If you do a standard nuts and bolts word study on “foreknowledge” in your Youngs you'll see that there is hardly any explanation of it except for one tiny OT verse where it explains that God knows His own acts before he does them. Extrapolating out, the theory is that God is a very good and powerful planer, but has no detailed knowledge of what anyone else is going to do before they do it. The theory has it that God is very good at predicting and then planning for all possible outcomes, and to forge them into His overall general plan. This is a good description of the devil, but not of the Creator. God created time itself and is not held captive to it.
The error is that there are plenty of other ways to describe foreknowledge than using a simple word or phrase. Many passages in the Bible embody the idea that we reduce to the one word “foreknowledge.” The research has to be expanded from a word study to a topic study, and the latter is much harder and much more time consuming.
It’s mind boggling to think that brains like Geer and the CES group have fallen for this junk.
A very similar thing happens when you do word study on “free will.” If you stick to that phrase you’ll come out thinking that there is Biblically no such thing as we commonly describe it today.
I don't see anywhere where JL suggested that what people posted here was "not of interest" or that there was anything that he didn't want people to see. He was simply giving additional sources for information.
And Belle: She can call me "insulting", and that is not an attack. But I say that she is "rude", and that is an attack. WTF? But Belle, thanks for your concern, for you are a sweet lady, and I have never thought you to be rude...
Hmm. Let's see. "Rude, Insulting, Rude, Insulting". What's the difference between those two adjectives? I do not think there is much difference. I confess, I was retaliating. But I did not fire the first round...
And so really. I personally have shunned the ministry of CG. I have dear friends who are still involved with CG, but I have declined the offer, because as Mike said, many of their leaders seem to be "tough and mean", and I don't like mean people. I have one really good friend who runs his classes, and he is not mean. And E*rl Burt*n is not mean. He is kind, a teddy bear. But others whom I have been around are kind of "callous".
But I still maintain that Twinot has the right to consider all sources, and not just info at the GSCafe alone.
And hey Twinot, "Why Not Minot? Hah ha! You could move there, and say; "Hi, my name is Twinot, and now I live in Minot!" Haha! Get it? Twinot from Minot?"
But I still maintain that Twinot has the right to consider all sources, and not just info at the GSCafe alone.
And I agree 100%!!!! Always have. :)
Sorry, I didn't read Rascal's post that way, but, I"ve met her in person on quite a few occasions and I know her heart and how she communicates in person, so I didn't read her post that way. BUT, I can see how you saw it differently, not knowing her personally and her heart, how tender it is and how passionate she is about protecting people. That's one of the limitations we have here...would that it was really some kind of cafe where we could all sit around, pat each other on the back and share toilet paper under the bathroom stalls.....people could find the gum I keep putting under the counters....
That's why I stepped in. I suspect you two communicate very much the same way in person and would be the "mutual admiration society" if you could read her words like I do....and I use that personality to read yours, which helps me see through your "toughness" sometimes.
You are a sweet woman Belle, and no doubt as beautiful as your avatar*. But I have one little problem here. You said:
share toilet paper under the bathroom stalls
?!?!?!
Oh that sounds so girly! And ya know, I have been around the block some, but I have never been in a bathroom stall and out of TP and had to ask the occupant in the next stall to "pass the TP". Has that actually happened to you before?
Well now, it seems as if Rascal and I do not see eye to eye very often except on fishin. But, c'est la vie. I guess that's the way it is I 'spose. Part of it too is the fact that we all post "anonymously", and I think that people are more apt to be more "in your face" than when people are not actually "face to face". And here we are not face to face, but rather, "we" are just "a bunch of words" typed out, and it is easier to get fired up over things. Anyway, Rascal, sorry to have fired you up like that. But, my opinion is my opinion I spose...
*Belle. Is your avatar a photo of the gal who played Scarlet O'Hara? Or, is that you?
The error is that there are plenty of other ways to describe foreknowledge than using a simple word or phrase. Many passages in the Bible embody the idea that we reduce to the one word “foreknowledge.” The research has to be expanded from a word study to a topic study, and the latter is much harder and much more time consuming.
It’s mind boggling to think that brains like Geer and the CES group have fallen for this junk.
What boggles MY MIND -- is that if docvic put this in pfal --
Oh now. In actuality, I really do not even like Jack Daniels. It has a weird sweet taste which I do not like at all. For me, when going cheap, I buy Jim Beam, a good middle of the road bourbon. But when I want to spend a little bit more, I buy Knob Creek, or Maker's Mark. Knob Creek goes for $32.00 a fifth up here, and Maker's goes for about the same, roughly. What do you all pay down there for the same?
