I sometimes dream of winning the lottery or finding a stopwatch like the one on Twilight Zone that literally halts time, just so that I can catch up with all the backlog of posts I’d like to respond to. Now that I’ve finished my taxes and gotten a little caught up with my work I can do a little responding, along with the usual springboarding that other posters so often generously give me the opportunity to do.
But the backlog for this thread will have to wait, because I recently saw several posts on the “Geer Anyone Got Anything Good to Say?” thread in the About the Way forum. I only have time for one right now.
Over there GrouchoMarxJr, in Post #61, made an interesting observation that I concur with and would like to elaborate on. But first I want to re-write that post to fit more with the reality of the situation.
From what I’ve seen Chris Geer is just another one of the many “VPW clones” that survived TWI with their “persona” intact. It seems that many of the “top leaders” from TWI have SIGNIFICANTLY ERRED in following in footsteps of their father in the Word.
Number one error is that they all failed to pick up on Dr’s ten years of urging them to master the written forms of PFAL, from the early hints in 1975 to the sledgehammer ’79 AC demand that RHST be nearly memorized, to the last gentle but firm and twice mentioned urging in Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching.
This last teaching was not only universally disobeyed by all the top leadership and clergy, but it was not passed on to the rest of us in any effective way either. Dr’s ten years of urging them all to master written PFAL was trodden underfoot in a most cavalier and arrogant way by all of them.
As a result they did not and DO not know the accuracy of God’s Word, and they are totally taken in (and even instigators of) the many TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions) that sunk the ministry twenty years ago.
They all have succumbed to different errors and have different weakness themselves, so their many splinter ministries suffer from a large variety of ills, some overt and some hidden. Some are nice guys and some are not. Some have a large number of good principles, but not enough to keep them from wandering later either into fires or off into weak obscurity.
In addition to missing the accuracy of the Word that was given to them in written form, some are aware of many good and sound ideas, YET they often misapply them grossly. One example of this is that some misappropriate the 1942 promise to themselves, thinking they can reject the body of work God taught Dr and Dr put into written form, and that they can count on God to bless their research efforts to come up with an abundance of truth.
Then another common misapplication of sound doctrine I’ve seen rampant in the ranks of former leaders is the Biblically sound idea of double honor due those who have brought us the Word, the high degree of respect due to any man whom God selects to be His spokesman.
Waltzing back into by borrowing from GrouchoMarxJr, I’d say it seems that it is more preferable to these gentlemen to be the top banana of their own little group, than to regroup together into one big splinter group.
VPW rightfully demanded “his way or the highway” because God was working with him in a special, 2000 year unique fashion, and God placed him as the one in charge. But these disobedient, defiant, and reprobate former leaders have unjustifiably cloned themselves into the same mode of operation VPW rightfully exercised, and all want to be “top dog” in a pack of other dogs all wanting the same honor without doing the same work to earn it.
Division in these circles is inevitable. When the true man of God died, it became like a bad soap opera...Geer played his part, and what a part it was. So have many others in their time and place and sphere of influence. I run into them all the time.
These men, upon first contact with me, are gracious and tender in their behavior. They try to schmooze me, praise me for my respect for VPW, and assure me that they too still love and respect him. They have years of habit patterns of carefully drawing upon the respect that many non-leader, non-Corps grads have for the man, VPW, who originally taught them the Word.
These former TWI leaders feign this respect for Dr to avoid loosing potential followers and abundant sharers in the people who still love Dr and PFAL, all the while they have been quietly amplifying their initial defiance of Dr’s final instructions by opposing point after point in the material they were told to master.
I see they are used to being top dogs in their operations so I go slow with them. As I lay out for them the itinerary Dr had insisted upon, they do their best to agree with me and yes me to death. But the soon also start to remind me that they “sat at the feet of the man of God” while I had not. They remind me they had the “official” training while I had not. They remind me of the years of hard work and sweat they have put into their operation, sounding just like Geer in his POP self praise.
But I’ve seen this pattern so often that I just methodically press on and lay out for them what Dr told them to do and what they refused to do. I do this as politely and coolly as I am capable of doing. I point out that their KJV research is void of authority and just another opinion in a sea of them, and that Dr was given authority and direct teaching from God to settle the issues. I assert slowly that these renegade leaders are trying to re-invent wheels that are already available for me to roll with.
At some point they finally get it, that I am not meek to them and never will be, and that I have the evidence in hand that they are far from really respecting VPW. These sad sacks are merely using a show of respect for VPW to win converts from the pool of grads who genuinely respect him and VPW. When these guys reach this point of seeing that I am solid in insisting it’s THEY that need to change course and not me, they drop me like a hot potato. Their schmoozing either turns to callous, hard, nasty threats of my spiritual doom, or they cut and run, never again returning my calls or e-mails and doing the M&A trip on me with their followers.
It’s a repeating pattern. Some of these renegade leaders have even posted here, and many are known here. They are good at the schmooze techniques and are liked by some here.
Number one error is that they all failed to pick up on Dr’s ten years of urging them to master the written forms of PFAL, from the early hints in 1975 to the sledgehammer ’79 AC demand that RHST be nearly memorized, to the last gentle but firm and twice mentioned urging in Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching.
This last teaching was not only universally disobeyed by all the top leadership and clergy, but it was not passed on to the rest of us in any effective way either. Dr’s ten years of urging them all to master written PFAL was trodden underfoot in a most cavalier and arrogant way by all of them.
Mike, you term "all top leadership" when you say they failed. I always wonder how you know what all the top leadership are doing. How do you know they didn't read his written works and started teaching them?
My other question is why is it so important to do what a man says to do? May God Almight Himself is telling them something else. Do you ignore that possibility?
OK Revvel Mike... now that you've brought the thread back up to the top how about getting back on track... we know you've been 'hanging out' at the cafe for the last week or so but not touching your beloved tread...
so now that you brought it back to life, go ahead and get back to it... or let it die the quiet slow death it so richly deserves...
VPW rightfully demanded “his way or the highway” because God was working with him in a special, 2000 year unique fashion, and God placed him as the one in charge.
Sadly -- I bought into that at one point in my life.
I chalk it up to the *foolishness of youth*, (these days).
This thread has no one track nor one topic to get back to. It was designed by management to keep complaints down, thus minimizing hassles to them, and for me to have a spot to place my message. The topic shifts about quite a lot, and any mention of such a shift at the beginning of a post will be helpful to readers.
Think of this thread as a one-thread-forum.
I still have two more items to comment on from the Gear thread before I get back to my backlog from several weeks ago here. But now I'd like to answer most of the recent posts of today.
I had written: “VPW rightfully demanded “his way or the highway” because God was working with him in a special, 2000 year unique fashion, and God placed him as the one in charge.”
You responded with: “Sadly -- I bought into that at one point in my life. I chalk it up to the *foolishness of youth*, (these days).”
No, the sad thing is that you didn’t go far enough with buying it. If you had really bought the idea you would have responded to this instruction in segment 5 of the 1979 AC to the all the AC students and all the AC grads:
“I have set for our people, and it’s set in the book on ‘Receiving the Holy Spirit Today,’ and people, when you reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost to quote this line for line. You should have mastered this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class. If you haven’t, you better get busy and do it - work it to where you understand the Word of God in every facet, in every way of it’s utilization regarding the holy spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in and out. But I’ve discovered as I’ve worked among my people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class, there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.”
No one in upper leadership really responded to this because by 1979 everyone was giving VPW lip service but their hearts were far from obeying the revelations God was giving him to pass on to us. I totally plead guilty to this charge myself, too.
If you were not an AC grad in 1979, you may have been one later, and the instruction still was blown off. Similar instructions were given in 1984 to younger grads, and then in his last teaching of VPW told us ALL twice to master written PFAL.
You had the oportunity to see that last teaching in the Sep/Oct 1985 Way Magazine, but your buying into the God-given authority of VPW was not established in your life to the point of seeing it and then acting on it. I chalk it up to the foolishness of youth, but now that you are mature you can act on it and deal with this unfinished business. There still are areas where we got to push ourselves.
You wrote: “I don't see any difference between what you are trying to do Mike and what they are doing. You are posting here too you know.”
Here are some differences:
The renegade, reprobate leaders claim that they have picked up where Dr left off, and yet they continue to downplay Dr’s instructions to master written PFAL. I promote these final instructions.
