You know it's funny. I could tolerate the pain a LOT more than the numbness. When it get's so numb you can bang your hand on the wall and not feel a thing, it's pretty much impossible to play. Kinda strange (and sad) that so many others here have the same problem.
Waysider, I agree. It gets somewhat better if I quit playing for awhile. But I guess it's an obsession with me cause I just can't go more than a day.
Oh well, as B.B. King said, "Ya gotta suffer to play the blues". Although I dont' think this is what he meant. :)
I've had some hand and wrist pain the last few years. Someone commented to me recently about my hands, from a musician's standpoint, she asked what else I'd done along the way. I guess they look pretty beat up for a musician/computer geek. I did go to a doctor once when I had some severe wrist pain and the first thing he asked about were some scars. I was embarrassed but he put me at ease, suggested Aloe Vera stuff.
Once I started working on a keyboard a good part of the day that was the primary cause. I used to doubt "CTS" - but quickly found out I was a believer when my wrist and lower arms started hurting. Found it's basically forms of tendonitis, as Terry Myers describes above. At one point the pain was so severe in my left arm that I couldn't hold anything at a certain angle, even picking up a glass of water at a certain angle caused shooting pain through my wrist and arm.
I'd like to hear more of what everyone's doing with their situations, if you're inclined. It would help everyone I think. I do know - using the keyboard at the wrong angle where my wrists are bent down and my hands are angled up - produces big-bad results over time. Just by adjusting my seat posture and keyboard so my hands were level, and slighly down with the wrist a little higher brought quick relief. It took about a month to ease up. Still happens today if I don't watch it.
Where it carried over to the guitar was I could press the strings and play fine, my wrist angle had to remain more consistent. I couldn't move certain ways without pain. (fingers are a whole nother thing too it seems)
I'd "originally" learned to have the guitar so it was about mid-section high, and the neck angled slightly up and about chest high. This is in fact the best position for me now.
What happens is the wrist will angle to the right or left as I move up and down the neck, and if there's stress already there it gets magnfied by doing that and I feel pain. What I do is try to move my arm so that it places my hand at more of a right angle to the neck as I move and play. There's still some angling horizontally of course, but I try to minimize it by moving my arm a little.
The primary goal is to get the hand in the right position to the neck, a right angle, so that the fingers play straight "down" to the strings, or close to it. There's still some variance, depending on what the music calls for, but I make that part of my practice. Sitting down I've had to find correct positioning too, sometimes I hold the body "normally" on my right knee, but I'll move it to my left or lap, to accomodate what I'm playing.
Years ago I played the guitar low, below the belt for awhile. Wasn't practical for me despite the fact it was popular. The lower you hold the guitar the worse the angle is on the wrist. I definitely have to position it correctly and use my arm AND my wrist angle to avoid pain.
Wow Socks! Your describing my symptoms to the "T"!
We do similar work. I am a software developer(freelance) and spend most of my day typing on the computer. Can't use a flat KB for more than a couple minutes. I have a logitech ergonomic KB right now, but I think I'm going to buy another Microsoft Natural. That was the most comfortable KB I have ever used. (Note to self: Keep glasses of soda away from the new one. :) )
I'm interested in trying out adjusting where I wear the guitar though...I had not thought to try that. I just play where I have always been comfortable but higher might help.
Just taking a break from yard work right now. I'll read your articles later this afternoon.
Check it out Rick, that might do some good over time. Pat Martino - he holds it about at the height I've settled on -
I go maybe even a tad higher.
This other video kind of shows how his elbow lays out - what I try to do is move my elbow to the left and point more straight on towards the neck than he does, as the hand moves up and down the fret. This has the embedding disabled but the LINK IS HERE
In places here, Roy Buchanan in the closeups at the beginning - you can see his hand is straight on and the wrist isn't bent. Then watch how his wrist bends up a little. If you held you hand straight out at the wrist, laid flat on a table with your hand closed slightly and the wrist lifted up SLIGHTlY. That's more of the level I try to maintain now, although you really can't without looking like you're trying to get a nut off a bad bolt under a car.The more I bend the wrist, the worse it will start to hurt. That and variation, so I don't get locked into one position all the time, seems to help. For several years I was heavy on page and site building, internet stuff, so I was developing at the puter for hours. Had to make sure I shook loose regularly. I've changed roles with a new company where I (will be) site managing more and less keyboard heavy hours. I've noticed a diff already.
