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In my experience they promised relief for a condition that was NOT present, an imagined condition projected on the targets of their proselytizing. When I first encountered all of this madness, my life was full of joy, peace, wonder, prosperity, healings..."manifestations" that can't be counterfeited. But they persisted with the relentless, if subtle, claim that I was lacking something, that I was incomplete without taking "the class," incomplete without "having" their contrived truth, that I was without REAL "power" until I heard and revered what "the doctor" had to say, that so much was "available" for me, but I was leaving it on the table "untapped." Tell someone enough times they are missing something BIG, they will start to believe it, in spite of the evidence against the claim. This is called gaslighting. Gaslighting is the most wicked abuse.

Just to clear something up: I don't "agree with Mike," per se. I see where Wierwille is coming from and submit that he has a point. Whether that point outweighs the points you guys raise in opposition to it is really up to each individual believer (or unbeliever) to decide (though believers are the only ones who have an actual stake in the answer). I decline to accept Mike as a frame of reference for my viewpoint here because I come to my point of view independent of his arguments. That is: I see Wierwille's point because I believe there is evidence to support it. I accept that there is also evidence to contradict it, and I can live with those contradictions because I accept contradictions as an attribute of the scriptures. Mike sees Wierwille's point because Wierwille can say the moon is made of green cheese and, as long as it was written in a PFAL collateral, Mike would accept it and dodge, distract, deny, etc if anyone told him it was objectively bulls hit. Wierwille was a con man. He saw the absent Christ in the scriptures and exploited it for his own gain. He exploited LOTS of things he saw in the scriptures for his own gain. Why should the physical absence of Christ and the future hope of his presence be any different? I accept that Mike and I are in agreement that there is a Biblical justification for the use of the term "absent Christ," but to say I "agree with Mike" is a bit misleading without the context that I still think he and Wierwille are absolutely full of solid excrement. No offense, Mike.

I think people who have a relationship with Christ - the ones who know him and not just about him - would have no interest in staying long or at all if they were approached by someone in twi. Since they would already be experiencing Christ's love, they wouldn't be so susceptible to all the "love bombing." And if they were in the habit of checking with Christ before making decisions, I doubt very much that Christ would give them the go ahead to hang out with this group. So they were the safe ones. That leaves people who either don't know Christ at all or if they do, didn't have Christ dwelling in their hearts in which case I think it would be difficult for him to warn them away from twi. Instead, they could easily be attracted to what twi offered and once hooked, remain for a long time. I was one of those people. The off-putting part was that I did think God had led me to twi because I was messed up and was seeking His help. But then again, because of my Catholic upbringing, all I knew about God was how guilty I felt around Him all the time. That's where the love bombing and twi's definition of standing righteous before God sucked me in big time.

Ambulance chasers

Mike, did you read this post? This is a test. Please acknowledge, at least, that you saw this post.... rather than using evasion tactic. At least, then... I would hope that we are PROGRESSING in the form of a healthy discussion. GSC is a discussion forum... NOT a preaching pulpit.

I'll add these questions to the folder I started to track all unanswered questions.

Is it also any wonder way corps(e) escapees (the longer they complied w/Wierwille's cult isolation, the worse it was) had NO idea how to make a living without starting their own spin off? Of course, doing so only kicked the can down the road. Without repudiating the entire cult mindset, those leaders who started their own (i.e. Victor Barnard) made it worse for themselves, their own families, and those who fell in with them on the back side of the cult journey.

Charity, that’s cool insight, “I counsel you" being present indicative active ! It speaks of the immanence of Christ. The MacArthur Study Bible notes the relevance of Christ’s presence even for us today, on page 1963, The MacArthur Study Bible notes of Revelation 2 and Revelation 3 : Although these 7 churches were actual, historical churches in Asia Minor, they represent the types of churches that perennially exist throughout the church age. What Christ says to these churches is relevant in all times. End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ On page 208 of Revelation the Baker Exegetical Commentary by Grant R Osborne the author notes of the spiritual counsel in Rev. 3:18 “I counsel you”: the verb means to “give advice” and is used elsewhere only in John 18:14, where Caiaphas “advised” the Jews that “one man should die for the people.” It deliberately understates (using language language of advice for a command) the seriousness of the situation: “Let me give you some advice, You should…” The manager in Luke 16: 1-8 used his “worldly wealth” to prepare for the future and so was “more shrewd” than “the children of light” because he used his wealth resources for the future and not just the present. So too the Laodiceans should use their “wealth” to “buy” spiritual and not just material rewards. The key here is ἀγοράσαι παρ’ ἐμοῦ = to buy from me. [also see Revelation 3:18 Greek English Interlinear: I counsel thee to buy from me gold fired by fire ] The commercial nature of the verb is perfect for this city.; they had “bought” everything from earthly merchants and so had gone to the wrong “store”. The παρ’ ἐμοῦ is emphatic. Christ is the only proper source of goods that will last, so they have to switch their broker from the marketplace to him… …This builds on the banking and commerce of the city. They think their accumulated possessions have made them rich (3:17), but they are actually poverty-stricken because they have purchased the wrong things…The idea of “purified” also appears in I Pet. 1:7 (“gold, which perishes even though refined by fire”) in a context of suffering and mat recall Ps. 66:10 (“you refined us like silver”; cf. Zech. 13:9; Isa. 1:25)…If 3:19 is understood to mean God is going to send trials, it reinforces this connection between purified gold and personal suffering. End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ Circling back to Charity’s point – Christ’s message was / is significant and practical to the Laodiceans and the church today! The time to RSVP is NOW - to listen to His voice and open the door.