The renegade, reprobate leaders promote the impression that they support Dr and PFAL to Dr’s followers, trying to woo them, yet they will quietly and behind the scenes, or much later come out and contradict many passages in Dr’s writings. In contrast, I seek to conform more and more to what Dr wrote. (Sure, many here claim I contradict what they THINK they remember is in PFAL, but I don’t try to conform to those partial and distorted images, just to what’s on paper and what all the writings say, not just one passage often taken alone by many.)
The renegade, reprobate leaders claim to have sat at the feet of the man of God, or are ordained, and therefore have one-up on those who did not. They demand to be the major speaker and shun give-and-take with others as equals. I don’t claim this superiority. I just claim to have finally obeyed Dr and opened my books again to meekly master and urge others to do the same. I point not to my authority to have the deciding word like the renegade, reprobate leaders do, but I urge others to accept the revelations God had Dr put into writing as the final say.
The renegade, reprobate leaders are often looking for abundant sharing loyal followers. I am not.
The renegade, reprobate leaders get nasty and threateningly tough, warning of consequences and/or cut off communication with those who cross them, defy their leadership status, or contradict them. I do not. I seek to civilly discuss our differences and keep the door open to future conversation.
You wrote: “Please don't take me as attacking you.”
Oky doky, I won’t. I’m actually touched that you would say this. Thank you. I’ll try to remember it in the future too.
***
You wrote: ‘Mike, you term "all top leadership" when you say they failed. I always wonder how you know what all the top leadership are doing. How do you know they didn't read his written works and started teaching them?”
I have spent 8 years now in watching what as many top leaders are doing as I can. I have called many by phone and e-mailed many. I’ve only been on GSC for a little over three years, but the 5 years before coming here were spent by me in the same dogged determination you’ve seen me in posting here seeking these leaders out.
I’m always wanting to find an exception to this rule I’ve seen from my many direct contacts. I have asked around in all these 8 years for any exceptions, and whenever I get a tip that so-and-so is still doing PFAL I follow up on it. When I get there I usually find that, at best, they are running video classes, but not at all mastering the written parts. Some do some dabbling or reviewing of some of the written materials, but never mastering ALL of them and never in any systematic way. Their degree if thoroughness never comes even close to seeking the degree Dr specified in that AC quote I posted in red to dmiller above. They only look at some of the collaterals, feel free to contradict any number of points in them, and they bring in outside materials that contradict them.
Do YOU know of any top leaders who are seriously implementing Dr’s final instructions in their lives and encouraging their followers to do the same? If so PLEASE tell me and I will follow-up. I will celebrate wildly if they are exceptions to the rule.
By the way, another way I have arrived at feeling confident that there are no exceptions is that this kind of universal rejection of God is a common result of the adversary’s actions and the human condition. I call it the Golden Calf Effect. It happened over and over in the OT, where everyone, or very nearly everyone forsook God. It happened in the first century where all forsook Paul. It’s the norm. What’s abnormal in THIS case of PFAL deserters is that in less than one generation some have started coming back.
I've also seen that PFAL prophetically says that all grads would forsake God. This would take soe time to demonstrate, but those who come back will see it eventually. I can help show this to the meek, but I'm not interested in proving it here.
***
You wrote: “My other question is why is it so important to do what a man says to do?”
It’s grossly UNimportant to do what a man says to do. However, if that man is relaying instructions from God, then it’s of UTMOST importance to obey. I do totally believe that God selected Dr as His spokesman to settle all the Biblical research questions that have plagued theology for centuries and to give him major revelations to us about the Return of Christ and our expected actions to walk in harmony with this Return, correcting many traditional errors as to how that Return is to occur. I don’t think that everything will be automatic, especially our participation in it. We need to be taught how to walk with God in His implementation of His plans. God issued these plans for us grads in written PFAL and that’s why He had Dr tell us for ten years and especially at the end to master written PFAL. When and only when we obey and meekly pick up PFAL to master it will God show us the next steps in this wonderful chapter in history.
In short I believe God told Dr to tell us to master written PFAL.
***
You wrote (with my minor typo corrections): “Maybe God Almighty Himself is telling them something else. Do you ignore that possibility?”
No, I didn’t ignore that at all.
From 1985 and earlier, until 1998, I looked to many leaders to have instructions from God for us, only to be bitterly disappointed. I had started deliberately and gradually tuning out Dr in 1982. In 1998 I came back and found that I had actually tuned him out much earlier, as I pointed out to dmiller that he did too, in that I did not literally act on what Dr said to do, even though I weakly claimed to believe he was in charge and getting God's revelations.
NOW, I ignore the possibility that God is giving alternate instructions to these renegade reprobate leaders, because I see how thoroughly they rejected the instructions God gave them long ago via Dr’s ministry. But I only arrived at this position after deeply considering the opposite, the possibility you suggested, and many other factors.
Do YOU ignore the possibility that God Almighty Himself was telling Dr to tell us to master PFAL?
I’d say you do and that you have done for a long time now. I seriously doubt that you ever fully explored the possibility that God spoke via Dr's ministry, not FULLY. If you want to explore this possibility I can help you. We can do it privately to avoid the certain jeers from the peanut gallery.
This thread has no one track nor one topic to get back to. It was designed by management to keep complaints down, thus minimizing hassles to them, and for me to have a spot to place my message. The topic shifts about quite a lot, and any mention of such a shift at the beginning of a post will be helpful to readers.
Think of this thread as a one-thread-forum.
I still have two more items to comment on from the Gear thread before I get back to my backlog from several weeks ago here. But now I'd like to answer most of the recent posts of today.
Mike, this thread is where we can discuss PFAL, and is the ONLY PLACE you're allowed to post your stuff without fear of being reported... and I guess technically you did post about PFAL in your post, but it was with the stuff from the CG thread.
Was it just too much to ask of you to post responses ON THAT THREAD? ...few if any people from that thread are going to come down here to read your post about that thread and you know it, so why do you do it? can you not 'edit' yourself and just address things on another thread without turning it into a 'Mike fight'? I'm sure you can... I mean you go about your business all day doing that don't you? When you're going in to get paid from one of your clients you don't say "I'm all done, that'll be $40 and by the way PFAL is God-breathed" do you?
C'mon Mike... it's just common courtesy.
This thread is set up so that you can post your "God-breathed I've got Jesus growing physically inside my brain" stuff... not as YOUR place to respond to other threads... but it is a free country, and pretty much a free board, so if you want to be rude, go ahead... it would be a pleasant surprise though if you weren't.
Tom and dmiller,
I have no idea who Revvel is but you got me interested. I’ve been here reading these weeks but sparingly. Which threads feature Revvel?
Mike, do you really think we're that stoopid to think that you really don't know who he/she is? no... wait a minute... you probably do... but that's beside the point!
It seems the management has gone out of their way for you to have a "place to spread the God-breathed PFAL word"... PLEASE DO NOT ABUSE THAT...
Otherwise, I'll ask them to change the name to "This is where Mike posts" and to put it in the Soap Opera section.
You really are living up to your last name. I can’t imagine a more strange set of comments than you just made.
You wrote: “Mike, this thread is where we can discuss PFAL, and is the ONLY PLACE you're allowed to post your stuff without fear of being reported... and I guess technically you did post about PFAL in your post, but it was with the stuff from the CG thread. __ Was it just too much to ask of you to post responses ON THAT THREAD?”
YESSSSS! It is asking too much! What kind of strange Tom are you to not understand this?
If I had posted what I posted HERE on the Gear thread instead, then it would have violated the agreement I have with management to avoid such actions. It would have generated complaints that I am filling the Gear thread with my PFAL message. I did post on the Gear thread earlier and on topic and far removed from the topic of my usual message. Yet dmiller took it upon himself to frantically bring up my PFAL message there anyway. You are losing my respect with stupid comments like the above. Get it together and think things through before you mindlessly complain about my actions! Hear me? You’re making an idiot of yourself.
***
You wrote: “...few if any people from that thread are going to come down here to read your post about that thread and you know it...”
Yes I know it and I don’t give a rats foot. Why do you?
***
You wrote: “...so why do you do it?”
None of your business! Tend to your own matters.
***
You wrote: “..can you not 'edit' yourself and just address things on another thread without turning it into a 'Mike fight'?”
Yes, I can avoid turning things into a fight by posting things closely related to my message HERE, and totally ignoring your mindless preferences.
