What I do regret is staying in for soooo long. I regret taking what VPW taught ABOVE God. I deeply regret taking what LCM SAID above God.
See, in my opinion, and in the TWI I remember, it was MEN who were worshipped - Bible worship would have been refreshing, because at least it would have been closer to God. Maybe now that TWI has a *different* president it's more like Bible worship, but from what I remember....
Well, how do you explain the analogy of the covered bridge into the Promised Land? That ain't in the Bible - that was from a man - a revered (oh, GAG) man.
What about the term "marked and avoid" and HOW it was used? Again, a man taught that and misused it.
I could go on - and I'm sure many of you could, too.
The God that TWI (VPW) introduced me to was one more worthy of worship than the one that was presented to me later on in the form of a balding Okie.
You have some good points here, Chas. We did worship the men and that is precisely, imo, why TWI fits the definition of a cult. Heck, even today, there are still people who worship vee pee and craiggers. Many more who worship vee pee and insist he could do no wrong when it comes to teaching the Bible.
They forget that doctrinal error leads to practical error and we have tons upon tons of practical error. That is, unless vee pee was wrong about doctrinal error leading to practical error, but....naw.....vee pee never taught anything wrong.
Well I can stand with Belle on this. Anyone that would stand with a person that would Rape and pillage in the name of God. I can't like, respect or trust that person. Real simple dude. If you like what Hitler did or any aspect of what he did, You can expect the same responce. Bottom line he did not care who he hurt in the name of God. Just as long as his wallet was lined and his pleasures where met.
I still love reading Proverbs and do respect it greatly, even tho' the author murdered raped and pillaged in the name of God.
Come on WordWolf..you're 'pulling a bit of a longbow' on this one arntcha !
TL insisted that I refrain from replying to her comments, but that only proves my point that her and a couple of others expect to be able to fire off salvos about people and their beliefs without wanting to be taken to task for what they have said.
TL stated that I knew nothing about Mormonism..she was wrong, so I responded to it..
Getting the picture ?
Geesh, thats me off this thread, it's almost become something out of a 'desperate housewives' episode.!
TL insisted that I refrain from replying to her comments
When???
It is also interesting that when Belle gets upset, 'up pops' Temple Lady from out of the blue ![/quote]When did I at anytime state that I posted because Belle was upset or because Belle posted
They are not worshipped, they are not used as cattle prods to keep us in bondage (which is how TWI used the Bible) And Temple Lady, the Mormons have the same amount of reverence for their 'Book of Mormon' 'Pearl of great price' as TWI'ers or exTWI'ers have for the King James, o.k
Please explain when and how I said that LDS do not have reverence for scripture--reverence is not the same as worship
Temple Lady..I know enough of the Mormon religion to know that it is even more outlandish than 95 percent of the other world religions..Christs return to happen in America, a seperate heaven especially for Mormons, a Mormon being able to be baptised for Hitler, Genghis Khan, etc..etc.. but it is up to Hitler and co. (who are currently waiting in the spirit world) if they want to accept the salvation or not ! I could go on and on but I guess I've made my point. Nothing against you, just the utter B/S Joseph Smith
I know enough of the Mormon religion... well you who know "enough" first of all its not the Mormon religion --we don't worship Mormon- he was the compiler (not writer) of the Book of Mormon we are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints or LDS As for the rest of this diatribe--half truths and outright distortions of truth do not the truth make. But you already know that--it's just the old way brain creeping to the fore. Since I no longer agree with TWI that puts me outside and fair game for any potshots you as a PFAL and VPW supporter cares to take
Thank you both for your support it is much appreciated I'm not one of the 'handkerchief wringing, thanks for your support fellowposters' type of greasespot member !![/quote]No you're definitely not--appreciation for anything beyond your viewpoint is completely beyond your grasp
some of these people are just 'pretending' to be 'simpletons' because it 'suits' their antagonistic attitude, I know it is frustrating.