I didn't want you to think I ran out on you all, as the topic of hand pain IS an important one. However, my Mom has been in the hospital for the past week, and I've been sick as a dog the last few days myself.
I read in one of the links that Socks provided about one of the B-vitamins helping...don't remember which one. But I plan on reading those links again, more throughly when I have a little more time. Thanks for posting them, Socks!
Oh, and Dmiller, even though I'm a blues fan, I LOVE bluegrass! It's fun as hell to play!
The heat's WAY up in Nor Cal today, been a smoker on the ground, feels like.
I take a multi-v myself , and the B's are in it. I don't take the recommended dosages, as they tend to clutter up the inner tracts in ways that make passage more complicated than intended, I'm sure. It might be the "binders" or sumpin, but I break them in half and use a pill grinder, little plastic thing that powders those puppies up, then drink it down in a beverage or yogurt. Take them twice a day that way and they go down easy.
My hands and wrists have settled down the last week. They were a little stiff there for a bit, not hurting now much at all. When they do start to hurt a correction on the keyboard arm positioning and frequent short breaks to stretch a little will do the trick.
Speaking of "free" stuff that isn't entirely free but paid for, we have Comcast cable and internet, and got their "On Demand" service a month ago. It adds a lot of programming and under the Music section are several Guitar lessons. Pretty cool, there's a clip of Joe Satriani I checked out, and he covers some nice things on modes. I haven't checked them all out but it's a nice feature. Anyone else have this or seen them?
My wife bought me some of this, big bottle of it, wasn't that expensive, it has a couple other things in it. I break the pills in half and take a half every day or so, ground up with my little pill grinder thing. Tastes fairly nasty, but in a beverage or with something else, I can't taste it. It may have helped, not sure. Didn't hurt. At the point I had extreme pain it was part of the things I did to recover.
Hot again today. Eggs frying on the sidewalk hot. Breakfast on the road, literally, and if you like grits, there's grit when they're cooked that way so some folks may have been clam-happy.
B.B. King has spoken about when he first moved up to the "city" and was working a day job in a factory for awhile. His hands would swell up in the day and he'd play at night and they'd be killing him. Singin' the blues. I think a lot of guitar players deal with it over the years, comes and goes.
One job I had for a couple years gave my hands a workout and that's when I noticed them changing. I was carrying stuff all day 10-15 pounds, and using some hand tools. Lifting 50 gallon tanks of solvent up and over and emptying them out. My hands would be tight by the end of the day and I saw the muscle between my index and thumb bulge out, like a rupture almost. For awhile I felt like Popeye or something. They're still that way, more than not.
It's always been my personal theory that "working hands" may have contributed to rise in popularity with slide and bottleneck playing, as well as open tunings.
My problem, though, is that it's the fingers on my picking hand that go numb and since I use a finger rocking style, it's a bummer.
Maybe I could learn to use a pick but I really don't like the thin tone it produces.
I think maybe I'll try some of that Glucowhatzit, too.
Inneresting idea, waysider. It does make sense. Open tunings and slide work allows for a lot of flexibility, regardless of how the hand is feeling. I've always liked the sound of the "bottleneck" slide.
I've tried different picks over the years and have settled on xtra heavy, or very thick. There's a brand I get, forget which, that's very thick, with holes in the body. Easy to grip, and has a meatier sound overall.
I participate on a harmonica forum called "Harp-L".
By way of this forum, I have found some really interesting postings on youtube.
There is a guy named Jason Ricci, whose youthful appearance belies his experience, who has a whole series of harp lessons posted.(10 or 12/ I didn't count)
These are really high quality advise from a guy who has been around the block.
I haven't even had a chance to see them all yet but what I have seen is primo.