***
You wrote: “I'm sure you can... I mean you go about your business all day doing that don't you? When you're going in to get paid from one of your clients you don't say "I'm all done, that'll be $40 and by the way PFAL is God-breathed" do you?”
Yes I most certainly can, you condescending xxxx!
And as I cited above, when I want to make a comment that is far removed from my message I do post it in the pertinent thread, like my earlier post on Geer, his earlier positives and the foreknowledge thing.
***
You wrote: “C'mon Mike... it's just common courtesy.”
No, YOU come on and get some common courtesy! I don't take your demands seriously. They are poorly thought through.
***
You wrote in very insulting derogatory terms: “This thread is set up so that you can post your "God-breathed I've got Jesus growing physically inside my brain" stuff... not as YOUR place to respond to other threads...”
Why are you even bothering to say things like this? You are just demonstrating for all that you have no logical response to what I post so you resort to trivialities, and illogical ones at that.
***
You wrote: “...but it is a free country, and pretty much a free board, so if you want to be rude, go ahead... it would be a pleasant surprise though if you weren't.”
Tom, you have beaten me to the punch at being rude by a longshot!
***
You wrote regarding my question about Revvel: “Mike, do you really think we're that stoopid to think that you really don't know who he/she is? no... wait a minute... you probably do... but that's beside the point!”
I have not been reading all the threads here like you do because I have a life.
As for stupidity, you broadcast your lack of understanding quite well.
Ok, I just found Revvel. I have a hard time getting the search function to work and was avoiding it.
I had only looked at that “signless return” thread briefly, and I was not very interested. I have no recollection of an earlier Revvel thread on 7 holy days, as that is even less interesting to me.
My position is that the Return of Christ is FAR more “signless” than any theologies I had ever heard of. Not only do I think the Return and our participation is not pre-announced and therefore quite hidden, but I also think that it’s invisible to senses bound people EVEN AS IT OCCURS!
My position is that our Gathering Together is not the sensational senses-obvious event we’ve previously thought. I think we need to develop spiritual sight to see it happening. I’m convinced it’s going on RIGHT NOW, but few are interested in it.
I do not believe that everything happens in a flash, in a twinkling of an eye, an atom of time. That does happen, but in a later stage. The early stage that is going on right now consists of God’s invitation to “rise up to meet the Lord in the air” and that the rising up is not physical, but spiritual. The “air” is not atmospheric, but the God-breathed air of what God breathes out and into us... it’s the God-breathed doctrine of PFAL.
We are to rise up from the earthly, senses bound point of view that is part of the curse of Adam, and we are to learn to see from God’s spiritual perspective. It’s not an altitude above sea level thing, measured in feet or meters, that constitutes our rising “up.” We rise from the earthly perspective to the spiritual perspective. We learn to do this by mastering PFAL. That’s why it was given to us. we are not sucked up in altitude by a physical vacuum cleaner, but we are TAUGHT to rise up SPIRITUALLY.
I’ve posted all this before. My position is very far removed from Revvel’s and that’s why I was uninterested in that thread. It amazes me how little attention is paid to what I post. To confuse me with Revvel is proof that my detractors know little about my position, just like the many proofs that they know little about the written PFAL they criticize.
This must be the "easy-to-be-entreated-love-of-God" Mike claims
to have.
Some highlights from ONE of his latests posts,
counting only the replies and not the quotes he's replying to...
YESSSSS! It is asking too much!
You are losing my respect with stupid comments like the above. Get it together and think things through before you mindlessly complain about my actions! Hear me? You’re making an idiot of yourself.
Yes I know it and I don’t give a rats foot.
None of your business! Tend to your own matters!
Yes, I can avoid turning things into a fight by posting things closely related to my message HERE, and totally ignoring your mindless preferences.
Yes I most certainly can, you condescending xxxx!
No, YOU come on and get some common courtesy! I don't take your demands seriously. They are poorly thought through.
You are just demonstrating for all that you have no logical response to what I post so you resort to trivialities, and illogical ones at that.
you have beaten me to the punch at being rude by a longshot!
I have not been reading all the threads here like you do because I have a life.
As for stupidity, you broadcast your lack of understanding quite well.
"You have beaten me to the punch at being rude by a longshot!"
Hardly, Mike. This post seems to have been dedicated ENTIRELY to "being rude."
I'm sure everyone else can see the irony of spending an entire post on insults-
which contains the quote
"You are just demonstrating for all that you have no logical response to what I post so you
resort to trivialities, and illogical ones at that."
You wrote: "This must be the "easy-to-be-entreated-love-of-God" Mike claims to have."
No, this is the kind of love where a puppy (Tom) who messes the carpet needs to have his nose shoved into his own doings to learn how his master feels when he lets loose.
***
You wrote: "...counting only the replies and not the quotes he's replying to..."
And why would you not want to include the insulting, demeaning, condescending, idiotic quotes to which I was responding to?
Is it because you want others to ignore them?
Is it a blatent attempt to take them out of context?
Just wondering?
Or was it because you want to bury the content of my other posts to more civil posters?
I mentioned earlier that there were still two more responses to the Geer thread I want to put here. One of them I’ve already alluded to. Here's the context: I had expanded my mentioning of the "God's limited foreknowledge" theory in Post #27, at Jonny Lingo’s request.
Then dmiller chimed in with Post #32 , quoting from my Post #27 thusly:
“It’s mind boggling to think that brains like Geer and the CES group have fallen for this junk.”
dmiller, you then responded to that quote from me with: “What boggles MY MIND -- is that if docvic put this in pfal -- you would believe it hook, line, and sinker. __And call it revelation, no less.”
This is still another example of you bating me on other threads by bringing up my message even though it is totally out of context of the topic at hand. You seem to be gettingh desparate.
You’re exhibiting the same desperation that Tom Strange does in his deflecting the topic(s) that were being discussed on this thread with silly and abusive administrative comments on what I should post and where.
You’re exhibiting the same desperation that WW just did in his singling out my harsh (but justified) responses to Tom by stripping them of their justification.
Dmiller, more and more, as I counter your attempts to nullify my message, you are flaying out with very desperate counter-tempts to deal with my hogtieing of yor nullifications.
Here in this latest attempt you are inventing in your own mind outrageous beliefs that I MIGHT hold when you write this: ““What boggles MY MIND -- is that if docvic put this [outrageous limited foreknowledge theory] in pfal...”
You put an outrageous belief into my position and then claim it boggles you mind.
You have no justification for doing this hypothetical placing of an outrageous belief into my position. You have no pattern to draw from. You pull the outrageousness out of the clear blue, without precedent, and then claim it boggles your mind that I COULD hold such an outrageous belief. You may even be inventing a new logical fallacy in this desparate maneuver.
Can you name one other outrageous belief I hold because it’s printed in PFAL? Just one?
Name me a page number or chapter title or article title and some quoted text of just ONE outrageous piece of doctrine printed PFAL that I embrace?
If you’re going to make a prediction of my embrace of an outrageously stupid doctrine similar to God’s limited foreknowledge IF IT WERE printed in PFAL, then name me one other such outrageous doctrine printed in PFAL and that I embrace, and from which you have deduced your prediction. Show me the pattern of repeated acceptance from which you base this baseless theory of yours.
Tom is a puppy? You are his master? You are shoving his nose in poop to show your displeasure???? ROFLMAO
Bad dog, Tom! Bad Dog! It is a good thing your master is so benevolent.....better listen close now or he will be forced to use a rolled up news paper next
You wrote: "This must be the "easy-to-be-entreated-love-of-God" Mike claims to have."
No, this is the kind of love where a puppy (Tom) who messes the carpet needs to have his nose shoved into his own doings to learn how his master feels when he lets loose.
[And Mike has yet another career-now he's some sort of
internet virtual veterinarian, inexplicably qualified to identify and diagnose
animals and their situations...
Apparently, Mike is Tom's "master" and Tom is some sort of puppy.
Other than his cold nose (which means he's healthy), I don't see it, myself.
But whatever.]
***
You wrote: "...counting only the replies and not the quotes he's replying to..."
And why would you not want to include the insulting, demeaning, condescending, idiotic quotes to which I was responding to?
[Remaining on the SAME PAGE as I did, and leaving the link intact,
it should be child's play for any poster to examine the context of each comment.
