Knocking on My Door

[Belle]

Brother, they're probably better team players and more interested in taking care of the whole unit and not just those they judge to be "worthy" of their assistance.

Well, heck, why WOULD TWI have very many people in the military?? Y'all are over there helping God-forsaken sinners better themselves and live peacefully. They don't deserve that kind of support ..... unless they want to truly change and sign up for this great Bible class I know.... ;)

[Galen]

I have served with many LDS.

Generally I have always found them to be respectible. Numerous LDS have found me to be a close friend.

[Allan]

Well Templelady..the problem with the BOM is that it was meant to have been 'divinely TRANSLATED into English therefore it should not be 'full of errors' and yet it is.

Literally sweating 'great drops of blood' as stated in BOM for example is one of them ! It was great drops of sweat LIKE as of blood, which even some of the diehard VPW haters will probably admit is more correct.

Old Testament people having 'faith' is another one, we know that faith 'came' with Jesus !

Seems Joseph Smith didn't translate it very well, neither did he take dying pretty well either, taking members of public 'out' with a handgun before he was moblynched !!

[Brother Speed]

Allan,

Joseph Smith died because he preached what he believed.

vpw died because he didn't believe what he preached.

[templelady]

Well Templelady..the problem with the BOM is that it was meant to have been 'divinely TRANSLATED into English therefore it should not be 'full of errors' and yet it is.

So YOU say

Put then I think VPW was full of errors

Literally sweating 'great drops of blood' as stated in BOM for example is one of them ! It was great drops of sweat LIKE as of blood, which even some of the diehard VPW haters will probably admit is more correct.

The clinical term is "hematohidrosis."

Please see the following link -- LDS aren't the only Chrsitians who believe it to be true

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t018.html

Old Testament people having 'faith' is another one, we know that faith 'came' with Jesus !

please read Hebrews 11

the word faith throughout this chapter is the Greek word pistis

Seems Joseph Smith didn't translate it very well,

I give you your opinion

neither did he take dying pretty well either, taking members of public 'out' with a handgun before he was moblynched !!

the "members of public" was a 200+ mob armed with bayonets and rifles that stormed an upstairs room with one door and one window and four men held there. Joseph Smith fired out through the door, the same door which moments before the mob had shot through killing his brother. Hyrum died in Josephs arms.

I don't know of a single person who when faced with death woulld not defend themselves, their family and friends.

Edited September 30, 2005 by templelady

[Allan]

As I said..Joseph Smith claimed to have had the book of Mormon 'divinely translated' into English.

Therefore..either God made some errors..or Joseph Smith was a liar..sorry..there's realy no other way to put it !!

[LG]

As I said..Joseph Smith claimed to have had the book of Mormon 'divinely translated' into English.

Therefore..either God made some errors..or Joseph Smith was a liar..sorry..there's realy no other way to put it !!

I'm not about to defend Mormon doctrine, but that's a false dichotomy. If you apply it to the Bible as I think you claim it purports to be (literally and entirely the infallible word of God, given by direct revelation), then either God made some errors or some of the writers were liars. In both cases, there are other possibilities that you exclude.

Edited September 30, 2005 by LG

[templelady]

the problem with the BOM is that it was meant to have been 'divinely TRANSLATED into English

Just when was this claim Made???

Joseph smith clearly states in the forward to the BOM

"and now if there are faults, they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be spotless a the judgement seat of Christ"

Allan I don't care that you disagree with me, It isn't my goal to convert you (although IMO it does seem to be your goal to convert ME)

What really annoys me is that it is very clear that you've never read the BOM for yourself, all you are doing is spouting phrases from ant-mormon literature.

Before this goes any further, perhaps it would help if you actually took the time to find out for yourself what the BOM does or doesn't say.

I mean that is what VPW said to do isn't it?? Find out for yourself???

[excathedra]

i know some really great catholics

[Allan]

Actually I have read the 'book' and as I said, full of errors..Joseph Smith claimed to have found 'golden tablets' with strange writing on them.The angel Moroni supposedly interpreted them INTO ENGLISH.

We KNOW that due to language translations etc..the 'Bible' we have today can expect to have 'translational' errors etc.. in them..but as I said the book of Mormon was supposedly translated DIRECTLY into english for Joseph Smith.

Of course the 'tablets' then mysteriously disappeared !!

I won't even bother with their 'doctrinal' errors like married forever in heaven to the person you marry here on earth ( their 'temple' wedding of course) totally contradicts what Jesus said about marriage in heaven when asked !!

Sorry Templelady but what a crock..

btw..Joseph Smith didn't really believe what he preached when it came to the crunch and he proved it by killing people to try and save his own skin.

And also on Galens thread about the church, the early Mormons killed 'unbelievers' as 'happily' as the early Catholic church did !!