It is a little hard to figure out the sequence they should be viewed in.
In the ones that I have watched, he makes mention of two other sites that I have not checked out.
They are:" tenhole.com" and "bendometer".
Well, like I said, I haven't gone too far in exploring this, but what I have seen so far is really good.
He mostly plays "cross" in his examples.(2nd position/ harp is a fourth away from key band is in.)
Exception is his lesson on minors which he plays in 3rd and a bit of 1st.)
Just wanted to pass that on for Jonny Lingo and Polar Bear and anyone else interested in harp.
Well, my Mom is home from the hospital. Very very weak, but then, she was in bed for most of 2 weeks. Gonna take time for her to get her strength back.
Just thought I'd post a pic of my jam room. I have some individual pics of close-ups of different stuff, but I'll have to post those when I get time to reduce them. As it is, this picture was 10 times bigger than this when I first started.
You can see whose style he is leaning towards here as well. Or perhaps it's just that the stuff I saw him doing was soooooo SRV that I want him to grow up to be another one. ;)
Thank you for that. I hadn't even thought to check for YouTubes for him.
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Bluzeman
You know it's funny. I could tolerate the pain a LOT more than the numbness. When it get's so numb you can bang your hand on the wall and not feel a thing, it's pretty much impossible to play. Kinda strange (and sad) that so many others here have the same problem.
Waysider, I agree. It gets somewhat better if I quit playing for awhile. But I guess it's an obsession with me cause I just can't go more than a day.
Oh well, as B.B. King said, "Ya gotta suffer to play the blues". Although I dont' think this is what he meant. :)
Rick
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socks
Good topic. Couple articles I found - carpal tunnel and hand/wrist/arm pain guitarists experience -
A short article on CT and guitar players
Informative article on this stuff with Terry Myers of Taylor Guitar
An article on various musician-specific maladies that occour - scroll to the CT part
I've had some hand and wrist pain the last few years. Someone commented to me recently about my hands, from a musician's standpoint, she asked what else I'd done along the way. I guess they look pretty beat up for a musician/computer geek. I did go to a doctor once when I had some severe wrist pain and the first thing he asked about were some scars. I was embarrassed but he put me at ease, suggested Aloe Vera stuff.
Once I started working on a keyboard a good part of the day that was the primary cause. I used to doubt "CTS" - but quickly found out I was a believer when my wrist and lower arms started hurting. Found it's basically forms of tendonitis, as Terry Myers describes above. At one point the pain was so severe in my left arm that I couldn't hold anything at a certain angle, even picking up a glass of water at a certain angle caused shooting pain through my wrist and arm.
I'd like to hear more of what everyone's doing with their situations, if you're inclined. It would help everyone I think. I do know - using the keyboard at the wrong angle where my wrists are bent down and my hands are angled up - produces big-bad results over time. Just by adjusting my seat posture and keyboard so my hands were level, and slighly down with the wrist a little higher brought quick relief. It took about a month to ease up. Still happens today if I don't watch it.
Where it carried over to the guitar was I could press the strings and play fine, my wrist angle had to remain more consistent. I couldn't move certain ways without pain. (fingers are a whole nother thing too it seems)
I'd "originally" learned to have the guitar so it was about mid-section high, and the neck angled slightly up and about chest high. This is in fact the best position for me now.
What happens is the wrist will angle to the right or left as I move up and down the neck, and if there's stress already there it gets magnfied by doing that and I feel pain. What I do is try to move my arm so that it places my hand at more of a right angle to the neck as I move and play. There's still some angling horizontally of course, but I try to minimize it by moving my arm a little.
The primary goal is to get the hand in the right position to the neck, a right angle, so that the fingers play straight "down" to the strings, or close to it. There's still some variance, depending on what the music calls for, but I make that part of my practice. Sitting down I've had to find correct positioning too, sometimes I hold the body "normally" on my right knee, but I'll move it to my left or lap, to accomodate what I'm playing.
