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What a horrible idea – I love it! You’re on your own to verify where in the PFAL class wierwille says that – I know where he says it...it's funny - I usually have a better recollection of what wierwille said or wrote than you do - BUT to play your silly game I’ve found something even better in written form – this is even more outrageous than what he says in the PFAL class …On page 7 of the PFAL book is wierwille’s written version of handling Matthew 22:37, 38 - first he quotes the passages and then makes some vague comments: Matthew 22:37, 38: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. If that is the first and great commandment, then what is the first and great sin? By simple logic breaking the first and great commandment of not loving God – of loving something ahead of God – hewing out our own religious systems, our own ideologies, our own thinking patterns – rather than adhering to the divine revelation of God’s wonderful, matchless Word. End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ The first thing that should catch the attention of anyone familiar with this account is that wierwille does NOT include verses 39 and 40 which locks in how the first and great commandment is to be interpreted. Instead wierwille offers his own interpretation which proposes merely a subjective reference to one’s own idea of what loving God means. In my 12 years of being indoctrinated by wierwille et al, I can attest to the fact that wierwille has indeed hewn out his own religious system, his own ideology his own thinking patterns – rather than adhering to what’s written in the divine revelation of the Bible. What?!?! T-Bone, how can you say that? It’s easy, I lick my lips and I’m real natural – then I read the rest of Jesus’ discussion with the lawyer…here you go Bible fans: 34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. 35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matthew 22 KJV ~ ~ ~ ~ Basically, what Jesus explains is that the law and the prophets give detailed concrete directions – in no uncertain terms – avoiding any abstract thought that could dilute or rationalize to find loopholes. For example, here’s a few from Exodus 20 - the 10 commandments : don’t lie, don’t steal, don’t commit adultery, don’t covet…These are some of the specific ways you honor God and act out of real love for God and neighbor if you DON’T do such things as that. Note excerpts from various commentaries on verse 40 ( excerpts from Matthew 22:40 Commentaries_Bible Hub ): Elicott's Commentary for English Readers (40) All the law and the prophets.—The words are coupled, as in Matthew 5:17; Matthew 7:12, to indicate the whole of the revelation of the divine will in the Old Testament. The two great commandments lay at the root of all. ~ ~ ~ ~ Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary 22:34-40 An interpreter of the law asked our Lord a question, to try, not so much his knowledge, as his judgment. The love of God is the first and great commandment, and the sum of all the commands of the first table. Our love of God must be sincere, not in word and tongue only. All our love is too little to bestow upon him, therefore all the powers of the soul must be engaged for him, and carried out toward him. To love our neighbour as ourselves, is the second great commandment. There is a self-love which is corrupt, and the root of the greatest sins, and it must be put off and mortified; but there is a self-love which is the rule of the greatest duty: we must have a due concern for the welfare of our own souls and bodies. And we must love our neighbour as truly and sincerely as we love ourselves; in many cases we must deny ourselves for the good of others. ~ ~ ~ ~ Matthew Poole's Commentary And the second is like unto it, commanding love also; so that, as the apostle saith, love is the fulfilling of the law. Thy neighbour, that is, every man, as thyself; doing as much for him as thou wouldst have him do for thee, and doing no more against him than thou wouldst willingly he should do against thee: as truly and sincerely as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets: there is nothing commanded in all the Old Testament but may be reduced to these two heads. This is the whole duty of man there commanded. The whole book of God is our rule, and we are obliged to every precept in it. Moses summed up all in the ten commandments, to which, truly interpreted, all the precepts of Scripture are reducible. Christ here brings the ten to two. The apostle brings