I thought of including the uncut version below it, but I said to myself
"my fellow posters are smart enough to scroll up and read for themselves,
or click and read for themselves."
And they'll see that the original post-while not according to
"Miss Manners",
hardly qualifies as "insulting" AND "demeaning" AND "condescending" AND "idiotic."
Arguably "condescending" (maybe, maybe not), but certainly none of the
others (unless you're trying out a new thesaurus.)]
Is it because you want others to ignore them?
Is it a blatent attempt to take them out of context?
[Neither, since the original post was RIGHT THERE.
Are the other posters incapable of scrolling up?
The original poster name and time were RIGHT on the post (which I included),
as was the click-link. If they were a misrepresentation, surely most posters
could EASILY see I was not intellectually honest....]
Just wondering?
Or was it because you want to bury the content of my other posts to more civil posters?
Or both?
[Or maybe I meant EXACTLY what I meant to point out-
your own comments demonstrated an INTERNAL hypocricy,
AND were dripping with venom while SUPPOSEDLY representing the God
who so Loved that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whomsoever believes in
him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Christ died for Tom, and it looks like you wanted Tom dead as well.]
I mentioned earlier that there were still two more responses to the Geer thread I want to put here. One of them I’ve already alluded to. Here's the context: I had expanded my mentioning of the "God's limited foreknowledge" theory in Post #27, at Jonny Lingo’s request.
Then dmiller chimed in with Post #32 , quoting from my Post #27 thusly:
“It’s mind boggling to think that brains like Geer and the CES group have fallen for this junk.”
dmiller, you then responded to that quote from me with: “What boggles MY MIND -- is that if docvic put this in pfal -- you would believe it hook, line, and sinker. __And call it revelation, no less.”
[Actually, dmiller is CORRECT.
If this WAS in pfal, you would believe it completely AND call it 'revelation'.
I'd go the extra mile and say that if you thought it was mysteriously HIDDEN
in pfal and ONLY YOU SAW IT cabalistically occulted in its depths,
you'd not only call it 'revelation',
you'd glory in your ability to see what none of us could,
and call yourself more erudite for it.]
This is still another example of you bating me on other threads by bringing up my message even though it is totally out of context of the topic at hand.
[Or, he made a legitimate observation which stood on its own and did not
require discussion.
He WAS RIGHT, and you COULD have just let it go even if you refused
to evaluate his comment on its own merits.
Since you brought it up again, you ARE perforce inviting us to comment
on it and evaluate it ourselves.]
You seem to be gettingh desparate.
You’re exhibiting the same desperation that Tom Strange does in his deflecting the topic(s) that were being discussed on this thread with silly and abusive administrative comments on what I should post and where.
You’re exhibiting the same desperation that WW just did in his singling out my harsh (but justified) responses to Tom by stripping them of their justification.
[behold the Ubiquitously-Hidden desperation in everyone else's posts!
Any post Mike doesn't like is now "Desperate".
dmiller's posts are desperate, Tom's are desperate, WW's are desperate...
Reminds me of a story I read once...]
Dmiller, more and more, as I counter your attempts to nullify my message, you are flaying out with very desperate counter-tempts to deal with my hogtieing of yor nullifications.
[Your message, frankly, nullifies itself. All dmiller did was make an observation.
He didn't "flay", or show "desperation".
Further, you didn't "hogtie".
Labelling a jar of pickles as "apple butter" does not change the pickles...]
Here in this latest attempt you are inventing in your own mind outrageous beliefs that I MIGHT hold when you write this: ““What boggles MY MIND -- is that if docvic put this [outrageous limited foreknowledge theory] in pfal...”
You put an outrageous belief into my position and then claim it boggles you mind.
[No, he was extrapolating based on what YOU YOURSELF CLAIMED
of YOUR OWN BELIEFS.
You claim that the contents of pfal-no matter what they are-are 'revelation'.
So, if ANYTHING was suddenly found there, no matter how outrageous,
you would make the same claim of it.]
You have no justification for doing this hypothetical placing of an outrageous belief into my position. You have no pattern to draw from. You pull the outrageousness out of the clear blue, without precedent, and then claim it boggles your mind that I COULD hold such an outrageous belief. You may even be inventing a new logical fallacy in this desparate maneuver.
Can you name one other outrageous belief I hold because it’s printed in PFAL? Just one?
[Well, you claimed OF pfal that Jesus Christ was studying it and that
he would teach us from it upon his return.
Concerning its contents, you're insistent that "believing" is a "Law" and that it
is thus "immutable" and, according to pfal, that "God would have to change the laws
of the universe" for it not to work,
when it fails to work ALL THE TIME.
You've added all sorts of caveats and codicils to it that nullify its usefulness
in order to not say "it doesn't work".
Do you need page numbers about this "Law"?
We've discussed it LOTS of times....]
Name me a page number or chapter title or article title and some quoted text of just ONE outrageous piece of doctrine printed PFAL that I embrace?
If you’re going to make a prediction of my embrace of an outrageously stupid doctrine similar to God’s limited foreknowledge IF IT WERE printed in PFAL, then name me one other such outrageous doctrine printed in PFAL and that I embrace, and from which you have deduced your prediction. Show me the pattern of repeated acceptance from which you base this baseless theory of yours.
Can you name even ONE outrageous PFAL doctrine?
[besides the "law" of believing, dmiller, feel free to add your own.
You might mention that it makes the terms
"all without distinction" and "all with a distinction" completely synonymous
if his "the written pfal is all God-breathed" is correct.
You did the same basic thing dmiller did on that Geer thread, but I have to credit you in the WAY you did it.
At least you had some style in your approach, and you did it so briefly and subtly that it didn’t even come close to disrupting the topic flow by dragging in my message in a blatant way, like dmillers's bating. I think you did the same thing dmiller tried to do in such a way that many posters probably didn’t even catch it. I actually found it intellectually amusing when I happened upon your Post #38, and not in a derisive way. I admired your wit.
Let's review.
Again, the context was the outrageously stupid limited foreknowledge theory on that Geer thread.
You quoted me thusly: “The limited foreknowledge theory is one of the stupidest, blindest pieces of intellectual garbage I've ever seen.”
You then responded with: “I'd put it second. __ Oh, wait, "intellectual." You're right.”
I actually had a good belly laugh when I saw that. I also have a response.
***
For those who didn’t get it, what you were saying (without actually saying it) is this:
“I’d put the limited foreknowledge theory second, because Mike’s God-breathed PFAL theory is the stupidest, blindest piece of intellectual garbage I've ever seen.
“Oh wait___ Mike’s theory isn’t intellectual at all. Mike’s theory is only the stupidest, blindest piece of UNintellectual garbage I've ever seen.
“Yes, Mike, you’re right. The limited foreknowledge theory IS the stupidest, blindest pieces of intellectual garbage I've ever seen.”
***
Ok, now for my response. You’re right, Raf, in your pegging my belief in God-breathed PFAL as non-intellectual. My belief is not a result of intellectual machinations. I have often here asserted that it cannot be proved or derived by intellectual means.
Holding a position that is not intellectually justified irks intellectuals. It offends them. When I step into an intellectual mode of thought it irks me when someone comes along and states something that cannot be intellectually justified, or derived from some other accepted body of knowledge using accepted intellectual methods of sound reasoning ans logic.
But when I step into an intellectual mode I have learned to not take it too seriously, like many intellectuals do. I do not worship the human intellect as capable of arriving at the deeper, more important things in life. I recognize human intellect as a mere tool for dealing with senses matters, and that it is totally useless in deriving spiritual truths.
Human intellect is put to shame by God when it tries to assert itself into God’s realm.
***
I Corinthians 1:17-31
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words [like intellectual derivations], lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom[like intellectual derivations]: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world [like breathing His life into PFAL] to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world [like me, maybe?] to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised [like VPW, maybe?], hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
***
Raf, surely you can understand what I’m saying here because you go through the exact same set of ideas I just did every time you witness to an agnostic, or atheist, or Christ rejecter. They ask you for your intellectual derivation to justify your belief that Jesus Christ was literally raised from the dead and you boldly tell them that they must set aside their intellect and first believe to then see. You tell them that belief that the original manuscripts of the Bible were perfect and flawless is the STARTING point for your intellectual exercises, and is in the category of a postulate, and not an intellectually derived theorem.