Several of those offshoot cult guys kicked the can down the road until they themselves kicked the can.

~~~~~ 12. Stop projecting that every counterpoint disagreement is a personal attack on you. 13. Learning how to add substance or counter facts and viewpoints is something learned in High School Debate Clubs.... not something a person should be struggling with in their 60's. 14. What is causing you to do "tons of homework" in a discussion forum? Could it possibly be that you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole? .

Fahrenheit 451?

The collaterals take the place of the absent Wierwille.

For me no for three reasons: 1. After taking the pfal class, I don't remember hearing the phrase, the Absent Christ, often enough for me to notice he was absent. 2. I was too busy noticing what twi was telling me I needed to believe and do. 3. I felt I was a good believer because I did most of the things I was told I needed to do. The only reason I didn't go into the Corps when I wanted to was because I was too nervous about asking people to sponsor me. So basically the only longing in my mind was to carry out #3. Now for people like Mike who opening talk about the Absent Christ, they don't seem to miss him because they have the word and the ministry of reconciliation to replace the absent Christ. (see #2).

What future are you talking about? Is this after Christ comes to gather the church together to meet him in the air? If so, why would Christ be disciplining them and giving them a chance to repent - wouldn't it be too late for them by this time? His invitation to sup with them and they with him is totally dependent on them hearing his voice and opening the door. Would that be something he would offer the church in Laodicea after the gathering together? I think his invitation is an incentive for them to repent before he comes to gather them. I didn't mention the context for Rev 3:20 before because I wanted to keep the post short. But here it is now. 14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 **I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. 21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ** "I counsel you" is in the present indicative active - The fact that it is the present tense means it is happening now. The indicative is a mood of assertion or presentation of certainty (a fact). The active voice occurs when the action is being performed by the subject (who is Christ). I don't see anything futuristic about these verses.

Thanks for the response, Charity. I get the idea, or at least I see supported, TWI promised relief from some other condition that was present. Do you think the "The Absent Christ" phrase conjures up some sort of longing in people's minds?

Nice flame bait, there, sir Troll-A-Lot. But the topic is the absent Christ? Go start a thread about the accuracy of the collaterals. Thats been going on here for years....heck just bump one up from the dead.

Blood sucking pond scum

Me too. Back in 1998, I too had 3-4 offshoots that were reaching out to me. Reluctantly, I decided to go to ONE offshoot meeting and THAT was enough for me. It turned my stomach to see that this offshoot was just like twi..... opening prayer, sing 2 songs, manifestations, another song, teaching, upcoming announcements, closing prayer. This "backside of the cult journey" just started to climb uphill to another cult-summit. No thanks. .

My Lord, I was so close to going that route back in 2008. Thank God I didn't because it wouldve been so easy and I had three offshoots wanting me to work for them...egads.

Sorry to be a pill in this discussion - just trying to make sense out of your response - you say there’s no need to rewrite stuff because it speaks for itself - then you added more stuff, what needs to be read by all. How is this a discussion - when folks have questions about the first batch of stuff? This feels more like being in a classroom with an incompetent teacher who gets impatient with students who have questions about the lesson. I don’t think it’s fair when someone mischaracterizes confusion as having a rotten heart seething with hatred who can’t or won’t read a post. It makes me wonder what is the point of a discussion if clarifying what one says is irrelevant. I wish you would understand how disappointing and frustrating it is to someone who does try to follow your train of thought and wants some clarification only to be condemned for paying attention and asking questions. I get the feeling you’re trying to hide something. For example - Take this long post of yours I quoted. Your point is not revealed until the very end - it was all just an infomercial for wierwille / PFAL / the 1942 promise. You should pay attention to the honest feedback from your audience if you’re truly interested in running an idea up the flagpole. You KNOW FOR A FACT folks generally balk at the premise of wierwille / PFAL / the 1942 promise being unassailable truth. I was not playing gotcha earlier when I pointed out the contradictory nature of your post . I was giving you honest feedback - and if you really wanted to know what I was interested in - you would have realized I PREFER the personal freedom represented in wierwille’s statement rather than being bullied with fear of the devil in your statement…if you wouldn’t let yourself get so worked up over innocent questions we might actually find some common ground.