Not agreeing with YOU does not a simpleton make nor does not sharing your beliefs make one antagonistic--It is you Allen who launch into diatribes and justifications while spewing your hatred of all who disagree with your viewpoint all over the boards. If it was just me who found you objectionable it would be one thing--but posters who I don't agree with on many points find you just as objectionable that should tell you something--and no it is not the message you carry that is the problem it is the attitude with which you carry it
They cant get over the fact that some posters have the right to hold onto a lot of what Doc Vic taught, I think it disturbs them greatly (I don't really know why).[/quote]Not half as much as my being LDS apparently upsets YOU
What I think is 'sad' is posters like Belle denigrating things to a 'personal level'
Denigrating things to a personal level is indeed sad So when do YOU plan to stop
TL insisted that I refrain from replying to her comments
When???
It is also interesting that when Belle gets upset, 'up pops' Temple Lady from out of the blue !
When did I at anytime state that I posted because Belle was upset or because Belle posted
They are not worshipped, they are not used as cattle prods to keep us in bondage (which is how TWI used the Bible) And Temple Lady, the Mormons have the same amount of reverence for their 'Book of Mormon' 'Pearl of great price' as TWI'ers or exTWI'ers have for the King James, o.k
Please explain when and how I said that LDS do not have reverence for scripture--reverence is not the same as worship
Temple Lady..I know enough of the Mormon religion to know that it is even more outlandish than 95 percent of the other world religions..Christs return to happen in America, a seperate heaven especially for Mormons, a Mormon being able to be baptised for Hitler, Genghis Khan, etc..etc.. but it is up to Hitler and co. (who are currently waiting in the spirit world) if they want to accept the salvation or not ! I could go on and on but I guess I've made my point. Nothing against you, just the utter B/S Joseph Smith
I know enough of the Mormon religion... well you who know "enough" first of all its not the Mormon religion --we don't worship Mormon- he was the compiler (not writer) of the Book of Mormon we are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints or LDS As for the rest of this diatribe--half truths and outright distortions of truth do not the truth make. But you already know that--it's just the old way brain creeping to the fore. Since I no longer agree with TWI that puts me outside and fair game for any potshots you as a PFAL and VPW supporter cares to take
Thank you both for your support it is much appreciated I'm not one of the 'handkerchief wringing, thanks for your support fellowposters' type of greasespot member !!
No you're definitely not--appreciation for anything beyond your viewpoint is completely beyond your grasp
some of these people are just 'pretending' to be 'simpletons' because it 'suits' their antagonistic attitude, I know it is frustrating.
Not agreeing with YOU does not a simpleton make nor does not sharing your beliefs make one antagonistic--It is you Allen who launch into diatribes and justifications while spewing your hatred of all who disagree with your viewpoint all over the boards. If it was just me who found you objectionable it would be one thing--but posters who I don't agree with on many points find you just as objectionable that should tell you something--and no it is not the message you carry that is the problem it is the attitude with which you carry it
They cant get over the fact that some posters have the right to hold onto a lot of what Doc Vic taught, I think it disturbs them greatly (I don't really know why).
Not half as much as my being LDS apparently upsets YOU
What I think is 'sad' is posters like Belle denigrating things to a 'personal level'
Denigrating things to a personal level is indeed sad So when do YOU plan to stop
"The peace of God that keeps our hearts is based on our thinking these things, on having an abundance of the Bible in our minds."
More is better? Could be. Although a lot of a little bit is better than a lot of nothing, that's for sure.
Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.
2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
This is even more meaningful if a person believes they're "born again" of God's spirit, carrying that treasure around in this life.
Jesus taught - to be like our Father in heaven and to return a blessing against a curse. Not me, of course, I get to do what I want, He'll understand <_< But everyone else, yes? We temper each other's tempers that way. Everyone has their moments, adding fuel to the fire burns everyone. Why are we at odds? I don't know. What if someone at some point said, fine. No more. In a perfect world if we were all we wanted to be, I'd be here to help you and you me, I'd hope. I'm laying my sword down. It hurts too much to hurt you. I'm just not going to do it anymore. You do whatever you choose.