Your fundamental beliefs are not intellectually derived from other fundamental beliefs, by definition. The same way you brush off criticism that your life is intellectually dishonest because you believe in God’s Word given in ancient times in dead languages, I too brush off your criticism of me that my life is intellectually dishonest because I believe in God’s Word given in modern times in plain English.
***
From “The Bible tells Me So” on pages 23 and 24 we see:
II Corinthians 9:8: And God is able, to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things may abound to every good work.
Have we been limiting God in our lives? We must be if we do not have all sufficiency in everything. Sufficiency is the will of God for His children in order that His children may abound unto every good work. Our having sufficiency is God’s will for us; yet how many of us have limited God by not allowing Him to fulfill this promise in our lives? How slow we have been to realize that God is our ability, that He is the life of our lives, the strength of our strength, that He is our sufficiency.
We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, “That just cannot be,” and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, “Sufficiency in everything.” We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual, where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true. As there are four kingdoms in this world, and one supersedes the other: the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God; so, there is a natural world and a supernatural or spiritual world. The natural world and everything in it comes to the mind through or by way of the natural senses. The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man.
We cannot know anything about the spiritual world by way of the senses. That is why Paul said by divine inspiration in I Corinthians 2:14, “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him ... because they [spiritual matters] are spiritually discerned.”
Spiritual things from the spiritual world may be known in this world only by the spirit which dwells in us. Then, and only then, can the Spirit relate impressions and truths to us about the spiritual world and make them logical. Then, and only then, do we have the God-given ability within us, making known to us things about the spiritual world.
I'm finally ready to look at that weeks-old backlog from this thread.
Assuming I find some time in today's busy schedule, and assuming no others will post noteworthy items in the meantime, I should finally get underway at hacking away at that old backlog.... assuming those assumptions are true... well... MAYBE I'll get to the backlog SOMEDAY... [note to self: buy lottery ticket]
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words [like intellectual derivations], lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom[like intellectual derivations]: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world [like breathing His life into PFAL] to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world [like me, maybe?] to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised [like VPW, maybe?], hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption
Hey, I think I can do that too!!!!!!
Galatians 1:8But even if we, or an angel from heaven [or New Knoxville], should preach to you a gospel contrary [such as PFAL] to what we preach to you he [such as VPW] is to be accursed. NASB T-Bone Amplified Version
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dmiller
But it can't be explained, since we are unworthy, and *hard of hearing*. ;)
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Mike
I sometimes dream of winning the lottery or finding a stopwatch like the one on Twilight Zone that literally halts time, just so that I can catch up with all the backlog of posts I’d like to respond to. Now that I’ve finished my taxes and gotten a little caught up with my work I can do a little responding, along with the usual springboarding that other posters so often generously give me the opportunity to do.
But the backlog for this thread will have to wait, because I recently saw several posts on the “Geer Anyone Got Anything Good to Say?” thread in the About the Way forum. I only have time for one right now.
Over there GrouchoMarxJr, in Post #61, made an interesting observation that I concur with and would like to elaborate on. But first I want to re-write that post to fit more with the reality of the situation.
From what I’ve seen Chris Geer is just another one of the many “VPW clones” that survived TWI with their “persona” intact. It seems that many of the “top leaders” from TWI have SIGNIFICANTLY ERRED in following in footsteps of their father in the Word.
Number one error is that they all failed to pick up on Dr’s ten years of urging them to master the written forms of PFAL, from the early hints in 1975 to the sledgehammer ’79 AC demand that RHST be nearly memorized, to the last gentle but firm and twice mentioned urging in Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching.
This last teaching was not only universally disobeyed by all the top leadership and clergy, but it was not passed on to the rest of us in any effective way either. Dr’s ten years of urging them all to master written PFAL was trodden underfoot in a most cavalier and arrogant way by all of them.
As a result they did not and DO not know the accuracy of God’s Word, and they are totally taken in (and even instigators of) the many TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions) that sunk the ministry twenty years ago.
They all have succumbed to different errors and have different weakness themselves, so their many splinter ministries suffer from a large variety of ills, some overt and some hidden. Some are nice guys and some are not. Some have a large number of good principles, but not enough to keep them from wandering later either into fires or off into weak obscurity.
In addition to missing the accuracy of the Word that was given to them in written form, some are aware of many good and sound ideas, YET they often misapply them grossly. One example of this is that some misappropriate the 1942 promise to themselves, thinking they can reject the body of work God taught Dr and Dr put into written form, and that they can count on God to bless their research efforts to come up with an abundance of truth.
Then another common misapplication of sound doctrine I’ve seen rampant in the ranks of former leaders is the Biblically sound idea of double honor due those who have brought us the Word, the high degree of respect due to any man whom God selects to be His spokesman.
Waltzing back into by borrowing from GrouchoMarxJr, I’d say it seems that it is more preferable to these gentlemen to be the top banana of their own little group, than to regroup together into one big splinter group.
VPW rightfully demanded “his way or the highway” because God was working with him in a special, 2000 year unique fashion, and God placed him as the one in charge. But these disobedient, defiant, and reprobate former leaders have unjustifiably cloned themselves into the same mode of operation VPW rightfully exercised, and all want to be “top dog” in a pack of other dogs all wanting the same honor without doing the same work to earn it.
Division in these circles is inevitable. When the true man of God died, it became like a bad soap opera...Geer played his part, and what a part it was. So have many others in their time and place and sphere of influence. I run into them all the time.
These men, upon first contact with me, are gracious and tender in their behavior. They try to schmooze me, praise me for my respect for VPW, and assure me that they too still love and respect him. They have years of habit patterns of carefully drawing upon the respect that many non-leader, non-Corps grads have for the man, VPW, who originally taught them the Word.
These former TWI leaders feign this respect for Dr to avoid loosing potential followers and abundant sharers in the people who still love Dr and PFAL, all the while they have been quietly amplifying their initial defiance of Dr’s final instructions by opposing point after point in the material they were told to master.
I see they are used to being top dogs in their operations so I go slow with them. As I lay out for them the itinerary Dr had insisted upon, they do their best to agree with me and yes me to death. But the soon also start to remind me that they “sat at the feet of the man of God” while I had not. They remind me they had the “official” training while I had not. They remind me of the years of hard work and sweat they have put into their operation, sounding just like Geer in his POP self praise.
But I’ve seen this pattern so often that I just methodically press on and lay out for them what Dr told them to do and what they refused to do. I do this as politely and coolly as I am capable of doing. I point out that their KJV research is void of authority and just another opinion in a sea of them, and that Dr was given authority and direct teaching from God to settle the issues. I assert slowly that these renegade leaders are trying to re-invent wheels that are already available for me to roll with.
At some point they finally get it, that I am not meek to them and never will be, and that I have the evidence in hand that they are far from really respecting VPW. These sad sacks are merely using a show of respect for VPW to win converts from the pool of grads who genuinely respect him and VPW. When these guys reach this point of seeing that I am solid in insisting it’s THEY that need to change course and not me, they drop me like a hot potato. Their schmoozing either turns to callous, hard, nasty threats of my spiritual doom, or they cut and run, never again returning my calls or e-mails and doing the M&A trip on me with their followers.
It’s a repeating pattern. Some of these renegade leaders have even posted here, and many are known here. They are good at the schmooze techniques and are liked by some here.
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Nottawayfer
Mike, you term "all top leadership" when you say they failed. I always wonder how you know what all the top leadership are doing. How do you know they didn't read his written works and started teaching them?
My other question is why is it so important to do what a man says to do? May God Almight Himself is telling them something else. Do you ignore that possibility?
Please don't take me as attacking you.
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CM
I don't see any difference between what you are trying to do Mike and what they are doing.
You are posting here too you know.
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Tom Strange
OK Revvel Mike... now that you've brought the thread back up to the top how about getting back on track... we know you've been 'hanging out' at the cafe for the last week or so but not touching your beloved tread...
so now that you brought it back to life, go ahead and get back to it... or let it die the quiet slow death it so richly deserves...
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dmiller
Sadly -- I bought into that at one point in my life.
I chalk it up to the *foolishness of youth*, (these days).
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CM
VPW rightfully demanded “his way or the highway”
obviously full of himself, selfish punk
VPW was anti Christ
Jesus Christ is the way-not pfal which doesn't even teach Jesus Christ
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Raf
So did he just spend like 100 lines reviving this thread just to say he had nothing to say about the thread?
Get back on topic.
