Okay, you all wanna just knock it off with the jokes about my personal ghost-writer editor - I'm starting to feel sub-conscious...I'm at work right now and shouldn't hafta feel like I gotta speak gooder english or something. I think some of you are envious of my crap craft - I guess some people have a way with words - and some people - - - er- - ahhh --- mmmm -not have a way.
I never knew Chris Geer personally during my years in The Way. I knew who he was and that he drove the coach, heard him teach once. I did meet him briefly once at a Heartbeat Weekend in the 70's when he and Dr. Wierwille came out in the early hours of the morning with coffee for all those working around the coach through the cold night. When he read the POP at Corps Week I felt at the time that he came off pretty hard on everyone, but in retrospect I have come to see that much of what he said was true despite the fact that it was hard to hear at the time. I've listened to all 362 Gartmore Teachings at least once. (I am still awake and have no trouble sleeping when I do get to bed.) I have read all the Future Considerations Journals as well as the Glimpses of Truth that he now publishes. I have taken a few classes including the Walking in God's Power Class, it was not life changing but in fairness it may have been had I not heard most of it a zillion times.
Many don't like his teaching style it is dry and to the point more like a lecture building to a point. I personally don’t mind it. I think it is purposefully done to accent the message not the teacher. In the Way many times it was the other way around you left thinking boy that John Lynn sure is funny or that person sure yells a lot, it seems the message sometimes got lost at times. I have to say I have learned or clarified some things because of the teachings at Gartmore House. The teachings on Bible kinds of Faith alone were most helpful to my understanding this field of study. I don't attend the fellowship things around here much because I felt that they were not very welcoming, an issue I have in general with that group. That aside I can attest that I have benefited from his ministry over these last years. I looked into running the Word Promotions classes at one point but found that the agreement was not something I wanted to sign on for. Is it perfect? Of Course Not. But I can attest to the good and benefit that I experienced.
I have a good friend whom I have known forever who attends E*rl B*rton's fellowship regularly. And Earl runs the WGIP class. He goes every so often (every, or every other Sunday) and enjoys it. He says there is no pressure for him to come there, no pressure to be a part of any outreach stuff, and there has never been any pressure for him to "take the Class" (WGIP). Earl is very kind as he has always been, and never tries to get my bud (my bud since 7th grade) to do anything, but is just happy to see him there. Kind of like "Church": A "nice to see ya, hope all is well" kind of a thing. And, he said he doesn't hear much if anything about CG when he goes to meetins. My bud lives "in sin" with a Jewish gal who isn't interested in Christianity, but my pal never hears any negs about his living situation. In fact, they are happy that my unmarried bud finally has a companion with whom to share his life.
And so, is this good? Is this bad? Is it part of a grand deception? I dunno, you judge. It is just some facts about someone who is involved in a CG affiliated fellowship at the present time...
I would tend to agree with most of Wordwolf's observations.
I've met Chris a number of times. Was a "corps buddy" (corps person assigned to escort/assist a visitor) for him when he visited the IN campus. Have also met Barbara and their daughters. Found them to be very polite, caring, friendly and considerate - - unlike other "leader" types I was a corps buddy for while in residence. Barbara, BTW, was the ONLY "leader" who actually sent me a thank you note (besides Sarah Wierwille) for my assistance and included $20 as a thank you for helping her with the girls.
After leaving twi in the mass exodus in 1989, most of the state I lived in (AZ) continued to play fellowship a la a "way tree" structure and most rolled right over into Chris' leadership as a replacement for VPs (by their choice, not necessarily by his request). I've also taken WIGP classes (foundational, intermediate and Eastern Customs/Orientalisms) and subscribed for a while to his journals and Gartmore tapes. I found the differences and clarifications that distinguished themselves from PFAL rhetoric to be a helpful start to being able to think for myself again and question those things I had long held onto in twi. I personally no longer wish to be associated with groups that are so into bible nitpicking.