What's so sad is that you can't see that the real Jesus wants to have this lovy-dovy, chatty relationship with you. It's true - it's even in the Bible! Remember that Starbucks scene with Jesus you brought up on this thread or a different one. I found this website titled Why “Christ Lives in Me” is Good News which actually has it. The article begins like this: “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me (Gal. 2:20). For Paul to say, “Christ lives in me” is a marvelous statement of what it means to be a Christian. The Son of God can move in as the honored guest in your soul. Think about how the Bible puts this: “I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me” (Rev. 3:20). If you have the idea that Christian faith is about believing in Christ from a distance, think again. Christ says, “I am knocking on the door of your heart. I want to come in. I want to settle into a booth with you, and for the two of us to share breakfast, lunch, and dinner together. That’s the relationship I want with you. And that is why I stand at the door and knock.” Only I would think of a cozier place for this than Starbucks. I read or heard somewhere that eating together in that culture took on a more intimate meaning. Other posters might know more about this. So what do you say Mike? https://openthebible.org/article/christ-lives-in-me-is-good-news/

Thanks Mike.... for acknowledging my post. You "passed the test." Steps to take to further discussion. Read one another's post. Don't read into it. The post says what it means.... and means what it says. Two-way communication opens doors for understanding. No need to be defensive or evasive. We are simply communicating. Facts and opinions are exchanged with view towards better understanding. As per Will Roger's quote: "Everyone is ignorant, just on different subjects." Healthy discussion and vibrant debate is in the DNA of the fabric of society. Personal attacks are not welcomed.... but healthy discussion is. There is learning whenever two opposing viewpoints collide. Some of our greatest inventions and theories were garnered by vigorous discussions. Have a great day, Mike.

That is not true.

Keying off of this post by Charity, as well as Skyrider's clear calling out of Mike's chronic anti-social conduct on GSC, and my ongoing curiosity (for which I am immensely thankful) which causes me to learn things... I opened an email today (not spam, I joined this list consciously) I learned about this book written by genuine social neuroscientists, The great thing about seeing it on the Princeton University Press website is the fact I can obtain my own hardcopy of the book for 75% off. If anyone (T-Bone perhaps) wants to do the same, use the code FEB75 at checkout. Before I took the bait, I asked amazon to send me a sample of the kindle version. Here's a key excerpt: 1.1 The Evolution of Social Behaviors Our journey begins with the question of how did social behaviors evolve? Social behaviors can be classified according to the fitness consequences for the actor and its social partners. Four types of social behaviors that are found in species ranging from bacteria to humans are:2 (1) mutual benefit—a social behavior that benefits all involved in the interaction; (2) selfishness—a behavior that benefits the actor at the expense of the other(s) involved in the interaction; (3) altruism—a behavior that is costly for the actor but that benefits other(s); and (4) spite—a behavior that is costly for the actor and the other(s). (emphasis mine) Cacioppo, Stephanie; Cacioppo, John T. (2020-08-10T22:58:59.000). Introduction to Social Neuroscience . Princeton University Press. Kindle Edition. All of the above spurs me to ask myself: what does Mike get out of his provocative conduct on GSC. At this point, I can only imagine.

BS. Trying to change topics, which you do most anytime you can't back up what wierwille says. We do differ on attitudes towards scripture because I respect what is written without using a bunch of cherrypicked definitions and such from the nearest concordance. Tools? How about holy spirit and relying on Christ/God as noted in scripture. 1 John 2:27 “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

*scratches scalp*

Mike, It was God's plan to use the example of a body to show Christ's relationship with us - Christ is the head and you are a member. Why did God do this? What did He want to teach us about Christ? Question: When your hand accidentally touches a hot flying pan, why do you jerk your hand away? Answer: When we feel pain, such as when we touch a hot stove, sensory receptors in our skin send a message via nerve fibers (A-delta fibers and C fibers) to the spinal cord and brain stem and then onto the brain where the sensation of pain is registered, the information is processed and the pain is perceived. Once the brain has received and interpreted the pain message, it coordinates an appropriate response. The brain can send a signal back to the spinal cord and nerves to increase or decrease the severity of pain. For example, the brain can signal the release of natural painkillers known as endorphins. It's how a body works! https://mydr.com.au/pain/pain-and-how-you-sense-it/ https://www.nva.org/learnpatient/how-we-feel-pain/