Rejoice...in all seriousness...for years now I've wondered if vpw had mental health issues with audio and visual hallucinations.
I'm not poking fun or making mockery here...mental health is too serious of a subject for that...I have seriously considered that the man was suffering.
'Leviathan' is used 4 times in the bible, and since it seems to be referring to the stars and the message written there... it could be~ (I'm not a stars expert)
There is something about alcoholics that is freaky and snakish though... my brother, sister-in-law & all three of their boys drink all day, everyday. They know it all, and have 'wise' excuses for most everything. They think they're good at concealing their habits...
More there than meets the eye... one nephew's new bride had stayed with them for a few months. After she left she realized she couldn't see what was happening while she was there, but it became clearer when she was gone, and she was ashamed and disgusted. My brother called her and threatened her life if she 'told' anyone...
I'd like her to speak up, so my parents don't get tricked into staying there when they're old & helpless~
I'll tell you this. There were many functioning alcoholics in TWI yet the leaders "winked" at it
all quite possibly because some of the leaders could be quite boozy themselves. Strange since alcholism was supposedly caused by the spirit of Leviathan. So on one one hand it was okay for someone to be walking around possessed but since he was "just" drinking it was cool. But if someone was even suspected of being a sympathizer to "homos" then they wanted to make it seem like a 4 alarm fire. Why the double standard ? I mean possession is possession. Why accept and tolerate one but not the other ? TWI had lots of different standards for different people. Some people got a pass on some things while others got the boot.
Serious question: like everything else, did VPW just "wing it" when he decided to give names to that long list of debbil spurts and their function?
I recently came across the word Leviathan and it triggered those memories. Leviathan is used [in the real world] when speaking about big ships, or a coiled being [snake, dragon etc]. I still have my AC and DWA syllabus and opened those sections and there were spirits with their associated duties.
What the heck?
When you get a chance,
PLEASE post the list.
Not everybody here ever got that list.
Not everybody here STILL has that list.
I'll reserve my opinion until I have a bit more information.
TWI was OBESSESSED with "debil Spurts"--Any thing and everything they didn't approve of was give a specific Spirit. Scripturally I find no basis for this. That devil spirits exist I agree with, But this Spirit, of drunkenness, Spirit, of lying, Spirit of discord ad nauseum ad infinitum--no
Ther go the ships, and the levithan whom thou hast made to play therein....Psalm 104
Yeah, I always thought that a leviathan was a whale. My Dad told me this a long time ago as well.
And so, the "spirit of leviathan?I never could figure that one out. I think I remember that a person who had the spirit of leviathan had a "thirst that could never be quenched" or something like that. Had to do with thirst and alcohol. Maybe because whales drink alot of water?
But, I do believe in devils though. The scriptures are clear that one third of God's angels became devil spirits, and, I have cast them out in Jesus name and have had them snarl and speak to me and it is scary as ..... But, greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world, and God's love and power prevailed. And, I used to get posessed at night when trying to sleep. It wasn't until I learned the power in the name of Jesus Christ that I was able to successfully overcome the spirit or spirits that would mess with me when the dark of night came along, with me alone in my bed with my fear. Yeah, they are real.
Another spirit we were taught about was a "perverse spirit", which VP said was the type of spirit that cause people to riot, as in the "mob mentality" thing.
And then there was another spirit that caused people to be "accident prone", but I forgot the name of what that one supposedly was...
When I read about the "devil spirits" my mind starts thinking of people who have them.
I do not like this.
I have a relative and this is the truth anyone she gets involved with works for or has a relationship with.
Dies . honestly in pretty short order . It has followed her all her life. alot of people when she gets to know them and likes them come up with some freak accident or deadly disease they never had before.
I know I know this sounds sick but it is the truth. The fact is I quickly read the list and I saw a spirt of morbid.
Well hey now ! What do you think Im thinking??
I believe it is spirtiual with her if you knew her history and some of the stuff she thinks well maybe you woud to.
Im convinced she somehow attracts the death spirit or the morbid side of life in .
I never have studied devil spirts I do believe they are real, I also have spoken to them, when I wanted and needed the truth and could handle the facts of the situation.
But I do not think we need an education or certainly NAMES for this spiritul stuff in fact I think giving them names does far more harm than good.
what good does it do to name them? for what purpose? to freak people out and then they start looking for them???
uh huh that is exactly what happened in twi.. totaly uneeded.
I guess I always figured knowing the names and kinds of them had to do with attacking the devil at his secrecy...but in looking back at the numerous (nearly 100) pages of notes I took at the Advanced Class Special on Discerning of Spirits (1992/I didn't leave until early 1996) ... I realize that LCM took LOTS of liberties with naming spirits and telling who had what ... I think it was in the category of having "itching ears" for him. I admit I also had "itching ears" to want to hear it at the time.