Two things bother me about having any association with CG. I have tried to communicate with him in the past and received no response. (Yeah, I get he's busy and does his thing, carrying for a wife with an illness a big part of what he does.) There are former twi leaders who do receive communication from him who are involved with putting on his classes. So, he has time to earn a living and perhaps, not much else, so perhaps only wishes to communicate with those who further his mission. He also very obviously believes he is carrying out vp's last will and testement against all obstacles from twi, former members and tripped out corps. That mentality is a little disturbing to me at this point in time in my life with all that I know about vp, lcm, other leaders and twi -- available now on the Internet.
Secondly, I do take issue with any former leader who has not taken the opportunity to come clean about twi's past (doctrinal error, sex scandels from vp to now, deaths/suicides, etc. that have been documented). I get that that might implicate them in some sort of lawsuits. I've only heard of a few (Ralph, JAL and Bo and a few others) who have tried to honestly discuss with former members what they knew went on and how extensively it went on. So, the fact that in my years in associating with 4 different CG-related groups in 4 different states run by former top twi leaders who are now top leaders of CG-related groups - - and HAVE NOT heard any of them recount and/or address the past twi issues, is enough for me not to want to be associated with them.
Some very articulate and informative posts here...
...Maybe a little too polite...but nevertheless honest and forthright.
Chris Geer?...just another one of the "Veepee clones" that survived twi with their "persona" intact. It seems that many of the "top leaders" from twi have followed in thier "father in the word's" footsteps...seems that it is preferrable to these gentlemen to be the top banana of their own little group, than to regroup together into one big splinter group. Even as Veepee was obsessed with being the one in charge...so are his clones...division was inevitable. When the guru died, it became like a bad soap opera...Geer played his part, and what a part it was. Glad to hear that so many had good and positive experiences with him. Sorry but I can't say the same...never had a positive experience with him...not once. I first met Geer back in 75 or 76 when he was in charge of Maine (I think it was Maine)...Our paths crossed many times and the guy always gave me the "willies". I never liked him.
If Martindale was a buffoon, then Geer was the rattlesnake...always in the background, his shifty, piercing eyes, always two steps behind Wierwille as he walked. Always thinking, always planning, always suspecting someone of something sinister...Geer, the dangerous one. With an almost "secret service" type of mentality, he would slip in and out of the shadows...doing the dirty work...knowing where the bodies were hidden and where the secret stash of weapons and ammo were...The John Lithgow of twi, the one who smiles when he kills...Yes, I remember Chris Geer...I remember him well.
...of something sinister...Geer, the dangerous one. With an almost "secret service" type of mentality, he would slip in and out of the shadows...doing the dirty work...knowing where the bodies were hidden and where the secret stash of weapons and ammo were...The John Lithgow of twi, the one who smiles when he kills...Yes, I remember Chris Geer...I remember him well.
I remember Chris at safe driver class, practicing bat turns with the rented cars. (or Joe Mannix turns ... like you shift into reverse or something) Anyway, about those bodies ... I guess that is figurative, but I've heard other subtle statements of people killing for VP. I had never heard of anything like that, only of a bunch of guys acting the part of secret service. They probably had weapons stashed, and I remember VP saying how good Chris was with a knife ... it all seemed goofy to me. Was anyone ever reportedly killed?
Oh, and VP told a story of Geer getting rev that a car was going to lose a tire or something, so he swerved the bus across 3 lanes to block traffic, then the tire came off ... Chris saved the day ... (or was that the story Chris told after he had fallen asleep at the wheel?) LOL
I wrote in Post #27: "...the theory is that God is a very good and powerful planer, but has no detailed knowledge of what anyone else is going to do before they do it. The theory has it that God is very good at predicting and then planning for all possible outcomes, and to forge them into His overall general plan. This is a good description of the devil, but not of the Creator. God created time itself and is not held captive to it."