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dmiller
Tom -- It's my (IMO) that Revvel and Mike are not the same person. :)
Revvel has a completely different message, and doesn't mention pfal.
Mike (also) has a completely different message, but mentions pfal in every breath.
Methinks the two are not the same person.
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Tom Strange
I'll give you that dave... but are they in the same body?
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Mike
Tom Strange and Raf,
This thread has no one track nor one topic to get back to. It was designed by management to keep complaints down, thus minimizing hassles to them, and for me to have a spot to place my message. The topic shifts about quite a lot, and any mention of such a shift at the beginning of a post will be helpful to readers.
Think of this thread as a one-thread-forum.
I still have two more items to comment on from the Gear thread before I get back to my backlog from several weeks ago here. But now I'd like to answer most of the recent posts of today.
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Tom and dmiller,
I have no idea who Revvel is but you got me interested. I’ve been here reading these weeks but sparingly. Which threads feature Revvel?
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dmiller,
I had written: “VPW rightfully demanded “his way or the highway” because God was working with him in a special, 2000 year unique fashion, and God placed him as the one in charge.”
You responded with: “Sadly -- I bought into that at one point in my life. I chalk it up to the *foolishness of youth*, (these days).”
No, the sad thing is that you didn’t go far enough with buying it. If you had really bought the idea you would have responded to this instruction in segment 5 of the 1979 AC to the all the AC students and all the AC grads:
“I have set for our people, and it’s set in the book on ‘Receiving the Holy Spirit Today,’ and people, when you reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost to quote this line for line. You should have mastered this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class. If you haven’t, you better get busy and do it - work it to where you understand the Word of God in every facet, in every way of it’s utilization regarding the holy spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in and out. But I’ve discovered as I’ve worked among my people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class, there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.”
No one in upper leadership really responded to this because by 1979 everyone was giving VPW lip service but their hearts were far from obeying the revelations God was giving him to pass on to us. I totally plead guilty to this charge myself, too.
If you were not an AC grad in 1979, you may have been one later, and the instruction still was blown off. Similar instructions were given in 1984 to younger grads, and then in his last teaching of VPW told us ALL twice to master written PFAL.
You had the oportunity to see that last teaching in the Sep/Oct 1985 Way Magazine, but your buying into the God-given authority of VPW was not established in your life to the point of seeing it and then acting on it. I chalk it up to the foolishness of youth, but now that you are mature you can act on it and deal with this unfinished business. There still are areas where we got to push ourselves.
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CM,
You wrote: “I don't see any difference between what you are trying to do Mike and what they are doing. You are posting here too you know.”
Here are some differences:
The renegade, reprobate leaders claim that they have picked up where Dr left off, and yet they continue to downplay Dr’s instructions to master written PFAL. I promote these final instructions.
The renegade, reprobate leaders promote the impression that they support Dr and PFAL to Dr’s followers, trying to woo them, yet they will quietly and behind the scenes, or much later come out and contradict many passages in Dr’s writings. In contrast, I seek to conform more and more to what Dr wrote. (Sure, many here claim I contradict what they THINK they remember is in PFAL, but I don’t try to conform to those partial and distorted images, just to what’s on paper and what all the writings say, not just one passage often taken alone by many.)
The renegade, reprobate leaders claim to have sat at the feet of the man of God, or are ordained, and therefore have one-up on those who did not. They demand to be the major speaker and shun give-and-take with others as equals. I don’t claim this superiority. I just claim to have finally obeyed Dr and opened my books again to meekly master and urge others to do the same. I point not to my authority to have the deciding word like the renegade, reprobate leaders do, but I urge others to accept the revelations God had Dr put into writing as the final say.
The renegade, reprobate leaders are often looking for abundant sharing loyal followers. I am not.
The renegade, reprobate leaders get nasty and threateningly tough, warning of consequences and/or cut off communication with those who cross them, defy their leadership status, or contradict them. I do not. I seek to civilly discuss our differences and keep the door open to future conversation.
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Wayfer Not,
You wrote: “Please don't take me as attacking you.”
Oky doky, I won’t. I’m actually touched that you would say this. Thank you. I’ll try to remember it in the future too.
***
You wrote: ‘Mike, you term "all top leadership" when you say they failed. I always wonder how you know what all the top leadership are doing. How do you know they didn't read his written works and started teaching them?”
I have spent 8 years now in watching what as many top leaders are doing as I can. I have called many by phone and e-mailed many. I’ve only been on GSC for a little over three years, but the 5 years before coming here were spent by me in the same dogged determination you’ve seen me in posting here seeking these leaders out.
I’m always wanting to find an exception to this rule I’ve seen from my many direct contacts. I have asked around in all these 8 years for any exceptions, and whenever I get a tip that so-and-so is still doing PFAL I follow up on it. When I get there I usually find that, at best, they are running video classes, but not at all mastering the written parts. Some do some dabbling or reviewing of some of the written materials, but never mastering ALL of them and never in any systematic way. Their degree if thoroughness never comes even close to seeking the degree Dr specified in that AC quote I posted in red to dmiller above. They only look at some of the collaterals, feel free to contradict any number of points in them, and they bring in outside materials that contradict them.
Do YOU know of any top leaders who are seriously implementing Dr’s final instructions in their lives and encouraging their followers to do the same? If so PLEASE tell me and I will follow-up. I will celebrate wildly if they are exceptions to the rule.
By the way, another way I have arrived at feeling confident that there are no exceptions is that this kind of universal rejection of God is a common result of the adversary’s actions and the human condition. I call it the Golden Calf Effect. It happened over and over in the OT, where everyone, or very nearly everyone forsook God. It happened in the first century where all forsook Paul. It’s the norm. What’s abnormal in THIS case of PFAL deserters is that in less than one generation some have started coming back.
I've also seen that PFAL prophetically says that all grads would forsake God. This would take soe time to demonstrate, but those who come back will see it eventually. I can help show this to the meek, but I'm not interested in proving it here.
***
You wrote: “My other question is why is it so important to do what a man says to do?”
It’s grossly UNimportant to do what a man says to do. However, if that man is relaying instructions from God, then it’s of UTMOST importance to obey. I do totally believe that God selected Dr as His spokesman to settle all the Biblical research questions that have plagued theology for centuries and to give him major revelations to us about the Return of Christ and our expected actions to walk in harmony with this Return, correcting many traditional errors as to how that Return is to occur. I don’t think that everything will be automatic, especially our participation in it. We need to be taught how to walk with God in His implementation of His plans. God issued these plans for us grads in written PFAL and that’s why He had Dr tell us for ten years and especially at the end to master written PFAL. When and only when we obey and meekly pick up PFAL to master it will God show us the next steps in this wonderful chapter in history.
In short I believe God told Dr to tell us to master written PFAL.
***
You wrote (with my minor typo corrections): “Maybe God Almighty Himself is telling them something else. Do you ignore that possibility?”
No, I didn’t ignore that at all.
From 1985 and earlier, until 1998, I looked to many leaders to have instructions from God for us, only to be bitterly disappointed. I had started deliberately and gradually tuning out Dr in 1982. In 1998 I came back and found that I had actually tuned him out much earlier, as I pointed out to dmiller that he did too, in that I did not literally act on what Dr said to do, even though I weakly claimed to believe he was in charge and getting God's revelations.
NOW, I ignore the possibility that God is giving alternate instructions to these renegade reprobate leaders, because I see how thoroughly they rejected the instructions God gave them long ago via Dr’s ministry. But I only arrived at this position after deeply considering the opposite, the possibility you suggested, and many other factors.
Do YOU ignore the possibility that God Almighty Himself was telling Dr to tell us to master PFAL?
I’d say you do and that you have done for a long time now. I seriously doubt that you ever fully explored the possibility that God spoke via Dr's ministry, not FULLY. If you want to explore this possibility I can help you. We can do it privately to avoid the certain jeers from the peanut gallery.
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Tom Strange
It seems the management has gone out of their way for you to have a "place to spread the God-breathed PFAL word"... PLEASE DO NOT ABUSE THAT...
Otherwise, I'll ask them to change the name to "This is where Mike posts" and to put it in the Soap Opera section.
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Mike
Tom,
You really are living up to your last name. I can’t imagine a more strange set of comments than you just made.
