bliss and thanks....
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bliss
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Nottawayfer
I still know of many who stay because of the doctrine. I know one (who was booted out of the corps by the current corps coord and came home telling me twi was a damn cult) who still stays for that very reason. That person saw many bad things happen in twi but still continues to stay blinded over doctrine.
Let's say that twi had all doctrine right, but they continue with actions of the past. Their doctrine is nill if it isn't being practiced. Remember martinfart saying practical error ALWAYS leads to doctrinal error? It was that very thing that kept ringing in my ears until I decided to depart. Boy, he had a HUGE beam in his eye!! Thanks, Craig, for helping me make my decision.
:)-->
When I first left, the JCNG thing was a HUGE issue in my mind. When I started to realize I needed to be in a loving environment where Christ (NOT an absent one) was preached, I started to get healing and understanding.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Yeah...you guys that are still on the fringe...walk away...simply walk away from it. Family still in? Walk away diplomatically
;)-->.
How else can families be pulled out of the cluthes of this insideous cult? It would be nice to see entire families walk away, but that is not always the case...Sometimes it takes the first family member to walk away...and then comes a second and a third...
Don't forget that when the Beatles were all spellbound by the Marinisha (or whoever), it was Ringo that called bull.... on the whole thing and went home alone...the others soon followed. Food for thought.
...
...But even if your other family members stay in twi...it's better for you to be out. Plain and simple...each individual makes their own choices.
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Juan Cruz
BLiss, you asked for 10 questions..here's my shot at it.. you may not like them..but hey.. I'm SINCERE!
1. Do you really believe in devil spirits?
2. Why haven't any tongues ever, really been proven to be real? (likewise, other miracles) not saying they aren't, but still, why?
3. Why do you have to check your intellectual integrity at the door to get into this place?
4. Why are all the other sincere, talented Christian Bible scholars "idiots?"
5. Why couldn't the great man of God with all the gift ministries and manifestations and first-century-dunamis-in-the-twentieth-century-like-we've-never-seen-before manage to keep his penis in his married pants?
6. Why didn't Victor give credit where credit was due? (it's a family value)
7. Why were Rev's with serious pastoral responsiblites so woefully unprepared to fulfill their work before being sent out?
8. Why was Victor defrocked? ("defrocked" is to have one's ordination credentials rescinded). The lack of information (silence) from his former denominational authorities, the UCC is very suspicious. It almost certainly was not doctrine - that hearing would have been public.
9. Why was TWI's vitality so dependent on a person?
10. Why did the chairs need to be 'strung'?
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Research Geek
Hi everyone... I don't post much here anymore, but when it comes to the top ten list, there is something already on the forum in the editorial section...
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/editorial/top-ten-list.htm
It appears in a somewhat rough form because of a few typos that did not get edited out in its HTML form. But the content is still OK and surprisingly still current.
Jesus Christ's "sniff test" is still the best way to separate the wheat from the chaff. Look at the fruit. If the fruit is bad, then the whole tree is bad no matter what it looks like on the surface. And for those who think that they can better that organization by staying in it, good luck! Unless you have received "technicolor revelation" you might be wasting your time...
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Oakspear
1. Since you were told that Martindale's "one time affair" was in the past, and that he had "handled the situation according to the Word", and he was even named head of research, why was he kicked out?
2. Since, in so many situations, perhaps upwards of 95% of all situations where one spouse was kicked out or put on probation, both were kicked out, even if only one was "off the Word", why was Donna allowed to stay in, and given a position of honor?
3. Since the writings of former Way leaders such as John Lynn, Peter Wade and Walter Cummins, and even music from Joyful Noise, Pressed Down, etc, was removed from the Way bookstore due to negative influences, why is The Rise & Expansion of the Christian Church in the First Century by Martindale still being used?
4. The Way often claims that there is nowhere else that The Word is being taught to discourage people from leaving. Since there are offshoot ministries that teach virtually the same thing, why do they still make this claim?
5. Since large parts of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today, among other writings, is lifted almost word-for-word from other authors, and virtually all of what is in Power for Abundant Living is derived from other sources, how can Wierwille have claimed that he was teaching the Word of God as it hadn't been taught since the First Century?