Here. Here's mine. Everybody gets to stay. :unsure:
Since allen has been taking notes from Mike on how to change every friggin' thread he posts on to being all about him and the whole topic has been shot to #e11:
Now, you've got a track record of picking fights with posters and derailing
threads. So, what might be an innocent question from ONE poster is
often a LOADED question from you.
That's why TL BEGAN with a disclaimer, so that she expressed a desire NOT to pick a fight.
Your response?
You picked a fight.
TL asked you not to continue, and you chose to do so anyway.
THEN you called everyone who disagreed with you "mockers and criticizers", which WAS meant as an inflammatory phrase, then accused OTHERS of making it personal.
That's got all the internal integrity of
"I don't understand why all you peckerwoods, rednecks, and hayseeds gotta take everything so personal!
You're almost as touchy as the niggers, jigaboos, spooks and spearchuckers-they get angry every time I post!
They must object to the substance of my argument."
It's okay for allen to call people names, follow them around the boards just so he can attack their beliefs, but GAWD FORBID someone challenge him on HIS beliefs. He can't even have a normal, civilized discussion - it always comes down to namecalling, attacking, changing the thread to be about him and denigrating the subject while never contributing anything of value to the conversation.
This, folks, is who is representing the TWI-offshoots - THIS is who lurkers see as representative and ambassadors for the offshoots, especially those that affiliate with allen's. Is THIS the example you really want them to see? Is this REALLY how all of you think? You want people like this and allen and the others like him representing your image?
That's why so many people stay in TWI - why change names when you can get the same treatment where you are? It just feeds the TWIt myth that "there's nothing better out there". The elitism must be stifling and suffocating unless you're the one getting to eat off the china plates all the time.
edited to add: this is my last comment on allan. I have requested that he be censored by the moderators and would like to request that others do the same if you find him as offensive as I have. His new handle is being added to my ignore list as well.
Anthing you say will far outweigh what any self inflated pinhead will say, I think almost everyone here would vouch for that.Youve shown yourself over a span of time to have great breadth and depth of understanding and care and aheart of gold--
Yeah, but the problem with the ignore feature is that it's still an open forum. Anybody can post their input. So if you have someone on ignore and they post something in response to something you posted, other posters can see what the poster you have on ignore posted, but you can't. And if other posters respond to that poster then you are in the dark because you don't know what they're talking about and everybody else does plus they're probably talking about you or something you originally posted and you wouldn't want to be in the dark about that.
In THAT light, putting people on ignore is at best, sticking your head in the sand like an ostrich, and at worst, saying in effect, "If I can't get my way, I'm going to take my ball and go home!"
Yeah, but the problem with the ignore feature is that it's still an open forum. Anybody can post their input. So if you have someone on ignore and they post something in response to something you posted, other posters can see what the poster you have on ignore posted, but you can't. And if other posters respond to that poster then you are in the dark because you don't know what they're talking about and everybody else does plus they're probably talking about you or something you originally posted and you wouldn't want to be in the dark about that.
Wrong assumptions, John. Some of us don't care what certain posters have to say and already know, for the most part WHAT they're going to say anyway - which is nothing of value. I really and truly don't give a rat's whisker about what some people on here have to say whether it's a response to something I posted, a personal attack on me or otherwise.
They are free to post like you said, and I'm free to ignore them.
In THAT light, putting people on ignore is at best, sticking your head in the sand like an ostrich, and at worst, saying in effect, "If I can't get my way, I'm going to take my ball and go home!"