all to one, telling us love is the fulfilling of the law. There is nothing forbidden in Scripture but what offends the royal law of love, either to God or man; there is nothing commanded but what will fall under it. Mark addeth, that the scribe applauds our Saviour, as having said the truth, and confessing that the fulfilling these two precepts was more than all sacrifices and burnt offerings; in which he agreed with Samuel, who long since told Saul that to obey was better than sacrifice; and it needs must be so, seeing that all the true value of sacrifices lay in the obedience by them given to the will of God. Christ tells the scribe he was not far from the kingdom of God. He who once rightly understands the law of God, and hath cast off that silly fancy of thinking to please God with ritual things, hath made a great proficiency under that schoolmaster, who, if rightly understood, will show him the need of another righteousness than his own wherein to appear before God. ~ ~ ~ ~ Expositor's Greek Testament Matthew 22:40. ὁ. ὁ νόμος κρέμαται. Jesus winds up by declaring that on these two hangs, is suspended, the whole law, also the prophets = the moral drift of the whole O. T. is love; no law or performance of law of any value save as love is the soul of it. So Jesus soars away far above the petty disputes of the schools about the relative worth of isolated precepts; teaching the organic unity of duty. ~ ~ ~ ~ Pulpit Commentary Verse 40. - Hang all the Law and the prophets; i.e. all Scripture, which is comprised in these terms (comp. Matthew 5:17; Matthew 7:12); in other words, all the revelations which God has made to man in every age. The clause is peculiar to St. Matthew. It signifies that on love of God and love of man depend all the moral and religious, ceremonial and judicial precepts contained in the Law, all the utterances of the prophets, all the voices of history. Scripture enunciates the duty to God and our neighbour, shows the right method of fulfilling it, warns against the breach of it, gives examples of punishment and reward consequent upon the way in which the obligation has been treated. Thus the unity and integrity of revelation is demonstrated. Its Author is one; its design is uniform; it teaches one path, leading to one great end. Matthew 22:40 ~ ~ ~ ~ End of excerpts from commentaries on Matthew 22:40 ~ ~ ~ ~ Unlike phonies like wierwille who could talk a good walk but never walked the talk – being the hypocrite that he was - John the Baptist called people to more than talking a good walk or ritual – he told them to change their behavior: 7 But when he saw many Pharisees and Sadducees coming to watch him baptize, he denounced them. “You brood of snakes!” he exclaimed. “Who warned you to flee the coming wrath? 8 Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God. 9 Don’t just say to each other, ‘We’re safe, for we are descendants of Abraham.’ That means nothing, for I tell you, God can create children of Abraham from these very stones. 10 Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 3 NLT Several other translations reflect this same idea; God who knows us and sees us - even in moments when we think no one is watching and no one will know – looks beyond our words and religious activities that may fool others – God sees if our conduct backs up what we profess – He judges our words by the actions that accompany them: New International Version Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. New American Standard Bible Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance; Amplified Bible So produce fruit that is consistent with repentance [demonstrating new behavior that proves a change of heart, and a conscious decision to turn away from sin]; New American Bible Produce good fruit as evidence of your repentance. ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike, in case you ever wonder why your sales campaign for PFAL and PFAL Today are in a slump, I’ll give you some honest feedback – since I have no dog in this fight of yours. You come across as a gung-ho sales rep who is unfamiliar with the very product you are peddling…but who knows - for you to say of wierwille’s statement as long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please – “I don't think that is in Session One at all, or anywhere in the class” may be a sign you are in denial of being a fervent admirer of a hypocritical pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult-leader who is dead. Currently your idol remains idle in the ground of unholy grounds at The Way International.