You wrote: “Mike, this thread is where we can discuss PFAL, and is the ONLY PLACE you're allowed to post your stuff without fear of being reported... and I guess technically you did post about PFAL in your post, but it was with the stuff from the CG thread. __ Was it just too much to ask of you to post responses ON THAT THREAD?”
YESSSSS! It is asking too much! What kind of strange Tom are you to not understand this?
If I had posted what I posted HERE on the Gear thread instead, then it would have violated the agreement I have with management to avoid such actions. It would have generated complaints that I am filling the Gear thread with my PFAL message. I did post on the Gear thread earlier and on topic and far removed from the topic of my usual message. Yet dmiller took it upon himself to frantically bring up my PFAL message there anyway. You are losing my respect with stupid comments like the above. Get it together and think things through before you mindlessly complain about my actions! Hear me? You’re making an idiot of yourself.
***
You wrote: “...few if any people from that thread are going to come down here to read your post about that thread and you know it...”
Yes I know it and I don’t give a rats foot. Why do you?
***
You wrote: “...so why do you do it?”
None of your business! Tend to your own matters.
***
You wrote: “..can you not 'edit' yourself and just address things on another thread without turning it into a 'Mike fight'?”
Yes, I can avoid turning things into a fight by posting things closely related to my message HERE, and totally ignoring your mindless preferences.
***
You wrote: “I'm sure you can... I mean you go about your business all day doing that don't you? When you're going in to get paid from one of your clients you don't say "I'm all done, that'll be $40 and by the way PFAL is God-breathed" do you?”
Yes I most certainly can, you condescending xxxx!
And as I cited above, when I want to make a comment that is far removed from my message I do post it in the pertinent thread, like my earlier post on Geer, his earlier positives and the foreknowledge thing.
***
You wrote: “C'mon Mike... it's just common courtesy.”
No, YOU come on and get some common courtesy! I don't take your demands seriously. They are poorly thought through.
***
You wrote in very insulting derogatory terms: “This thread is set up so that you can post your "God-breathed I've got Jesus growing physically inside my brain" stuff... not as YOUR place to respond to other threads...”
Why are you even bothering to say things like this? You are just demonstrating for all that you have no logical response to what I post so you resort to trivialities, and illogical ones at that.
***
You wrote: “...but it is a free country, and pretty much a free board, so if you want to be rude, go ahead... it would be a pleasant surprise though if you weren't.”
Tom, you have beaten me to the punch at being rude by a longshot!
***
You wrote regarding my question about Revvel: “Mike, do you really think we're that stoopid to think that you really don't know who he/she is? no... wait a minute... you probably do... but that's beside the point!”
I have not been reading all the threads here like you do because I have a life.
As for stupidity, you broadcast your lack of understanding quite well.
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Mike
Ok, I just found Revvel. I have a hard time getting the search function to work and was avoiding it.
I had only looked at that “signless return” thread briefly, and I was not very interested. I have no recollection of an earlier Revvel thread on 7 holy days, as that is even less interesting to me.
My position is that the Return of Christ is FAR more “signless” than any theologies I had ever heard of. Not only do I think the Return and our participation is not pre-announced and therefore quite hidden, but I also think that it’s invisible to senses bound people EVEN AS IT OCCURS!
My position is that our Gathering Together is not the sensational senses-obvious event we’ve previously thought. I think we need to develop spiritual sight to see it happening. I’m convinced it’s going on RIGHT NOW, but few are interested in it.
I do not believe that everything happens in a flash, in a twinkling of an eye, an atom of time. That does happen, but in a later stage. The early stage that is going on right now consists of God’s invitation to “rise up to meet the Lord in the air” and that the rising up is not physical, but spiritual. The “air” is not atmospheric, but the God-breathed air of what God breathes out and into us... it’s the God-breathed doctrine of PFAL.
We are to rise up from the earthly, senses bound point of view that is part of the curse of Adam, and we are to learn to see from God’s spiritual perspective. It’s not an altitude above sea level thing, measured in feet or meters, that constitutes our rising “up.” We rise from the earthly perspective to the spiritual perspective. We learn to do this by mastering PFAL. That’s why it was given to us. we are not sucked up in altitude by a physical vacuum cleaner, but we are TAUGHT to rise up SPIRITUALLY.
I’ve posted all this before. My position is very far removed from Revvel’s and that’s why I was uninterested in that thread. It amazes me how little attention is paid to what I post. To confuse me with Revvel is proof that my detractors know little about my position, just like the many proofs that they know little about the written PFAL they criticize.
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WordWolf
This must be the "easy-to-be-entreated-love-of-God" Mike claims
to have.
Some highlights from ONE of his latests posts,
counting only the replies and not the quotes he's replying to...
"You have beaten me to the punch at being rude by a longshot!"
Hardly, Mike. This post seems to have been dedicated ENTIRELY to "being rude."
I'm sure everyone else can see the irony of spending an entire post on insults-
which contains the quote
"You are just demonstrating for all that you have no logical response to what I post so you
resort to trivialities, and illogical ones at that."
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Mike
WW,
You wrote: "This must be the "easy-to-be-entreated-love-of-God" Mike claims to have."
No, this is the kind of love where a puppy (Tom) who messes the carpet needs to have his nose shoved into his own doings to learn how his master feels when he lets loose.
***
You wrote: "...counting only the replies and not the quotes he's replying to..."
And why would you not want to include the insulting, demeaning, condescending, idiotic quotes to which I was responding to?
Is it because you want others to ignore them?
Is it a blatent attempt to take them out of context?
Just wondering?
Or was it because you want to bury the content of my other posts to more civil posters?
Or both?
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Mike
I mentioned earlier that there were still two more responses to the Geer thread I want to put here. One of them I’ve already alluded to. Here's the context: I had expanded my mentioning of the "God's limited foreknowledge" theory in Post #27, at Jonny Lingo’s request.
Then dmiller chimed in with Post #32 , quoting from my Post #27 thusly:
“It’s mind boggling to think that brains like Geer and the CES group have fallen for this junk.”
dmiller, you then responded to that quote from me with: “What boggles MY MIND -- is that if docvic put this in pfal -- you would believe it hook, line, and sinker. __And call it revelation, no less.”
This is still another example of you bating me on other threads by bringing up my message even though it is totally out of context of the topic at hand. You seem to be gettingh desparate.
You’re exhibiting the same desperation that Tom Strange does in his deflecting the topic(s) that were being discussed on this thread with silly and abusive administrative comments on what I should post and where.
You’re exhibiting the same desperation that WW just did in his singling out my harsh (but justified) responses to Tom by stripping them of their justification.
Dmiller, more and more, as I counter your attempts to nullify my message, you are flaying out with very desperate counter-tempts to deal with my hogtieing of yor nullifications.
Here in this latest attempt you are inventing in your own mind outrageous beliefs that I MIGHT hold when you write this: ““What boggles MY MIND -- is that if docvic put this [outrageous limited foreknowledge theory] in pfal...”
You put an outrageous belief into my position and then claim it boggles you mind.
You have no justification for doing this hypothetical placing of an outrageous belief into my position. You have no pattern to draw from. You pull the outrageousness out of the clear blue, without precedent, and then claim it boggles your mind that I COULD hold such an outrageous belief. You may even be inventing a new logical fallacy in this desparate maneuver.
Can you name one other outrageous belief I hold because it’s printed in PFAL? Just one?
Name me a page number or chapter title or article title and some quoted text of just ONE outrageous piece of doctrine printed PFAL that I embrace?
If you’re going to make a prediction of my embrace of an outrageously stupid doctrine similar to God’s limited foreknowledge IF IT WERE printed in PFAL, then name me one other such outrageous doctrine printed in PFAL and that I embrace, and from which you have deduced your prediction. Show me the pattern of repeated acceptance from which you base this baseless theory of yours.
Can you name even ONE outrageous PFAL doctrine?
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rascal
Tom is a puppy? You are his master? You are shoving his nose in poop to show your displeasure???? ROFLMAO
Bad dog, Tom! Bad Dog! It is a good thing your master is so benevolent.....better listen close now or he will be forced to use a rolled up news paper next
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Mike
rascal,
It was HIS OWN poop!
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WordWolf
[And Mike has yet another career-now he's some sort of
internet virtual veterinarian, inexplicably qualified to identify and diagnose
animals and their situations...
Apparently, Mike is Tom's "master" and Tom is some sort of puppy.
Other than his cold nose (which means he's healthy), I don't see it, myself.