And, I do not put "coke" in my bourbon, but rather, at the most, ice cubes. Maker's Mark and coke? Beam and Coke? Yuck! Why ruin the whiskey?
Hey Whynot! Do they drink Makers in Minot? No? Whynot?! Get it? Oh well, sorry bout that...
But when I want to spend a little bit more, I buy Knob Creek, or Maker's Mark. Knob Creek goes for $32.00 a fifth up here, and Maker's goes for about the same, roughly. What do you all pay down there for the same?
The bottle in the pic (close to a quart), costs 16 bucks here!!
And it goes best with NO additives!! Ice cubes included. ;)
The limited foreknowledge theory is one of the stupidest, blindest pieces of intellectual garbage I've ever seen.
I'd put it second.
Oh, wait, "intellectual." You're right. :)
I had no bad experiences during the time I would count myself among Geer's "followers," but the limited foreknowledge thing was my breaking point. Not because it's wrong and my view is right (although that is my belief) but because it was so easily refutable.
The CES/STFI presentation is tougher to argue with because they have thought through the very verses WordWolf and I raised in objection to Geer's presentation. I disagree with STFI's conclusion, but their presentation is at least 50x better than Geer's.
Still, I always thought of Geer as a good presenter and a decent teacher, if not a terribly exciting one.
I didn't find out the bad stuff until Waydale/Greasespot.
I go to a CG fellowship. Never met Geer. The leaders of this fellowship are not mean and the "limited foreknowledge" thing has not been presented openly. These people do not put pressure on you the way TWI did/does.
my only personal experience with chris geer was a brief conversation through the mail, back in early 1987. i was earnestly, honestly, looking for answers, wondering about things he'd said in the POP. in very short order, he proved himself to be a complete d!ck. i don't need to know anything about what he teaches, how he teaches, blah, blah...his words to me made it clear that's he's an a**hole. grade A, 100%.
I DON`T like to start a fight or argue ..... I DO however tend to react rather strongly to slaps in the face.....which is how I viewed your comment concerning the first hand information on Chris Geer, not being important ..... what twinot would want to hear.........in my mind you are throwing down the gauntlet ie starting a fight by discrediting all of the valuable insight and accounts of the posters whom had shared first hand info on his known viscious cruelty in these threads.
No, instead you want to discount the info here.... and send someone to a person that hawks Chris Geers class....like ANYBODY is going to get accurate information from THAT source.
Hey no doubt your buddy is a nice guy....we ALL were at one time and just look at the evil that managed to lurk behind our shiney fresh faced Christian facade....death and destruction misery bondage awaited many....once they were lured in by our wholesom appearance....and THIS man was directly responsible for some of the most heinous acts committed against our dear bretheren.......
People need to know what is behind the scenes. ...View that as you may, and mischaracterise me if you must ...but I will not let comments discrediting our posters and their accounts slide by unchallenged.
Lol...Belle, thanks for trying to help....You dear lady, I wish I could see me as you do.....Sorry to be so damned pig headed stubborn.....it comes from 25 years of sit down shut up you don`t know sheet.
Maybe I AM over reacting and you guys are the unfortunate recipients of all of those years of pent up opinions finally exploding out....
Someday maybe I will run out of steam and someday maybe I won`t be so hyper sensative to percieved slights and insults ...but untill then I guess you will have to grit your teeth and endure my input for a bit longer ...
Thanks for seeing the best in people Belle, I will try as well.
Oh that sounds so girly! And ya know, I have been around the block some, but I have never been in a bathroom stall and out of TP and had to ask the occupant in the next stall to "pass the TP". Has that actually happened to you before?
*Belle. Is your avatar a photo of the gal who played Scarlet O'Hara? Or, is that you?
Jonny, yes, I have been both the "passer" and the "passee" on many occasions. Consider yourself lucky that you've never had to ask someone to "spare a square". I suspect a man needing TP would be in more dire straits than most situations where a woman would need it.
My avatar is Ms. Vivien Leigh, herself. I love the character Scarlett O'Hara and hope to find my Rhett Butler some day. 'Tis not me, I'm afraid.