Good advice. If I ever write a history of Jack The Ripper, I'll be sure to paint him as a real swell guy.

The "I" statements are fine. No problem. The "us" and "we" statements add ambiguity to her post. Sure, we all did things we should not have done as way corps. Broad-brush statement and all. "But it was justified"..... why does MarieP think it was justified because of righteous anger. It was NOT justified according to Scripture. Who went around justifying all their actions by "righteous anger?" I can't name one corps person who did this time and time again. I'm simply clarifying my experience as opposed to hers. What she claims as opposed to giving specificity to her claims.... I simply contest the "we" part.

Holy $hit, Batman - the Joker forgot a key element in the first session of PFAL !!!!! You know old chum, he was always chiding us for missing stuff in PFAL - lo and behold it's happening to him! first session of PFAL wonder if they covered it in PFAL Today. oh now you remember! figures you'd love it - the principle is self-referential - wierwille twisted around another way too - ANYTHING DONE IN THE LOVE OF GOD IS OKAY..."as long as you love God" = "anything done in the love of God" = assume you love God...it is totally divorced from some clearly stated directives - like the 10 commandments = thou shalt not steal, lie, commit adultery. no thanks - you can though - it's a free country.

Rationalization. Wrong is wrong...faithful in least faithful in much.

The history has been and is being written right here in these threads.

Ok...gonna do some whitewashing eh?

I don't recall a time when he DIDN'T push this idea, starting very early in PFAL. He rephrased it many different ways and used it as a way to say the 10 commandments didn't apply to the Grace Administration. (They're for spiritual sissies.)

Could that be because we were actively discouraged from doing so? Were you paying attention? Maybe you've just forgotten that part. It's alright. Lots of old grads have, too.

Easily one of the most intellectually and spiritually dishonest phrases ever uttered by a human being.

This is the last paragraph in twi’s article. “We have seen some of the Greek athletic terminology that God used to describe our walk as His children. Just like the athletes who competed in the Greek games or the figure skaters of today who train and compete physically, we choose to compete spiritually as God’s children. We train ourselves to exercise self-control mentally and physically, focusing our actions on those things that help us to obtain heavenly rewards. We press toward the finish line, striving to win in the spiritual competition. We are spiritual athletes for God.” There is nothing in the 5 verses that say we are competing like an athlete. Looking again at “I Corinthians 9:24:Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain,” in an athletic race, the athlete is the only one to receive a prize. However, we as Christians are not competing against each other but are striving together so we each can obtain the prize. As for the last sentence in the article, I agree with what OldSkool posted when he showed twi’s website for it: “I thought I would put this out here once again, if for no other reason to bring the truth to light once more that Christians are not athletes of the spirit and it's a fraudulent idea that wierwille forced into scripture and rammed through the research department back in the 80s.” Thanks OldSkool for starting this thread.

It plainly does not say that. Viewing scripture through the collaterals isn't what I'm talking about. But who cares at this point...do what u do.

Only victor is allowed whimsical, arbitrary, nonsensical interpretations, but that’s it! No one else! Rely not on your own understanding. Rely only on victor’s. Are you a doctor? Didn't think so. Shut up and absorb. Let the intellectual and spiritual anesthesia wash over you like a warm bath. (Pay no attention to the floating dead baby.)

"If you ever have a question, write: The Teacher P.O. Box 347 ............."

Even though Saint Vic had his own private interpretation of the bible? Witness what happened to the adultery paper. Witness Penworks book illuminating how Saint Vic used the bible to back up whatever principle he wanted to use to control the masses. No private interpretation. Yah, sure. That's why Saint Vic said,"I know there's a manuscript out there somewhere supporting this, we just haven't found it."

I think it is most likely that this is incorrect. HOWEVER, it's not outside the realm of possibility. The simplest explanation is that this verse says exactly what it means and there's nothing confusing about it. Less simple, but still plausible, is that it's referring to the willingness of unbelievers to see Paul's point rather than the ability. In that case it's just either careless writing or something that gets lost in translation. Whatever way you look at it, "magic decoder ring" or no, it is absolutely a clear case of shifting the focus of the discussion from the subject matter to the people engaged in the discussion.

I guess I find it interesting that after a good period of time we have more communication speculating the intent and boundaries surrounding what she was saying rather than interaction and clarification and the exchange of ideas to promote community growth. While I can and do examine my past, admit my mistakes and have left an abusive system to not get looped in to an abused/abuser cycle, including admitting error just being in the group, what profit is a drive by with an emotional dump for the entire body of Christ? So I completely disagree. While the initial elements contained some emotional awareness, GSC also is not a garbage dump for waylaid regret. The lack of reconnecting and continuing a discussion you started is not emotional intelligence. It is using others for an emotional release and a dumping ground. I hope MarieP and spouse get past this and talk more about their perceived culpability and its sources. To me that is the only way to emotional intelligence. If not then Marie thanks for the observations I will and already have considered and worked it into my views and consideration. Best wishes finding peace with your past, present and future.