Actually, it's good for not wasting time and for not getting sucked into petty infantile arguments and unnecessarily getting my blood boiling. Nothing certain people post is worth considering, responding to or even acknowledging. It's not the ostrich in their case - it's not allowing these people to waste my time. ;)
Saying that people are neurotic, need to take a pill, those kinds of statements - that's wrong IMO, plain wrong. It's degrading and simply shouldn't be done on a board where people are trying to be open and honest about what they're thinking. Not even commenting to what they've said and simply branding it as neurotic babblings is wrong, does nothing to help the perception of the problem and only comes off as a nasty comment.
If someone reacted to me that way I'd ask them to stop and try to discuss it. I'm not inclined to endless arguing - live and let live works for me. Disagree? Bring it on, I'm your huckleberry. Use terms like that to belittle and insult me? Forget it.
If it continued to where I felt someone might do it at any time, I'd hit that ignore button in a heartbeat. It isn't worth it to come to this board, which is just a "cyber-spot" for posting our thoughts, and risk exposure to that kind of name calling. The ignore is available. So are these.
I agree with Socks, Belle, and Mstar about the ignore feature. What possible value is there in reading the spewth from those posters that just tear people down with insults? Really, I don't know how they remain on the boards, anyway. Must be the lack of 'report this post to the moderator' buttons.
In the Way, they use the Bible for their personal advantage.
I'm catholic but my wife is involved in The Way.
Now, after over two years of discussions and with the help of God, she start to understands how is the real soul of The Way.
The Way is not Christian and their God it isn't our God. Catholic, protestant, Ortodossi...we have different point of view about the doctrine of course but our God is the same God and this is important.
The Bible isn't GOD. The bible, the Word, is a a gift for all the people ( belivers and not belivers).
I am so sorry for my english... It is very hard for me try to explain how is my personal view of the Way.
If you have any documents, any suggestions to help me and my wife, please feel free to contact me.
I second what Rascal said. It's superb that your wife is still married to you since here in the US those kinds of marriages are generally not allowed. There are exceptions, but not many.
It also sounds like you have a strong relationship where you can discuss these kinds of things. That's great! You seem to already being doing things correctly with regards to loving your wife and gently helping her to see where TWI's priorities and allegiences are. It just takes time - a lot of time in some cases - and the fact that she's responding to your observations is very encouraging.
How long has she been involved with TWI? How much time does she spend with others involved with TWI? Does she do things and have friends who are not involved with TWI?
The more you can get her to spend time with people who are not involved with TWI, the better. It really helps get a different perspective on things when you spend time with others who do have different beliefs.
I'm not sure how well this would go over, but if you can find the book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" and if she would be open to reading it, I think it would open her eyes to how TWI twists scriptures to control and manipulate people. It was not written by anyone involved with TWI and it doesn't mention TWI anywhere in the book, so hopefully she would be receptive to reading it. Maybe don't tell her why you want her to read the book, just that someone recommended it and you wanted to read it with her.
I think WordWolf nailed this one saying: "The Bible should never be used as a substitute for God.
The Bible-regardless of what certain criminals said-is not God,
and never was. The Bible MAKES KNOWN God.
Anything that MAKES KNOWN God should never be confused
for God HIMSELF. This leads to worshipping the created thing
rather than the CREATOR. (Romans 1.)
The brass serpent was raised in the wilderness, at the direction
of God Almighty. It was very useful, and was meant for
healing from the God that heals. So, that showed an aspect
of God for the people, YHWH-Rapha, YHWH Who Heals.
However, some people later worshipped the brass serpent.
What was the proper response then?
Trash it and smash it to pieces.
It was now leading people AWAY FROM GOD."
What WordWolf described is a subtle process [which I think happens quite often unbeknownst to leaders and followers of many Bible-based groups] – that is the pathway to idolatry. "Webster's New World College Dictionary" defines "idolatry" as "excessive devotion to or reverence for some person of thing." Speaking for myself – I was a great idolater in my TWI days. I remember the devotion I had to VPW, LCM, and other stooges and the high and holy position that I had elevated PFAL stuff to – being on par with Scripture! I had lots of idols.
