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This thread is pure gold!! The stories are simultaneously fascinating and horrifying. A request is tantamount to a command? Like a request for a foot rub? Or a request for fellatio? A request to abort an embarrassing and incriminating pregnancy? Bullsh¡t. (One might expect a logical evolution of paradigms from military general to athletic coach, especially after "Athletes of the Spirit." After all the effort to manufacture error in translation and interpretation in order to make it fit a carnal narrative, why not commit to the metaphor? I mean, a lot of creative and imaginative work went into changing what the text says to support the cringeworthy "Athletes of the Spirit." The fact is, Paul alternated between athletic and military metaphors - he used BOTH, and it's not a contradiction.) **Sorry. Athletes of the Spirit was a chunk of vomit stuck in my throat for some time. Had to get I out.

We stand for those we respect, either voluntarily or compulsorily, according to social norms. We stand for the judge AND the jury in a courtroom. Soldiers stand at attention for their commanders. Does everyone stand for the President? (I'm thinking of the press corps - do journalists stand at a press conference when the President enters?) Here in the Deep South, some of us stand for women whenever they stand, and sit after they sit. I suspect standing for an authoritative figure goes back to emperors and kings, who were usually military leaders. Standing for self-proclaimed religious leaders has its tradition in the Catholic Church - not 1st century, not Paul (as much as he would have loved the attention). If one has to whine about others standing for him, one doesn't deserve the gesture of respect. Whining about such a thing tips one's hand to one's illegitimacy.

Rocky, to make yourself vulnerable like that says a lot about an inner strength you must now have…I’ve read that when a broken bone is set properly, it will tend to heal so thoroughly it will become stronger than it was before the fracture. You, like so many other Grease Spotters have a powerful secret weapon that the enemy (a harmful and controlling cult) usually doesn’t see coming and doesn’t know how to counter it. it’s a triple “threat” of honesty, humility, and love. When we love, it is a big risk. We open ourselves up to potential harm – the other person could take advantage of that…and in a worst-case scenario they could break our heart. I can relate to a lot of the things you said as I reflect on how I treated my family during my 12 years of TWI involvement. By nature, I am a workaholic anyway. when that’s combined with having any kind of leadership role in TWI (which was for most of that 12 years) I had very little energy and time leftover for my family. I subscribed to TWI’s familial-wrecking-machination Put God, The Word, The Ministry first and everything else will take care of itself. It’s taken me some 36 years to reprioritize stuff in my life that has to do with family, friends, and goals – I’m still working on it. But at least I’ve got a bead on what’s truly important.

This isn't her first post; she posted a year or two ago and shared her heart then.

As often as I laugh at the absurd piles of bullsh¡t revealed here, I find myself weeping with fists clenched in righteousness indignation and sorrow. With childish fantasies of revenge, I look around for victor and Loy to extract penance. But I can never find them, because they have been placed behind all of you at your feet -- this is where they have been commanded to go.

Well... funny you should say those things my dear friend T-Bone. This excerpt from Jessica Nordell's conclusion to her book, The End of Bias, in which she writes: I can say with deep humility that the failure of my marriage and difficulties in my relationship with my daughter and stepson (and probably many more relationships) stem from moral injury derived from moral transgressions that overwhelmed my sense of humanity. I have no need to confront any reader here about whether s/he can recognize anything in themselves that resembles this emotional reality... But ALL of it for me traces back to what I believe is and was evil about how Victor and Loy viewed themselves as superior to any and everyone else... and that I allowed to be imprinted on my soul. That's also why I have been on a quest for understanding and wisdom about these matters for more than 30 years now, since I first personally encountered emotional and relationship problems deriving from what was taught and modeled in twi. My first recollection of unearned feelings of superiority goes back to one ROA making plans with three other young guys to share a house in Phoenix right after my year as a WOW in Ohio. Wierwille so instilled in us a feeling of superiority because we were the "called out" of the "household of God." What horse$hit that attitude brought. I was twentysomething at the time and had SOOOO much to learn about the genuine love of God which embraces each individual as worthy. Anyway...

As if Victor didn't make it up?

"Father shows me a white heart if they have holy spirit and a black heart if they have the seed of the serpent." Hahahahahahahahaha! ( I swear, you can't make this stuff up.)