Oh Twinky that’s tough to think about. I’ve never had to put a cat down - but having adopted rescued dogs we have gone through the agony of is it time? when we see them having issues in their older years. The vets we go to are really sensitive to both our needs / bond and that of our fur-mate. As with humans we should think about their quality of life too. It’s a tough call . It’s funny how there is such a bond - and even when they’re gone. Tonto and I on occasion will recall something odd, distinctive or tender about any of the dearly departed paws - they still live in our memories.

Absolutely, Charity. We became conditioned to check out Greek and other words, to get a better perspective, to understand nuances, etc. La la la. Waste of time, mostly. Just read what's written. When I first started reading a Bible again (after years of misery) I couldn't read AV (=what you call KJV). My mind would leap to TWI "expoundings" and go off on tracks that weren't helpful. I find it much more helpful to read different versions - any version, really, because those "tramlines" don't operate the same. The more modern English versions are often better for just reading. Epistles and gospels were written in then-contemporary language, not in any fancy historic words; I believe they should be read in good now-contemporary English (or whatever one's first-choice language is - French, Spanish, Bantu...) so as to keep the freshness alive. Actually somebody gave me The Message - so "contemporary" that I couldn't quite grasp parts of it and had to check in other versions! LOL! The Message isn't my current choice but it was helpful then. Reading in context is vital, and it's helpful to check out references to OT situations and context, where a verse has been quoted in a NT passage.

Yes valid point. Sometimes when people really share a lot with a group of people over the next days they are ashamed of doing so and so disconnect subconsciously. MarieP showed up as many have in the past a singular call to examine our own morals and past. If this was a genuine connection then it will not be a drive by. If it is not then hopefully that dump will give her some peace somewhere. I would also challenge MarieP and her husband to consider this. No matter what people did to hurt you and no matter what you did, it was all due to the system of error set up by an adultering plagiarist who twisted scripture and started a cult that trapped many and robbed them of the abundant life. The only way to end a cycle of continuous abuse is to call it out until it is no longer hidden to the people affected.

Some great points – thought about that a bunch…harboring guilt…godly sorrow…in the mishmash of internal conflict I experience on and off – I don’t let myself get too wrapped up in it – I figure it’s stuff I’ll be sorting out for the remainder of the journey in this life…not to get into comparisons to belittle my fervency for promoting TWI, but I think about what inner turmoil Paul probably had in the harboring guilt / godly sorrow conflict: 9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed… I Corinthians 15 One of the biggest reasons why I keep coming to Grease Spot to share my experiences, observations and feelings is to soothe this mysterious personal discomfort – and I think it must be over that harboring guilt / godly sorrow conflict – what a battle it can be sometimes…do I really believe God has forgiven me for my zealous cult-years of financially supporting and faithfully serving a harmful and controlling cult? Maybe that doubt fuels my let-me-try-to-make-it-up-to-you routine. I’ve always had this reciprocal thing about life – a desire to compensate for negligence on my part or how I treated someone unfairly. We seek meaning in life. When I served in TWI, I had this blinkered view that I had only one great purpose in life – to serve God through The Way International. After I left TWI, I became aware there’s more to life than being stuck in a rut as a sales rep for a cult. I’m a multipurpose kind of guy now! I need my wife and kids and they need me. I need my neighborhood and they need me. I need Grease Spot and Grease Spot needs me. I found this funny demotivator poster years ago – so I ordered a small framed version – and it hangs on the wall above my desk. I reminds me of one of the many reasons why I post here:

I finally began reading this article. It has been a slow start because I suspect the writer is deeply biased. But I am reading it slowly. It's all very slow and gentle. A gentle reading. I just finished reading the word "run." If only I had more time. If only the flurry of posts... well, if they would just stop! It's hard to keep up. Slowly. A gentle keeping up. Like I said, I have made great, if slow, progress in my gentle reading. All I have to say thus far is Yikes! So biased! I wish the article could have been written from an unvarnished perspective. Oh well. Until that day, I'll keep this article in a folder. One question: How are we suppose to run if we are to stand above all. It seems like a contradiction, albeit a gentle one. If you're standing, you can't very well run. And if you're running, you've obviously stopped standing, even if the running is very, very, very slow.