Checked my old (1973) Advanced Class syllabus and my notes written beside the spirit of error, and it says there that it is a deceiving spirit that makes people accident prone. It is also supposed to be the spirit at work in "high religious echelons" (some quartered in rural Ohio :-) that makes people "think they are right when they are dead wrong."
The (suppoed) dual role of error spirits was common in VP's definitions. It seems most spirits, according to his teaching had both religious and secular roles. Error spirits caused religious people to propound error and also caused non-religious people to be accident prone. Likewise the spirit of slumber was supposed to keep people from seeing the truth when they read the Bible, and to cause people to have narcolepsy or something like that.
Although I have had some direct and indirect experiences with devils and believe they exist, I don't know how much of what VP taught about them is reliable. There are other sources that may be more valuable.
Derek Prince has a complete tape series called Deliverance and Demonology (I think that's the name of it) that is pretty good. He has a more solid Biblical basis for the teachings and actually uses the teaching to do something that was sorely lacking in TWI--Deliverying demonized people. I think Dale Sides does this kind of ministering as well.
Speakig of which; one of the things that bugged me was the leadership's tendency to brand someone as "possessed" as a means of warning other people not to talk to them, but without showing the slightest inkling of a willingness to help the person. A Christian ministry that claims to have as much power and knowledge as TWI did should be out there healing people and saving lives. I've heard that a lot of that happened in the early days, but I didn't see much of it going on in the 80's.
I believe the reason for this is that the knowledge we had was mostly borrowed form other men with genuine ministries and used to make VP look like some kind of spiritual superman. And that, by and large, we didn't have the love necessary to put what power we had into action. The love of God is what delivers people. Love energizes God's power. You know the whole I Corinthians 13 mantra.
Anyway, those are my miscellaneous ramblings on the subject.
Greater is He who is in You than he who is in the world.
That sort of confusing information ... it just makes ya crazy !!! If you think you're right, then you're probaby possessed by the spirit of error. But TWI made sure that we all thought that we were the only ones with the truth, that everyone else was messed up. So the result is that we always thought we were right ... Right? So we were possessed, right? Looking back, yeh, I think we WERE possessed ... but we were possessed by the Way International !!!
And all this is much like that other twisted logic, where sometimes we were told that good things were happening to believers ... because believers were such good people. But other times we were told that bad things were happening to believers ... because believers were such good people (so the Adversary was attacking us).
Huh?
And then, there was that incredible teaching where we all learned that if we THOUGHT we were possessed, we weren't possessed, because when you're possessed, you don't know it. Now, isn't it reasonable then to walk around thinking you're possessed as a way to assure yourself that you're not?
Here's a verse for ya --- God has not given us the Spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of A SOUND MIND. It's that "Sound Mind" part that was sooooo hard to come by in the Way. -Xena
Speaking of which; one of the things that bugged me was the leadership's tendency to brand someone as "possessed" as a means of warning other people not to talk to them, but without showing the slightest inkling of a willingness to help the person. A Christian ministry that claims to have as much power and knowledge as TWI did should be out there healing people and saving lives. I've heard that a lot of that happened in the early days, but I didn't see much of it going on in the 80's.
Great thoughts Jerry.
I think that the salvation of the Benevolent One also extends to "demons" as well as other angelic "principalities and powers" (Eph.3:9; Col.1:14-18).
Sorry for the de-rail of this thread. Now, back to the original topic - Regarding Leviathan - If you read Job 41, the description of Leviathan offers some real parallels to the life of an alcoholic or addict. There are also some parts of the description that require considerable stretching to make them relate to these dependency illnesses. I doubt that VPW discovered this possible explanation for Leviathan all by himself. Nor do I think that ANYBODY really understands it. And that's the problem with trying to explain spiritual things in concrete terms. TWI acted like they knew everything.
Flip back to Job 38:2. God is talking. He says, "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" I'll tell you who --- the Way International !!!!! -Xena
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CoolWaters
Rejoice...in all seriousness...for years now I've wondered if vpw had mental health issues with audio and visual hallucinations.
I'm not poking fun or making mockery here...mental health is too serious of a subject for that...I have seriously considered that the man was suffering.
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SafariVista
'Leviathan' is used 4 times in the bible, and since it seems to be referring to the stars and the message written there... it could be~ (I'm not a stars expert)
There is something about alcoholics that is freaky and snakish though... my brother, sister-in-law & all three of their boys drink all day, everyday. They know it all, and have 'wise' excuses for most everything. They think they're good at concealing their habits...
More there than meets the eye... one nephew's new bride had stayed with them for a few months. After she left she realized she couldn't see what was happening while she was there, but it became clearer when she was gone, and she was ashamed and disgusted. My brother called her and threatened her life if she 'told' anyone...