This can be a tricky one to catch – because it happens in our heads. Ezekiel 14: 6, 7 mentions this, "…This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices! When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his HEART…" Idolatry is an "inside job." It reminds me of Jesus' comments on adultery in Matthew 5: 27 & 28 – he said if anyone looks at a woman lustfully they have already committed adultery. It starts in the heart.
That somehow makes me think of a johniam's quote in this thread: "People look at a Playboy centerfold to become sexually aroused, and people look at the bible to see God revealed. There, see it?" Maybe there is some truth in that. For a guy, the nice thing about looking at a Playboy Centerfold is that he doesn't have to worry about any relationship with the woman in the picture. There's no messy emotional involvement or commitment required of him by the picture. Maybe sometimes we do the same thing with the Bible. We read it, get an idea of what God is like, seeing Him from a distance, and go no further in developing a relationship with Him. And so we have a fantasy [idol] of having a relationship with that picture of God – a relationship based on our own rules. That's why for me being a study-bug I have to remind myself sometimes that the Bible is a means to an end [connecting with God] and not an end in itself [becoming a Bible Know-it-All].
My wife started her experience in the way in 1994.
I meet her in 2002.
She didn't explain to me her doctrine immediatly but after 4/5 mounths.
In the beginning I went to the fellowship and I discussed with her about their doctrine.
In the same time I started my research in the web to find informations about the way and their leaders. (I found your site 1 year ago).
In 2 years, step by step, with love and patience, my wife life ( and also my life) is changed.
Now, we go in the way's felloship toghether but not like the first time. The way leaders try to separeted me and my wife but I love my wife and she love me and both, we have a very big and true love for God.
My wife and me, togheter, we have confronted and wins the enemy
Now she have new friends not involved in the way. She uses her beautiful mind and she dosn't asks to the way local leader how to procede in her life.
"Victor Paul Wierwille and the Way International" of J. L. Williams is also a good book. I found it on E Bay and she start to read it few mounths ago.
I looking for documents to show her the economic investemts and the "turn-over" of the way. The Way isn't a biblical group but is a company where few bad people thanks to the ingenuousness of other people take their personal profit. I think is the most frightening and wretched of the sins.
Good on your wife Plinio ! The Way had one of their leaders call my wife on the phone to get her to leave me( it was actually her brother). She told them that I was still her husband, the father of her children and for The way to go take a hike, God bless our strong ladies !!
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Belle
You have some good points here, Chas. We did worship the men and that is precisely, imo, why TWI fits the definition of a cult. Heck, even today, there are still people who worship vee pee and craiggers. Many more who worship vee pee and insist he could do no wrong when it comes to teaching the Bible.
They forget that doctrinal error leads to practical error and we have tons upon tons of practical error. That is, unless vee pee was wrong about doctrinal error leading to practical error, but....naw.....vee pee never taught anything wrong.
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oldiesman
I still love reading Proverbs and do respect it greatly, even tho' the author murdered raped and pillaged in the name of God.
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allan w.
Come on WordWolf..you're 'pulling a bit of a longbow' on this one arntcha !
TL insisted that I refrain from replying to her comments, but that only proves my point that her and a couple of others expect to be able to fire off salvos about people and their beliefs without wanting to be taken to task for what they have said.
TL stated that I knew nothing about Mormonism..she was wrong, so I responded to it..
Getting the picture ?
Geesh, thats me off this thread, it's almost become something out of a 'desperate housewives' episode.!
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templelady
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templelady
Sorry about the previous post no matter what I do it won't space or do HTML right--maybe a glitch in the Boards
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justloafing
Thank God the author is dead.
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Littlehawk
Socks,,,,great answer,,,considering a broken sring!!!