When religious or cult leaders walk in craftiness, they are also handling the word of God deceitfully. How often have we seen this? The Pharisees were known for their double-standards..... doing one thing in public, yet privately doing another. Open rebuke at the pulpit, yet sinning in the privacy of their own lives. Why does this deception escape one's discernment? Could it be that adulation and/or idolization has impaired this discernment? How could clergy and corps grads follow Rosalie's leadership for 17 years after Martindale's ouster? It nearly boggles the mind to see how many years it takes to untangle the web of lies and cult indoctrination once it takes hold. This indoctrination is cancerous. And, true to form... it always seems to follow the same patterns. The religious/cult leader likes to KEEP THE SPOTLIGHT ON YOU.... while s/he hides in the shadows. They like to keep on the offense.... reframing the Scriptures to impose fear, guilt and confusion. That's why their sermons become dead, because there is no living epistle to speak of. They have succumbed to "deadness" inside. I find it intriguing that a drive-by poster tells us how s/he took a "long hard look at herself/himself" and wanted to start this conversation. Yet, several days later.... no reply. Was this person serious? What did we learn about MarieP that would give her credibility in this area? Nothing more forthcoming? Crickets.

My short time on the cabinet and my short run on staff I never saw any efforts to reform, only cover while giving the appearance of reform. I heard Rosalie say on several occasions when it comes to confidential matters (and what isnt confidential with them) "just let them go ahead and speculate" --- which indicates they are fine with people drawing their own conclusions and most people conclude that there was a big reform movement afoot to undo what martindale alone caused. Thats what they wanted people to assume....but there was NEVER a true heart of repentance and never a true heart of change....only whitewash and preservation of what survived the whitewash.

I disagree. Maybe some corps treated people the way they were trained.... but I would venture to say that 85-90% of the corps did NOT do that. You have to acknowledge that our corps training was over-the-top confrontational and obedient training. I highly doubt whether this "style" of leadership was effective on the field. In fact, we were warned to NOT use these tactics on believers. THIS WAS TRAINING.... not a how-to hand guide for running fellowship. In my experience, those who applied these hard-hitting tactics might rise to the region coordinator level.... where they are tasked with "keeping the coal shoveled into the locomotive engines" of each limb in their region. In other words, most all their confrontation was leveled at limb coordinators. With all the levels of subordination and activity, a hard-nosed leader could justify his confrontations in a number of ways. Sure, there were instances of abusive leaders, and those who committed such acts should seek or have sought forgiveness. But I have come to believe that there were a number of narcissists who liked this power over others and have little or no empathy for the abuse they caused. Whereas, those who sit in seats of power at headquarters were culpable of this abuse as well. Wierwille could do his on-stage "you're the best" routine, but behind the scenes he wielded the power over the corps training. He signed off on these tactics. It is known here at GSC that wierwille was the instigator behind TFI (Total Fitness Institute), the super-charged LEAD training in California (TFI, the predecessor of LEAD). Corps were put in large refrigerator boxes late at night to simulate a POW-scenario... where loud music was blared and provocateurs beat on the sides of these boxes with clubs. Martindale tried to lead a revolt and failed miserably. Maybe, that's where these early corps coordinators came up with abuse tactics. One one occasion in the 9th/7th corps training, George Hendley the corps coordinator felt it a need to summon all corps on a Sunday evening to put on their corps sweats and meet him in the back 40. George was an old football jock who prided himself on his discipline to calisthenics. So, when we gathered he had each branch assembled together and doing basic jumping jacks, push-ups, leg-lifts, etc. (anyone who played football knows these exercises). Well, the more we ran-in-place.... the soft soil oozed with a muddy patch of glob. As we did push-ups, the girls started complaining that their hair was getting all muddy. The situation continued to escalate for another 40 minutes or so.... with confrontations leveled at certain branch leaders. When it all ended, many of us ran back to our dorm showers and just stepped into those showers with sweats and all to wash away the mud and another confrontation episode. All of this definitely had aspects of the Stanford Prison Experiment in years to come, but the majority of corps fell on the side of the abused. So, you are correct that some corps imitated the corps training tactics.... but it is incorrect to implicate the majority. Some of us knew all-too-well how it felt to be the recipient of scathing confrontation and we didn't like or justify it one bit.