6. If Wierwille believed the promise that God supposedly made to him, that he would teach the Word to Wierwille as it hadn't been taught since the First Century if he would only teach others, why was he ready to "chuck it all" in 1951 (?) when he went down to Tulsa and learned to speak in tongues?
7. If Chris Geer and those who followed him out the door are so devilish, and the Passing of the Patriarch is so "off the Word", why did all three Trustees sign it and write remarks in the margins that they agreed with it?
8. An hour with a Young's concordance will show that none of the Hebrew words that Martindale "defines" in his teaching on The Original Sin of Mankind" in WayAP carry a sexual connotation, why then is this nonsense still being taught?
9. Show me a text that has "God" as the first word. Not a translation or a paraphrase. A text. After you fail to find one; why is it taught that it is?
10. Why does a ministry that promotes research, and supposedly teaches the skills to "work the Word" make statements like "we haven't found a text, but it has to be that way?
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Oakspear
Thanks geek
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LornaDoone
Dear Bliss,
I know this is a difficult time for you but consider keeping it very simple.
You don't agree with their legalistic doctrine that is biased to certain people and not others. You don't like the favoritism and hurt that they have caused to other people. You and hubby really want Jesus Christ as Head of the Church again and Lord in your lives.
Please keep us posted, you are in our prayers.
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Juan Cruz
Bliss,
Lorna speak great wisdom.
Anyway....usually innies are scared to ask outties about their reasons for leaving (weak faith does that).
If one asks that's a real good sign.
Just let them know:
- you still love them (give um a hug!)
- and that you both should agree that life has twists and turns of all kinds that the Good Shepherd can negotiate.
-and that "God is good"
[or "life is good" for all you no-good atheists]
:)-->
- odd but true - you have to Witness to THEM now! You can do so by doing good works... volunteer at a hospice or a food pantry... tutor kids ... be a literacy volunteer ["Voluntering is the rent we pay for community"]
- I pray all your loved ones see the light
and pull their heads out of their....
Bless you,
Juan
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lindyhopper
In the end your reasons for leaving need to be just that...YOUR REASONS. If they don't make sense to someone else, tough. You don't owe anyone an explanation.
Now if you want to try and wake a few people up in the process that is another story. I think some of Geeks points in his paper are very good in terms of confronting the problems of TWI part Duh but leave some very foudational doctrinal issues out of the equation. That is fine, but for many current wayfers LCM is in the past and now they are working for a greener grass TWI part TWOt. They won't care. I think Oak's questions are some very good general questions that approach TWI ministry as a whole and the problems with how they run their business and treat their people. Those are legitamate questions. They may or may not have justified these things for themselves already.
If you want to confront issues such as plagiarism that takes even more time if you want proof. It is very easy for many of us here that already don't like the ministry to believe what anonymous voices on the internet say because over time we have come to trust their internet persona. But to the "skeptic of skeptics" believer you are going to need more that just the word of an avatar. This can take time. Time you could be wasting going to a fellowship twice a week.
So here is my suggestion:
If these are people that really are close with you and the TWI has really become "nicer" then, tell them you are leaving in the simplest terms as possible and let them know in a way that keeps that closeness intact. Then do your studying and you ex-way thesis. Keep the lines of communication open as long as it makes you comfortable, but as soon as it makes you uncomfortable or as soon as you are spending all you time arguing with these folk, let them go for a while.
Keep in mind their state of mind. I have recently reopened communication regarding twi with an innie relative that is a leader. I am treading softly right now and it is tough. This person is not stupid and is not a waybot. The person is not unlike me and your husband- in from an early age- knows little else (biblically). There are still a lot of sensitive issues that won't be discussed in the form of a top ten. They will need to be brought up over time. This is a difficault process to figure out for me- what to bring up first and how. I want the communication to flow and I want to be respectful but I don't want to hold back, although in someways it is neccessary at this time.
So in short
Good luck.
Get out.
(Oh, just gave myself away with that language of possession)
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