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dmiller
When did I at anytime state that I posted because Belle was upset or because Belle posted
Please explain when and how I said that LDS do not have reverence for scripture--reverence is not the same as worshipI know enough of the Mormon religion... well you who know "enough" first of all its not the Mormon religion --we don't worship Mormon- he was the compiler (not writer) of the Book of Mormon we are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints or LDS As for the rest of this diatribe--half truths and outright distortions of truth do not the truth make. But you already know that--it's just the old way brain creeping to the fore. Since I no longer agree with TWI that puts me outside and fair game for any potshots you as a PFAL and VPW supporter cares to take
No you're definitely not--appreciation for anything beyond your viewpoint is completely beyond your graspNot agreeing with YOU does not a simpleton make nor does not sharing your beliefs make one antagonistic--It is you Allen who launch into diatribes and justifications while spewing your hatred of all who disagree with your viewpoint all over the boards. If it was just me who found you objectionable it would be one thing--but posters who I don't agree with on many points find you just as objectionable that should tell you something--and no it is not the message you carry that is the problem it is the attitude with which you carry it
Not half as much as my being LDS apparently upsets YOUDenigrating things to a personal level is indeed sad So when do YOU plan to stop
Hope that looks better for you, TempleLady. :)
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socks
"The peace of God that keeps our hearts is based on our thinking these things, on having an abundance of the Bible in our minds."
More is better? Could be. Although a lot of a little bit is better than a lot of nothing, that's for sure.
This is even more meaningful if a person believes they're "born again" of God's spirit, carrying that treasure around in this life.
Jesus taught - to be like our Father in heaven and to return a blessing against a curse. Not me, of course, I get to do what I want, He'll understand <_<
But everyone else, yes? We temper each other's tempers that way. Everyone has their moments, adding fuel to the fire burns everyone. Why are we at odds? I don't know. What if someone at some point said, fine. No more. In a perfect world if we were all we wanted to be, I'd be here to help you and you me, I'd hope. I'm laying my sword down. It hurts too much to hurt you. I'm just not going to do it anymore. You do whatever you choose.
Here. Here's mine. Everybody gets to stay.
:unsure:
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templelady
Thanks Dmiller--don't know why it went wacky on me
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allan w.
Aaaah..so now Wordwolf determines usage of a word by the person speaking it, i.e. 'apologist' !
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Belle
Since allen has been taking notes from Mike on how to change every friggin' thread he posts on to being all about him and the whole topic has been shot to #e11:
It's okay for allen to call people names, follow them around the boards just so he can attack their beliefs, but GAWD FORBID someone challenge him on HIS beliefs. He can't even have a normal, civilized discussion - it always comes down to namecalling, attacking, changing the thread to be about him and denigrating the subject while never contributing anything of value to the conversation.
This, folks, is who is representing the TWI-offshoots - THIS is who lurkers see as representative and ambassadors for the offshoots, especially those that affiliate with allen's. Is THIS the example you really want them to see? Is this REALLY how all of you think? You want people like this and allen and the others like him representing your image?
That's why so many people stay in TWI - why change names when you can get the same treatment where you are? It just feeds the TWIt myth that "there's nothing better out there". The elitism must be stifling and suffocating unless you're the one getting to eat off the china plates all the time.
edited to add: this is my last comment on allan. I have requested that he be censored by the moderators and would like to request that others do the same if you find him as offensive as I have. His new handle is being added to my ignore list as well.
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allan w.
Actually Belle this went way off topic because you jumped into a post between myself and Mark o'
a remark I made to him that he stated did NOT offend him ( which is logical because no offence was intended !)
Pop another pill and have a lay down woncha.
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mstar1
(((((((Belle)))))))
Anthing you say will far outweigh what any self inflated pinhead will say, I think almost everyone here would vouch for that.Youve shown yourself over a span of time to have great breadth and depth of understanding and care and aheart of gold--
the ignore feature is a beautiful thing
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johniam
Yeah, but the problem with the ignore feature is that it's still an open forum. Anybody can post their input. So if you have someone on ignore and they post something in response to something you posted, other posters can see what the poster you have on ignore posted, but you can't. And if other posters respond to that poster then you are in the dark because you don't know what they're talking about and everybody else does plus they're probably talking about you or something you originally posted and you wouldn't want to be in the dark about that.