Respondind to both posts but not in turn. way international leadership still behaves the exact same way. They say it's out of respect for the word that an individual teaches and that's why they stand. Bottom line is way international leadership - particularly the way corps want to be served and they demand it. The higher up the foodchain you get the more protocol is demanded from followers. Now, with HQ they have streamlined some of the standing...at the noon meal for example --- staff don't have to stand up when eating everytime someone comes to the lectern. The head table...geez....what a fiasco. The headtable servers have their own little doctrines they use to do special favors for the directors. Of course they say it's to bless the directors for all they do for us...or some such drivel. I had to sit at the head table for an entire week everytime I emceed the noon meal when I was cabinet. It's one of the stuffiest, fake environments I have ever been a part of. And it was nothing to get a call from Rosalie reproving me for the slightest offence. Chockfull really hits the nail on the head calling them pharisees. They do prefer the cheif seats and special adoration. They are not servants but are there to be served. As late as 1999, my candidate year for the way corps, I was given military books to read. Books on Chesty Puller, et. al. They weren't required reading but suggested to me by local leadership so I could get a grasp on the pretend military lifestyle of active way corps....and a suggestion is paramount to a command. I was taught that very early on in my short way corps career. Bottom line (from my personal experience) is the way international has a caste system and the further up the ladder you are able to climb the more you can demand to be served and salaamed by followers. The way corps are some of the most egotistical people I have ever met. I was egotistical as all get out when I was way corps too. That's something that was taught by example in my training and a very undesireable character trait I have had to work to overcome.

vpw wouldn't know military procedure if it bit him in the ankle. vpw never went into the military. vpw never went into the Reserve. vpw never went into the National Guard. vpw never went into the ROTC. When WWII was in the distance, vpw entered divinity school, which just happened to move him out of the pool of possible draft candidates. Anyone who thinks that's a coincidence when he'd previously been dithering over entering business or music, well, what can I say? vpw never had any immediate family or immediate friends enter the military, or even anything else I mentioned above. All vpw knew about the military was what it said in the movies and on TV. If he'd really loved the Marines, he'd have JOINED the Marines. What he loved was the appearance, the "bark an order and they do it" thing. He had no idea what it was to BE a Marine. He never even participated in tabletop general exercises for fun. So, the only thing he liked about generals was the "I get to bark an order and they have to obey" thing from entertainment. Anything behind it didn't even exist for him.

ROA Honey Wagon crew= KP duty.

[While it is BS, it's not really ORIGINAL BS. In twi, the "Keys to Walking By the Spirit" included one that claimed that "Speaking in tongues daily is requisite to revelation." In other words, if you want revelation from God Almighty, you need to SIT first. The only explanation I ever heard of that was that, if you want God to speak to you, you should be speaking to Him. It's so obviously BS I wouldn't know where to start. People speak to God all the time, using a regular voice. People pray to God all the time, using a regular voice. People get revelation all the time, some of whom NEVER SIT. So, other than "that's what this group teaches," there's no reason to believe it. If you're going to follow lcm BLINDLY like he insisted on once, you'll swallow all of this nonsense without questioning it. There's always someone willing to go off a cliff with little justification.]

Since nobody said so outright, I'll say it so it's clear.... She's as welcome here as anyone else. Her posts are welcome, and if we can help her in some manner, we would like to.

Or he remains in denial. She said he attended counseling sessions only because they were mandated or obligatory but never embraced the exercise. Therapy can lead to real awakening and liberation, but it requires acceptance and a willingness to look honestly at oneself. Until then, he has no new light to shine. No light at all. None. It's his free will choice to remain in darkness.

I've met her in person. She's real and her posts are authentic.

That BS started with VP and I can't speak to how much of a demand he put on his followers simply because I wasn't involved in TWI until 96. However, the following example shows how insane all of it became over time: I had been running snow removal crews at HQ since 4:30am and it was a particularly bad storm so we were battered from the elements as well as the long hours. I took a break around 1:30-2pm in the afternoon...literally my first time stopping since 4:30am. I went into my office and was sitting there with a shell shocked feeling I was trying to shake, when Rosalie walked into my office unexpectedly. I was shocked she was standing there and I greeted her very respectfully but forgot to stand. Before she soke to me she motioned me out of my chair and onto my feet before she would even talk. I think that about says it all.

Yep. Central. Fundamental. Foundational. His deeply profound insecurity may not be mentioned enough, but this quality is clearly evident in every letter to his early congregational off-shoot, every Corpse letter, and even in quotations attributed to him in POP. Though much of POP is spurious, the quotes showing his whiny insecurities are too embarrassing to be made up by a sycophant like Greer, they are an unintentional indictment of his narcissism.

Insecurity... isn't that central to narcissism? Btw, standing for Wierwille and Martindale entering rooms highlights the bass ackward social nature of the cult. I wonder if Jesus expected people to stand when he entered. Hmmm... oh, that's right, he washed the feet of his disciples, didn't he? Did Victor ever do that? Not that I go along with the Catholic church, but Pope Francis washed/washes people's feet.

Good post, Nathan! And this one line of yours is a gem: If one has to whine about others standing for him, one doesn't deserve the gesture of respect. Whining about such a thing tips one's hand to one's illegitimacy. What immediately came to mind was wierwille always demanding everyone address him as “Doctor”.