Rascal, I really don't see where Jonny said that any of the information here was unimportant or that it should be ignored. He was telling TWINot that additional information about the Geer's "ministry" and Geer himself could be found by looking up those other folks as well. :( I've read and re-read his post and the ones after that and I just still don't see it. That's why I think you must have mis-read it. :) He didn't out and out post, "but look here, too" but he was by no means discrediting the stuff here - others had already pointed TWINot to that information. It's that protective "Mama" instinct in you and I know that. That's what makes you such a great asset to our cafe.
If you want to really learn about all of that, this is not the place to learn it.
Sorry that was just how I read it...and sorry for apparently over reacting.....
I am just plain sorry when a reputable nice guy like Jonny L would send a person in the direction of a monster like Geer....without them first learning what peoples experiences with geer were who posted here.
I never told the guy/gal to leave this place, to not look around this place. The guy/gal is already at this place.. Twinot is here already to freely take a gander at all and any post available. Sigh...
Hope the ice breaks up for ya soon so you can catch some bass
If you want to really learn about all of that, this is not the place to learn it.
Well... it's not a completely innocent statement and does carry some inference even if Jonny doesn't mean it to... it could be taken if you want to hear something GOOD about Geer you won't find it here so look over there OR it could be taken if you really want to learn about Geer and his thing, go somewhere else...
In hindsight, it probably would've been better not to use the word "really"... but heck, we all could word things a little better every now and then but we don't have Tonto around to proof them for us and we just blurt out... (note to self: do not get on Yoda's bad side)
Regardless, I think 'questor' is getting the idea that there's not too many here, if any, that have anything "good" about Geer...
On a personal basis, CG and I got along well. For some reason he liked me out at Gunnison, when he was our Corps Coordinator. We had some really fine times with him there. At night, he would read to us from this guy's journal for over an hour at a time. The journal was from an eighteen year old kid who worked in the Silver Queen Mine not far from Camp Gunnison back in the 1800's. Those were neat times for us. No movies, and such, but rather, "good old fashioned reading" at night as a group. And, he liked me and always asked me to do projects with him working on things and stuff...
But after the POP situation, I found him to be rather "unfriendly" as a whole, to the poeple who had followed after his reproof. Seemed to be "too severe" about everything. And me, well, I love Love, not severity...
gee... such a nice guy! ... he'd already been procuring and drugging for veepee for years (and would do so in the future)... but he was a hell of a reader!
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Mike
Jonny,
It's been on many threads before.
If you do a standard nuts and bolts word study on “foreknowledge” in your Youngs you'll see that there is hardly any explanation of it except for one tiny OT verse where it explains that God knows His own acts before he does them. Extrapolating out, the theory is that God is a very good and powerful planer, but has no detailed knowledge of what anyone else is going to do before they do it. The theory has it that God is very good at predicting and then planning for all possible outcomes, and to forge them into His overall general plan. This is a good description of the devil, but not of the Creator. God created time itself and is not held captive to it.
The error is that there are plenty of other ways to describe foreknowledge than using a simple word or phrase. Many passages in the Bible embody the idea that we reduce to the one word “foreknowledge.” The research has to be expanded from a word study to a topic study, and the latter is much harder and much more time consuming.
It’s mind boggling to think that brains like Geer and the CES group have fallen for this junk.
A very similar thing happens when you do word study on “free will.” If you stick to that phrase you’ll come out thinking that there is Biblically no such thing as we commonly describe it today.
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Oakspear
I don't see anywhere where JL suggested that what people posted here was "not of interest" or that there was anything that he didn't want people to see. He was simply giving additional sources for information.
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J0nny Ling0
Thank you Oakspear.
And Belle: She can call me "insulting", and that is not an attack. But I say that she is "rude", and that is an attack. WTF? But Belle, thanks for your concern, for you are a sweet lady, and I have never thought you to be rude...
Hmm. Let's see. "Rude, Insulting, Rude, Insulting". What's the difference between those two adjectives? I do not think there is much difference. I confess, I was retaliating. But I did not fire the first round...
And so really. I personally have shunned the ministry of CG. I have dear friends who are still involved with CG, but I have declined the offer, because as Mike said, many of their leaders seem to be "tough and mean", and I don't like mean people. I have one really good friend who runs his classes, and he is not mean. And E*rl Burt*n is not mean. He is kind, a teddy bear. But others whom I have been around are kind of "callous".
But I still maintain that Twinot has the right to consider all sources, and not just info at the GSCafe alone.
And hey Twinot, "Why Not Minot? Hah ha! You could move there, and say; "Hi, my name is Twinot, and now I live in Minot!" Haha! Get it? Twinot from Minot?"