In THAT light, putting people on ignore is at best, sticking your head in the sand like an ostrich, and at worst, saying in effect, "If I can't get my way, I'm going to take my ball and go home!"
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Belle
Wrong assumptions, John. Some of us don't care what certain posters have to say and already know, for the most part WHAT they're going to say anyway - which is nothing of value. I really and truly don't give a rat's whisker about what some people on here have to say whether it's a response to something I posted, a personal attack on me or otherwise.
They are free to post like you said, and I'm free to ignore them.
Actually, it's good for not wasting time and for not getting sucked into petty infantile arguments and unnecessarily getting my blood boiling. Nothing certain people post is worth considering, responding to or even acknowledging. It's not the ostrich in their case - it's not allowing these people to waste my time. ;)
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socks
Saying that people are neurotic, need to take a pill, those kinds of statements - that's wrong IMO, plain wrong. It's degrading and simply shouldn't be done on a board where people are trying to be open and honest about what they're thinking. Not even commenting to what they've said and simply branding it as neurotic babblings is wrong, does nothing to help the perception of the problem and only comes off as a nasty comment.
If someone reacted to me that way I'd ask them to stop and try to discuss it. I'm not inclined to endless arguing - live and let live works for me. Disagree? Bring it on, I'm your huckleberry.
Use terms like that to belittle and insult me? Forget it.
If it continued to where I felt someone might do it at any time, I'd hit that ignore button in a heartbeat. It isn't worth it to come to this board, which is just a "cyber-spot" for posting our thoughts, and risk exposure to that kind of name calling. The ignore is available. So are these.
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Bramble
I agree with Socks, Belle, and Mstar about the ignore feature. What possible value is there in reading the spewth from those posters that just tear people down with insults? Really, I don't know how they remain on the boards, anyway. Must be the lack of 'report this post to the moderator' buttons.
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plinio
The Way's God isn't the God of Christianity.
This is quite clear.
In the Way, they use the Bible for their personal advantage.
I'm catholic but my wife is involved in The Way.
Now, after over two years of discussions and with the help of God, she start to understands how is the real soul of The Way.
The Way is not Christian and their God it isn't our God. Catholic, protestant, Ortodossi...we have different point of view about the doctrine of course but our God is the same God and this is important.
The Bible isn't GOD. The bible, the Word, is a a gift for all the people ( belivers and not belivers).
I am so sorry for my english... It is very hard for me try to explain how is my personal view of the Way.
If you have any documents, any suggestions to help me and my wife, please feel free to contact me.
Thank you
Plinio
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rascal
Plinio, please do not worry about your english....you communicate just FINE :) !
Your argument is very eloquent, Stay strong, stay loving, for anything you say that contradicts her pov will probably be viewed as satanic influince.
Your love, God`s love shining through you is what will speak volumes, more so than any scriptures or doctrinal reasoning.
That she is with you after a couple of years of involvement with twi, is amazing.
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Belle
Welcome, Plinio! Your English is very good!
I second what Rascal said. It's superb that your wife is still married to you since here in the US those kinds of marriages are generally not allowed. There are exceptions, but not many.
It also sounds like you have a strong relationship where you can discuss these kinds of things. That's great! You seem to already being doing things correctly with regards to loving your wife and gently helping her to see where TWI's priorities and allegiences are. It just takes time - a lot of time in some cases - and the fact that she's responding to your observations is very encouraging.
How long has she been involved with TWI? How much time does she spend with others involved with TWI? Does she do things and have friends who are not involved with TWI?
The more you can get her to spend time with people who are not involved with TWI, the better. It really helps get a different perspective on things when you spend time with others who do have different beliefs.