Here's another thing we may not have grasped fully in twi: paradox. Two or more contradictory things might both be true at the same time. In my 60s, I can see how I have some wisdom I didn't have, especially between the ages of 19 and 31. We submitted ourselves (at least I did) to someone I now believe was teaching things by word and deed which were wrong a lot. How and why did I obtain such wisdom, if I did at all? I think of Romans 5. "we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Suffering? In the Gospel of John, doesn't Jesus tell us that in this world we will have trouble. Pressure? Stress? Make mistakes perhaps? (Many of them). But in Him we can have comfort and peace. Going through such experiences produces, if we are humble, a depth of understanding (including to correct our "path" or conduct) and wisdom. Wisdom comes by making mistakes and learning from them... rather than steadfastly believing we weren't on the wrong path to begin with, perhaps. Yeah, I use the word perhaps quite a bit. I'm not as certain about things now as I was 40 years ago.

In 2 Tim 2:3-6, Paul uses 3 metaphors back to back – 1) a good soldier of Jesus Christ, 2) a man who strives is crowned only if he strives lawfully (athletic metaphor) and 3) a husbandman that laboureth. What’s interesting is what he uses each metaphor to teach in the following verses. 1) When talking about the armour of God in Ephesians 6, Paul uses this metaphor to explain how we are to “stand against the wiles of the devil” and “having done all, to stand.” 2) When Paul uses the metaphor of running in a race, the article points out that the context is receiving rewards at the Bema. · 1 Cor 9:24 - but one receiveth the prize and verse 25 - Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible · Phil 2:16 - that I may rejoice in the day of Christ · Phil 3:13,14 - I press toward the mark for the prize 3) Paul writes about “The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.” Why Paul used these particular metaphors to teach these particular truths is something to consider.

Yes, pound sand. I took the same path and refused to harbor any guilt whatsoever. My heart was right with God and I claimed it.

Well my observations are the “second thoughts” of VP had more to do with the extremity of LCMs antics than actual scripture concerns. “The ministry is the Word and the word is the ministry”. VPW And yes you bury your head in the sand when sexual immorality is brought up as a topic.

Did you get to the part in Undertow that relates how DETERMINED wierwille was in wanting the research Dept. Mistranslate the Greek text? Had nothing to do with it being a figure of speech!

For some reason, I thought AoS was good at the time. That ole Waybrain! I had the video. Started to watch it some decades later. (Note: "started" - didn't finish it.) It burned quite well in the woodburner.

Don't jump on Mike. I think this was one of his better posts. Short, to the point, just reporting what he heard John Lynn say.

Yes it’s been like two decades and I still see “men in tights” images when reading Olympic athlete type terms in scripture. Due to that trauma I’m a little more focused on the agriculture references and imagery currently. I do enter into 5k races locally occasionally. There is a Thanksgiving one I have run with my kids. How that usually goes is I see all sorts of people passing me - kids, dogs, old people in wheelchairs, guys on crutches, etc. I run in a race but the one receiving the prize is usually a high school or college distance runner in a program. I don’t have to chase a clump of dirt to plant something in.

So you think a large production largely featuring devil spirit costumes where the lead in tights is having an illicit affair with the head “seed of the serpent” who happens to be a hot chick to “loosen up in that category” as directly instructed by his “father in the Word” was too much?