It looks like Geer switched to the false god in the process. Talk about a MILLSTONE!
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Tom Strange
oh... and I apologize to Jonny L... I couldn't resist... it was automatic typing!
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tonto
Well geez...I guess I have to put aside my work and give a disclaimer:
There is no way that I proof all of T-Bone's posts. Have you noticed how long they are???
I sometimes say "uh-huh" and switch from "What not to Wear" to HGTV and roll my eyes.
(Love ya, TB)
On the Geer topic...I'm having to edit myself right now because all I can come up with are nasty things to say about him.
Uh-oh...now I'm stuck on this color...oh well, Happy Red Ink Day, everybody!
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Tom Strange
Tonto: I'm guessing that mean I can't bring my posts over for you to pre-read...
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tonto
Tom, does the Flying Saucer have internet connectability? :)
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T-Bone
Okay, you all wanna just knock it off with the jokes about my personal ghost-writer editor - I'm starting to feel sub-conscious...I'm at work right now and shouldn't hafta feel like I gotta speak gooder english or something. I think some of you are envious of my crap craft - I guess some people have a way with words - and some people - - - er- - ahhh --- mmmm -not have a way.
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WhiteDove
I never knew Chris Geer personally during my years in The Way. I knew who he was and that he drove the coach, heard him teach once. I did meet him briefly once at a Heartbeat Weekend in the 70's when he and Dr. Wierwille came out in the early hours of the morning with coffee for all those working around the coach through the cold night. When he read the POP at Corps Week I felt at the time that he came off pretty hard on everyone, but in retrospect I have come to see that much of what he said was true despite the fact that it was hard to hear at the time. I've listened to all 362 Gartmore Teachings at least once. (I am still awake and have no trouble sleeping when I do get to bed.) I have read all the Future Considerations Journals as well as the Glimpses of Truth that he now publishes. I have taken a few classes including the Walking in God's Power Class, it was not life changing but in fairness it may have been had I not heard most of it a zillion times.
Many don't like his teaching style it is dry and to the point more like a lecture building to a point. I personally don’t mind it. I think it is purposefully done to accent the message not the teacher. In the Way many times it was the other way around you left thinking boy that John Lynn sure is funny or that person sure yells a lot, it seems the message sometimes got lost at times. I have to say I have learned or clarified some things because of the teachings at Gartmore House. The teachings on Bible kinds of Faith alone were most helpful to my understanding this field of study. I don't attend the fellowship things around here much because I felt that they were not very welcoming, an issue I have in general with that group. That aside I can attest that I have benefited from his ministry over these last years. I looked into running the Word Promotions classes at one point but found that the agreement was not something I wanted to sign on for. Is it perfect? Of Course Not. But I can attest to the good and benefit that I experienced.
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J0nny Ling0
And if I may.....
I have a good friend whom I have known forever who attends E*rl B*rton's fellowship regularly. And Earl runs the WGIP class. He goes every so often (every, or every other Sunday) and enjoys it. He says there is no pressure for him to come there, no pressure to be a part of any outreach stuff, and there has never been any pressure for him to "take the Class" (WGIP). Earl is very kind as he has always been, and never tries to get my bud (my bud since 7th grade) to do anything, but is just happy to see him there. Kind of like "Church": A "nice to see ya, hope all is well" kind of a thing. And, he said he doesn't hear much if anything about CG when he goes to meetins. My bud lives "in sin" with a Jewish gal who isn't interested in Christianity, but my pal never hears any negs about his living situation. In fact, they are happy that my unmarried bud finally has a companion with whom to share his life.
And so, is this good? Is this bad? Is it part of a grand deception? I dunno, you judge. It is just some facts about someone who is involved in a CG affiliated fellowship at the present time...
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WordWolf
What can I say about him...
We never hung out socially. I have my own observations and those of others.
Here's what I have.