I'm not sure how well this would go over, but if you can find the book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" and if she would be open to reading it, I think it would open her eyes to how TWI twists scriptures to control and manipulate people. It was not written by anyone involved with TWI and it doesn't mention TWI anywhere in the book, so hopefully she would be receptive to reading it. Maybe don't tell her why you want her to read the book, just that someone recommended it and you wanted to read it with her.
May I offer you a pastry?
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T-Bone
I think WordWolf nailed this one saying: "The Bible should never be used as a substitute for God.
The Bible-regardless of what certain criminals said-is not God,
and never was. The Bible MAKES KNOWN God.
Anything that MAKES KNOWN God should never be confused
for God HIMSELF. This leads to worshipping the created thing
rather than the CREATOR. (Romans 1.)
The brass serpent was raised in the wilderness, at the direction
of God Almighty. It was very useful, and was meant for
healing from the God that heals. So, that showed an aspect
of God for the people, YHWH-Rapha, YHWH Who Heals.
However, some people later worshipped the brass serpent.
What was the proper response then?
Trash it and smash it to pieces.
It was now leading people AWAY FROM GOD."
What WordWolf described is a subtle process [which I think happens quite often unbeknownst to leaders and followers of many Bible-based groups] – that is the pathway to idolatry. "Webster's New World College Dictionary" defines "idolatry" as "excessive devotion to or reverence for some person of thing." Speaking for myself – I was a great idolater in my TWI days. I remember the devotion I had to VPW, LCM, and other stooges and the high and holy position that I had elevated PFAL stuff to – being on par with Scripture! I had lots of idols.
This can be a tricky one to catch – because it happens in our heads. Ezekiel 14: 6, 7 mentions this, "…This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices! When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his HEART…" Idolatry is an "inside job." It reminds me of Jesus' comments on adultery in Matthew 5: 27 & 28 – he said if anyone looks at a woman lustfully they have already committed adultery. It starts in the heart.
That somehow makes me think of a johniam's quote in this thread: "People look at a Playboy centerfold to become sexually aroused, and people look at the bible to see God revealed. There, see it?" Maybe there is some truth in that. For a guy, the nice thing about looking at a Playboy Centerfold is that he doesn't have to worry about any relationship with the woman in the picture. There's no messy emotional involvement or commitment required of him by the picture. Maybe sometimes we do the same thing with the Bible. We read it, get an idea of what God is like, seeing Him from a distance, and go no further in developing a relationship with Him. And so we have a fantasy [idol] of having a relationship with that picture of God – a relationship based on our own rules. That's why for me being a study-bug I have to remind myself sometimes that the Bible is a means to an end [connecting with God] and not an end in itself [becoming a Bible Know-it-All].
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plinio
Thank you very much to all.
My wife started her experience in the way in 1994.
I meet her in 2002.
She didn't explain to me her doctrine immediatly but after 4/5 mounths.
In the beginning I went to the fellowship and I discussed with her about their doctrine.
In the same time I started my research in the web to find informations about the way and their leaders. (I found your site 1 year ago).
In 2 years, step by step, with love and patience, my wife life ( and also my life) is changed.
Now, we go in the way's felloship toghether but not like the first time. The way leaders try to separeted me and my wife but I love my wife and she love me and both, we have a very big and true love for God.
My wife and me, togheter, we have confronted and wins the enemy
Now she have new friends not involved in the way. She uses her beautiful mind and she dosn't asks to the way local leader how to procede in her life.
"Victor Paul Wierwille and the Way International" of J. L. Williams is also a good book. I found it on E Bay and she start to read it few mounths ago.
I looking for documents to show her the economic investemts and the "turn-over" of the way. The Way isn't a biblical group but is a company where few bad people thanks to the ingenuousness of other people take their personal profit. I think is the most frightening and wretched of the sins.
Thank you again
Plinio
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allan w.
Good on your wife Plinio ! The Way had one of their leaders call my wife on the phone to get her to leave me( it was actually her brother). She told them that I was still her husband, the father of her children and for The way to go take a hike, God bless our strong ladies !!
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