[templelady]

I wonder what ever happened to those tablets Moses brought down from Sinai.

Or all the books that are referred to in the OT where the histories of the various judges and kings are written--Guess we better chuck the OT too.

Oh yeah--that is what VPW taught isn't it???

Every other Christian Church teachs death is the end of the family. Despite what they say about seeing our loved ones in heaven--what they MEAN is you see your loved ones at the judgement and then they are gone forever. A doctrine that teaches part of your reward is going through the pain of losing your loved ones all over again--- THAT IMO is a crock.

The knowledge that heaven will be with God his Son Jesus Christ and all your family is is what I find most comforting about the LDS faith

Joseph Smith didn't really believe what he preached when it came to the crunch and he proved it by killing people to try and save his own skin

I am still totally confused as to where you get the idea that self-defense of oneself and others is un Christian

the early Mormons killed 'unbelievers' as 'happily' as the early Catholic church did !!

And as for killing --better revisit the Salem witchcraft trials, Konx's Scotland, Calvin's Geneva, THe Missouri of Governer Boggs etal--good Protestants all

Persons who happen to be LDS who kill who they percieve as "unbelievers" IS NOT the same thing as the LDS church advocating the killing of "unbelievers"

Unlike a certain organization and its offshoots who are known for such pronouncements as "God won't spit in your direction" "you'll be greaspots before midnight" "if you leave the household your family will die" as well as several suspicious deaths over the years

I really think that People, like yourself Allan , who espouse these organizations and their views should't be throwing stones at myself or anyone else.

[Belle]

Mo,

I just want to say you are the epitome of class and grace. :)

Watching the "sermons" on here has shown the true character of some people and your character, I really like and respect.

Sermons We See

Edgar Guest

I'd rather see a sermon

than hear one any day;

I'd rather one should walk with me

than merely tell the way.

The eye's a better pupil

and more willing than the ear,

Fine counsel is confusing,

but example's always clear;

And the best of all the preachers

are the men who live their creeds,

For to see good put in action

is what everybody needs.

I soon can learn to do it

if you'll let me see it done;

I can watch your hands in action,

but your tongue too fast may run.

And the lecture you deliver

may be very wise and true,

But I'd rather get my lessons

by observing what you do;

For I might misunderstand you

and the high advice you give,

But there's no misunderstanding

how you act and how you live.

When I see a deed of kindness,

I am eager to be kind.

When a weaker brother stumbles

and a strong man stays behind

Just to see if he can help him,

then the wish grows strong in me

To become as big and thoughtful

as I know that friend to be.

And all travelers can witness

that the best of guides today

Is not the one who tells them,

but the one who shows the way.

One good man teaches many,

men believe what they behold;

One deed of kindness noticed

is worth forty that are told.

Who stands with men of honor

learns to hold his honor dear,

For right living speaks a language

which to every one is clear.

Though an able speaker charms me

with his eloquence, I say,

I'd rather see a sermon

than to hear one, any day.

[Bramble]

I did have two elderly JW ladies at my door, asking for one of my kids, which kind of freaked me out. In the pagan community around here kids under eighteen have to have a parental unit along for permission--not just a note. Didn't care for that, kid is only 11. Kid is not supposed to answer door for strangers, even old ladies with Bibles. Busted!

[Allan]

Come on Templelady talk reasonably..we're talking thousands of years with the tablets of Moses in foreign countries and a hundred or two with these 'golden tablets' in the Mid-West !!

The Bible talks about parts of the memory being erased when it comes to the annihilation of unsaved loved ones, no more tears, the memory of them is forgotten.

Otherwise that would mean Hitlers mom, Osama Bin Ladens' mom (if she became a LDS) would expect to be with their family forever !!

This is where the illogicalness of 'feelings and emotions' begin to take over the truth of Gods' Word.

That is why the Mormons are also right into 'baptisms by proxy' (baptism for the dead) and geaneoligies which btw God said to steer away from..!!

Thanks for the 'discussion' I think enough has been revealed.

[WordWolf]

What did the possible doctrinal accuracy or inaccuracy of the Book of Mormon

have to do with two people at Belle's door?

It had nothing to do with the discussion-practice and altruism.

It's almost as if someone dragged a doctrinal discussion to be quarrelsome

and demonstrate doctrinal superiority over someone.

Belle already pointed out the utter uselessness of barking demands

and swaggering over someone,

when compared with "if your enemy hungers, feed him"....

There's a difference between RECITING Scripture and LIVING Scripture.

Of course, my saying so no more changes the thread than the fight commentator

changes the course of the boxing match.

Before I even posted, enough was revealed.

[templelady]

What I have most enjoyed about this thread is seeing how many Non-LDS have positive things to say about the LDS they have come in contact with.