I have never seen him use the podium to bullyrag. In the cases of vpw
and lcm, they both (lcm mostly) had times when they yelled when they
had the microphone. I've never seen cg yell at the podium, nor claim
hatred for others or delight in harm coming to them. Nor have I seen
him make political commentary.
cg believed/believes that it is possible to improve on pfal, which means
he did not believe that pfal was by "divine dictation" or anything like that.
cg believes/believed that pfal in and of itself as the class of that name
is/was not holy and required, since he made his own class with a different
name.
Since cg's class is largely cloned FROM pfal and is simply an
ITERATION of it (pfal with tinkering), cg obviously thinks that a class LIKE
pfal is important and useful, and should be disseminated.
Based on his marketing of it (he gets paid before the classes even roll),
it's obvious he knows it can be a moneymaker, and teaching the information
to others is neither his SOLE nor his PRIMARY concern. It's more along the
lines of "I'm performing a valuable service here. You are free to agree or
disagree. If you agree it is valuable, then I expect to receive compensation
accordingly."
cg's personality largely seems organized around expectations of conspiracy
(he was one of THE prime conspiracy pushers AND believers at twi),
and obsession with minutiae
(he was seen spending many times the practical time and energy doing
something HIS way when it would have been more practical to do
it ANOTHER way which was just as effective.)
That applied to both physical details (working with equipment) and
organization-level details (he claimed he was the only man in all of
Europe in twi who was of any use in setting up their UK hq,
even for cooking, wiring, etc),
and class details (he "improved" some things beyond accuracy in his
nonstop "tweaking".)
Do I think he can be an effective teacher?
Sometimes I think he can be EXCELLENT.
Other times, he's come out with full-scale boondoggles.
The fact that he previously had no problem considering ANYTHING
justifiable if it was for vpw (situational ethics to the extreme),
including drugging women for vpw's sexual enjoyment,
and he has never come out with a public statement that such
things are VILE and ABHORRENT
(reversing his position if not admitting any involvement)
is possibly an indication of LACK OF REMORSE,
at least of sufficient to do something about it.
Now that HE is in the big seat-
where vpw was justified all those things-
is he above claiming them for himself?
I can't say.
I AM aware we have the internet now, and if he tried a fraction
of what vpw did back when, he'd be nailed to the wall like vpw
would have been if we'd had the internet when he was alive.
Perhaps that has nothing to do with it.
That's what I know, what I consider reasonable to suppose,
and the things I wonder about.
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jardinero
I would tend to agree with most of Wordwolf's observations.
I've met Chris a number of times. Was a "corps buddy" (corps person assigned to escort/assist a visitor) for him when he visited the IN campus. Have also met Barbara and their daughters. Found them to be very polite, caring, friendly and considerate - - unlike other "leader" types I was a corps buddy for while in residence. Barbara, BTW, was the ONLY "leader" who actually sent me a thank you note (besides Sarah Wierwille) for my assistance and included $20 as a thank you for helping her with the girls.
After leaving twi in the mass exodus in 1989, most of the state I lived in (AZ) continued to play fellowship a la a "way tree" structure and most rolled right over into Chris' leadership as a replacement for VPs (by their choice, not necessarily by his request). I've also taken WIGP classes (foundational, intermediate and Eastern Customs/Orientalisms) and subscribed for a while to his journals and Gartmore tapes. I found the differences and clarifications that distinguished themselves from PFAL rhetoric to be a helpful start to being able to think for myself again and question those things I had long held onto in twi. I personally no longer wish to be associated with groups that are so into bible nitpicking.
Two things bother me about having any association with CG. I have tried to communicate with him in the past and received no response. (Yeah, I get he's busy and does his thing, carrying for a wife with an illness a big part of what he does.) There are former twi leaders who do receive communication from him who are involved with putting on his classes. So, he has time to earn a living and perhaps, not much else, so perhaps only wishes to communicate with those who further his mission. He also very obviously believes he is carrying out vp's last will and testement against all obstacles from twi, former members and tripped out corps. That mentality is a little disturbing to me at this point in time in my life with all that I know about vp, lcm, other leaders and twi -- available now on the Internet.