But whatever.]
[Remaining on the SAME PAGE as I did, and leaving the link intact,it should be child's play for any poster to examine the context of each comment.
I thought of including the uncut version below it, but I said to myself
"my fellow posters are smart enough to scroll up and read for themselves,
or click and read for themselves."
And they'll see that the original post-while not according to
"Miss Manners",
hardly qualifies as "insulting" AND "demeaning" AND "condescending" AND "idiotic."
Arguably "condescending" (maybe, maybe not), but certainly none of the
others (unless you're trying out a new thesaurus.)]
[Neither, since the original post was RIGHT THERE.
Are the other posters incapable of scrolling up?
The original poster name and time were RIGHT on the post (which I included),
as was the click-link. If they were a misrepresentation, surely most posters
could EASILY see I was not intellectually honest....]
[Or maybe I meant EXACTLY what I meant to point out-
your own comments demonstrated an INTERNAL hypocricy,
AND were dripping with venom while SUPPOSEDLY representing the God
who so Loved that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whomsoever believes in
him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Christ died for Tom, and it looks like you wanted Tom dead as well.]
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WordWolf
[Actually, dmiller is CORRECT.
If this WAS in pfal, you would believe it completely AND call it 'revelation'.
I'd go the extra mile and say that if you thought it was mysteriously HIDDEN
in pfal and ONLY YOU SAW IT cabalistically occulted in its depths,
you'd not only call it 'revelation',
you'd glory in your ability to see what none of us could,
and call yourself more erudite for it.]
[Or, he made a legitimate observation which stood on its own and did notrequire discussion.
He WAS RIGHT, and you COULD have just let it go even if you refused
to evaluate his comment on its own merits.
Since you brought it up again, you ARE perforce inviting us to comment
on it and evaluate it ourselves.]
[behold the Ubiquitously-Hidden desperation in everyone else's posts!
Any post Mike doesn't like is now "Desperate".
dmiller's posts are desperate, Tom's are desperate, WW's are desperate...
Reminds me of a story I read once...]
[Your message, frankly, nullifies itself. All dmiller did was make an observation.He didn't "flay", or show "desperation".
Further, you didn't "hogtie".
Labelling a jar of pickles as "apple butter" does not change the pickles...]
[No, he was extrapolating based on what YOU YOURSELF CLAIMED
of YOUR OWN BELIEFS.
You claim that the contents of pfal-no matter what they are-are 'revelation'.
So, if ANYTHING was suddenly found there, no matter how outrageous,
you would make the same claim of it.]
[Well, you claimed OF pfal that Jesus Christ was studying it and thathe would teach us from it upon his return.
Concerning its contents, you're insistent that "believing" is a "Law" and that it
is thus "immutable" and, according to pfal, that "God would have to change the laws
of the universe" for it not to work,
when it fails to work ALL THE TIME.
You've added all sorts of caveats and codicils to it that nullify its usefulness
in order to not say "it doesn't work".
Do you need page numbers about this "Law"?
We've discussed it LOTS of times....]
[besides the "law" of believing, dmiller, feel free to add your own.
You might mention that it makes the terms
"all without distinction" and "all with a distinction" completely synonymous
if his "the written pfal is all God-breathed" is correct.
Or you can pick your own.]
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Mike
WordWolf,
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me another one.
****************************************************************
****************************************************************
****************************************************************
****************************************************************
Raf,
You did the same basic thing dmiller did on that Geer thread, but I have to credit you in the WAY you did it.
At least you had some style in your approach, and you did it so briefly and subtly that it didn’t even come close to disrupting the topic flow by dragging in my message in a blatant way, like dmillers's bating. I think you did the same thing dmiller tried to do in such a way that many posters probably didn’t even catch it. I actually found it intellectually amusing when I happened upon your Post #38, and not in a derisive way. I admired your wit.
Let's review.
Again, the context was the outrageously stupid limited foreknowledge theory on that Geer thread.
You quoted me thusly: “The limited foreknowledge theory is one of the stupidest, blindest pieces of intellectual garbage I've ever seen.”
You then responded with: “I'd put it second. __ Oh, wait, "intellectual." You're right.”
I actually had a good belly laugh when I saw that. I also have a response.
***
For those who didn’t get it, what you were saying (without actually saying it) is this:
“I’d put the limited foreknowledge theory second, because Mike’s God-breathed PFAL theory is the stupidest, blindest piece of intellectual garbage I've ever seen.
“Oh wait___ Mike’s theory isn’t intellectual at all. Mike’s theory is only the stupidest, blindest piece of UNintellectual garbage I've ever seen.
“Yes, Mike, you’re right. The limited foreknowledge theory IS the stupidest, blindest pieces of intellectual garbage I've ever seen.”
***
Ok, now for my response. You’re right, Raf, in your pegging my belief in God-breathed PFAL as non-intellectual. My belief is not a result of intellectual machinations. I have often here asserted that it cannot be proved or derived by intellectual means.
Holding a position that is not intellectually justified irks intellectuals. It offends them. When I step into an intellectual mode of thought it irks me when someone comes along and states something that cannot be intellectually justified, or derived from some other accepted body of knowledge using accepted intellectual methods of sound reasoning ans logic.
But when I step into an intellectual mode I have learned to not take it too seriously, like many intellectuals do. I do not worship the human intellect as capable of arriving at the deeper, more important things in life. I recognize human intellect as a mere tool for dealing with senses matters, and that it is totally useless in deriving spiritual truths.
Human intellect is put to shame by God when it tries to assert itself into God’s realm.
***
I Corinthians 1:17-31
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words [like intellectual derivations], lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom[like intellectual derivations]: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world [like breathing His life into PFAL] to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world [like me, maybe?] to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised [like VPW, maybe?], hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
***
Raf, surely you can understand what I’m saying here because you go through the exact same set of ideas I just did every time you witness to an agnostic, or atheist, or Christ rejecter. They ask you for your intellectual derivation to justify your belief that Jesus Christ was literally raised from the dead and you boldly tell them that they must set aside their intellect and first believe to then see. You tell them that belief that the original manuscripts of the Bible were perfect and flawless is the STARTING point for your intellectual exercises, and is in the category of a postulate, and not an intellectually derived theorem.
Your fundamental beliefs are not intellectually derived from other fundamental beliefs, by definition. The same way you brush off criticism that your life is intellectually dishonest because you believe in God’s Word given in ancient times in dead languages, I too brush off your criticism of me that my life is intellectually dishonest because I believe in God’s Word given in modern times in plain English.
***
From “The Bible tells Me So” on pages 23 and 24 we see:
II Corinthians 9:8: And God is able, to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things may abound to every good work.
Have we been limiting God in our lives? We must be if we do not have all sufficiency in everything. Sufficiency is the will of God for His children in order that His children may abound unto every good work. Our having sufficiency is God’s will for us; yet how many of us have limited God by not allowing Him to fulfill this promise in our lives? How slow we have been to realize that God is our ability, that He is the life of our lives, the strength of our strength, that He is our sufficiency.
We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, “That just cannot be,” and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, “Sufficiency in everything.” We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual, where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true. As there are four kingdoms in this world, and one supersedes the other: the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God; so, there is a natural world and a supernatural or spiritual world. The natural world and everything in it comes to the mind through or by way of the natural senses. The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man.
We cannot know anything about the spiritual world by way of the senses. That is why Paul said by divine inspiration in I Corinthians 2:14, “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him ... because they [spiritual matters] are spiritually discerned.”
Spiritual things from the spiritual world may be known in this world only by the spirit which dwells in us. Then, and only then, can the Spirit relate impressions and truths to us about the spiritual world and make them logical. Then, and only then, do we have the God-given ability within us, making known to us things about the spiritual world.
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Mike
THERE!
Ok, now.
I'm finally ready to look at that weeks-old backlog from this thread.
Assuming I find some time in today's busy schedule, and assuming no others will post noteworthy items in the meantime, I should finally get underway at hacking away at that old backlog.... assuming those assumptions are true... well... MAYBE I'll get to the backlog SOMEDAY... [note to self: buy lottery ticket]
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T-Bone
Hey, I think I can do that too!!!!!!
Galatians 1:8But even if we, or an angel from heaven [or New Knoxville], should preach to you a gospel contrary [such as PFAL] to what we preach to you he [such as VPW] is to be accursed. NASB T-Bone Amplified Version
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