Years ago I played the guitar low, below the belt for awhile. Wasn't practical for me despite the fact it was popular. The lower you hold the guitar the worse the angle is on the wrist. I definitely have to position it correctly and use my arm AND my wrist angle to avoid pain.
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Bluzeman
Wow Socks! Your describing my symptoms to the "T"!
We do similar work. I am a software developer(freelance) and spend most of my day typing on the computer. Can't use a flat KB for more than a couple minutes. I have a logitech ergonomic KB right now, but I think I'm going to buy another Microsoft Natural. That was the most comfortable KB I have ever used. (Note to self: Keep glasses of soda away from the new one. :) )
I'm interested in trying out adjusting where I wear the guitar though...I had not thought to try that. I just play where I have always been comfortable but higher might help.
Just taking a break from yard work right now. I'll read your articles later this afternoon.
Rick
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socks
Check it out Rick, that might do some good over time. Pat Martino - he holds it about at the height I've settled on -
I go maybe even a tad higher.
This other video kind of shows how his elbow lays out - what I try to do is move my elbow to the left and point more straight on towards the neck than he does, as the hand moves up and down the fret. This has the embedding disabled but the LINK IS HERE
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socks
In places here, Roy Buchanan in the closeups at the beginning - you can see his hand is straight on and the wrist isn't bent. Then watch how his wrist bends up a little. If you held you hand straight out at the wrist, laid flat on a table with your hand closed slightly and the wrist lifted up SLIGHTlY. That's more of the level I try to maintain now, although you really can't without looking like you're trying to get a nut off a bad bolt under a car.The more I bend the wrist, the worse it will start to hurt. That and variation, so I don't get locked into one position all the time, seems to help. For several years I was heavy on page and site building, internet stuff, so I was developing at the puter for hours. Had to make sure I shook loose regularly. I've changed roles with a new company where I (will be) site managing more and less keyboard heavy hours. I've noticed a diff already.
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waysider
Here's an interesting site for the harp players amongst us.
http://www.harmonicaclub.com/
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dmiller
Hand therapy!!
Numbness and tingling discussed. Been a problem with me for years. :(
Need to read over the (imo) sage advice here more closely. :)
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dmiller
Here's a guy who never needed hand *therapy*
(No wonder they call him *Doc*.) ;)
(Posted for your enjoyment ---- I'm amazed each time I see/hear him pick.)
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dmiller
Also when he Flatpicks,
as well as when he fingerpicks. :)
At 85 years old, and blind since before his first birthday ---
:eusa_clap:
(But I think you all knew that already -- eh?)
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Bluzeman
Socks(and others)
I didn't want you to think I ran out on you all, as the topic of hand pain IS an important one. However, my Mom has been in the hospital for the past week, and I've been sick as a dog the last few days myself.
I read in one of the links that Socks provided about one of the B-vitamins helping...don't remember which one. But I plan on reading those links again, more throughly when I have a little more time. Thanks for posting them, Socks!
Oh, and Dmiller, even though I'm a blues fan, I LOVE bluegrass! It's fun as hell to play!
Rick
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ChattyKathy
(((you))).....even when you were sick and you had the care of mom you were there for me this week.....(((you)))
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socks
Hope your Mother's getting better! And you too!
The heat's WAY up in Nor Cal today, been a smoker on the ground, feels like.
I take a multi-v myself , and the B's are in it. I don't take the recommended dosages, as they tend to clutter up the inner tracts in ways that make passage more complicated than intended, I'm sure. It might be the "binders" or sumpin, but I break them in half and use a pill grinder, little plastic thing that powders those puppies up, then drink it down in a beverage or yogurt. Take them twice a day that way and they go down easy.
My hands and wrists have settled down the last week. They were a little stiff there for a bit, not hurting now much at all. When they do start to hurt a correction on the keyboard arm positioning and frequent short breaks to stretch a little will do the trick.
Speaking of "free" stuff that isn't entirely free but paid for, we have Comcast cable and internet, and got their "On Demand" service a month ago. It adds a lot of programming and under the Music section are several Guitar lessons. Pretty cool, there's a clip of Joe Satriani I checked out, and he covers some nice things on modes. I haven't checked them all out but it's a nice feature. Anyone else have this or seen them?