I hear you sky. To me it is somewhat of a delicate balance. I had and have a genuine desire to live as a Christian with Jesus Christ as Lord not as a bobble head on the dashboard I can manipulate. The Way’s version of that reality is a “lifetime of Christian service” as a label, but the details of that are becoming a yes-man to Pharisees who make policy to make life easier for themselves and harder for those that follow them. And to tiptoe around in fear of saying anything critical for fear of excommunication. That is not a lifetime of Christian service. That is a lifetime of Pharisee service and self service. So the dilemma here is a genuine young soul and a corrupt system. How do I resolve those two ? Human nature is to make up a story where I am a hero. Whether true or not. But the truth of the matter is the corrupt system hurt and enslaved many. And I was “sold out” to the system and didn’t really consider that some people would bait and switch my genuine desire to replace with absolute compliance to “the system”. One analogy has been the role of a prison guard. These roles can be assumed very quickly as the Stanford prison experiment showed. The Way Corps was a larger scale Stanford Prison Experiment that produces a new set of prison guards every year, helping to perpetuate the prison experiment lifestyle. A ruling class and a governed class. Both classes constructed on blind obedience and trust. This is a recipe for a cult. The pattern can get really bad like the Heavens Gate group and the Jonestown group. In TWI sometimes you had benevolent prison guards who treated the prisoners well. With my genuine heart and desire I fulfilled that pattern most of the time. But I was bound to follow orders and beat the prisoners other times. So do I want to invent a history where I was the hero to myself and everyone around me? I don’t. I feel that would be lying to myself and everyone around. I would rather try and view from an objective perspective and highlight the scam that started the prison experiment. Was God there through it all? Yes always. Did I see His hand in my life in the midst of this? Yes. To me to be true to God I tell the truth now. Thankfully my family hasn’t shunned me and I am able to rebuild some bridges. That’s not true for others who were victims of shunning and whose families are entangled still. These are very real ongoing problems. The gap between the whole body of Christ functioning together and a bunch of Pharisees isolating a “household of God” subject to lock step compliance is huge. To me telling the truth is more important than my ego to reinvent the path I traveled. Let me be an average Christian in an average church doing average good works over being some hot shot who posts his resume on the net about how they saved the world through the greatness of their “yes ma’am”. We did a fair amount of good for people and their lives while in. We helped many navigate the policy waters of their insane approach to debt helping the best we could. We protected the flock from evil intentions of overseers. We tried our best to genuinely help them. As Stanford prison guards. Not some anointed version of a fake clergy with a golden calf VP statue and an oversized ego. Not saying that is you sky. You have a genuine heart to help others and serve. Your insights are articulate and balanced. You help a lot of people here. I’m sure you helped people you led also in TWI. So did I and yes I have memories of some great snapshots that God helped energize when I was in also. Just trying to tell the truth and catalyze more freedom for myself and others. And the truth about TWI is to look at the putrid fruit brought about by their Pharisee systems and activities. I would rather have one day of freedom than 10 years of recognition of being a really important person in a prison experiment.

It's actually not a bad article - but it's ruined by the pseudo-intellectualism of stuffing in assorted Greek words, which in context add absolutely nothing to the article. If they were removed, the article wouldn't be any the worse off. And they can't resist sticking their own special interpretation on the Greek words they pull up: see - "The first word that stands out to us is “run,” which is translated from the Greek word trechō. This word literally means to run, but metaphorically it indicates exerting oneself, to strive hard, or to spend one’s strength in performing or attaining something." Yes, that's as may be, but the whole thing is: "We know something a bit better than [someone else]." Paul said, he was all things to all men. He could talk in athletic terms to those with an athletic bent, or where it suited the context and climate of the times. In other places, he talked of putting on armour - to talk, perhaps, to a different group of people. Agricultural and husbandry references abound throughout the Bible, and doubtless Paul used many to expound to those who most understood agriculture. And so we too must explain, or use as a springboard, the imagery and terms that would most reach those with whom we want to share the Good News. Maybe we would talk in terms of athletics, or military, or gardening - or in terms of writing the best computer program (knowing what you/your customer wants, and how to achieve that efficiently), or how to make a perfect cake (follow the rules for success) or playing a musical instrument (needs diligence and practice, you may even need to learn a new language). To over-focus on one metaphor is to minimise the topic and to cut down on outreach. And please don't remind me any more of AoS. Ugh!

This is the case for me seeing that Im an eyewitness of the white washing and such that went into hyper drive with theh Allen lawsuit and ensuing coverup. It seems many of us here were exposed to a lot of evils first hand and to expose it is how not to be culpable. Then theres the fact that becoming overly-judgemental of my own life is something I learned in the way international. So, obviously, I tossed that idea after leaving TWI to my own detriment. We should take heed to ourselves that we stand or fall but we don't even have the right to judge ourselves because we are bought with a price and our lives are not our own. Cool stuff everyone.