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Belle
And I agree 100%!!!! Always have. :)
Sorry, I didn't read Rascal's post that way, but, I"ve met her in person on quite a few occasions and I know her heart and how she communicates in person, so I didn't read her post that way. BUT, I can see how you saw it differently, not knowing her personally and her heart, how tender it is and how passionate she is about protecting people. That's one of the limitations we have here...would that it was really some kind of cafe where we could all sit around, pat each other on the back and share toilet paper under the bathroom stalls.....people could find the gum I keep putting under the counters....
That's why I stepped in. I suspect you two communicate very much the same way in person and would be the "mutual admiration society" if you could read her words like I do....and I use that personality to read yours, which helps me see through your "toughness" sometimes.
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J0nny Ling0
You are a sweet woman Belle, and no doubt as beautiful as your avatar*. But I have one little problem here. You said:
?!?!?!Oh that sounds so girly! And ya know, I have been around the block some, but I have never been in a bathroom stall and out of TP and had to ask the occupant in the next stall to "pass the TP". Has that actually happened to you before?
Well now, it seems as if Rascal and I do not see eye to eye very often except on fishin. But, c'est la vie. I guess that's the way it is I 'spose. Part of it too is the fact that we all post "anonymously", and I think that people are more apt to be more "in your face" than when people are not actually "face to face". And here we are not face to face, but rather, "we" are just "a bunch of words" typed out, and it is easier to get fired up over things. Anyway, Rascal, sorry to have fired you up like that. But, my opinion is my opinion I spose...
*Belle. Is your avatar a photo of the gal who played Scarlet O'Hara? Or, is that you?
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dmiller
What boggles MY MIND -- is that if docvic put this in pfal --
you would believe it hook, line, and sinker.
And call it revelation, no less. :blink:
Back to the regularly scheduled thread.
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Tom Strange
Jonny... please pass dave the Jack...
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J0nny Ling0
Nooo Tom! There's only a little bit left!!
But okay....Never done any drankin wif ya anyhoo... 
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dmiller
*Jack* will be turned away!!
*Mark* can come here aneeetime!
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J0nny Ling0
Oh now. In actuality, I really do not even like Jack Daniels. It has a weird sweet taste which I do not like at all. For me, when going cheap, I buy Jim Beam, a good middle of the road bourbon. But when I want to spend a little bit more, I buy Knob Creek, or Maker's Mark. Knob Creek goes for $32.00 a fifth up here, and Maker's goes for about the same, roughly. What do you all pay down there for the same?
And, I do not put "coke" in my bourbon, but rather, at the most, ice cubes. Maker's Mark and coke? Beam and Coke? Yuck! Why ruin the whiskey?
Hey Whynot! Do they drink Makers in Minot? No? Whynot?! Get it? Oh well, sorry bout that...
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dmiller
The bottle in the pic (close to a quart), costs 16 bucks here!!
And it goes best with NO additives!! Ice cubes included. ;)
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Raf
I'd put it second.
Oh, wait, "intellectual." You're right. :)
I had no bad experiences during the time I would count myself among Geer's "followers," but the limited foreknowledge thing was my breaking point. Not because it's wrong and my view is right (although that is my belief) but because it was so easily refutable.
The CES/STFI presentation is tougher to argue with because they have thought through the very verses WordWolf and I raised in objection to Geer's presentation. I disagree with STFI's conclusion, but their presentation is at least 50x better than Geer's.
Still, I always thought of Geer as a good presenter and a decent teacher, if not a terribly exciting one.
I didn't find out the bad stuff until Waydale/Greasespot.
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johniam
I go to a CG fellowship. Never met Geer. The leaders of this fellowship are not mean and the "limited foreknowledge" thing has not been presented openly. These people do not put pressure on you the way TWI did/does.
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sprawled out
back to the topic.
my only personal experience with chris geer was a brief conversation through the mail, back in early 1987. i was earnestly, honestly, looking for answers, wondering about things he'd said in the POP. in very short order, he proved himself to be a complete d!ck. i don't need to know anything about what he teaches, how he teaches, blah, blah...his words to me made it clear that's he's an a**hole. grade A, 100%.
make that 110%.
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rascal
You know Jonny L....