Secondly, I do take issue with any former leader who has not taken the opportunity to come clean about twi's past (doctrinal error, sex scandels from vp to now, deaths/suicides, etc. that have been documented). I get that that might implicate them in some sort of lawsuits. I've only heard of a few (Ralph, JAL and Bo and a few others) who have tried to honestly discuss with former members what they knew went on and how extensively it went on. So, the fact that in my years in associating with 4 different CG-related groups in 4 different states run by former top twi leaders who are now top leaders of CG-related groups - - and HAVE NOT heard any of them recount and/or address the past twi issues, is enough for me not to want to be associated with them.
So that's what I know.
J.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Some very articulate and informative posts here...
...Maybe a little too polite...but nevertheless honest and forthright.
Chris Geer?...just another one of the "Veepee clones" that survived twi with their "persona" intact. It seems that many of the "top leaders" from twi have followed in thier "father in the word's" footsteps...seems that it is preferrable to these gentlemen to be the top banana of their own little group, than to regroup together into one big splinter group. Even as Veepee was obsessed with being the one in charge...so are his clones...division was inevitable. When the guru died, it became like a bad soap opera...Geer played his part, and what a part it was. Glad to hear that so many had good and positive experiences with him. Sorry but I can't say the same...never had a positive experience with him...not once. I first met Geer back in 75 or 76 when he was in charge of Maine (I think it was Maine)...Our paths crossed many times and the guy always gave me the "willies". I never liked him.
If Martindale was a buffoon, then Geer was the rattlesnake...always in the background, his shifty, piercing eyes, always two steps behind Wierwille as he walked. Always thinking, always planning, always suspecting someone of something sinister...Geer, the dangerous one. With an almost "secret service" type of mentality, he would slip in and out of the shadows...doing the dirty work...knowing where the bodies were hidden and where the secret stash of weapons and ammo were...The John Lithgow of twi, the one who smiles when he kills...Yes, I remember Chris Geer...I remember him well.
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excathedra
wow grouch we knew the same guy
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rhino
Oh, and VP told a story of Geer getting rev that a car was going to lose a tire or something, so he swerved the bus across 3 lanes to block traffic, then the tire came off ... Chris saved the day ... (or was that the story Chris told after he had fallen asleep at the wheel?) LOL
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Eagle
Limited foreknowledge of God? God takes several posible outcomes and plans the future of each outcome? That is Geer's theory?
???????
Sells God short a bit I think...
Eagle
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Mike
Eagle,
It's even worse than that!
I wrote in Post #27: "...the theory is that God is a very good and powerful planer, but has no detailed knowledge of what anyone else is going to do before they do it. The theory has it that God is very good at predicting and then planning for all possible outcomes, and to forge them into His overall general plan. This is a good description of the devil, but not of the Creator. God created time itself and is not held captive to it."
It looks like Geer switched to the false god in the process. Talk about a MILLSTONE!
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WordWolf
I wouldn't go that far.
Just because there was a one-attribute similarity did not 180-degree
all his comments from God Almighty to the devil.
As I've noted before, cg attempted to resolve the age-old debate
and a question many others have failed to answer before him:
how do you incorporate a God who is All-Knowing and a God who
is Love with a God who permits evil to exist at all?
cg's answer was to retain the Goodness of God as his requirement
by definition, and sacrificed All-Knowing for it.
If such a sacrifice was NEEDED, this would be a fair trade.
As someone said once, I'd rather be the One-Who-Cares than
the One-Who-Knows.
If either of you want to get into the nuts and bolts of this subject,
feel free to open it in Doctrinal, and I'll join you for the fun.
And yes, I believe it sells God quite short, as well...
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