This conversation on introspection and self-examination is a healthy endeavor to explore. Whether philosophically or spiritually, one is benefited greatly by this exercise to uncover the hidden things of darkness. Some things remain hidden in our lives until the passage of time. Without being overly-judgmental of our own lives, could it be that God has us on "the right path" even though we lament our tenure in twi? Could it be that until the passage of time, we were unable to receive, discern or examine the effects of standing before God without going through some "trials and tribulations" of our own? In reading the Church Epistles, I find that the Apostle Paul gives us large sweeping swaths of truth regarding 1) Legalism and 2) Liberty. On one side of the ledger, legalism in adherence to the law does not warrant one's own righteousness before God. Even with his bloodline and high credentials (a Pharisee of the Pharisees and as touching the law, blameless), Paul fell short of the righteousness given from God by faith. For indeed, it was in the power of Christ's resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings that opened doors of grace and mercy. On the other side is Liberty in Christ. Can one use this liberty as a license to sin? No, because in this liberty one might inflict harm on another believer by being a stumbling block to his faith. One is not to flaunt this liberty or be puffed up against another. Life in Christ must be in moderation else the trappings of the flesh, lusts and lasciviousness surface from the hidden darkness attempt to overtake this man or woman in their folly. Even though I was involved in twi for 20+ years.... there were several years (ie -- "fog years") that twi-activity was crawling along and we were raising our boys. During those times, we were engaged in life's simple activities and family time. Walks in the park, swing sets, slides, swimming pools, hugs and laughter .... living life. Other times, as years passed.... I think about fun activities with the believers. Snow skiing in Canada, hockey games, volleyball, basketball, movies, barbeques, etc..... enjoying the fellowship of others. So, when I approach this examination of "hurting others via twi-policies".... I try to give it some perspective through my years of involvement with twi. So, with some deeper perspective..... maybe we shouldn't beat ourselves up with a few missteps or zealousness to "do good." Maybe, just maybe.... our tenure in twi has given us greater insight of youthful exuberance carried away by bad counsel. Could it have happened under another Christian organization or business endeavor? Probably. Look how much we gained through our experiences. As Rocky and others like to always point out.... you and I wouldn't be able to help others with insight and guidance had we not taken this pathway in life. We are the sum total of our experiences. Peace to all.

Hi MarieP and Annio and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and hearts, I was never in the corps but was in twi for 12 years. During that time I went wow (1974-1975), took the advanced class and led both adult and children fellowships. I too taught the law of believing and the great principle about how we operate the spirit of God. I spoke of what Jesus accomplished for us but failed to speak of the joy and power that having an actual relationship with Christ brings (because I didn't even know about it myself). My greatest regret is for all the hurting people I talked with and my main answer to their pain was to take pfal. I did not love them with the love of God. I’d faithfully share John 10:10 with them but not Luke 4:18 where Jesus defines the abundant life he came to give to people. I had more faith in a class than I had in the spirit of God working in me to minister to someone’s needs. I've confessed to God of how sad and feeble of a Christian I was to them. I think it speaks of your relationship with God, Annio, that you were able to show compassion for the abusers and forgive them. I wonder though, why it is often harder for us to accept God’s forgiveness for ourselves? Understanding the role I played in what went on around me in twi and sorting through my feelings about the role leadership played in messing things up spiritually is important to do. But when I consciously or subconsciously added into this mix past traumas and insecurities I had before I even knew of twi, figuring things out became more complicated and confusing. One last thing, if at times who I thought I was and what I thought I had while in twi was based on following man made doctrine and not the truth of God’s Word, realizing the worthlessness of it all was a hard pill to swallow. So was the realization that the “issues” from my past which I thought were gone had really only been covered over because a cult like twi cannot bring deliverance nor healing. It’s all been a lot to deal with but for me the answer has been to go back to Luke 4:18 and get to know Christ personally so he can be the one to teach me and heal my broken heart and deliver me from captivity and open my eyes to the truth and set me at liberty from my shattered life. This is the process that Christ wants to continue working on with me and it has been the most effective and rewarding. Being on GSC was where it all started for me. I hope you both will continue to post as well.

Beautifully articulated.