I DON`T like to start a fight or argue ..... I DO however tend to react rather strongly to slaps in the face.....which is how I viewed your comment concerning the first hand information on Chris Geer, not being important ..... what twinot would want to hear.........in my mind you are throwing down the gauntlet ie starting a fight by discrediting all of the valuable insight and accounts of the posters whom had shared first hand info on his known viscious cruelty in these threads.
No, instead you want to discount the info here.... and send someone to a person that hawks Chris Geers class....like ANYBODY is going to get accurate information from THAT source.
Hey no doubt your buddy is a nice guy....we ALL were at one time and just look at the evil that managed to lurk behind our shiney fresh faced Christian facade....death and destruction misery bondage awaited many....once they were lured in by our wholesom appearance....and THIS man was directly responsible for some of the most heinous acts committed against our dear bretheren.......
People need to know what is behind the scenes. ...View that as you may, and mischaracterise me if you must ...but I will not let comments discrediting our posters and their accounts slide by unchallenged.
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rascal
Lol...Belle, thanks for trying to help....You dear lady, I wish I could see me as you do.....Sorry to be so damned pig headed stubborn.....it comes from 25 years of sit down shut up you don`t know sheet.
Maybe I AM over reacting and you guys are the unfortunate recipients of all of those years of pent up opinions finally exploding out....
Someday maybe I will run out of steam and someday maybe I won`t be so hyper sensative to percieved slights and insults ...but untill then I guess you will have to grit your teeth and endure my input for a bit longer ...
Thanks for seeing the best in people Belle, I will try as well.
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oldiesman
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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Belle
Jonny, yes, I have been both the "passer" and the "passee" on many occasions. Consider yourself lucky that you've never had to ask someone to "spare a square".
I suspect a man needing TP would be in more dire straits than most situations where a woman would need it. 
My avatar is Ms. Vivien Leigh, herself.
I love the character Scarlett O'Hara and hope to find my Rhett Butler some day. 'Tis not me, I'm afraid.
Rascal, I really don't see where Jonny said that any of the information here was unimportant or that it should be ignored. He was telling TWINot that additional information about the Geer's "ministry" and Geer himself could be found by looking up those other folks as well. :( I've read and re-read his post and the ones after that and I just still don't see it. That's why I think you must have mis-read it. :) He didn't out and out post, "but look here, too" but he was by no means discrediting the stuff here - others had already pointed TWINot to that information. It's that protective "Mama" instinct in you and I know that.
That's what makes you such a great asset to our cafe. 
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rascal
Sorry that was just how I read it...and sorry for apparently over reacting.....
I am just plain sorry when a reputable nice guy like Jonny L would send a person in the direction of a monster like Geer....without them first learning what peoples experiences with geer were who posted here.
I am sorry that I am just such an effin bitch.
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J0nny Ling0
I never told the guy/gal to leave this place, to not look around this place. The guy/gal is already at this place.. Twinot is here already to freely take a gander at all and any post available. Sigh...
Hope the ice breaks up for ya soon so you can catch some bass
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Tom Strange
I'm in Belle's camp on this...
Well... it's not a completely innocent statement and does carry some inference even if Jonny doesn't mean it to... it could be taken if you want to hear something GOOD about Geer you won't find it here so look over there OR it could be taken if you really want to learn about Geer and his thing, go somewhere else...
In hindsight, it probably would've been better not to use the word "really"... but heck, we all could word things a little better every now and then but we don't have Tonto around to proof them for us and we just blurt out... (note to self: do not get on Yoda's bad side)
Regardless, I think 'questor' is getting the idea that there's not too many here, if any, that have anything "good" about Geer...
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J0nny Ling0
On a personal basis, CG and I got along well. For some reason he liked me out at Gunnison, when he was our Corps Coordinator. We had some really fine times with him there. At night, he would read to us from this guy's journal for over an hour at a time. The journal was from an eighteen year old kid who worked in the Silver Queen Mine not far from Camp Gunnison back in the 1800's. Those were neat times for us. No movies, and such, but rather, "good old fashioned reading" at night as a group. And, he liked me and always asked me to do projects with him working on things and stuff...
But after the POP situation, I found him to be rather "unfriendly" as a whole, to the poeple who had followed after his reproof. Seemed to be "too severe" about everything. And me, well, I love Love, not severity...
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Tom Strange
gee... such a nice guy! ... he'd already been procuring and drugging for veepee for years (and would do so in the future)... but he was a hell of a reader!
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Out There
Good to say about Geer, Hmmm let me think..
He's a self centered ego driven person who looks out for no one but himself.
Yea, thats about the best I have to say about him.
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