I'd like her to speak up, so my parents don't get tricked into staying there when they're old & helpless~
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diazbro
I'll tell you this. There were many functioning alcoholics in TWI yet the leaders "winked" at it
all quite possibly because some of the leaders could be quite boozy themselves. Strange since alcholism was supposedly caused by the spirit of Leviathan. So on one one hand it was okay for someone to be walking around possessed but since he was "just" drinking it was cool. But if someone was even suspected of being a sympathizer to "homos" then they wanted to make it seem like a 4 alarm fire. Why the double standard ? I mean possession is possession. Why accept and tolerate one but not the other ? TWI had lots of different standards for different people. Some people got a pass on some things while others got the boot.
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WordWolf
When you get a chance,
PLEASE post the list.
Not everybody here ever got that list.
Not everybody here STILL has that list.
I'll reserve my opinion until I have a bit more information.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
a song a great folk trio in maine wrote a number of years ago
leviathan:
once upon the land
before the hour of man
]creatures who like me and you
left footprints in the sand
through the primal mud warm of milk and blood
returned once more unto the shore
and to the sea for good
the humpback the fin back the piolet whale too
the right and the sperm and the blue
sing me your song that i may sing it with you
leviathan king of the sea
leviathan king of the sea
sing me your song and when i sing along
you may share all your myst'res with me
leviathan kink of the sea
etc
so you get the picture leviathan is a whale!!
and if is associated with a devil spirit ole doc vis must have been a humpback!
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Tom Strange
...and I thought this was a thread about some new metal band...
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templelady
TWI was OBESSESSED with "debil Spurts"--Any thing and everything they didn't approve of was give a specific Spirit. Scripturally I find no basis for this. That devil spirits exist I agree with, But this Spirit, of drunkenness, Spirit, of lying, Spirit of discord ad nauseum ad infinitum--no
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J0nny Ling0
Ther go the ships, and the levithan whom thou hast made to play therein....Psalm 104
Yeah, I always thought that a leviathan was a whale. My Dad told me this a long time ago as well.
And so, the "spirit of leviathan?I never could figure that one out. I think I remember that a person who had the spirit of leviathan had a "thirst that could never be quenched" or something like that. Had to do with thirst and alcohol. Maybe because whales drink alot of water?
But, I do believe in devils though. The scriptures are clear that one third of God's angels became devil spirits, and, I have cast them out in Jesus name and have had them snarl and speak to me and it is scary as ..... But, greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world, and God's love and power prevailed. And, I used to get posessed at night when trying to sleep. It wasn't until I learned the power in the name of Jesus Christ that I was able to successfully overcome the spirit or spirits that would mess with me when the dark of night came along, with me alone in my bed with my fear. Yeah, they are real.
Another spirit we were taught about was a "perverse spirit", which VP said was the type of spirit that cause people to riot, as in the "mob mentality" thing.
And then there was another spirit that caused people to be "accident prone", but I forgot the name of what that one supposedly was...
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GarthP2000
... wasn't there a 'spirit of forgetfulness' too?
I ferget.
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GT
There be da spirt of bad grammer too, ain't there?
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dmiller
Pulled out my AC syllabus, and found the following. Docvic has 14 *spirits* there
(hmmmm -- 14=2X7 -- spiritual perfection established???!!!) :o
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topoftheworld
D-my syllibi says Matthew 24:24.
And yes, his definition of Spirit of Leviathan is "Found in an alcoholic."
He also listed 17 others.
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dmiller
That's right!! Duh me -- there are two pages there, I only typed out one.
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dmiller
The other 17 are these :
(No verses mentioned here at all, 'ceptin for python.)
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templelady
SO then the question becomes are these actual Spirits in the sense that
SATAN: Send, me the Spirit of Fear, I need him to go topside and make sure Mo is fearful
Or does it mean spirit of fear, as a mental state that God doesn't want his children to have
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dmiller
Mo -- it's been 25 years since I last had the AC. I don't think I still have the notes I took from it.
Sowwy! :)
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pond
This is freaky to me.
When I read about the "devil spirits" my mind starts thinking of people who have them.
I do not like this.
I have a relative and this is the truth anyone she gets involved with works for or has a relationship with.
Dies . honestly in pretty short order . It has followed her all her life. alot of people when she gets to know them and likes them come up with some freak accident or deadly disease they never had before.
I know I know this sounds sick but it is the truth. The fact is I quickly read the list and I saw a spirt of morbid.
Well hey now ! What do you think Im thinking??
I believe it is spirtiual with her if you knew her history and some of the stuff she thinks well maybe you woud to.