Many of the more formal and higher church denominations begin a worship service with a procession into the church of clergy, acolytes, attendants and others involved in the service during the opening hymn. It is generally customary for the congregation to stand. That has been happening for over a thousand years The intent is not to honor the clergy but for the congregation to recognize and participate in the beginning of the worship service. I know hundreds of clergy from various denominations, this is the only instance that I can think of where someone is expected to stand “when clergy enters the room”.. I have no idea but it could partly be a bastardization and misinterpretation of that... but mostly i think it is due to overblown egos, and fragile sense of self importance

Teenage struggles? Any worse than the usual teenage angst? Don't all teenagers "struggle" as they develop into young adults with the ability to think and make decisions for themselves, rather than being told what to do by parents? FWIW, I found this article that gives a glimmer into his early years. It's his dad's obituary from 2014, so old news. Obituary | Rod Martindale | Roberts and Son Funeral Home, Inc. (robertsandsonfh.com)

What Rocky said. Also, try to keep lines of communication open between you and your mom. There may come a time when she tries to withdraw from you under pressure from leadership, who don't want their culties to associate with people who refuse to take "the class." If you are a Bible student of any sort yourself, when she raises it, gently ask her how such-and-such a proposition (that TWI teaches) lines up with more accepted Bible teaching, or passages of scripture. If you need help on any topics, you are more than welcome to ask here. Whatever it is, we as a group are likely to have dissected it and rebutted erroneous parts. Not everything TWI teaches is wrong (especially at the beginning), but everything has a slant to it, that quickly turns into a slippery slope.

There's only two possibilities of that happening: Slim and none. And Slim is out of town.

T-Bone, what a lot of pseudo-scientific gobbledegook. Some kids are just bloody naughty teenagers. Because they're just bloody naughty. Bored and won't find anything to do. (You can tell I'm heavy on the compassion this evening!) We here are all victims of TWI. And Craig is, too, grown man that he is. Some of us have had it hard with years of WC training and indoctrination. He's had all that, same as us, and in addition has been personally groomed by VPW himself. Whatever psychological problems some of us here have had, Craig has probably had in spades. He was groomed by VPW from quite an early age, early 20s or such like. And later, the other trustees, and CG in particular, beat up on him. Having said that, nobody here has 'fessed up to assaulting (raping) other people' spouses, and I don't know that any of us has delivered such excoriating face-meltings, physical and mental abuse, or widespread slander. But then, nobody else has been Prez either. I'm not excusing him, not in the slightest. He stuffed up my head and my life and I feel like I wasted a good 20 years post-TWI because of him. My life has never got back to what it might have been, and never will. I wonder if he has ever sought any help from professional therapists to deal with his mental health issues. He'd probably deny any MH issues, but it'd be astonishing if he didn't have some. I could almost feel sorry for him. But I absolutely don't want ever to see him or hear him: no, not never ever again. Well. Exception. A heartfelt apology. I might be willing to hear that.

That is concerning – perhaps a mental health professional is in order…I found a webpage that may give some direction: Problems in Adolescents By Sharon Levy , MD, MPH, Harvard Medical School Last full review/revision Sep 2020| Content last modified Sep 2020 Psychologic and social problems, particularly involving behavior and school issues, are more common during adolescence than at any other time during childhood. Adolescents are much more independent and mobile and are often out of the direct control of adults. When misbehavior becomes severe and frequent, adolescents should be evaluated for a psychosocial disorder by a mental health professional. In particular, depression, anxiety, and eating disorders are common during adolescence. Adolescents who have anxiety or mood disorders may have physical symptoms such as fatigue or chronic fatigue, dizziness, headache, and abdominal or chest pain. Depression is common among adolescents, and doctors actively screen for it during examinations. Suicide is rare, but thoughts about suicide (called suicidal ideation) are more common. Suicidal ideation requires an immediate mental health evaluation; parents should not be expected to determine how "serious" the problem is on their own. Anxiety often manifests during adolescence, as do mood disorders and disruptive behavioral disorders such as oppositional defiant disorder and conduct disorder. Thought disorders, in which a person has difficulty distinguishing between fantasy and reality (also called psychosis), most commonly begin during adolescence or early adulthood. The first episode of psychosis is called a psychotic break. Schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder are examples of thought disorders. Periods of psychosis may be related to drug use. In these cases, psychosis may resolve after a period of time. Psychotic episodes may occur with marijuana, particularly edible products. Some adolescents who have a psychotic episode caused by marijuana use go on to develop a chronic psychotic disorder. Eating disorders, especially in girls, are common and can be life threatening. Some adolescents go to extraordinary lengths to hide symptoms of an eating disorder, which may include substantial reductions in food intake, purging after eating, use of laxatives, or extensive, vigorous exercise. Doctors can often identify these problems. They can offer adolescents practical advice and, when appropriate, encourage adolescents to accept treatment provided by specialists. end of excerpts from: MSD Manual

Kewl mahn! Btw, I dig "The Obstacle is the way." I never gave any thought to Stoic philosophy until this summer... then I read a book that made a lot of sense... titled, The Obstacle is the way (by Ryan Holiday). Cool book.