Even if we disagree doctrinally it is good to know that the "light of Christ" continues to shine through the people who follow him-no matter what thier chosen faith.

[Oakspear]

My last contact with LDS missionaries coming to my door was about 2 years ago. I was waiting for a load of laundry and invited them in. After a lively discussion, they gave me a copy of the Book o0f Mormon and suggested I read some passages. They checked back in a few days to see what I thought, and were very respectful of my decision to not believe what they did.

A week or so later, my car battery was dead. I spotted the two LDS guys walking by and asked if they had a car. When they responded affirmatively, I asked if they could jump start my car, which they cheerfully agreed to do. They did not bring up their previous attempts to win me to their religion, nor my refusal.

Nice guys

[Allan]

The whole point Templelady was to check your own 'backyard' before 'poohpoohing' what 'others' may believe as per taught previously in TWI.

Some of you others..if you weren't in TWI for the Word, what were you in it for ??!!

Some of you post like you never believed any of it whilst you were 'in' ?

So what parts did you read Oakspear and what part didn't you agree with ?

[Belle]

BACK OFF BUBBA!!!!

You want to argue different religions then start your own thread!

You're trying to get into a doctrinal discussion which belongs in the DOCTRINAL SECTION where you have been invited on numerous occasions. Why don't you ever post down there, Alan? Embarrassed??? Afraid???? Ashamed???? Just too ignorant??? Just too uncivilized??? Been asked by CFF to quit embarrassing them or to disassociate yourself from them???

I think it's all of the above.

This thread was NOT started to discuss what YOU think is wrong with someone's beliefs. Quite the contrary, it was to tell someone how Christ-like some gentlemen in HER religion were and what good examples they were.

You would do well to take some lessons from these people, especially Mo, who has so graciously answered your vicious and uncalled for attacks.

You would NEVER have anyone post about how kind and loving you are, much less that because of your attitude you inspired someone to learn more about the god (lowercase intended) that YOU represent.

I hope that no one continues dialog with this waste of breath life on my thread that was to be uplifting and non-doctrinal in nature.

[dmiller]

BACK OFF BUBBA!!!!

You want to argue different religions then start your own thread!

Heh heh heh -- or take your arguement here instead. ;)

Edited October 2, 2005 by dmiller

[Allan]

I 'hope' you're still receiving counselling Belle !!

Again..just the hypocricy of people in other churches continuing to throw the same old stones whilst sitting in their sunday pew 'drinking in' their own doctrinal garbage..and Belle..wrong on all of those flippant little comments of yours as well !!

[dmiller]

I 'hope' you're still receiving counselling Belle !!

Again..just the hypocricy of people in other churches continuing to throw the same old stones whilst sitting in their sunday pew 'drinking in' their own doctrinal garbage..and Belle..wrong on all of those flippant little comments of yours as well !!

Allan -- I have an honest question for you, ok?? :)

Aren't you doing the same thing?? I'm not trying to belittle, castigate, or any of that other *good* stuff, but I am trying to show you that you are doing the same that you accuse others of doing.

Like I said before --- try being kind with hospitality, and forget the animosity. No one ever (in their right mind) will respond to hostile attacks in a positive vein. I know for a fact I would not.

If your message is important enough to you to get across to others, do yourself a favor, and deliver your message seasoned with grace, love, and understanding. While it may not be totally accepted, it will surely be received in a more favorable light.

And if it is received in a more favorable light, folks will be more willing to hear what you have to say.

David

(edited to put my name by what I said.) :)

Edited October 3, 2005 by dmiller

[Oakspear]

So what parts did you read Oakspear and what part didn't you agree with ?

I didn't read much, I could go downstairs and get the copy that they gave me and find the verses that they asked me to read if I thought it was worth the effort, and if I thought your question was something other than a pretext to attack templelady & the Mormons.

I'll tell you this, though. Whatever they gave me to read, they obviously thought that the written words, aided by a prayerful attitude of seeking, would convince me that Mormonism was the "one true church"...or something like that.

By that time in my life I was no longer interested in basing my life on a book of any kind.

Edited October 3, 2005 by Oakspear

[templelady]

LDS Are like anyone else --sometimes we blow it

But we are exhorted to be loving , kind, supportive and of service to everyone, not only fellow LDS

I am glad that so many of you have had such good experiences with my fellow LDS

I am glad to have you as friends even though we have never met (except for CW and Digi)

I want it known that LDS are just as happy to report their enriching and happy experiences with non LDS as you are to report your experiences

[mstar1]

just the hypocricy of people in other churches continuing to throw the same old stones whilst sitting in their sunday pew 'drinking in' their own doctrinal garbage

Of which you are the chief Allan

Edited October 3, 2005 by mstar1