Im convinced she somehow attracts the death spirit or the morbid side of life in .
I never have studied devil spirts I do believe they are real, I also have spoken to them, when I wanted and needed the truth and could handle the facts of the situation.
But I do not think we need an education or certainly NAMES for this spiritul stuff in fact I think giving them names does far more harm than good.
what good does it do to name them? for what purpose? to freak people out and then they start looking for them???
uh huh that is exactly what happened in twi.. totaly uneeded.
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DogLover
I guess I always figured knowing the names and kinds of them had to do with attacking the devil at his secrecy...but in looking back at the numerous (nearly 100) pages of notes I took at the Advanced Class Special on Discerning of Spirits (1992/I didn't leave until early 1996) ... I realize that LCM took LOTS of liberties with naming spirits and telling who had what ... I think it was in the category of having "itching ears" for him. I admit I also had "itching ears" to want to hear it at the time.
Checked my old (1973) Advanced Class syllabus and my notes written beside the spirit of error, and it says there that it is a deceiving spirit that makes people accident prone. It is also supposed to be the spirit at work in "high religious echelons" (some quartered in rural Ohio :-) that makes people "think they are right when they are dead wrong."
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Jbarrax
The (suppoed) dual role of error spirits was common in VP's definitions. It seems most spirits, according to his teaching had both religious and secular roles. Error spirits caused religious people to propound error and also caused non-religious people to be accident prone. Likewise the spirit of slumber was supposed to keep people from seeing the truth when they read the Bible, and to cause people to have narcolepsy or something like that.
Although I have had some direct and indirect experiences with devils and believe they exist, I don't know how much of what VP taught about them is reliable. There are other sources that may be more valuable.
Derek Prince has a complete tape series called Deliverance and Demonology (I think that's the name of it) that is pretty good. He has a more solid Biblical basis for the teachings and actually uses the teaching to do something that was sorely lacking in TWI--Deliverying demonized people. I think Dale Sides does this kind of ministering as well.
Speakig of which; one of the things that bugged me was the leadership's tendency to brand someone as "possessed" as a means of warning other people not to talk to them, but without showing the slightest inkling of a willingness to help the person. A Christian ministry that claims to have as much power and knowledge as TWI did should be out there healing people and saving lives. I've heard that a lot of that happened in the early days, but I didn't see much of it going on in the 80's.
I believe the reason for this is that the knowledge we had was mostly borrowed form other men with genuine ministries and used to make VP look like some kind of spiritual superman. And that, by and large, we didn't have the love necessary to put what power we had into action. The love of God is what delivers people. Love energizes God's power. You know the whole I Corinthians 13 mantra.
Anyway, those are my miscellaneous ramblings on the subject.
Greater is He who is in You than he who is in the world.
Peace
JerryB
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pond
do we all think we are right when we are wrong?
I mean till we find out different?>
see that to me doesnt make any sense .
way to much over my head.
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dmiller
Shucks -- I've always thought I was right -- until proven wrong. ;)
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Xena
That sort of confusing information ... it just makes ya crazy !!! If you think you're right, then you're probaby possessed by the spirit of error. But TWI made sure that we all thought that we were the only ones with the truth, that everyone else was messed up. So the result is that we always thought we were right ... Right? So we were possessed, right? Looking back, yeh, I think we WERE possessed ... but we were possessed by the Way International !!!
And all this is much like that other twisted logic, where sometimes we were told that good things were happening to believers ... because believers were such good people. But other times we were told that bad things were happening to believers ... because believers were such good people (so the Adversary was attacking us).
Huh?
And then, there was that incredible teaching where we all learned that if we THOUGHT we were possessed, we weren't possessed, because when you're possessed, you don't know it. Now, isn't it reasonable then to walk around thinking you're possessed as a way to assure yourself that you're not?
Here's a verse for ya --- God has not given us the Spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of A SOUND MIND. It's that "Sound Mind" part that was sooooo hard to come by in the Way. -Xena
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TheInvisibleDan
Great thoughts Jerry.
I think that the salvation of the Benevolent One also extends to "demons" as well as other angelic "principalities and powers" (Eph.3:9; Col.1:14-18).
Danny
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Xena
Sorry for the de-rail of this thread. Now, back to the original topic - Regarding Leviathan - If you read Job 41, the description of Leviathan offers some real parallels to the life of an alcoholic or addict. There are also some parts of the description that require considerable stretching to make them relate to these dependency illnesses. I doubt that VPW discovered this possible explanation for Leviathan all by himself. Nor do I think that ANYBODY really understands it. And that's the problem with trying to explain spiritual things in concrete terms. TWI acted like they knew everything.
Flip back to Job 38:2. God is talking. He says, "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" I'll tell you who --- the Way International !!!!! -Xena
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