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socks
More from the WWF - "World Wristling Federation":
Glucosamine
My wife bought me some of this, big bottle of it, wasn't that expensive, it has a couple other things in it. I break the pills in half and take a half every day or so, ground up with my little pill grinder thing. Tastes fairly nasty, but in a beverage or with something else, I can't taste it. It may have helped, not sure. Didn't hurt. At the point I had extreme pain it was part of the things I did to recover.
Hot again today. Eggs frying on the sidewalk hot. Breakfast on the road, literally, and if you like grits, there's grit when they're cooked that way so some folks may have been clam-happy.
B.B. King has spoken about when he first moved up to the "city" and was working a day job in a factory for awhile. His hands would swell up in the day and he'd play at night and they'd be killing him. Singin' the blues. I think a lot of guitar players deal with it over the years, comes and goes.
One job I had for a couple years gave my hands a workout and that's when I noticed them changing. I was carrying stuff all day 10-15 pounds, and using some hand tools. Lifting 50 gallon tanks of solvent up and over and emptying them out. My hands would be tight by the end of the day and I saw the muscle between my index and thumb bulge out, like a rupture almost. For awhile I felt like Popeye or something.
They're still that way, more than not.
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waysider
It's always been my personal theory that "working hands" may have contributed to rise in popularity with slide and bottleneck playing, as well as open tunings.
My problem, though, is that it's the fingers on my picking hand that go numb and since I use a finger rocking style, it's a bummer.
Maybe I could learn to use a pick but I really don't like the thin tone it produces.
I think maybe I'll try some of that Glucowhatzit, too.
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socks
Inneresting idea, waysider. It does make sense. Open tunings and slide work allows for a lot of flexibility, regardless of how the hand is feeling. I've always liked the sound of the "bottleneck" slide.
I've tried different picks over the years and have settled on xtra heavy, or very thick. There's a brand I get, forget which, that's very thick, with holes in the body. Easy to grip, and has a meatier sound overall.
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waysider
Harmonica players
I participate on a harmonica forum called "Harp-L".
By way of this forum, I have found some really interesting postings on youtube.
There is a guy named Jason Ricci, whose youthful appearance belies his experience, who has a whole series of harp lessons posted.(10 or 12/ I didn't count)
These are really high quality advise from a guy who has been around the block.
I haven't even had a chance to see them all yet but what I have seen is primo.
It is a little hard to figure out the sequence they should be viewed in.
In the ones that I have watched, he makes mention of two other sites that I have not checked out.
They are:" tenhole.com" and "bendometer".
Well, like I said, I haven't gone too far in exploring this, but what I have seen so far is really good.
He mostly plays "cross" in his examples.(2nd position/ harp is a fourth away from key band is in.)
Exception is his lesson on minors which he plays in 3rd and a bit of 1st.)
Just wanted to pass that on for Jonny Lingo and Polar Bear and anyone else interested in harp.
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Bluzeman
Well, my Mom is home from the hospital. Very very weak, but then, she was in bed for most of 2 weeks. Gonna take time for her to get her strength back.
Just thought I'd post a pic of my jam room. I have some individual pics of close-ups of different stuff, but I'll have to post those when I get time to reduce them. As it is, this picture was 10 times bigger than this when I first started.
Rick
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ChattyKathy
What's that? ;)
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ChattyKathy
And you know I want this. :B)
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waysider
Do you mean one of these?
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ChattyKathy
Ain't it cool tones that come out of that guitar, not to mention it's just plum peerrty.
But don't ask Rick about playing it with his shirt off.
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waysider
Robin Lacy
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waysider
Some Scotty Bratcher for ChattyKathy
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ChattyKathy
You can see whose style he is leaning towards here as well. Or perhaps it's just that the stuff I saw him doing was soooooo SRV that I want him to grow up to be another one. ;)
Thank you for that. I hadn't even thought to check for YouTubes for him.
PS...I hear y'all need rain up there.
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